Why don't the Tuatha'an resemble the Aiel?

[PsyQuestor]

So much has been made of the height and coloring of the Aiel and oft remarked that Rand has the appearance of the Aiel; but what of the Tuatha'an? Why do these folks not resemble the Aiel?

 

Is it perhaps that so much is made of their colorful dress and the ways of the leaf, that the other physical qualities are overlooked?

[David Selig]

The Aiel in the Waste stayed insular, the Tuatha'an didn't.

 

Over the 3000 years since they split from the Aiel, the Tuatha'an had many, many people who've been converted to believe into the Way of the Leaf join them, most of which probably married other Tuatha'an. Fair hair and blue eyes are recessive, so it's logical that over such a long period they've mostly disappaered among the Tuatha'an.

[jsbrads]

why aren't the tuatha'an considered the Aeil after the Jenn disapeared.

 

In glass pillars, the male aes sedai begged them to forget all else, but never give up way of leaf, so Tuathaan abandoning the trees, objects of power, etc. should be inconsequential visa a vi the violation of violence (note: no historical references a violation to marry out)

[Durinax]

the tuathaan abandoned their duty to run off and try and find a song. thus the Aiel do not consider them dedicated (as per the other aiel continued trying to do as charged, find a safe place for the objects and tree)

[Luckers]

Yes, the Aiel dedicated themselves in service to the Aes Sedai. The Tuatha'an betrayed that service. It was also likely a shame thing. They made the concious choice to abandon the Covenant. The Aiel who left the Way, initially, did it almost by mistake. They therefore tried to cling to being Aiel--no swords, covering their faces.

[Mystica]

The Jenn Aiel were the remainder of the AOL Aiel: dedicated to both the Way of the Leaf as well as to the service of the Aes Sedai by protecting the items placed in their care. They are the True Dedicated because they stayed faithful to the full extend of their purpose.

 

The Tuatha'an were the first to split off, by their own choice. Interpreting the edict of the Aes Sedai to 'forget everything else but never stray from the Way' as confirmation that the protection of the items was inferior to the Way of the Leaf. For them, the Way and the Song were inevitably linked together and they had lost the Song. So they set out to find the Song in order to restore that part of them that they had lost. They are no less dedicated in their goal than the Jenn Aiel were, but the Jenn were torn apart between the contradictions of their obligations.

 

The Aiel were banned from the Jenn Aiel rather than choose to split off themselves. It was not their intention to break off but they are the ones that found it too difficult to stick to the Way of the Leaf, the absolute core essence of the Jenn Aiel. The Jenn also denounced them as Aiel, but they refused to accept that and continued to call themselves Aiel. That is when the original Aiel gained the name Jenn Aiel or True Aiel (= true dedicated). The Aiel are no less or more dedicated than the Jenn or the Tinkers, but they too choose to focuss on a different part of the obligations: protect and safeguard the items of the Aes Sedai. Which they have done all those years by protecting Rhuidean as a holy place.

 

 

So it is not so much that one group is less dedicated than another. It's more a matter on where their focuss point lays. Yes, the Aiel have adopted elements to continuous link them to their origins, but that doesn't change the fact that they 'do' engage in violent acts. Which is an absolute abomination in the eyes of any AOL Aiel. This pov still reigns supreme among the Tinkers, eventhough they have abandonned the items placed in their care. In 'their' eyes, keeping the Way of the Leaf supercedes anything else. Including the protection of Aes Sedai or their items. Which was confirmed by the Aes Sedai themselves when they told them never to forget the Way.

 

 

So in essence, the Tinkers and the Aiel both are two sides of the same coin. A coin that has been split, and therefore neither side is as valuable (or as pure) as the original. But they are both needed in order to restore the original.

[Lacanos]

The Jenn Aiel were the remainder of the AOL Aiel: dedicated to both the Way of the Leaf as well as to the service of the Aes Sedai by protecting the items placed in their care. They are the True Dedicated because they stayed faithful to the full extend of their purpose.

 

The Tuatha'an were the first to split off, by their own choice. Interpreting the edict of the Aes Sedai to 'forget everything else but never stray from the Way' as confirmation that the protection of the items was inferior to the Way of the Leaf. For them, the Way and the Song were inevitably linked together and they had lost the Song. So they set out to find the Song in order to restore that part of them that they had lost. They are no less dedicated in their goal than the Jenn Aiel were, but the Jenn were torn apart between the contradictions of their obligations.

 

Sorry, but this is garbage. You're actually making things up.

 

Luckers wrote a long thread a couple of... must've been years back now, explaining what the books already heavily imply - there was originally no song. Go back and look at the chapters in TSR where you see the Tuatha'an break off; they're off "to find the old songs".

The "song" idea has nothing to do with the way of the leaf. There's no contradiction here, they're deserters.

[Luckers]

Indeed, though I would not phrase it so harshly. The Aiel who became the Tuatha'an abandoned their service to the Aes Sedai--this is why the Aiel name them the Lost Ones.

 

They left because they desired to find the peace prosperity they knew in the Age of Legends, including the singing they once took place in. This over time evolved into the myth of The Song, a magic song which would return the Age of Legends and bring back everything they lost. But the Song such as modern tinkers speak of, does not, and never did exist. There is the Singing, which is a vocal Talent which both uses and can enhance the use of the One Power, but that is not the Song.

 

Read this: Demystifying the Song

[Mystica]

wow... thanks for instantly turning this discussion into a hostile environment.

 

To answer your accusation of me making up things:

 

 

From The Shadow Rising, chapter The Dedicated, page 429 (paperback):

 

"Jonai?"

He turned at the sound of Solinda's voice, went to one knee as she approached. The others were still arguing, but more quietly.

"All is in readiness, Jonai?" she said.

"All, Aes Sedai. Solinda Sedai..." He hesitated, took a deep breath. "Solinda Sedai, some of us wish to remain. We can serve, still."

"Do you know what happened to the Aiel at Tzora?" He nodded, and she sighed, reaching out to smooth his short hair as if he were a child. "Of course you do. You Da'shain have more courage than... Ten thousand Aiel linking arms and singing, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song. Jaric Mondoran killed them. He stood there, staring as though at a puzzle, killing them, and they kept closing their lines and singing. I am told he listened to the last Aiel for almot an hour before destroying him. And then Tzora burned, one huge flame consuming stone and metal and flesh. There is a sheet of glass where the second greatest city in the world once stood."

"Many people had time to flee, Aes Sedai. The Da'Shain earned them time to flee. We are not afraid."

Her hand tightened in his hair. "The citizens have already fled Paaran Disen, Jonai. Besides, the Da'Shain have a part yet to play, if Deindre could only see far enough to say what. In any case, I mean to save something here, and that something is you."

"As you say," he said relucantly. "We will care for what you ahve given into our charge until you want them again."

"Of course. The things we gave you." She smiled at him and loosened her grip, smoothing his hair once more before folding her hands. "You will carry the... things... to safety, Jonai. Keep moving, always moving, until you find a place of safety. Where no one can harm you."

"As you say, Aes Sedai."

"What of Coumin, Jonai? Has he calmed?"

He did not know any way but to tell her; he would rather have bitten his tongue out. "My father is hiding somewhere in the city. He tried to talk us into... resisting. He would not listen, Aes Sedai. He would not listen. he found an old shocklance somewhere, and..." He could not go on. He expected her to be angry, but her eyes glistened with tears.

"keep the Covenant, Jonai. If the Da'shain lose everything else, see they keep the Way of the Leaf. Promise me."

"Of course, Aes Sedai," he said, shocked. The Covenant was the Aiel, and the Aiel were teh Covenant; to abandon the Way would be to abandon what they were. Coumin was an aboration. he had been strange since he was a boy, it was said, hardly Aiel at all, though no one knew why.

"Go now, Jonai. I want you far from Paaren Disen by tomorrow. And remember - keep moving. Keep the Aiel safe."

 

From The Shadow Rising, chapter The Dedicated, page 432(paperback):

 

The Ogier began it, as was fitting, standing to sing, great bass rumbles like the earth singing. The Aiel rose, men's voices lifting in the their own song, even the deepest at a higher pitch than the Ogier's. Yet the songs braided together, and Someshta took those threads and wove them into his dance, gliding across the field in swooping strides, arms wide, butterflies swirling about him, landing on his spread fingertips.

Coumin could hear the seed singing around the other fields, hear the women clapping to urge the men on, their rhythm the heartbeat of new life, but it was a distant knowledge. The song caught him up, and he almost felt that it was himself, not the sounds he made, that Someshta wove into the soil and around the field, taller wherever the Nym's foot had trod. No blight would touch those plants, nor any insect; seed sung, they would eventually grow twice as high as a man and fill the town's grainbarns. This was what he had been born for, this song and the other seed songs. He did not regret the fact that the Aes Sedai had passed him over at ten, saying he lacked the spark. To have been trained as Aes Sedai would have been wondrous, but surely no more so than this moment."

 

 

 

 

 

Now, I will accept the possibility that I may have interpreted things wrongly, but I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from accusing me of making stuff up.

 

 

The seed songs were the original songs, which the Tinkers refer to as 'The Song' as a collective name for them all. Lews Therin asks Ishamael 'do you know the song, stranger?' at the very beginning of the EoTW. (can't reference it as I've lend out my copy to someone at the moment). The Aiel men were, as shown above, an integrate part of the seed singing, along with the Ogier and the Nym. This was so much a part of them that it felt more like the Nym was using the men instead of their song to weave his dance, which in a way may well be the case. The Song was every bit a part of them as the Way of the Leaf was. I didn't mean to imply that the song was the Way of the Leaf, only that it was as much a part of them as the Covenant was.

 

 

The Covenant, in it's original meaning, was the keeping of the Way of the Leaf. It had nothing to do with safeguarding items for Aes Sedai. This duty was a duty used by Solinda as a cover to make sure the Da'Shain would obey her and for her to reach her goal of saving 'them' (not the items). The Da'Shain would never have placed their own safety on such a high priority and it was the only way for the Aes Sedai to protect them against what was coming. Give them a task that would last for generations and by performing their 'duty' they would automatically execute her true wish, which was to keep the Aiel safe.

 

 

When the First Division came, some Aiel split off by abandoning the duty to save the items but they kept the Covenant and followed the order to 'always move, till you find a place of safety'. By that time, the duty of protecting the items had become so deeply inbedded in to the remaining Aiel, that they 'thought' of it as part of the Covenant, but it wasn't. The Covenant was the Way of the Leaf. Nothing more. That their belief and interpretation of it changed over generations doesn't change that fact. And it was the original Covenant that the Aes Sedai urged them not to forget. Which the Tinkers did not. They only felt that they could not uphold the order to keep the Aiel safe while at the same time protecting the items entrusted to them. So they made a choice, but they never abandonned the Covenant. Precisely as the Aes Sedai wanted. So for 'them' the duties of keeping the Aiel safe ànd protecting the items was contradictory, as they didn't see a way of being able to do both. So they picked one and abandonned the other.

 

 

The warrior Aiel, on the other hand, did abandon the Covenant but they refused to give up the name Aiel. Claiming it as their own and later even wincing at hearing the Jenn call themselves Aiel too. The word Jenn had been given to the remaining Da'Shain Aiel by those who turned to the warrior path as a derisive name. One the Jenn embraced and used to drive home that, yes, they were the True Aiel. The True Dedicated. The warrior Aiel used excuses to claim they didn't abadon the Covenant by saying that they don't use swords, but the Covenant dictates to 'take what comes and NOT resist it'. It makes no difference whether they kill with swords or spears, the fact that they resist is what betrays the Covenant. Whatever tools they use for it.

In a weird twist of things, they too obeyed the command to 'keep the Aiel safe', by protecting the wagons of the Da'Shain which allowed them time to survive long enough to reach Rhuidean in the first place, set up the columns and the Aes Sedai with them to set the rules for future Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones when it became apparent that the Jenn were not the ones who would produce the Car'a'carn. And while the Tinkers forgot their origin, the Aiel at least retained that knowledge their mutual beginnings, through their Wise Ones and their Clan Chiefs.

 

 

 

 

Ok, hopefully I wrote out what I meant in a way that it can be understood, but if not, so be it. I won't be responding to any more hostility from this point.

[Mystica]

note: was working on my post before Lucker's post was up, so it's not in response to his.

[jmk10780]

Well the tinkers followed the way of the leaf, and always have. Now before the breaking they were called Aiel. I don't know what happened since then to change their names. 3000 years is a lot of time, now in that time people can evolve a lot. And I think the main reason for the physical differences might be the environment. The harsh climate of the waste is surely extreme enough to change traits over generations. It's all about adaptation, when you move to a hot climate your body adjusts to the temperature. Perhaps over the generations, the Aiel physically adapted.

[randsc]

Well the tinkers followed the way of the leaf, and always have. Now before the breaking they were called Aiel. I don't know what happened since then to change their names. 3000 years is a lot of time, now in that time people can evolve a lot. And I think the main reason for the physical differences might be the environment. The harsh climate of the waste is surely extreme enough to change traits over generations. It's all about adaptation, when you move to a hot climate your body adjusts to the temperature. Perhaps over the generations, the Aiel physically adapted.

 

 

Actually, in evolutionary time, 3000 years is the blink of an eye. Not a lot of time at all.

 

The Tinkers look different because the feckless bastards steal children. :)

[Never]

Actually, in evolutionary time, 3000 is the blink of an eye. Not a lot of time at all.

 

 

Normally I would agree with this, but I do think the process of evolution might have been accelerated by the VERY hostile environment that is the Aiel Waste. After all, the more of the "weaker" that die, the faster some genetic advantages will be passed down. Oh, they will still have the form of humans, but the Aiel are taller and more athletic than other people. My theory would be that those who were not genetically athletic, might fall behind and die, ensuring the continuation of the strongest bloodlines.

 

I don't know why I say all this, you obviously know of the process. I just think it might have mattered to make the Aiel who they are. Nevertheless, you are right though, the Tinkers look different mostly because they've bred with other races.

[FarShainMael]

Take a look at a medieval suit of armour sometime. Modern-day humans are a lot taller than our ancestors of only a thousand or so years ago.

[randsc]

Take a look at a medieval suit of armour sometime. Modern-day humans are a lot taller than our ancestors of only a thousand or so years ago.

 

Nutrition, not evolution.

 

If the Aiel have evolved to their harsh desert environment, why are they fair-skinned, with blue or gray eyes and red hair? It doesn't make sense.

 

It makes far more sense that the Aiel, being geographically isolated from other peoples, represent the historic norm, and the Tinkers, having actively recruited from many peoples, are deviating from that norm.

[jsbrads]

yeah, AoL Aeil were red heads and blondes, with fair skin and blue eyes, the soldier has dark hair and eyes and the boy thought that was exotic-ish, for lack of a better word.

The height maybe a combination of natural selection, nutrition and athletic activity (exercise encourages growth)

 

The Aes Sedai did say way of leaf is most important, I'm not sure why they were never recruited into the army during the biggest war for mankind's survival.

 

*Saving the trees seem to be something the Aeil wanted to do, they liked those trees, they were not commanded to do so...

 

They worked for the Aes Sedai before the Bore.

 

I'm not sure what the origin of the Aeil was, but they definitely worked for Aes Sedai before the Bore, 99% probability they followed way of the leaf before and were unique for that belief, during War of Power their belief was encouraged if not exactly accepted by the common folk (later people feared Ogier more than respected their belief, but ruling body didn't allow them to drafted) *no connection to tree of Life.

 

The Songs were just songs, the songs may have been important for the agriculture, the songs may have been the Aeil's real job and helping Aes Sedai may have been something to do when not singing plants (the ogier may have been police part-time and sang part-time) the songs may have been the reason they followed the way of leaf (with no other explanation, anything might be the reason)

[Lacanos]

wow... thanks for instantly turning this discussion into a hostile environment.

 

To answer your accusation of me making up things:

 

 

From The Shadow Rising, chapter The Dedicated, page 429 (paperback):

 

"Jonai?"

He turned at the sound of Solinda's voice, went to one knee as she approached. The others were still arguing, but more quietly.

"All is in readiness, Jonai?" she said.

"All, Aes Sedai. Solinda Sedai..." He hesitated, took a deep breath. "Solinda Sedai, some of us wish to remain. We can serve, still."

"Do you know what happened to the Aiel at Tzora?" He nodded, and she sighed, reaching out to smooth his short hair as if he were a child. "Of course you do. You Da'shain have more courage than... Ten thousand Aiel linking arms and singing, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song. Jaric Mondoran killed them. He stood there, staring as though at a puzzle, killing them, and they kept closing their lines and singing. I am told he listened to the last Aiel for almot an hour before destroying him. And then Tzora burned, one huge flame consuming stone and metal and flesh. There is a sheet of glass where the second greatest city in the world once stood."

"Many people had time to flee, Aes Sedai. The Da'Shain earned them time to flee. We are not afraid."

Her hand tightened in his hair. "The citizens have already fled Paaran Disen, Jonai. Besides, the Da'Shain have a part yet to play, if Deindre could only see far enough to say what. In any case, I mean to save something here, and that something is you."

"As you say," he said relucantly. "We will care for what you ahve given into our charge until you want them again."

"Of course. The things we gave you." She smiled at him and loosened her grip, smoothing his hair once more before folding her hands. "You will carry the... things... to safety, Jonai. Keep moving, always moving, until you find a place of safety. Where no one can harm you."

"As you say, Aes Sedai."

"What of Coumin, Jonai? Has he calmed?"

He did not know any way but to tell her; he would rather have bitten his tongue out. "My father is hiding somewhere in the city. He tried to talk us into... resisting. He would not listen, Aes Sedai. He would not listen. he found an old shocklance somewhere, and..." He could not go on. He expected her to be angry, but her eyes glistened with tears.

"keep the Covenant, Jonai. If the Da'shain lose everything else, see they keep the Way of the Leaf. Promise me."

"Of course, Aes Sedai," he said, shocked. The Covenant was the Aiel, and the Aiel were teh Covenant; to abandon the Way would be to abandon what they were. Coumin was an aboration. he had been strange since he was a boy, it was said, hardly Aiel at all, though no one knew why.

"Go now, Jonai. I want you far from Paaren Disen by tomorrow. And remember - keep moving. Keep the Aiel safe."

 

From The Shadow Rising, chapter The Dedicated, page 432(paperback):

 

The Ogier began it, as was fitting, standing to sing, great bass rumbles like the earth singing. The Aiel rose, men's voices lifting in the their own song, even the deepest at a higher pitch than the Ogier's. Yet the songs braided together, and Someshta took those threads and wove them into his dance, gliding across the field in swooping strides, arms wide, butterflies swirling about him, landing on his spread fingertips.

Coumin could hear the seed singing around the other fields, hear the women clapping to urge the men on, their rhythm the heartbeat of new life, but it was a distant knowledge. The song caught him up, and he almost felt that it was himself, not the sounds he made, that Someshta wove into the soil and around the field, taller wherever the Nym's foot had trod. No blight would touch those plants, nor any insect; seed sung, they would eventually grow twice as high as a man and fill the town's grainbarns. This was what he had been born for, this song and the other seed songs. He did not regret the fact that the Aes Sedai had passed him over at ten, saying he lacked the spark. To have been trained as Aes Sedai would have been wondrous, but surely no more so than this moment."

 

 

 

 

 

Now, I will accept the possibility that I may have interpreted things wrongly, but I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from accusing me of making stuff up.

 

 

The seed songs were the original songs, which the Tinkers refer to as 'The Song' as a collective name for them all. Lews Therin asks Ishamael 'do you know the song, stranger?' at the very beginning of the EoTW. (can't reference it as I've lend out my copy to someone at the moment). The Aiel men were, as shown above, an integrate part of the seed singing, along with the Ogier and the Nym. This was so much a part of them that it felt more like the Nym was using the men instead of their song to weave his dance, which in a way may well be the case. The Song was every bit a part of them as the Way of the Leaf was. I didn't mean to imply that the song was the Way of the Leaf, only that it was as much a part of them as the Covenant was.

 

 

The Covenant, in it's original meaning, was the keeping of the Way of the Leaf. It had nothing to do with safeguarding items for Aes Sedai. This duty was a duty used by Solinda as a cover to make sure the Da'Shain would obey her and for her to reach her goal of saving 'them' (not the items). The Da'Shain would never have placed their own safety on such a high priority and it was the only way for the Aes Sedai to protect them against what was coming. Give them a task that would last for generations and by performing their 'duty' they would automatically execute her true wish, which was to keep the Aiel safe.

 

 

When the First Division came, some Aiel split off by abandoning the duty to save the items but they kept the Covenant and followed the order to 'always move, till you find a place of safety'. By that time, the duty of protecting the items had become so deeply inbedded in to the remaining Aiel, that they 'thought' of it as part of the Covenant, but it wasn't. The Covenant was the Way of the Leaf. Nothing more. That their belief and interpretation of it changed over generations doesn't change that fact. And it was the original Covenant that the Aes Sedai urged them not to forget. Which the Tinkers did not. They only felt that they could not uphold the order to keep the Aiel safe while at the same time protecting the items entrusted to them. So they made a choice, but they never abandonned the Covenant. Precisely as the Aes Sedai wanted. So for 'them' the duties of keeping the Aiel safe ànd protecting the items was contradictory, as they didn't see a way of being able to do both. So they picked one and abandonned the other.

 

 

The warrior Aiel, on the other hand, did abandon the Covenant but they refused to give up the name Aiel. Claiming it as their own and later even wincing at hearing the Jenn call themselves Aiel too. The word Jenn had been given to the remaining Da'Shain Aiel by those who turned to the warrior path as a derisive name. One the Jenn embraced and used to drive home that, yes, they were the True Aiel. The True Dedicated. The warrior Aiel used excuses to claim they didn't abadon the Covenant by saying that they don't use swords, but the Covenant dictates to 'take what comes and NOT resist it'. It makes no difference whether they kill with swords or spears, the fact that they resist is what betrays the Covenant. Whatever tools they use for it.

In a weird twist of things, they too obeyed the command to 'keep the Aiel safe', by protecting the wagons of the Da'Shain which allowed them time to survive long enough to reach Rhuidean in the first place, set up the columns and the Aes Sedai with them to set the rules for future Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones when it became apparent that the Jenn were not the ones who would produce the Car'a'carn. And while the Tinkers forgot their origin, the Aiel at least retained that knowledge their mutual beginnings, through their Wise Ones and their Clan Chiefs.

 

 

 

 

Ok, hopefully I wrote out what I meant in a way that it can be understood, but if not, so be it. I won't be responding to any more hostility from this point.

 

I'm sorry I came across so hostile, but the point I was making was not that there was no myth relating to the song or whatever, but rather that it was as instrumental to their presence and way of life as the Way of the Leaf; rather, it was something they used. In your OP, you seemed to be saying the Tuatha'an were as correct to their original way of life as the Jenn albeit in a different form, while that would be wrong no?

[Mystica]

From what I've read, the Song was more than just something they used. He literally thought that this was what he had been born for'. Which (in my opinion) is every bit as strong as 'the Way of the Leaf is the Aiel and the Aiel are the Way of the Leaf'. That is why I believe that the Song (aka: the collection of songs that help grow crops capable of withstanding even the Blight itself, creating life beyond the corruption of the Dark One which) is quite a bit more than just creating life like everyone other farmer) is an enherent part of the Da'Shain Aiel.

 

Whether they were wrong or not, I don't feel entitled to say that. Especially considering that we know the Jenn Aiel eventually died out by seemingly natural selection (birth rate dropped to the point they couldn't survive as a group). So I interpret this as something that 'had' to happen according to the will of the Pattern. But you're right, in the eyes of the Jenn Aiel they were very wrong. The idea of an Aiel to abandon their duty to Aes Sedai was totally unheard off. It was looked at as a total disgrace by all other Aiel.

 

My point is, rather, that both the Tinkers as well as the warrior Aiel remained dedicated, but each to their own chosen focuss. Yes, they didn't remain as faithfull as the Jenn Aiel, but the Tinkers remained the truest to their Covenant and remained dedicated to that. The warrior Aiel cast down the Covenant (which is a much bigger wrong than what the Tinkers did in the eyes of the Jenn and the Aes Sedai of the AOL) but remained dedicated in their self-imposed duty to 'keep the Aiel safe'.

[Mr Ares]

Now, I will accept the possibility that I may have interpreted things wrongly, but I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from accusing me of making stuff up.

 

 

The seed songs were the original songs, which the Tinkers refer to as 'The Song' as a collective name for them all. Lews Therin asks Ishamael 'do you know the song, stranger?' at the very beginning of the EoTW. (can't reference it as I've lend out my copy to someone at the moment). The Aiel men were, as shown above, an integrate part of the seed singing, along with the Ogier and the Nym. This was so much a part of them that it felt more like the Nym was using the men instead of their song to weave his dance, which in a way may well be the case. The Song was every bit a part of them as the Way of the Leaf was. I didn't mean to imply that the song was the Way of the Leaf, only that it was as much a part of them as the Covenant was.

You're not making things up. You are, however, misremembering slightly - Lews Therin actually asks Ishamael if he has the Voice.

[Mystica]

ok, Ares. Yes, it was the Voice. Like said, my first two books are on loan to a friend, so I didn't remember the exact wording. But, unless I'm mistaken, the Voice is directly linked to the seed singing. At least, that's how I always interpreted it.

[Lacanos]

ok, Ares. Yes, it was the Voice. Like said, my first two books are on loan to a friend, so I didn't remember the exact wording. But, unless I'm mistaken, the Voice is directly linked to the seed singing. At least, that's how I always interpreted it.

That's true yeah, we're given to understand the "voice" as being the talent required for seed singing.

The laughter cut off as if it had never been, and Lews Therin turned, seeming unsurprised. "Ah, a guest. Have you the Voice, stranger? It will soon be time for the Singing, and here all are welcome to take part. Ilyena, my love, we have a guest. Ilyena, where are you?"

 

[tEotW; Prologue, Dragonmount]

 

I still don't believe that the singing was ever as essential to their being as the Way of the Leaf, nor serving the Aes Sedai. Rather, it was a skill they had that they could use.

 

 

That said, there was always some dispute about whether the search for the song the Tuatha'an were undertaking had anything to do with the seed singing, or whether it was entirely separate, and the only link was in the idea of singing itself. When the Tuatha'an break away, they say they're going to look for the old songs, and that Aiel singing was a wonderful thing (paraphrasing due to not having my copies here); but whether that's linked to the seed singing is left open.

I like to think this is the real tragedy of the Tuatha'an; they're essentially searching for a myth that doesn't exist. As Luckers puts it:

In this it is made clear that the Song that what the Tinkers seek is not a magical song, but rather an expression of the desire of their Aiel forbearers to find a safe place and regain the culture they lost. It a symbol, not a real thing.....

 

The Song does not and never did exist, except as a symbol for the Tuatha’an. The Singing might be recovered but it may not be as simple as everyone thinks it will be, nor as effective. Even if it is I rather doubt the Tuatha’an will be impressed—indeed, they might be rather devastated. They’ve spent three thousand years chasing something that isn’t real. The revelation of the Singing may well destroy their hope for the Song, and through that, destroy them.

[RyanL24]

WoW, I thought the song was a song this whole time myself. Damnit, why don't these books come with some kind of guide telling me how I'm supposed to interpret this stuff? There is a sword that is not a sword, why couldn't RJ have called this the song that isn't a song?

 

Killin' me!!!

 

 

 

Sorry, it's just been tripping me out about this board lately. I've been on other similar boards, and people say things like "Hmmm... that's how you interpret that? Interesting. I always thought the author was trying to say......" Where here it's more like "Sorry, but this is garbage. You're actually making things up." And then we get the authorative opinion from Luckers or Terez (although they aren't always the same opinion) and are told that our opinions aren't valid, we've interpreted it wrong. The only correct way to interpret it is the way that Luckers did, unless you are Terez.

 

Sorry, still adapting to life on Dragonmount.

[Lacanos]

WoW, I thought the song was a song this whole time myself. Damnit, why don't these books come with some kind of guide telling me how I'm supposed to interpret this stuff? There is a sword that is not a sword, why couldn't RJ have called this the song that isn't a song?

 

Killin' me!!!

 

 

 

Sorry, it's just been tripping me out about this board lately. I've been on other similar boards, and people say things like "Hmmm... that's how you interpret that? Interesting. I always thought the author was trying to say......" Where here it's more like "Sorry, but this is garbage. You're actually making things up." And then we get the authorative opinion from Luckers or Terez (although they aren't always the same opinion) and are told that our opinions aren't valid, we've interpreted it wrong. The only correct way to interpret it is the way that Luckers did, unless you are Terez.

 

Sorry, still adapting to life on Dragonmount.

 

 

Nah, it's certainly not that Luckers and Terez are always right/wrong; and I want to apologise again for being so rude earlier on in this post - people acting like that always irritates me so it's rather hypocritical of me to have done the same.

 

Rather, the reason I've directed towards Luckers' thread here is because, in my opinion, he's done (and frequently does) a post that grabs pretty much all the available evidence, puts it succinctly, and draws a reasonable/obvious conclusion. That's not to say he's necessarily right, but it's certainly persuasive; and if more people (myself included) put that type of effort into posts, the discussion would be without par on these boards.

 

As I say, Luckers isn't always right though, I mean, check his crazy ideas about Demandred.... [not the place to discuss this obviously, just banter]

[jsbrads]

As important as the songs are and as important as the songs are to the Aiel, they were not important to the future of the planet as the task given to the Aiel. The Lost Ones are failures in their chosen profession.

 

The Aiel abandoned their religion. This is the equivalent to treason, criminal activity, heresy, etc.

 

The tuathan are people who left work without giving two weeks notice, the police involved in the Blue-Flu. They left the Jenn under duress; namely, they were being killed, robbed, kidnapped, going hungry, etc. They were fools to do so not only because it did not give them any greater safty, but their violation was not criminal, treasonous, heretical, etc.

[Luckers]

I never demand people agree with my interpretations, and like to think I'm very clear with the distinction between when I am citing my opinion and when I'm citing something as fact.

 

But by all means, check out my FAQ's and Theories (linked in my sig) and make up your own mind. They aren't updated for TofM (nor are some for tGS), but it should give you an idea.