Are Amirlyn and Empress equal?

[Suttree]

So you think the borderlanders respect the greens less than the other Ajahs? Of course not. If anything they don't differentiate at all, therefore no Aes Sedai, or subgroup has turned them off.

 

I wasn't trying to prove they loved greens specifically, or more than others. Just that the borderlanders don't see the fail.

 

Tbh Kael, I´m baffled why they still respect the Aes Sedai and how they don´t see the fail. They don´t come to the Borderlands to help them and they still have to pay tribute.

 

How do they not have AS helping them? Every borderland ruler has a number of AS advisors stationed with them full time. You can check out the prologue of tPoD where it discusses that.

[Kahsm]

So you think the borderlanders respect the greens less than the other Ajahs? Of course not. If anything they don't differentiate at all, therefore no Aes Sedai, or subgroup has turned them off.

 

I wasn't trying to prove they loved greens specifically, or more than others. Just that the borderlanders don't see the fail.

 

Tbh Kael, I´m baffled why they still respect the Aes Sedai and how they don´t see the fail. They don´t come to the Borderlands to help them and they still have to pay tribute.

 

How do they not have AS helping them? Every borderland ruler has a number of AS advisors stationed with them full time. You can check out the prologue of tPoD where it discusses that.

 

I got that feeling too, but there are clearly none with Agelmar at the end of tEotW when he was most in need. So I think there should be advisors, but they wander at will and prefer WT life. If you have a quote saying they are always there, give it up!

[Suttree]

So you think the borderlanders respect the greens less than the other Ajahs? Of course not. If anything they don't differentiate at all, therefore no Aes Sedai, or subgroup has turned them off.

 

I wasn't trying to prove they loved greens specifically, or more than others. Just that the borderlanders don't see the fail.

 

Tbh Kael, I´m baffled why they still respect the Aes Sedai and how they don´t see the fail. They don´t come to the Borderlands to help them and they still have to pay tribute.

 

How do they not have AS helping them? Every borderland ruler has a number of AS advisors stationed with them full time. You can check out the prologue of tPoD where it discusses that.

 

I got that feeling too, but there are clearly none with Agelmar at the end of tEotW when he was most in need. So I think there should be advisors, but they wander at will and prefer WT life. If you have a quote saying they are always there, give it up!

 

Actually I went back and it mentions that they all have them but Easar's advisor Aisling left after hearing rumors of the WT split. Paitar has 8 AS, Ethenielle 1 in Nianh, and Tenobia has 5 plus 1 left behind.

[David Selig]

Have we ever even seen the Green fail aside from the Seanchan attack? One surprise raid lost and the whole Ajah is worthless? I would like someone to ask BS to explain what the AS who are with the borderland rulers roles are. How do they help deal with incursions etc...

Elayne and Egwene (she considers herself kind of honorary Green after all) got captured quite a few times, does that count? ;) Though nearly all of those were before they became Aes Sedai.

 

Mat himself admitted that Joline "knows something" about war when she tried to give him advice on the planning of the Seanchan campaign in KoD, which coming from him, given how much she annoyed him, probably means she had quite a lot of knowledge on tactics and stuff like that.

[buckeyebull64]

I kinda figure the Greens know and/or have studied quite a bit of conventional stuff...the problem being very few parts of the current war has been or is going to be conventional. We're at a point where war is rapidly changing: the one power is being openly used by several armies, Mat (and ok, fine, Elayne) are bringing about firearms and artillary, and armies can strike from virtually any point on the map. Im just waiting for the first Randland Green Berets to show up..."Green" Berets...maybe the greens have something to do with that...

[Generic_Aelfinn_2]

Rand's armies > Seanchan armies by a great extent.

 

why? THREE great generals: Matt, Bashere, and Ituralde

 

they've all consistently kicked the seanchan's asses throughout the book. Yes, they admitted they were 'running out of tricks', but that was only when they were fighting with inferior forces(and in Ituralde's case, without channelers).

 

They would absolutely wreck the Seanchan in a head-on campaign. The Seanchan are incredibly unmaneuverable, fine when you're fighting pockets of resistance(the Consolidation and rebellions). Their military tactics are based on massing strength in the enemy's weakest points - this strategy is only really effective if you want a war of attrition.

 

If you want to contest the effectiveness of maneuver over strength, I'm just going to point you to Napolean.

 

 

ps, Empress > Amyrlin any day of the Age

[sleepinghour]

Mat himself admitted that Joline "knows something" about war when she tried to give him advice on the planning of the Seanchan campaign in KoD, which coming from him, given how much she annoyed him, probably means she had quite a lot of knowledge on tactics and stuff like that.

Joline was also the one who turned into a weeping mess after only a few days of hiding from the Seanchan in Ebou Dar. She is former Sitter for the Green and at least 80+ years old. Unlike Elayne and Nynaeve at Falme, she also had two Warders to protect her.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Mat himself admitted that Joline "knows something" about war when she tried to give him advice on the planning of the Seanchan campaign in KoD, which coming from him, given how much she annoyed him, probably means she had quite a lot of knowledge on tactics and stuff like that.

Joline was also the one who turned into a weeping mess after only a few days of hiding from the Seanchan in Ebou Dar. She is former Sitter for the Green and at least 80+ years old. Unlike Elayne and Nynaeve at Falme, she also had two Warders to protect her.

 

This I wouldn't hold against her. We have historical analogies for such situations, when you're hiding from a ruthless enemy in an alien territory, when every mistake you make may be your last, every sound you hear may be soldiers coming for you, you see no way of escape and face the prospect of fate worse than death...Yeah, I think it is a perfectly normal reaction and would remain so even for a brave and experienced warrior (I'm making no such claims about Joline btw). It is one thing to be a soldier on a field on battle,with a weapon in your hand and friends around, but to be a hunted animal is something entirely different.

 

I don't think the Greens are good fighters simply because they very rarely fight in real battles. Good soldiers are experienced soldiers.

[Kal11]

The more important handicap being the three oaths...the 3 oaths have made the Aes Sedai a completely useless military organization against non-shadowspawn opponents. Think about it..if a Seachan army and a AS backed army come face to face..the damane will stay behind the front lines and unleash hell while the AS will have to actively court danger to even start using the OP.It will not even be a contest.

 

I always found that oath to be kind of amusing in it's application. Such as when the Aes Sedai that fought along with Mat against the Seanchan kept saying she didn't feel she was in danger yet so she could not use the OP. The enemy was attacking them en masse with the intent to kill them all, so logically they were already in danger. Given that the oaths restrict based on personal belief, for example an AS can tell a lie if she believes it to be true, an Aes Sedai would have to be pretty dense to not realize they were already in danger the moment the forces engaged each other. Having to wait for the enemy to get in bow range or start swinging a sword at them shows a pretty short view of logical conclusions about what constitutes danger.

[cookiecrisp]

Even if the WT managed to somehow gain command of Tear, Illian, and Andor's armies, they wouldn't be able to fend off the Seanchan.

 

Rand's armies had trouble fighting the Seanchan. It's been pretty much accepted in Randland (at least with LB impending) that the Seanchan advance is inevitable. The columns in Rhuidean even showed Seanchan victory.

 

Without Rand and his Aiel and Ashaman, Seanchan victory would be guaranteed.

 

The Empress has complete control over her forces, Egwene has tenuous control over the army and is missing over a third of all AS missing, including a large chunk bound to Rand.

[Generic_Aelfinn_2]

The more important handicap being the three oaths...the 3 oaths have made the Aes Sedai a completely useless military organization against non-shadowspawn opponents. Think about it..if a Seachan army and a AS backed army come face to face..the damane will stay behind the front lines and unleash hell while the AS will have to actively court danger to even start using the OP.It will not even be a contest.

 

I always found that oath to be kind of amusing in it's application. Such as when the Aes Sedai that fought along with Mat against the Seanchan kept saying she didn't feel she was in danger yet so she could not use the OP. The enemy was attacking them en masse with the intent to kill them all, so logically they were already in danger. Given that the oaths restrict based on personal belief, for example an AS can tell a lie if she believes it to be true, an Aes Sedai would have to be pretty dense to not realize they were already in danger the moment the forces engaged each other. Having to wait for the enemy to get in bow range or start swinging a sword at them shows a pretty short view of logical conclusions about what constitutes danger.

 

I don't remember the part of the story very well, but being with Mat, it would take ALOT to convince me that I was in danger while not being on the frontlines.

 

Even if the WT managed to somehow gain command of Tear, Illian, and Andor's armies, they wouldn't be able to fend off the Seanchan.

 

Rand's armies had trouble fighting the Seanchan. It's been pretty much accepted in Randland (at least with LB impending) that the Seanchan advance is inevitable. The columns in Rhuidean even showed Seanchan victory.

 

Without Rand and his Aiel and Ashaman, Seanchan victory would be guaranteed.

 

The Empress has complete control over her forces, Egwene has tenuous control over the army and is missing over a third of all AS missing, including a large chunk bound to Rand.

 

I don't recall a battle where the Seanchan have actually fought without the element of surprise(usually by 'amphibious' landings).

[XXX]

The more important handicap being the three oaths...the 3 oaths have made the Aes Sedai a completely useless military organization against non-shadowspawn opponents. Think about it..if a Seachan army and a AS backed army come face to face..the damane will stay behind the front lines and unleash hell while the AS will have to actively court danger to even start using the OP.It will not even be a contest.

 

I always found that oath to be kind of amusing in it's application. Such as when the Aes Sedai that fought along with Mat against the Seanchan kept saying she didn't feel she was in danger yet so she could not use the OP. The enemy was attacking them en masse with the intent to kill them all, so logically they were already in danger. Given that the oaths restrict based on personal belief, for example an AS can tell a lie if she believes it to be true, an Aes Sedai would have to be pretty dense to not realize they were already in danger the moment the forces engaged each other. Having to wait for the enemy to get in bow range or start swinging a sword at them shows a pretty short view of logical conclusions about what constitutes danger.

 

 

It is a stupid stupid oath...and singlehandedly make the AS a mediocre military organization.

[Puny]

So you think the borderlanders respect the greens less than the other Ajahs? Of course not. If anything they don't differentiate at all, therefore no Aes Sedai, or subgroup has turned them off.

 

I wasn't trying to prove they loved greens specifically, or more than others. Just that the borderlanders don't see the fail.

 

Tbh Kael, I´m baffled why they still respect the Aes Sedai and how they don´t see the fail. They don´t come to the Borderlands to help them and they still have to pay tribute.

 

How do they not have AS helping them? Every borderland ruler has a number of AS advisors stationed with them full time. You can check out the prologue of tPoD where it discusses that.

 

I got that feeling too, but there are clearly none with Agelmar at the end of tEotW when he was most in need. So I think there should be advisors, but they wander at will and prefer WT life. If you have a quote saying they are always there, give it up!

 

Actually I went back and it mentions that they all have them but Easar's advisor Aisling left after hearing rumors of the WT split. Paitar has 8 AS, Ethenielle 1 in Nianh, and Tenobia has 5 plus 1 left behind.

 

Advisors... yeah. Like any other nation has, in secret or openly. They should have soldiers, Sisters that do battle, not advise them. I still hold to my claim that they havent helped the Borderlanders. You would think that the very nations that are on the edge of the Dark One touching them would want soliders, or more Sisters then your generic advisor.

[Suttree]

So you think the borderlanders respect the greens less than the other Ajahs? Of course not. If anything they don't differentiate at all, therefore no Aes Sedai, or subgroup has turned them off.

 

I wasn't trying to prove they loved greens specifically, or more than others. Just that the borderlanders don't see the fail.

 

Tbh Kael, I´m baffled why they still respect the Aes Sedai and how they don´t see the fail. They don´t come to the Borderlands to help them and they still have to pay tribute.

 

How do they not have AS helping them? Every borderland ruler has a number of AS advisors stationed with them full time. You can check out the prologue of tPoD where it discusses that.

 

I got that feeling too, but there are clearly none with Agelmar at the end of tEotW when he was most in need. So I think there should be advisors, but they wander at will and prefer WT life. If you have a quote saying they are always there, give it up!

 

Actually I went back and it mentions that they all have them but Easar's advisor Aisling left after hearing rumors of the WT split. Paitar has 8 AS, Ethenielle 1 in Nianh, and Tenobia has 5 plus 1 left behind.

 

Advisors... yeah. Like any other nation has, in secret or openly. They should have soldiers, Sisters that do battle, not advise them. I still hold to my claim that they havent helped the Borderlanders. You would think that the very nations that are on the edge of the Dark One touching them would want soliders, or more Sisters then your generic advisor.

 

Yeah you are right. I've brought it up a few times that I wish someone would as BS if the Bordrland advisors duties differ from those in other countries? Do they make up part of troop formations, are Greens sometimes part of patrols etc...? You would think the role of an advisor in Arafel would be very different from that in Andor. We do know Paitar's sister is Kiruna. She is one of the Greens that has done very well in fighting(Dumai's Wells), sure she has spent some time up there helping the throne out in the field.

[Puny]

So you think the borderlanders respect the greens less than the other Ajahs? Of course not. If anything they don't differentiate at all, therefore no Aes Sedai, or subgroup has turned them off.

 

I wasn't trying to prove they loved greens specifically, or more than others. Just that the borderlanders don't see the fail.

 

Tbh Kael, I´m baffled why they still respect the Aes Sedai and how they don´t see the fail. They don´t come to the Borderlands to help them and they still have to pay tribute.

 

How do they not have AS helping them? Every borderland ruler has a number of AS advisors stationed with them full time. You can check out the prologue of tPoD where it discusses that.

 

I got that feeling too, but there are clearly none with Agelmar at the end of tEotW when he was most in need. So I think there should be advisors, but they wander at will and prefer WT life. If you have a quote saying they are always there, give it up!

 

Actually I went back and it mentions that they all have them but Easar's advisor Aisling left after hearing rumors of the WT split. Paitar has 8 AS, Ethenielle 1 in Nianh, and Tenobia has 5 plus 1 left behind.

 

Advisors... yeah. Like any other nation has, in secret or openly. They should have soldiers, Sisters that do battle, not advise them. I still hold to my claim that they havent helped the Borderlanders. You would think that the very nations that are on the edge of the Dark One touching them would want soliders, or more Sisters then your generic advisor.

 

Yeah you are right. I've brought it up a few times that I wish someone would as BS if the Bordrland advisors duties differ from those in other countries? Do they make up part of troop formations, are Greens sometimes part of patrols etc...? You would think the role of an advisor in Arafel would be very different from that in Andor. We do know Paitar's sister is Kiruna. She is one of the Greens that has done very well in fighting(Dumai's Wells), sure she has spent some time up there helping the throne out in the field.

 

Yes I hope so too. (reason this bugged me is because the Blight is active, they can actually see how its lessening or increasing so they have a reason to fight up there... but if we compare to aSoIaF I can understand why no one cares about the Wall, because they haven´t seen monsters, or huge armies attacking for hundreds of years) The roles of the advisor should be different for Sisters in different countries. Kiruna did very well in the fighting, maybe she had some training in blasting trollocs up north.

[capuga]

So you think the borderlanders respect the greens less than the other Ajahs? Of course not. If anything they don't differentiate at all, therefore no Aes Sedai, or subgroup has turned them off.

 

I wasn't trying to prove they loved greens specifically, or more than others. Just that the borderlanders don't see the fail.

 

Tbh Kael, I´m baffled why they still respect the Aes Sedai and how they don´t see the fail. They don´t come to the Borderlands to help them and they still have to pay tribute.

 

How do they not have AS helping them? Every borderland ruler has a number of AS advisors stationed with them full time. You can check out the prologue of tPoD where it discusses that.

 

I got that feeling too, but there are clearly none with Agelmar at the end of tEotW when he was most in need. So I think there should be advisors, but they wander at will and prefer WT life. If you have a quote saying they are always there, give it up!

 

Actually I went back and it mentions that they all have them but Easar's advisor Aisling left after hearing rumors of the WT split. Paitar has 8 AS, Ethenielle 1 in Nianh, and Tenobia has 5 plus 1 left behind.

 

Advisors... yeah. Like any other nation has, in secret or openly. They should have soldiers, Sisters that do battle, not advise them. I still hold to my claim that they havent helped the Borderlanders. You would think that the very nations that are on the edge of the Dark One touching them would want soliders, or more Sisters then your generic advisor.

 

Yeah you are right. I've brought it up a few times that I wish someone would as BS if the Bordrland advisors duties differ from those in other countries? Do they make up part of troop formations, are Greens sometimes part of patrols etc...? You would think the role of an advisor in Arafel would be very different from that in Andor. We do know Paitar's sister is Kiruna. She is one of the Greens that has done very well in fighting(Dumai's Wells), sure she has spent some time up there helping the throne out in the field.

 

Yes I hope so too. (reason this bugged me is because the Blight is active, they can actually see how its lessening or increasing so they have a reason to fight up there... but if we compare to aSoIaF I can understand why no one cares about the Wall, because they haven´t seen monsters, or huge armies attacking for hundreds of years) The roles of the advisor should be different for Sisters in different countries. Kiruna did very well in the fighting, maybe she had some training in blasting trollocs up north.

 

Aside from helping the borderlands, you would think that the Greens would want to be up near the Blight in order to practice and hone their skills.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I don't think those advisers actually fought in the field for the following reasons:

1. They were advisers supposed to stick to the monarchs and secure the WT's political influence, not soldiers. It seems very unlikely to me that the Aes Sedai would behave completely differently in the Borderlands than farther south - every country would need Aes Sedai help, not least in healing, and the advisors limited themselves to counseling the rulers.

 

2. There is a huge social gap between Aes Sedai and common folks. We could see it e.g. in a way Moiraine was received in Shienar in tEotW. If Aes Sedai had ridden with soldiers to battle - even occasinally - than arrival of one sister should not cause so much commotion and so much distance should not exist between the Aes Sedai and common folks, especially soldiers.

 

3. We have never heard anybody in the Borderlands mention anything about Aes Sedai fighting. Shouldn't at least Agelmar say (in EotW) something like:"Oh, I wish I had my Aes Sedai adviser with me! She would really help us in Tarwin's Gap with her awesome battle skills!". It also seems very unlikely that if he Aes Sedai stationed in the Borderlands had any military goals and occupations at all, then nearest the most important road from the Blight, Tarwin's Gap, there would be no sisters present. You would expect that if they were there to fight, they should concentrate around Tarwin's Gap. I have to admit though that Agelmar said to Moiraine that she would be worth a thousand lances in the Gap (if I recall correctly). We don't know though whether it came from his high personal opinion of specifically Moiraine, his traditional respect for Aes Sedai or from actual experience of having seen the Aes Sedai fight in the Borderlands.

 

I also don't really think that Kiruna's description during Dumai's Wells show her to be such an experienced warrior. She sure is brave and strong-willed, but shouldn't an experienced soldier run from cover to cover and blast enemies from afar rather than stroll unconcernedly through the battle field with head high and risk that any stray arrow or spear may kill her? It seemed to me to show rather her personal courage, pride and lack of sense of self-preservation rahter than any special battle skills.

[Suttree]

I don't think those advisers actually fought in the field for the following reasons:

1. They were advisers supposed to stick to the monarchs and secure the WT's political influence, not soldiers. It seems very unlikely to me that the Aes Sedai would behave completely differently in the Borderlands than farther south - every country would need Aes Sedai help, not least in healing, and the advisors limited themselves to counseling the rulers.

 

2. There is a huge social gap between Aes Sedai and common folks. We could see it e.g. in a way Moiraine was received in Shienar in tEotW. If Aes Sedai had ridden with soldiers to battle - even occasinally - than arrival of one sister should not cause so much commotion and so much distance should not exist between the Aes Sedai and common folks, especially soldiers.

 

3. We have never heard anybody in the Borderlands mention anything about Aes Sedai fighting. Shouldn't at least Agelmar say (in EotW) something like:"Oh, I wish I had my Aes Sedai adviser with me! She would really help us in Tarwin's Gap with her awesome battle skills!". It also seems very unlikely that if he Aes Sedai stationed in the Borderlands had any military goals and occupations at all, then nearest the most important road from the Blight, Tarwin's Gap, there would be no sisters present. You would expect that if they were there to fight, they should concentrate around Tarwin's Gap. I have to admit though that Agelmar said to Moiraine that she would be worth a thousand lances in the Gap (if I recall correctly). We don't know though whether it came from his high personal opinion of specifically Moiraine, his traditional respect for Aes Sedai or from actual experience of having seen the Aes Sedai fight in the Borderlands.

 

I also don't really think that Kiruna's description during Dumai's Wells show her to be such an experienced warrior. She sure is brave and strong-willed, but shouldn't an experienced soldier rather run from cover to cover and blast enemies from afar than stroll unconcernedly through the battle field with head high and risk that any stray arrow or spear may kill her? It seemed to me to show rather her personal courage, pride and lack of sense of self-preservation rahter than any special battle skills.

 

Couple things, we know there is more than one AS with some of the Bordrland rulers. You would think they would have different roles aside from the one who is an advisor. As the responsibilities are far different in the Borderlands and would call for a different skill set I would hope they would behave differently.

 

I would take King Easar's word on what an Aes Sedai is worth as being from experience. Men who have that much battle knowledge are not prone to casual remarks that have little basis in reality.

 

As for Kiruna we know she was King Paitar's sister. As a Green from the Borderlands and knowing her brother has a huge affinity for the WT, I would be shocked if she didn't have hands on experience in the blight/understanding of tactics etc...

[Kahsm]

So you think the borderlanders respect the greens less than the other Ajahs? Of course not. If anything they don't differentiate at all, therefore no Aes Sedai, or subgroup has turned them off.

 

I wasn't trying to prove they loved greens specifically, or more than others. Just that the borderlanders don't see the fail.

 

Tbh Kael, I´m baffled why they still respect the Aes Sedai and how they don´t see the fail. They don´t come to the Borderlands to help them and they still have to pay tribute.

 

How do they not have AS helping them? Every borderland ruler has a number of AS advisors stationed with them full time. You can check out the prologue of tPoD where it discusses that.

 

I got that feeling too, but there are clearly none with Agelmar at the end of tEotW when he was most in need. So I think there should be advisors, but they wander at will and prefer WT life. If you have a quote saying they are always there, give it up!

 

Actually I went back and it mentions that they all have them but Easar's advisor Aisling left after hearing rumors of the WT split. Paitar has 8 AS, Ethenielle 1 in Nianh, and Tenobia has 5 plus 1 left behind.

 

Advisors... yeah. Like any other nation has, in secret or openly. They should have soldiers, Sisters that do battle, not advise them. I still hold to my claim that they havent helped the Borderlanders. You would think that the very nations that are on the edge of the Dark One touching them would want soliders, or more Sisters then your generic advisor.

 

Yeah you are right. I've brought it up a few times that I wish someone would as BS if the Bordrland advisors duties differ from those in other countries? Do they make up part of troop formations, are Greens sometimes part of patrols etc...? You would think the role of an advisor in Arafel would be very different from that in Andor. We do know Paitar's sister is Kiruna. She is one of the Greens that has done very well in fighting(Dumai's Wells), sure she has spent some time up there helping the throne out in the field.

 

Yes I hope so too. (reason this bugged me is because the Blight is active, they can actually see how its lessening or increasing so they have a reason to fight up there... but if we compare to aSoIaF I can understand why no one cares about the Wall, because they haven´t seen monsters, or huge armies attacking for hundreds of years) The roles of the advisor should be different for Sisters in different countries. Kiruna did very well in the fighting, maybe she had some training in blasting trollocs up north.

 

Aside from helping the borderlands, you would think that the Greens would want to be up near the Blight in order to practice and hone their skills.

 

While I admire your obvious personal sense of self-worth. In the real world, there are reasons why a lot of jobs monitor what employees are actually doing on their computers, why some people have to log their activities in 10,15,30 minute or 1 hour blocks, and why some have people literally looking over their shoulder. While I wish every Aes Sedai were as dedicated as Moir and Verin, I highly doubt that is the case. And given the amount of freedom they have to manage themselves, are you really surprised?

 

I think this is exactly why the Aes Sedai of the AoL all had separate careers apart from being Aes Sedai. Because if being Aes Sedai is your only "job" then there will be some trudge and toil to it, and if no one can really force an Aes Sedai to do it, they may start to slack more and more until all they do is sit around drinking tea.

 

This doesn't mean Aes Sedai are lazy people, or incompetent, just that the way the institution is currently set up has developed this culture. A few policy changes could fix it. Give each Ajah things they MUST be doing, like quotas of some sort. Give them a reason to stay sharp. Like the military, if there's nothing to do then do a mock battle or mock negotiation to stay sharp. OP tournaments anyone?

 

Edit: I guess it'd be more like an OP rodeo, since they'd be showcasing various skills for various tasks. Air weave hog tie and such ;)

[plague fiend]

XXX47 had posted, some time ago very interesting topic Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?. To answer to it here, no I don’t think they are. First is political office, a head of organization of magic users and a state that they had established, a head of a superpower that dominated its (very isolated) part of world for millennia. Second is a messiah, a prophesied savior of the world, an occurrence unprecedented in Age, who on top of his metaphysical clout have acquired control of significant part (perhaps greater part) of first’s territory (sphere of influence) and have much greater resources at his disposal.

Reading 20+ pages of discussion I started to wonder: perhaps it would more appropriate to compare position of Amirlyn to some other political position? Well, it would certainly be interesting. So there it is: are Amirlyn and Empress equal? If yes, why? If no, then which is more important and again why? And if you want to ad what makes institution, group, or character important in series – even better.

 

They are equal. Neither really matters. Each thinks that they are indispensable and they are both wrong. The world would get along fine without them. Pawns.

[Himiko]

It's a tricky question.

 

If we take the Amyrlin Seat and the Seanchan Empress as they are at the start of the series, I would say undoubtedly the Seachan Empress surpasses the Amyrlin. Not just in terms of firepower- she not only commands every known (and, in the case of sul'dam, unknown) female channeler in the Seanchan territories, she is also in direct command of all of their armies, and the head of their political structure. She seems to be considered almost Godlike by the people. The only place where the Amyrlin wields similar power is in Tar Valon- whilst she does hold a great deal of political sway, and whilst leaders would answer a summons from her, she is NOT their direct, or even indirect superior. One cannot argue that the Amyrlin, at the outset of the series, probably holds the most political power of anyone in Randland, but channeling groups exist without her knowledge or leadership, she has no claim to the world's armies, and she has political influence in most countries, rather than direct political power.

 

Now, however, the Forsaken have been playing around in their institutions and things have got a little crazy. Tuon is the Seanchan Empress, but is not in direct control of the Seanchan homelands. Her forces are still formidable, as AS have discovered, and in some ways, are becoming more deadly now that her damane can learn Travelling, and she does hold territories in Randland, where she probably has a good deal more political control than the Amyrlin, but these nations are nothing compared to the Seanchan Empire as a whole. Egwene is the Amyrlin seat of a reunited tower, but the world has seen the WT divided, it has seen the rise of several other channeling groups- including male channelers, for the first time organised officially. Not to mention, the Dragon Reborn himself, another channeler that wields immense political influence. Both have been reduced from their previous power. But is it enough to give the Amyrlin the edge? Hmmm... The Amyrlin theoretically has many more limits- the Hall are there to limit her power, and as I've said before, her political power lies in influence and manipulation, she cannot simply commandeer the armies of Randland, whereas the Seachan Empress CAN command the armies of where she holds- those that aren't fighting against her, anyway. Neither would accept the superiority of the other over them, but I can't see them accepting each other as equals. I'd say that, in theory, the Amyrlin currently has a wider sphere of influence than the Empress, but the Empress holds more direct political power. This may change, however, in AMoL, depending on who sides with who, how various battles go, how the Dragon's Peace works out, etc. We'll see.

[XXX]

 

 

I also don't really think that Kiruna's description during Dumai's Wells show her to be such an experienced warrior. She sure is brave and strong-willed, but shouldn't an experienced soldier run from cover to cover and blast enemies from afar rather than stroll unconcernedly through the battle field with head high and risk that any stray arrow or spear may kill her? It seemed to me to show rather her personal courage, pride and lack of sense of self-preservation rahter than any special battle skills.

 

She had to put herself in danger to use the OP... lucky for her the Shaido WO's did not have any skill in fighting with OP then. IF she tried that stunt against channelers trained only to fight like the Damane or the Asha'man she would come to a very sorry end.

[Stitch]

Personally I am inclined to say no since from many perspectives (such as One Power (though with the Aiel and Sea folk this is less sure), Military and Economic power) the Empress is far greater; however if one is to look purely at their political influence within Randland... at the moment I would suggest that the current Amyrlin is able to exert greater political influence within Randland than the current Empress, however at least partially this is because the empress has not really attempted to get involved in political matters over in Randland... with the exception of attempting to invade everyone and then later attempting to negotiate a peace treaty with the Dragon.

[Suttree]

and Economic power) the Empress is far greater;

 

What makes you come to that conclusion? At this point Tuon controls Altara along with parts of Tarabon and Amadacia. Tar Valon is the center of trade for all of the Westlands and the largest economic powerhouse in Randland.

[Stitch]

Are they now? They might be a center of trade (though that is probably not as prominent as you might imagine) yet they control almost no land, so their agricultural production would be reduced, as would their mining opportunities etc etc etc. The only thing they have going for them are tithes paid to them by the borderlanders and the trade moving along that river (which there are several ways around the tower - such as off-loading goods upstream/downstream then moving them around the island by wagon and loading again to avoid duties) not only that, but in reality, that river would probably not be used by many groups, except for trade along the illian <> andor <> central borderland corridor and the only goods really passing through TV would be seasonal (mainly agricultural) goods that would otherwise spoil.