Are Rand Al'Thor and Lews Therin Telamon the same person?

[hazelkrs1]

The nature of Rand Sedai

 

I'm taking this argument over here in hopes that it will revitalize my interest, that I might possibly gain support from people who have easier access to quotes, and because I wanted to

 

The title of the thread says it all, there seems to be some controversy on whether or not Rand is LTT. I contend that he is because the last two books seem to scream this in my opinion, at least from his own pov's, but it does seem to slightly contradict a quote of RJ's where he said every incarnation of a soul is a different person.

 

Just to give further fuel for everyone's fiery arguments (Burn me!):

 

- How does Rand's situation compare to the other Heroes of the Horn?

 

- Where did Rand get LTT's memories from?

 

- Does Mat's own predicament with abstract memories correlate to Rand's situation?

 

- Is being ta'veren an intrinsic property of the Dragon soul?

 

- Did Brandon Sanderson alter the direction Robert Jordan was going with this concept?

[Superhal]

I believe BS is following RJ's plan. In KoD (the last RJ book) there is the foundation for merging of past lives with present as a known phenomenon.

[iChuk]

My personal opinion, absolutely without any evidence in quotes etc., is that they started as two different people, then through some inexplicable phenomenon joined souls/personalities/memories/everything else as a gradual seeping process throughout the books culminating in VoG, which leaves them as one individual person who is different from either original. I could also believe they've been the same throughout the series, but I can't buy that they're two completely separate people any more.

[hazelkrs1]

It's probably evident by my first post, but just to make it more clear: I believe Rand and LTT's consciousness are the same, however the part that was aware of a past life was submerged into the subconscious where it lied dormant. When Rand found out about his destiny, this repressed part of his consciousness started to emerge but Rand fractured it off from his own in a subconscious attempt to both deny who he was and to possibly prevent the onset of madness. When we first start hearing LTT's voice inside Rand's head it isn't truly aware or perceptive of the outside world; it still believes itself to be dead. Once Rand has his epiphany, he is able to integrate this fractured consciousness into his own and realizes he's always been Lews Therin and Rand. There are many examples in real life of people fracturing a part of their consciousness/personality, usually due to some traumatic event that they are not emotionally able to cope with at the time.

[Never]

What Despothera says makes a lot of sense for me as well. They were, and always had been, one!

[WhiskyJack]

Right down to size of their...you know.

[FarShainMael]

"They were not two men, and never had been." - VoG

[Lightflame]

"They were not two men, and never had been." - VoG

Exactly what I was going to say! Rand knew he was mad, he was just trying to blame the madness on "Lews Therin".

[Mr Ares]

Every incarnation of a soul is a new person. (I'm talking about in WoT - you can believe whatever you like about reality.) In this respect, Rand is no different to anyone else - he was born as a new person, not a previous incarnation. He grew up as Rand. LTT died. He never came back from the dead. What appeared in Rand's head is more a ghost than a man. It is memories, fragments of personality, not a whole man (and in that respect it is indeed true that they are not two men).

 

As for some of Despothera's other points: Rand is a Hero of the Horn (according to RJ), therefore in nature he is no different - each incarnation is a new person, and while Rand's circumstances might be unusual, he is still a new incarnation;

Rand's access to his past life memories is a result of a rare form of madness (per Semi in KoD);

Mat's situation has some superficial differences, but is fundamentally the same - he is not those people in his memories, he is Mat Cauthon with other men's memories;

no-one is born ta'veren (per RJ), and Rand only became so shortly before the start of the series (also per RJ);

as for whether BS altered the direction RJ was going, I would say if he did so he did so in ignorance. It certainly is conceivable that RJ's notes were ambiguous on the subject, and so BS used his own judgement.

[Alternate34]

"They were not two men, and never had been." - VoG

 

That does not mean that LTT was never a separate person from Rand. It just means the LTT voice was never a separate person from Rand.

 

Rand has the memories of LTT. He does not have his personality. He shares a soul with LTT, but is a different person. I would think the RJ's statement would give more than pause. Here are concrete reasons they are different people:

 

(1) Most important: they occupy different bodies.

 

(2) RJ indicated that souls rewoven by the Wheel are not the same person. Just a soul that transmigrated.

 

(3) Rand does not display any knowledge of the Age of Legends until he becomes t'averen. The reason this indicates that they are not one person is that he gains the memories as the Wheel wills it. It is great to have a theory that Rand repressed his knowledge until he found out he was the Dragon Reborn. That is rank speculation. There is no evidence, and the absence of evidence can be taken as argument against Rand having LTT's memories. Rand (or Perrin, or Mat) didn't have any weirdness until the Eye of the World. Rand never recalls having recollections of the Age of Legends prior to his quest. Mat never speaks the Old Tongue until they set off. It strongly implies that Rand has LTT's memories because he is of the same soul and became t'averen, not that Rand was constantly repressing those memories.

 

(4) Having someone else's memories does not mean being the same person. Mat shows this.

 

(5) Counter examples like Moridin, Osangar, and Arangar are different. In that case, the Dark One has taken the souls and plopped them in a new body. The differences are clear. From the outset, they realize that their souls have been placed in different bodies. There is no aging or maturing like in Rand's case (unless you think baby Rand was also repressing his LTT memories).

 

(6) If Rand were the same person as LTT, he would be repressing his LTT memories as a baby, toddler, child, pre-teen, and teenager. Think about other Heroes of the Horn. They all live out similar lives to their previous counterparts, just with different names and somewhat different outcomes. Each of their incarnations are different people. One reason for this is that they are not born with memories of their past. Rand was not born LTT.

 

The repression theory gets cut by Occam's Razor because of this point. In order to assume that Rand is the same person as LTT, one has to not only posit that Rand repressed his LTT memories until he was woven as t'averen and started to channel, it must also assume that if these memories weren't repressed, he would have been born an infant with the ability to remember LTT's life to the degree Rand does now OR come up with a convoluted theory about how the human brain in the WoT-verse creates several mechanisms to prevent this, slowly revealing memories over time. There is no evidence of this.

[Guest Alec8888]

I think they are different people yet all people are made from the same "fabric", similar to the idea of collective unconscious. Rand is the Dragon Reborn and is able to access the memories in the face of obliteration. He is conscious of some degree of his own madness and this i think leads him to believe that he is LTT.

 

My first post so don't be to harsh if it sounds crazy!

[Suttree]

The cosmology of the WoT is very clear. Every incarnation of the soul is a new person. LTT died, the soul was reborn as Rand in a different body. Taint induced madness allowed some memories to seep in but they are not the same person. The VOG quote refers to the voice, nothing more.

[MatBloodyCauthon]

It seems difficult to say whether or not they are the same person both sides have good arguments. I think they weren't the same until VoG after that they're personalities merged. In ToM Rand is no longer the same Rand he seem's different which would suggest a merging of some sort. Also when Rand single handedly wiped out the trolloc army in Maridon Naeff say's "I've never seen so many weaves before". Rand was always powerful in the OP and skilled but he never did anything even close to that previously. In KoD when the trolloc force attacks the manor house Rand is in, it was only 100K and he had to have help from Logain and the other Asha'Man.. Another point is that LTT is the one that grabbed Saidin at the manor house and wove the Blossoms of Death, Deathgates, Arrow's of Fire etc. So by evidence in usage of the power and personality difference I would say they are one now but before they were not.

 

Note: Not sure where all the other abilities came from like driving darkfriends mad and being able to tell who is a darkfriend.

[Kahsm]

My personal opinion, absolutely without any evidence in quotes etc., is that they started as two different people, then through some inexplicable phenomenon joined souls/personalities/memories/everything else as a gradual seeping process throughout the books culminating in VoG, which leaves them as one individual person who is different from either original. I could also believe they've been the same throughout the series, but I can't buy that they're two completely separate people any more.

 

This is your problem right here. LTT is dead. Dead, dead, dead, dead, dead. He cannot, and will not, come back. He is dead. It is not the soul of LTT, that just happened to be that soul's last known persona before Rand. So when you say "I can't buy they're two completely separate people any more. You're suggesting LTT still exists, or still existed before some merge. But he is dead, so they cannot merge, no part of LTT exists except memories and personality. Rand merely placed LTT's memories into chronological order with his own, he already had the soul (as defined in RJ's universe where it DOES NOT define a person). That doesn't change who Rand is. It doesn't change who Rand was.

 

Rand's own insight isn't even wrong. He said they were always one, yeah cause LTT never existed. It was "One person with two personalities" - quote RJ. Rand just accepted his LTT ancestry that he happens to have access to through some presumed taint-based degradation of the space-time barrier, possibly even held more "stable" by the gold stuff in his brain. Hell, off the cuff crazy speculation, maybe Rand channeled that "healing-ish" weave like thing when he destroyed the Choden Kal. He's done lots of stuff inadvertently.

 

And before you go "Well Nynaeve can't see saidin, well duh. But she can see a fireball made by Saidin, so this could just be the "bandaid" he made for his insanity.

[Kahsm]

It seems difficult to say whether or not they are the same person both sides have good arguments. I think they weren't the same until VoG after that they're personalities merged. In ToM Rand is no longer the same Rand he seem's different which would suggest a merging of some sort. Also when Rand single handedly wiped out the trolloc army in Maridon Naeff say's "I've never seen so many weaves before". Rand was always powerful in the OP and skilled but he never did anything even close to that previously. In KoD when the trolloc force attacks the manor house Rand is in, it was only 100K and he had to have help from Logain and the other Asha'Man.. Another point is that LTT is the one that grabbed Saidin at the manor house and wove the Blossoms of Death, Deathgates, Arrow's of Fire etc. So by evidence in usage of the power and personality difference I would say they are one now but before they were not.

 

Note: Not sure where all the other abilities came from like driving darkfriends mad and being able to tell who is a darkfriend.

 

Oh, good lord, this again. Here's 14 pages of this heated discussion about his power level at Maradon and his various other "special" powers and why or why not he is something special.

[hazelkrs1]

Every incarnation of a soul is a new person. (I'm talking about in WoT - you can believe whatever you like about reality.) In this respect, Rand is no different to anyone else - he was born as a new person, not a previous incarnation. He grew up as Rand. LTT died. He never came back from the dead. What appeared in Rand's head is more a ghost than a man. It is memories, fragments of personality, not a whole man (and in that respect it is indeed true that they are not two men).

 

As for some of Despothera's other points: Rand is a Hero of the Horn (according to RJ), therefore in nature he is no different - each incarnation is a new person, and while Rand's circumstances might be unusual, he is still a new incarnation;

Rand's access to his past life memories is a result of a rare form of madness (per Semi in KoD);

Mat's situation has some superficial differences, but is fundamentally the same - he is not those people in his memories, he is Mat Cauthon with other men's memories;

no-one is born ta'veren (per RJ), and Rand only became so shortly before the start of the series (also per RJ);

as for whether BS altered the direction RJ was going, I would say if he did so he did so in ignorance. It certainly is conceivable that RJ's notes were ambiguous on the subject, and so BS used his own judgement.

 

Just because someone dies in this series doesn't mean they lose all their memories, experiences, outlooks, etc. If that was true then when the DO is transmigrating the souls of the killed Forsaken then they would be reborn as blank slates. They definitely have awareness of the lives they've led before they were killed, before they were sealed in the bore. Also the Heroes of the Horn remember each of their past lives in TAR, and nothing indicates that what part of them resides in TAR is anything but just the soul. So we have clear indication that in this universe, the soul does carry more than just the metaphysical sense of being that we think about in our world, instead it carries with it the essence of the person, and memories. We can't really determine why it is that HotH do not remember who they are once they're spun out, but it might just be a control mechanism put there by the author to keep things in a more controlled state. So I think that the argument that when LTT died, his persona dies with him is false. His soul carried his entire essence, and that's why you see Rand inherits a lot more than just his memories.

 

Rand definitely acts differently after veins of gold, and it's fairly obvious that he has a much more arrogant nature about him. I believe this is from LTT. If all he ever had was the memories without the personality changes, I would be slightly more suspect of the statements made in ToM regarding him being LTT. I also don't believe the memories resulted from his madness, and if your only source is Semi after she's just been captured I would say that it would need a lot more support. Semi, like any other Forsaken, had orders from the DO to cause Rand to suffer. Once she'd been captured, she had a defiant enough spirit to still try and accomplish this, and one way to do this is to drive a wedge between him and his allies. If everyone believes Rand to be insane, they are much less likely to both trust him and care for him. Plus, I still don't understand how madness would implant someone elses memories inside your head. If you're doubting the validity of those memories, that's one thing; if you assume that they ARE LTT's memories though, then how would a psychological phenomena be able to accomplish something like this? Many crazy people believe that they could predict the future, but that doesn't mean they actually can.

 

"They were not two men, and never had been." - VoG

 

That does not mean that LTT was never a separate person from Rand. It just means the LTT voice was never a separate person from Rand.

 

Rand has the memories of LTT. He does not have his personality. He shares a soul with LTT, but is a different person. I would think the RJ's statement would give more than pause. Here are concrete reasons they are different people:

 

(1) Most important: they occupy different bodies.

 

(2) RJ indicated that souls rewoven by the Wheel are not the same person. Just a soul that transmigrated.

 

(3) Rand does not display any knowledge of the Age of Legends until he becomes t'averen. The reason this indicates that they are not one person is that he gains the memories as the Wheel wills it. It is great to have a theory that Rand repressed his knowledge until he found out he was the Dragon Reborn. That is rank speculation. There is no evidence, and the absence of evidence can be taken as argument against Rand having LTT's memories. Rand (or Perrin, or Mat) didn't have any weirdness until the Eye of the World. Rand never recalls having recollections of the Age of Legends prior to his quest. Mat never speaks the Old Tongue until they set off. It strongly implies that Rand has LTT's memories because he is of the same soul and became t'averen, not that Rand was constantly repressing those memories.

 

(4) Having someone else's memories does not mean being the same person. Mat shows this.

 

(5) Counter examples like Moridin, Osangar, and Arangar are different. In that case, the Dark One has taken the souls and plopped them in a new body. The differences are clear. From the outset, they realize that their souls have been placed in different bodies. There is no aging or maturing like in Rand's case (unless you think baby Rand was also repressing his LTT memories).

 

(6) If Rand were the same person as LTT, he would be repressing his LTT memories as a baby, toddler, child, pre-teen, and teenager. Think about other Heroes of the Horn. They all live out similar lives to their previous counterparts, just with different names and somewhat different outcomes. Each of their incarnations are different people. One reason for this is that they are not born with memories of their past. Rand was not born LTT.

 

The repression theory gets cut by Occam's Razor because of this point. In order to assume that Rand is the same person as LTT, one has to not only posit that Rand repressed his LTT memories until he was woven as t'averen and started to channel, it must also assume that if these memories weren't repressed, he would have been born an infant with the ability to remember LTT's life to the degree Rand does now OR come up with a convoluted theory about how the human brain in the WoT-verse creates several mechanisms to prevent this, slowly revealing memories over time. There is no evidence of this.

 

I don't believe that them being in a different body has any relevance. Osan'gar, Aran'gar, and Cyndane are all examples of people that have had different bodies but are essentially still the same person. Flesh is just that, flesh.

 

I agree RJ's quote muddles the issue, but I think it's very likely that either he was refering to people in general, and the Dragon is a special case, or that he was wrong in the quote. It's even possible that the rules of the world itself might be somewhat contradictory, this is very possible when speaking of a universe that spawned inside someone's imagination. Either way, I can see why BS wrote the outcome of that scene as he did, that's how I would have done it. Nothing else would have been as cathartic and would have tied all the loose ends together so neatly.

 

Obviously I'm speculating in the case of Rand possibly repressing memories, and that's not really anything which we even could have evidence of, so the lack thereof doesn't mean anything. Nothing short of the author stating that he was repressing those memories, and why be so blunt about something when being vague and mysterious about it will lead to much more speculaon and interest in your characters? And Rand has a lot more than LTT's memories, there's the voices, the personality changes; many nuances were brought over with LTT.

 

Yes, in my theory baby Rand would be "supressing" those memories. Not consciously, obviously, but subconsciously this could have easily have happened. For all we know, reincarnation could exist, and there could be a little window of time when you're an infant where you do still have recollections of your past life (hey, it worked for Baby Geniuses). More likely they weren't really actively suppressed at all, they just faded in the background because there was no impetus, no stimulus present to have Rand recalling them. Remembering something isn't truly passive, you don't constantly remember stuff that happened 10 years ago, but if an outside stimulus provokes you to recall a certain event, or if you were reminiscing of a fond memory. There's nothing fond about the memories of LTT's past life, so it's easy to see him not purposefully recalling them if he didn't have to.

 

The only clear indicator that seperate incarnations of HotH are seperate people is Birgitte's pov, and she could easily be wrong as she doesn't seem to be the philosophical type. The RJ quote potentially could have not applied to HotH, at least not in quite the same way.

 

Occam's Razor doesn't apply here because were talking about a fantasy situation here, this world has it's own presupposed construct of rules, and in many cases the rules are very arbitrary and even broken. And anyways, all of my speculation exists for is to make it clear why Rand believes he is LTT, as it states all over his pov's after veins of gold.

 

My personal opinion, absolutely without any evidence in quotes etc., is that they started as two different people, then through some inexplicable phenomenon joined souls/personalities/memories/everything else as a gradual seeping process throughout the books culminating in VoG, which leaves them as one individual person who is different from either original. I could also believe they've been the same throughout the series, but I can't buy that they're two completely separate people any more.

 

This is your problem right here. LTT is dead. Dead, dead, dead, dead, dead. He cannot, and will not, come back. He is dead. It is not the soul of LTT, that just happened to be that soul's last known persona before Rand. So when you say "I can't buy they're two completely separate people any more. You're suggesting LTT still exists, or still existed before some merge. But he is dead, so they cannot merge, no part of LTT exists except memories and personality. Rand merely placed LTT's memories into chronological order with his own, he already had the soul (as defined in RJ's universe where it DOES NOT define a person). That doesn't change who Rand is. It doesn't change who Rand was.

 

Rand's own insight isn't even wrong. He said they were always one, yeah cause LTT never existed. It was "One person with two personalities" - quote RJ. Rand just accepted his LTT ancestry that he happens to have access to through some presumed taint-based degradation of the space-time barrier, possibly even held more "stable" by the gold stuff in his brain. Hell, off the cuff crazy speculation, maybe Rand channeled that "healing-ish" weave like thing when he destroyed the Choden Kal. He's done lots of stuff inadvertently.

 

And before you go "Well Nynaeve can't see saidin, well duh. But she can see a fireball made by Saidin, so this could just be the "bandaid" he made for his insanity.

 

Before I address your first point, I'd just like to say that you're REALLY stretching when you start bringin in stuff like "...presumed taint-based degradation of the space-time barrier..." I mean, this world is not the same as our own, why would it be necessary to try to explain something in the book with references to abstract notions of our own universe's cosmology? And even if this was the case, why does no other male channeler experience anything close to this? Mazrim Taim has apparantly been channeling FAR longer than Rand has, and it's pretty evident that he's already insane, yet there's no reference to him breaking the space-time barrier, as you put it.

 

I agree Rand has madness inside his head, what Nyneave thinks when she's delving him confirms this, even though it should be obvious even before if you examine his behavior. He has more pressure put on him than anyone else in the world, and that alone could drive a lesser man insane. However, I don't think it's possible that the madness caused his memories to spout because LTT's voice in his head is plainly more of an actual entity than it is just the internal ramblings of a crazy person. Once again, he has a lot more than LTT's memories, he devlops similar mannerisms, he has similar vices, he conspires in much the same way and has the same weaknesses. His personality is distinct from LTT's at first because the nature vs. nurture argument comes into play, he was raised differently this time.

 

About Rand's own insight: Who is he referring to when he says "We"? As you say, he believes "they" are the same person, who is he referring to? Himself, and...? If his epiphany resulted in him being "cured" of his madness so to speak, at least in that it doesn't effect him anymore, then he wouldn't refer to the voice in his head as if it were a seperate entity. He wouldn't even say he was LTT, just that he's not crazy anymore and he knows what he needs to do. He is obviously aware that the voice in his head was a distinct personality seperate from his own, and they are no longer distinct personalities. He says they always have been the same person, which makes me think that instead of the voice actually truly being LTT, it was just representing LTT in Rand/LTT's own consciousness.

 

On to the main point, as I stated above it's clearly evident that in this series, when someone dies their identity doesn't necessarily die with them. Just because LTT died thousands of years ago doesn't mean a part of him can't resurface. But we probably have an impass here because of a more metaphysical conondrum: what makes a person who he is? You apparantly believe that it has something to do with the physical form you happen to have, I think it lies with what is inside. You say all that's left of LTT is his memories and his personality (I would also definitely include his soul, because him and Rand very clearly have the same soul), well what else is there to a person? I suppose you can bring your own theological perspective to bear, I'm probably bringing mine into it somewhat I'm sure. If the essence of someone remains intact, if they still have the capability of thought, emotion, etc. then I think it's still the same person, even if they've passed away from their mortal remains.

 

Fortunately though, we shouldn't have to do this as Rand's pov is pretty clear that he believes himself and LTT to be the same person. He has been wrong about other things not having to do with him, but this is something much more intimate and personal for him, and I tend to believe him in this regard.

[OptimusPrime]

Not the same person originally, but for all effects and purposes having become one person. Lews Therins voice was never in Rands head, Rand and Lews Therin are two seperate people from the start, but Rand inherits all of Lews Therins memories and experiences, and because of that, his personality. If you live through an event it affects you, Rand pretty much has experienced Lews Therins whole life... thats as far as it goes.

 

But he didnt just become one with Lews Therin, he became one with more than just that.

[FarShainMael]

"They were not two men, and never had been." - VoG

 

That does not mean that LTT was never a separate person from Rand. It just means the LTT voice was never a separate person from Rand.

 

The voice was arguably a Rand-construct, but the memories, the knowledge of certain weaves such as Deathgates, and so on, were manifestations of LTT-the-person.

 

I'm wondering whether I should change my vote to option 2.. I might, but for that 'never had been'.

[Kahsm]

My personal opinion, absolutely without any evidence in quotes etc., is that they started as two different people, then through some inexplicable phenomenon joined souls/personalities/memories/everything else as a gradual seeping process throughout the books culminating in VoG, which leaves them as one individual person who is different from either original. I could also believe they've been the same throughout the series, but I can't buy that they're two completely separate people any more.

 

This is your problem right here. LTT is dead. Dead, dead, dead, dead, dead. He cannot, and will not, come back. He is dead. It is not the soul of LTT, that just happened to be that soul's last known persona before Rand. So when you say "I can't buy they're two completely separate people any more. You're suggesting LTT still exists, or still existed before some merge. But he is dead, so they cannot merge, no part of LTT exists except memories and personality. Rand merely placed LTT's memories into chronological order with his own, he already had the soul (as defined in RJ's universe where it DOES NOT define a person). That doesn't change who Rand is. It doesn't change who Rand was.

 

Rand's own insight isn't even wrong. He said they were always one, yeah cause LTT never existed. It was "One person with two personalities" - quote RJ. Rand just accepted his LTT ancestry that he happens to have access to through some presumed taint-based degradation of the space-time barrier, possibly even held more "stable" by the gold stuff in his brain. Hell, off the cuff crazy speculation, maybe Rand channeled that "healing-ish" weave like thing when he destroyed the Choden Kal. He's done lots of stuff inadvertently.

 

And before you go "Well Nynaeve can't see saidin, well duh. But she can see a fireball made by Saidin, so this could just be the "bandaid" he made for his insanity.

 

Before I address your first point, I'd just like to say that you're REALLY stretching when you start bringin in stuff like "...presumed taint-based degradation of the space-time barrier..." I mean, this world is not the same as our own, why would it be necessary to try to explain something in the book with references to abstract notions of our own universe's cosmology? And even if this was the case, why does no other male channeler experience anything close to this? Mazrim Taim has apparantly been channeling FAR longer than Rand has, and it's pretty evident that he's already insane, yet there's no reference to him breaking the space-time barrier, as you put it.

 

Uhh, there's no "Evidence" that any other male channelers see Fades in all the shadows either. Just because it's not written doesn't mean it doesn't happen. No channeler in the books channeled anywhere near as much of the tainted Saidin as Rand. As confirmed by Nynaeve when she delved him and saw all the taint. He cleansed Siadin by channeling the taint through the CK. He used Callandor a couple times with tainted Saidin. So it's entirely possible that others have a bit of old memories slipping in. Terez once wrote up a thingy showing how each time he used a lot of OP, the memories got worse.

 

As for space-time, I was using it as a general construct name for whatever it might be in WOT. I wasn't trying to claim the physics are the same. The simple point was that the taint is a cause of the voices (at least part of it). The technical details of how it works is irrelevant to the point.

Question: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

 

I agree Rand has madness inside his head, what Nyneave thinks when she's delving him confirms this, even though it should be obvious even before if you examine his behavior. He has more pressure put on him than anyone else in the world, and that alone could drive a lesser man insane. However, I don't think it's possible that the madness caused his memories to spout because LTT's voice in his head is plainly more of an actual entity than it is just the internal ramblings of a crazy person. Once again, he has a lot more than LTT's memories, he devlops similar mannerisms, he has similar vices, he conspires in much the same way and has the same weaknesses. His personality is distinct from LTT's at first because the nature vs. nurture argument comes into play, he was raised differently this time.

See the Brandon quote above where he says the taint is a factor, also see this quote:

Q: The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

RJ: They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

Obviously, there's some other factor RJ and Brandon won't tell us that explains the memories. maybe only Heroes of the Horn can access past memories, or something like that. But Rand's own realization that they were never seperate suggests that they were never two individuals. Now you could take that indivudal statement to mean that they were always one person. But I would say given the rest of the evidence (That quote wehre RJ says they were 2 personalities in 1 body) suggests they were, and still are two different people. Rand just happened to "Accept" the LTT memories into his own.

 

And you're right, Rand does change, but we have no evidence he acts as LTT did exactly, or thinks the same way. We only know he's different. If you add 300 years of memories, knowledge, learning, you would very likely act differently. Egwene mentions his diction/grammar is better, but that's just simple knowledge of language. It doesn't mean he became LTT, it just means Rand is influenced by more memories than he was before.

 

About Rand's own insight: Who is he referring to when he says "We"? As you say, he believes "they" are the same person, who is he referring to? Himself, and...? If his epiphany resulted in him being "cured" of his madness so to speak, at least in that it doesn't effect him anymore, then he wouldn't refer to the voice in his head as if it were a seperate entity. He wouldn't even say he was LTT, just that he's not crazy anymore and he knows what he needs to do. He is obviously aware that the voice in his head was a distinct personality separate from his own, and they are no longer distinct personalities. He says they always have been the same person, which makes me think that instead of the voice actually truly being LTT, it was just representing LTT in Rand/LTT's own consciousness.

 

I think you're taking him too literally. Or maybe not literally enough... because if you said "we are the same person" then obviously the we doesn't refer to anyone because the point of that statement is to explain why 'we' doesn't exist. I could rephrase it as, "Because they are the same, there is no 'we'". And the Asha'man who saw all the Fades realized he was crazy, he just couldn't help it. Rand knew he had this voice in his head, and he often tried to talk to it. Pre-VoG he was thinking LTT was a separate person trying to take him over (the struggle when he channeled). At VoG he realized he was wrong. That it was just a bunch of memories/personality and he just put it into context with his own. The channeling takeover was just musvle memory from the LTT personality. Like if someone throws something at you, and you raise your arms instinctively to either block or catch it. Rand didn't know he had gained that level of channeling skill and was fighting it. That's why he said we were never separate, because he realized it wasn't sentient.

 

On to the main point, as I stated above it's clearly evident that in this series, when someone dies their identity doesn't necessarily die with them. Just because LTT died thousands of years ago doesn't mean a part of him can't resurface. But we probably have an impass here because of a more metaphysical conondrum: what makes a person who he is? You apparantly believe that it has something to do with the physical form you happen to have, I think it lies with what is inside. You say all that's left of LTT is his memories and his personality (I would also definitely include his soul, because him and Rand very clearly have the same soul), well what else is there to a person? I suppose you can bring your own theological perspective to bear, I'm probably bringing mine into it somewhat I'm sure. If the essence of someone remains intact, if they still have the capability of thought, emotion, etc. then I think it's still the same person, even if they've passed away from their mortal remains.

 

While I kind of agree with the philosophical impass this discussion creates, I would suggest LTT doesn't have the capability of thought, emotion, etc. The voice was Rand having reactions to things based on the LTT memories he didn't recognize yet. So LTT flips out when he sees Taim right? Well that was actually Rand flipping out, but he didn't have all the memories to know why, so the thought seemed foreign to him. Similar to how I see the channeling "take over" as muscle memory reactions to things that Rand doesn't recognize.

 

It's like if you sat down at a piano and could instantly play some epic song. You'd likely think your hands were possessed or something like that. After VoG everything is put in context and he understands.

 

Fortunately though, we shouldn't have to do this as Rand's pov is pretty clear that he believes himself and LTT to be the same person. He has been wrong about other things not having to do with him, but this is something much more intimate and personal for him, and I tend to believe him in this regard.

 

Well, he believes he and the LTT "voice" are the same person, it's not clear he's referring to LTT the original person. I mean the claim to the Sedai title and his "I'm older than you!" is because all that happened to him now. But again, I see it as it happened to 2 people now, not just 1 (cause rand imported the experiences).

 

It's like if you made a clone, then 20 years into the clone's life you imported the memories of the original guy but left the clone's own memories. They are still 2 different "people". Just in the WOT case the original guy is dead. Obviously in my example they could co-exist and clearly demonstrate two different people, but in WOT they couldn't co-exist because they share a soul. But we know from RJ this doesn't kill my conclusion because he said using the same soul does not mean the people are the same.

[Elan Tedronai]

Nope.

 

Both LTT and rand are two different persons. Two different ways of upbringing, ethics, morality and behaviour. 2 different personalities.

 

doesnt matter if they share the same soul. They are both different from each other and hence they are not the same person

[WhiskyJack]

They are different because given same set of problems, they probably will react differently.

[hazelkrs1]

@ Kael Pyralis: Oooh yeah were making some great headway here! I loved many of your points in your last post because I feel they're addressing the central issue very well, and they aren't that far from my own actually.

 

As for space-time, I was using it as a general construct name for whatever it might be in WOT. I wasn't trying to claim the physics are the same. The simple point was that the taint is a cause of the voices (at least part of it). The technical details of how it works is irrelevant to the point.

 

You're right, I shouldn't have called you out on the space-time thingy cause Im sure you were just kinda usin one of the closest examples we might have of how something might be accomplished like this. And I see more of where you're coming from with the whole taint creating the memories thing. I still don't feel that the taint itself would give the memories, but that Rand already had the memories and the taint did start to make Rand go crazy, which after a bit spawned the voice and "LTT" persona inside Rand's head. It even goes along with my theory because Rand didn't really experience any crazy traumatic event early on which would have caused him to fracture personalities, but the taint is a very likely culprit for this. I also agree the voice is more of a construct than LTT's actual personality, however it would probably closely resemble how LTT would actually behave if he stuck around after losing his mind because Rand does have LTT's personality within him and most likely his madness was using this to create the construct very well.

 

See the Brandon quote above where he says the taint is a factor, also see this quote:

 

Q: The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

RJ: They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

 

Obviously, there's some other factor RJ and Brandon won't tell us that explains the memories. maybe only Heroes of the Horn can access past memories, or something like that. But Rand's own realization that they were never seperate suggests that they were never two individuals. Now you could take that indivudal statement to mean that they were always one person. But I would say given the rest of the evidence (That quote wehre RJ says they were 2 personalities in 1 body) suggests they were, and still are two different people. Rand just happened to "Accept" the LTT memories into his own.

 

And you're right, Rand does change, but we have no evidence he acts as LTT did exactly, or thinks the same way. We only know he's different. If you add 300 years of memories, knowledge, learning, you would very likely act differently. Egwene mentions his diction/grammar is better, but that's just simple knowledge of language. It doesn't mean he became LTT, it just means Rand is influenced by more memories than he was before.

 

 

Once again, we're getting very close to seeing eye to eye here, and thank you for the RJ quote, it helps move this discussion along even better. It makes perfect sense that for every incarnation, a different personality will develop because it (the personality) is most definitely a product of the environment it was brought up in (Nature 0, Nurture 1). This idea also coincides with what you were saying, Elan. But my contention is that 2 different personalities do not make 2 seperate people necessarily. LTT's voice, construct or not, obviously represent a distinct personality from Rand's. But because of the shared soul, the essence of each is the same, so if they hadn't had such signifigant difference in the morals instilled at a young age and other environmental factors, the personalities would not be so distinct after all.

 

Take for example how often people say "I was a different person back then" when referring to their youthful, more exuberant years. It's true they've gained many new perspectives, new morals, ethics, and a sense of responsibility they didn't have at a younger age, but that doesn't mean they're literally a different person. Just the same person with new perspectives, morals, ethics, etc. If you really did become a different person because of perspectives and wisdom gained after the fact, then it would be completely unethical and downright abhorrent to execute someone on death row who becomes saved or otherwise atones for their sins (regardless of how you feel about capital punishment, which I'm not crazy about). In that scenario, if someone is on death row and genuinely atones for their sins with their higher power, and regrets with every fiber of their being what they did, I'm sure it's fair to say they wish they could reverse, or undo, the events which led them to being sentenced to execution. But they can't, and they can't change the fact that they are the ones who committed those crimes.

 

Another great reference which is relevant to this matter is one of my favorite novels, The Count of Monte Christo. The protagonist goes through several drastically different environments which all have profound effects on who he is. He's raised by an unwealthy family, imprisoned in a nightmarish dungeon, and then lives (spoiler alert hehe) as an extremely wealthy count after his escape. In all these seperate instances though, even though he is most definitely affected by each phase of his life, he still retains the same qualities he's had his whole life. He (his personality at least) adapts, but his essence remains the same. Likewise, Rand/LTT has adapted into a much different persona this time around because he was raised better, but the essence still remains the same (especially as far as views towards protecting women). Nature 1, Nurture 1.

 

I really liked your analogy of the muscle reflex reaction for when he feels LTT is struggling to take power. It always seemed to me that it was an internal struggle anyways, because up to veins of gold Rand was always a reluctant savior, and sought to contain as much of his "Dragoness" as possible, while a different part of him felt he couldn't try to contain it at all if he wanted to survive.

 

It's like if you made a clone, then 20 years into the clone's life you imported the memories of the original guy but left the clone's own memories. They are still 2 different "people". Just in the WOT case the original guy is dead. Obviously in my example they could co-exist and clearly demonstrate two different people, but in WOT they couldn't co-exist because they share a soul. But we know from RJ this doesn't kill my conclusion because he said using the same soul does not mean the people are the same.

 

Your clone analogy here is really good for the most part, except for one flaw: the soul. Generally speaking, although people still debate on the existence of souls, most of the kneejerk reactions people experience when the topic of clones get brought up is because people think of clones as soulless monstrosities that would be worse than anything brought over from Dr. Moreau's island (actually, Gray Men probably aren't clones, but they would be a good example of one might be like from a metaphysical perspective). A clone, even with the same memories imported from the very start of it's own existence, would not be the same person in my book.

 

A better analogy might be a terrible movie I started to watch the other day called Xchange, with Stephen Baldwin btw (who woulda thought he'd end up in a movie that was bad?). The premise is in the future, a company offers a service in which people who don't have time for regular travel swap bodies with someone already at their destination. Now they don't imply they transfer souls, just the consciousness, but for our purposes we'll say they're the same thing. Now in this scenario, say they mess up and when they transfer consciousness, they accidentally hit ctrl-alt-del on his memories and his system reboots (in other words, amnesia). After living life with a brand new start for 10 years, they come back and finally upload his memories back into his new head. He'd still have all his new memories from when he got his fresh start, but now has memories from before it as well. Is that the same person? I would say yes. Before he got his memories back? ... Eh that starts to get a little iffy, I'd have to consider how long he spends with the new body opposed to how long he spent in the original, and how different his environment is now, and other tiny seemingly superficial differences. Even then though I'd likely say he's still the same person, even if he has a different personality, different morals, etc. You know what? I just realized I'm using a Stephen Baldwin movie to help relate my point. Let's just go with the amnesia scenario from A Long Kiss Goodnight instead (much better movie, go see it) and hopefully now my internet poster's liscense won't get revoked.

 

 

 

I'd finally like to bring up one more point which is very sad, so I'm hoping most of my novel texts don't get read by that many people anyways, at least not all the way to the end. People in general know that Alzheimers robs the elderly of their memories, but not everyone is aware that another side effect of Alzheimers is personality distortion. I'm lucky enough to never have had a loved one experience this, and I'm sure it would be devestating to see, especially for the spouse if he/she is still around. But the point is, just because their personality has now been altered by their sickness (Alzheimers isn't the only condition which has this effect), does that mean they're a different person? Luckily the compassionate side and the logical side of me agree: emphatically, no.

[Mr Ares]

LTT is dead. Dead, dead, dead, dead, dead. He cannot, and will not, come back. He is dead.

Perhaps they think he's only stunned? Just resting? Pining for the fjords, perhaps. However, I agree with you. He's dead. He's bleeding demised. He's expired and gone to meet his maker. He's passed on. This Dragon is no more, it has ceased to be. This is a late Dragon. He's a stiff. Bereft of life, he rests in peace, if he hadn't been nailed to his perch he'd be pushing up daisies. He's shuffled of his mortal coil and joined the choir invisible. This is an ex-Dragon.

 

Every incarnation of a soul is a new person. (I'm talking about in WoT - you can believe whatever you like about reality.) In this respect, Rand is no different to anyone else - he was born as a new person, not a previous incarnation. He grew up as Rand. LTT died. He never came back from the dead. What appeared in Rand's head is more a ghost than a man. It is memories, fragments of personality, not a whole man (and in that respect it is indeed true that they are not two men).

 

As for some of Despothera's other points: Rand is a Hero of the Horn (according to RJ), therefore in nature he is no different - each incarnation is a new person, and while Rand's circumstances might be unusual, he is still a new incarnation;

Rand's access to his past life memories is a result of a rare form of madness (per Semi in KoD);

Mat's situation has some superficial differences, but is fundamentally the same - he is not those people in his memories, he is Mat Cauthon with other men's memories;

no-one is born ta'veren (per RJ), and Rand only became so shortly before the start of the series (also per RJ);

as for whether BS altered the direction RJ was going, I would say if he did so he did so in ignorance. It certainly is conceivable that RJ's notes were ambiguous on the subject, and so BS used his own judgement.

 

Just because someone dies in this series doesn't mean they lose all their memories, experiences, outlooks, etc. If that was true then when the DO is transmigrating the souls of the killed Forsaken then they would be reborn as blank slates.

He's transmigrating more than just the soul.

Also the Heroes of the Horn remember each of their past lives in TAR, and nothing indicates that what part of them resides in TAR is anything but just the soul. So we have clear indication that in this universe, the soul does carry more than just the metaphysical sense of being that we think about in our world, instead it carries with it the essence of the person, and memories.

Nothing indicates that what resides in T'a'r is just the soul, either. This is not what is called clear evidence. It is what's called unclear evidence. Or no evidence.

 

Rand definitely acts differently after veins of gold, and it's fairly obvious that he has a much more arrogant nature about him.

I wouldn't say he's significantly more arrogant now than he was before. He's calmer, I'll give him that, but that's not really an indication of anything so much as him being at peace with himself.

I also don't believe the memories resulted from his madness, and if your only source is Semi after she's just been captured I would say that it would need a lot more support.

Why? Everything she says that we have evidence on one way or the other turns out to be true. She's not one who is overly inclined to lie, and a desire to make Rand suffer benefits neither side. After all, what she says can do that if true as well as if false, maybe even better. The truth can drive wedges as much as lies.

Plus, I still don't understand how madness would implant someone elses memories inside your head.

Well, others can probably explain it better than I can. Him being insane doesn't mean the memories are wrong, it just means he suffers from an abnormal mental state - which is decidedly true. He has, somehow, accessed the memories of his previous life, memories he shouldn't have access to. That he has indicates there is something wrong (and that this condition is known to Semi supports that). It's not a gift from the Light or the Wheel, it's a sign his mind is broken.

 

And anyways, all of my speculation exists for is to make it clear why Rand believes he is LTT, as it states all over his pov's after veins of gold.

I know this is somewhat pedantic, but in his one POV after VOG, I don't recall any evidence that really supports this.

 

Mazrim Taim has apparantly been channeling FAR longer than Rand has, and it's pretty evident that he's already insane, yet there's no reference to him breaking the space-time barrier, as you put it.

I don't recall any significant body of evidence supporting Taim being insane.

 

About Rand's own insight: Who is he referring to when he says "We"? As you say, he believes "they" are the same person, who is he referring to? Himself, and...?

If Rand believes they are the same person, then there can be no we. We is plural - thus it only makes sense if there is (believed to be) more than one person.

 

On to the main point, as I stated above it's clearly evident that in this series, when someone dies their identity doesn't necessarily die with them. Just because LTT died thousands of years ago doesn't mean a part of him can't resurface.

As you say - a part. LTT died and never came back. What is in Rand is mere fragments - hence not two people. Just Rand, and bits of LTT.

[hazelkrs1]

Mr. Ares you aren't addressing the fundamental impasse here though: what makes a person a person? I said a part of him resurfaced, I think it was his entire essence, enough for him to carry over into Rand's body and become Rand/LTT. You keep saying LTT died, but the argument I'm making is that he was reborn. Not that Rand is channeling his spirit, or that only a part of his memories was e-mailed to Rand's head, but that LTT was reborn, didn't realize it forever so thought of himself as Rand, then accepted that he's both Rand and LTT. His pov in ToM supports this.

[Mr Ares]

What makes a person a person? Difficult to answer, at least head on. What are the indications Rand and LTT are the same person? Well, Rand has LTT's memories, but it is established that sharing memories doesn't mean sharing personhood. They share a soul, but again that doesn't mean they share personhood. Rand has some of LTT's personality? Well, maybe a little bit. It could just be an altered Rand personality, as a result of new memories. There doesn't seem to be a lot of LTT in there. So I fail to see why we should say the "fundamental essence" of him was carried over. No, what we have is a new person, with a measure of the old added. So what are the differences between LTT and Rand? Memories. Body. Personality. Everything save soul, essentially. Why should they be considered different people? Well, aside from the aforementioned differences is the matter of a lack of continuity of personhood. The Chosen were able to pick up where they left off - essentially a continuation of their old lives in new bodies. LTT didn't pick up where he left off. He died. He never came back, not truly. Rand began. Rand was new, not connected to the old. This is not like a life-changing event, such as becoming a born-again Christian. There, you are still the same person. You change, but there is continuity. Rand has no continuity with LTT, he starts with a blank slate. No connection to the old. With the Chosen, they are akin to pressing pause at the end of one track, only to press play later for the next - the album is the same. Rand is more akin to a new album, albeit one by the same artist as the old. A new work, not a continuation of the old.