Are Rand Al'Thor and Lews Therin Telamon the same person?

[Suttree]

You keep saying LTT died, but the argument I'm making is that he was reborn.

 

So the point you are trying to make is that LTT has been reborn? The wheel has spun him out again? Ok I was at least open minded about most of what you have been trying to to say but that is a deal breaker for me.

 

Just because someone dies in this series doesn't mean they lose all their memories, experiences, outlooks, etc. If that was true then when the DO is transmigrating the souls of the killed Forsaken then they would be reborn as blank slates.

 

Yes it does...

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

Q: I have an exiting question, maybe, we heard of making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the Forsaken?

RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally, through the turning of the Wheel, no.

Q: If then the Dark One puts him in a new body?

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is a shift of an entire person....

 

and I hadn't noticed before but see the bolded section, yet another RJ quote backing up the point that each incarnation is a new person.

[hazelkrs1]

What makes a person a person? Difficult to answer, at least head on. What are the indications Rand and LTT are the same person? Well, Rand has LTT's memories, but it is established that sharing memories doesn't mean sharing personhood. They share a soul, but again that doesn't mean they share personhood. Rand has some of LTT's personality? Well, maybe a little bit. It could just be an altered Rand personality, as a result of new memories. There doesn't seem to be a lot of LTT in there. So I fail to see why we should say the "fundamental essence" of him was carried over. No, what we have is a new person, with a measure of the old added. So what are the differences between LTT and Rand? Memories. Body. Personality. Everything save soul, essentially. Why should they be considered different people? Well, aside from the aforementioned differences is the matter of a lack of continuity of personhood. The Chosen were able to pick up where they left off - essentially a continuation of their old lives in new bodies. LTT didn't pick up where he left off. He died. He never came back, not truly. Rand began. Rand was new, not connected to the old. This is not like a life-changing event, such as becoming a born-again Christian. There, you are still the same person. You change, but there is continuity. Rand has no continuity with LTT, he starts with a blank slate. No connection to the old. With the Chosen, they are akin to pressing pause at the end of one track, only to press play later for the next - the album is the same. Rand is more akin to a new album, albeit one by the same artist as the old. A new work, not a continuation of the old.

 

Stressed parts in bold by me. The now infamous quote used by RJ indicated that having the same soul meant two different personalities, and I feel that's the part you're forgetting. This is completely easy to grasp, a personality is, partially at the very least, a product of the environment in which it is cultivated, so even though 2 seperate incarnations of any random person shares the same soul, they develop completely unique personalities due to their respective upbringing, experiences, opportunities, etc. But once again, I don't feel having different personalities correlates to having two different people, one of the examples I used was alzheimer patients. Another could be someone suffering from amnesia, they are often described as having a different personality after whatever incident might have caused their memory loss. In both cases, the same person demonstrates having seperate personalities. Another slightly more dubious example would be people suffering from multiple personality disorder. In each case though, you'd still have to say they remain the same person.

 

As for the differences you mentioned, they do share the same memories in a manner of speaking. They don't share the same body, but I feel that is a superficial difference, especially given the example of the Forsaken that are respawned. Personality? After VoG it seems they do have the same personality (I say seems because we saw so little of what LTT might have been like firsthand, only the brief insanity filled moments in the prologue of EotW, and other accounts of him are by Forsaken, which do seem to coincide with Rand's personality even before Vog). But even if you still look at those as meaningful differences, them sharing the same soul (essentially) is a very important fact to consider in light of the fact that in this series the soul has a signifigant role in shaping lives. The Heroes of the Horn may lead occassionally uninteresting lives, and yet most of the time their heroic souls lead their respective incarnations down paths that end up living up to the legendary status that their souls have achieved. And that's just when their souls alone pass to the next body, imagine if they received memories from past lives as well.

 

At the end of the 3rd Xmen movie, after the credits

 

it is implied that Charles Xavier has transferred his consciousness to a body that was born souless, mindless, whatever you want to call it; this is of course after the Phoeniz disintegrated his wheelchair bound butt. In this scenario, if he were to awaken in his new body with his consciousness intact, would he be considered Professor X? I think the answer would obviously be yes. However, if he were to awaken in that new body, and some part of his consciousness was disrupted in the transfer, and he didn't have all his memories at first, would he still be considered Professor X? I would still say yes.

 

Thus, I feel the continuity argument carries no weight. If it was a given that Rand and LTT were the same person, it shouldn't matter if he didn't realize this at first, or even if he technically never realized it.

 

As for the last analogy you made, I would say it's much more like your dvd player bookmarks a scene you're watching in a movie when you eject the disk, and then 3000 years later someone else puts the dvd back in the player and the movie starts back where it was, only for the first few seconds there's some bizarre skipping and pixelating due to the immense amount of time which has passed. So there.

 

 

 

You keep saying LTT died, but the argument I'm making is that he was reborn.

 

So the point you are trying to make is that LTT has been reborn? The wheel has spun him out again? Ok I was at least open minded about most of what you have been trying to to say but that is a deal breaker for me.

 

Just because someone dies in this series doesn't mean they lose all their memories, experiences, outlooks, etc. If that was true then when the DO is transmigrating the souls of the killed Forsaken then they would be reborn as blank slates.

 

Yes it does...

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

Q: I have an exiting question, maybe, we heard of making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the Forsaken?

RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally, through the turning of the Wheel, no.

Q: If then the Dark One puts him in a new body?

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is a shift of an entire person....

 

and I hadn't noticed before but see the bolded section, yet another RJ quote backing up the point that each incarnation is a new person.

 

If someone loses all their memories when they die, how does Birgitte remember her past lives?

 

As for that last RJ quote, first of all the question seems to be worded very obscure, so I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding exactly what they're asking, but it seems like he's saying if a Forsaken soul is reborn naturally, it won't have the same mind as the previous incarnation. This is pretty obvious, once again if you grow up and experience life through a completely different set of circumstances, you're going to come out different. But if you're reborn retaining a remnant of your past life, and this remnant influences you in the same way Rand/LTT's remnant of LTT influences him, or the way the Forsaken respawned by the DO with a remnant of their past life influence them, then I'd say it's very easy to consider you to be the same person.

[Mr Ares]

What makes a person a person? Difficult to answer, at least head on. What are the indications Rand and LTT are the same person? Well, Rand has LTT's memories, but it is established that sharing memories doesn't mean sharing personhood. They share a soul, but again that doesn't mean they share personhood. Rand has some of LTT's personality? Well, maybe a little bit. It could just be an altered Rand personality, as a result of new memories. There doesn't seem to be a lot of LTT in there. So I fail to see why we should say the "fundamental essence" of him was carried over. No, what we have is a new person, with a measure of the old added. So what are the differences between LTT and Rand? Memories. Body. Personality. Everything save soul, essentially. Why should they be considered different people? Well, aside from the aforementioned differences is the matter of a lack of continuity of personhood. The Chosen were able to pick up where they left off - essentially a continuation of their old lives in new bodies. LTT didn't pick up where he left off. He died. He never came back, not truly. Rand began. Rand was new, not connected to the old. This is not like a life-changing event, such as becoming a born-again Christian. There, you are still the same person. You change, but there is continuity. Rand has no continuity with LTT, he starts with a blank slate. No connection to the old. With the Chosen, they are akin to pressing pause at the end of one track, only to press play later for the next - the album is the same. Rand is more akin to a new album, albeit one by the same artist as the old. A new work, not a continuation of the old.

 

Stressed parts in bold by me. The now infamous quote used by RJ indicated that having the same soul meant two different personalities, and I feel that's the part you're forgetting. This is completely easy to grasp, a personality is, partially at the very least, a product of the environment in which it is cultivated, so even though 2 seperate incarnations of any random person shares the same soul, they develop completely unique personalities due to their respective upbringing, experiences, opportunities, etc. But once again, I don't feel having different personalities correlates to having two different people, one of the examples I used was alzheimer patients. Another could be someone suffering from amnesia, they are often described as having a different personality after whatever incident might have caused their memory loss. In both cases, the same person demonstrates having seperate personalities. Another slightly more dubious example would be people suffering from multiple personality disorder. In each case though, you'd still have to say they remain the same person.

 

As for the differences you mentioned, they do share the same memories in a manner of speaking. They don't share the same body, but I feel that is a superficial difference, especially given the example of the Forsaken that are respawned. Personality? After VoG it seems they do have the same personality (I say seems because we saw so little of what LTT might have been like firsthand, only the brief insanity filled moments in the prologue of EotW, and other accounts of him are by Forsaken, which do seem to coincide with Rand's personality even before Vog). But even if you still look at those as meaningful differences, them sharing the same soul (essentially) is a very important fact to consider in light of the fact that in this series the soul has a signifigant role in shaping lives. The Heroes of the Horn may lead occassionally uninteresting lives, and yet most of the time their heroic souls lead their respective incarnations down paths that end up living up to the legendary status that their souls have achieved. And that's just when their souls alone pass to the next body, imagine if they received memories from past lives as well.

 

At the end of the 3rd Xmen movie, after the credits it is implied that Charles Xavier has transferred his consciousness to a body that was born souless, mindless, whatever you want to call it; this is of course after the Phoeniz disintegrated his wheelchair bound butt. In this scenario, if he were to awaken in his new body with his consciousness intact, would he be considered Professor X? I think the answer would obviously be yes. However, if he were to awaken in that new body, and some part of his consciousness was disrupted in the transfer, and he didn't have all his memories at first, would he still be considered Professor X? I would still say yes

Thus, I feel the continuity argument carries no weight. If it was a given that Rand and LTT were the same person, it shouldn't matter if he didn't realize this at first, or even if he technically never realized it.

 

As for the last analogy you made, I would say it's much more like your dvd player bookmarks a scene you're watching in a movie when you eject the disk, and then 3000 years later someone else puts the dvd back in the player and the movie starts back where it was, only for the first few seconds there's some bizarre skipping and pixelating due to the immense amount of time which has passed. So there.

I'd say it's exactly like that analogy, only completely different. Rand does not begin as LTT. Not as a distorted, pixelated LTT, not as any sort of LTT. He starts from scratch. As a baby, a new born. Blank slate. For most of his life, he has been just Rand. A perfectly clear picture, and clearly not the scene you were watching before. Interference from LTT comes later.

 

For your X-Men argument, if his conciousness transeferred intact but with some initial disruption of memories, you would have continuity of personhood. With Rand, you don't. He didn't have a confused early life where he wondered who he was, an absence where LTT's memories should have been. He was born whole and entire - and wholly Rand. Nothing missing, and nothing carried over from LTT.

 

They do share the same memories now, but they didn't when Rand was born. He was just Rand, and has been for most of his life. Nothing of LTT. That came later. Personality? I see no real evidence of their personalities being the same. Differences were remarked upon prior to VoG, and he hasn't changed all that much. This is a Rand who no longer shuts himself away from his emotions - much akin to the Rand we saw earlier in the series, although his new experiences and memories have wrought some small changes. Essentially, still Rand. Still not LTT. As for souls, they are a guideline. It is possible to create very different people within the same guideline. Therefore the soul carrying over doesn't really tell you much. It's not really a hugely important consideration in whether or not two people are the same. And as that was all that carried over to Rand, before he acquired the memories, it is pretty clear that he is not LTT in any substantive sense.

 

While amnesiacs, Alzheimers' patients and people with multiple personalities might have different personalities without being different people, there are some pretty big differences between those cases and this. Those cases do not require the person with the condition to die, physically, and be reborn as a baby. Sure, if you mess around with someones brain you can change their personality. But we are not talking about a brain that has been messed around with (but is still the same brain) we are talking about a whole new brain. The stripping away of everything that made you who you are, and the replacement by someone who is not you - not physically or mentally. And never has been.

 

You keep saying LTT died, but the argument I'm making is that he was reborn.

So the point you are trying to make is that LTT has been reborn? The wheel has spun him out again? Ok I was at least open minded about most of what you have been trying to to say but that is a deal breaker for me.

 

Just because someone dies in this series doesn't mean they lose all their memories, experiences, outlooks, etc. If that was true then when the DO is transmigrating the souls of the killed Forsaken then they would be reborn as blank slates.

 

Yes it does...

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

Q: I have an exiting question, maybe, we heard of making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the Forsaken?

RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally, through the turning of the Wheel, no.

Q: If then the Dark One puts him in a new body?

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is a shift of an entire person....

 

and I hadn't noticed before but see the bolded section, yet another RJ quote backing up the point that each incarnation is a new person.

If someone loses all their memories when they die, how does Birgitte remember her past lives?

 

As for that last RJ quote, first of all the question seems to be worded very obscure, so I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding exactly what they're asking, but it seems like he's saying if a Forsaken soul is reborn naturally, it won't have the same mind as the previous incarnation. This is pretty obvious, once again if you grow up and experience life through a completely different set of circumstances, you're going to come out different. But if you're reborn retaining a remnant of your past life, and this remnant influences you in the same way Rand/LTT's remnant of LTT influences him, or the way the Forsaken respawned by the DO with a remnant of their past life influence them, then I'd say it's very easy to consider you to be the same person.

RJ said the transmigrated Chosen were the shifting of an entire person. The Chosen are significantly different to Rand, he cannot be considered the shifting of a whole person. They are not merely a remnant of their past lives, they are their past lives entire - Rand and Birgitte are mere remnants, and in Rand's case those remnants are late arrivals. The Chosen are the same people - by inference, everyone else is thus not the same person as a previous incarnation. Rand is not the same person as LTT. He is Rand, and Rand becomes corrupted by LTT.

[Suttree]

You keep saying LTT died, but the argument I'm making is that he was reborn.

 

So the point you are trying to make is that LTT has been reborn? The wheel has spun him out again? Ok I was at least open minded about most of what you have been trying to to say but that is a deal breaker for me.

 

Just because someone dies in this series doesn't mean they lose all their memories, experiences, outlooks, etc. If that was true then when the DO is transmigrating the souls of the killed Forsaken then they would be reborn as blank slates.

 

Yes it does...

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

Q: I have an exiting question, maybe, we heard of making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the Forsaken?

RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally, through the turning of the Wheel, no.

Q: If then the Dark One puts him in a new body?

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is a shift of an entire person....

 

and I hadn't noticed before but see the bolded section, yet another RJ quote backing up the point that each incarnation is a new person.

 

If someone loses all their memories when they die, how does Birgitte remember her past lives?

 

As for that last RJ quote, first of all the question seems to be worded very obscure, so I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding exactly what they're asking, but it seems like he's saying if a Forsaken soul is reborn naturally, it won't have the same mind as the previous incarnation. This is pretty obvious, once again if you grow up and experience life through a completely different set of circumstances, you're going to come out different. But if you're reborn retaining a remnant of your past life, and this remnant influences you in the same way Rand/LTT's remnant of LTT influences him, or the way the Forsaken respawned by the DO with a remnant of their past life influence them, then I'd say it's very easy to consider you to be the same person.

 

1. Birgitte remembers because she resides in Tar as HotH. She did not die and become reborn in the normal sense and remember, she was ripped out. If she had she would have none of those memories. The very fact that she is losing the memories shows they are not her own and as she mentions she "has no right to them". As the pattern weaves her in to this new life the memories fade.

 

2. Forsaken do not have just a "remnant" remaining, they per RJ are a "shift of an entire person" when entering a new body. It shows a faulty understanding of the process on your part and the quote proves there is zero similarity to what happened with Rand.

[hazelkrs1]

I'd say it's exactly like that analogy, only completely different. Rand does not begin as LTT. Not as a distorted, pixelated LTT, not as any sort of LTT. He starts from scratch. As a baby, a new born. Blank slate. For most of his life, he has been just Rand. A perfectly clear picture, and clearly not the scene you were watching before. Interference from LTT comes later.

 

 

Ok then instead of pixelation you have a scenario where you got a faulty copy of a movie from the video store and when you go to replay it, you see a few scenes of homeade film until it starts cutting back into the original movie. Not a good analogy, but let's move on. Also, your arguments have to get stronger than just stating the opposite of my thesis, there's really no chance for this discussion to gain momentum if I say something, and you just say "no, that's not true". You can say Rand was born as a blank slate till you're blue in the face but to keep it interesting, try to find more subtle ways to express your point. It's obvious I don't believe Rand started with a completely blank slate, so stating the opposite over and over gets us nowhere.

 

For your X-Men argument, if his conciousness transeferred intact but with some initial disruption of memories, you would have continuity of personhood. With Rand, you don't. He didn't have a confused early life where he wondered who he was, an absence where LTT's memories should have been. He was born whole and entire - and wholly Rand. Nothing missing, and nothing carried over from LTT.

 

 

It wouldn't be continuity of personhood if he didn't remember who he was. Plus, anyone who found themselves in a grown man's body with no recollection of who they were would obviously have a confused life, but why would anyone who was transplanted into a baby's body with a baby's intellect have any problem with assimilating into it's new life? It wouldn't feel there would be any reason to think anything's strange, even though it doesn't know who it is or where it came from, it's only a few minutes old, so it gets plenty of time to get a bearing on things and build its identity over time. So if Prof X inhabited the body of a soulless baby, and his vast intellect was limited by the baby's altered perception of reality, then would that qualify as disruption of continuity?

 

They do share the same memories now, but they didn't when Rand was born. He was just Rand, and has been for most of his life. Nothing of LTT. That came later. Personality? I see no real evidence of their personalities being the same. Differences were remarked upon prior to VoG, and he hasn't changed all that much. This is a Rand who no longer shuts himself away from his emotions - much akin to the Rand we saw earlier in the series, although his new experiences and memories have wrought some small changes. Essentially, still Rand. Still not LTT. As for souls, they are a guideline. It is possible to create very different people within the same guideline. Therefore the soul carrying over doesn't really tell you much. It's not really a hugely important consideration in whether or not two people are the same. And as that was all that carried over to Rand, before he acquired the memories, it is pretty clear that he is not LTT in any substantive sense.

 

 

I haven't seen any proof that Rand didn't have the memories from birth. Im not saying there's not any, I just haven't seen any. I don't know for a fact he had them at birth, but then this is all speculative on my part so that I can help make it more clear why Rand considers him and LTT to be the same person now. As for the personality issue, I'll guess we'll just have to agree to disagree until I quit being lazy and pick up ToM and compare descriptions of Rand to earlier books in the series. I feel it's a pretty signifigant change in personality.

 

On to souls, it's true that you can create two very different people with the same guideline, but it's also possible to create many things that arent alltogether that different. Most of Birgitte's lives seem pretty heroic, she's almost always an excellent marksmen, usually has the same taste in men, probably even share many different perspectives about life. So I feel it's safe to safe although it can be considered just a guideline, in this series it seems it's a very definitive guideline.

 

While amnesiacs, Alzheimers' patients and people with multiple personalities might have different personalities without being different people, there are some pretty big differences between those cases and this. Those cases do not require the person with the condition to die, physically, and be reborn as a baby. Sure, if you mess around with someones brain you can change their personality. But we are not talking about a brain that has been messed around with (but is still the same brain) we are talking about a whole new brain. The stripping away of everything that made you who you are, and the replacement by someone who is not you - not physically or mentally. And never has been.

 

 

That's exactly what I'm arguing though, that everything isn't stripped from LTT, that instead his essence is transferred into a new body that grew up as Rand, so considered himself Rand, but was also LTT. Physiologically speaking, when someone develops alzheimers or some other personality disrupting condition, their brain does change. You can notice signifigant differences in shape, size, neuron firing capacity, the list goes on. It seems a little dubious to call that the same brain. Either way, I acknowledge that there are differences obviously, but if the the main signifigant difference we're talking about here is dying, then I think that the mere fact that in the WoT universe reincarnation is a given, death doesn't carry the same signifigance. We don't have a direct analogy in real life because we can't be sure reincarnation exists. So, we must break the subject matter down and attempt to reason out some of the metaphysics going on behind the scenes using fairly limited information.

 

RJ said the transmigrated Chosen were the shifting of an entire person. The Chosen are significantly different to Rand, he cannot be considered the shifting of a whole person. They are not merely a remnant of their past lives, they are their past lives entire - Rand and Birgitte are mere remnants, and in Rand's case those remnants are late arrivals. The Chosen are the same people - by inference, everyone else is thus not the same person as a previous incarnation. Rand is not the same person as LTT. He is Rand, and Rand becomes corrupted by LTT.

 

I don't agree that the respawned Chosen are "their past lives entire" as you put it. I definitely agree that they (Lanfear/Cyndane, Aginor/Osan'gar, Balthamel/Aran'gar) are the same people, and it's easier to come to this conclusion than in Rand's case, but I still don't think they retained everything of who they were. When we first see Aran'gar's pov as he/she is being awakened in the spawning chamber or whatever it is, he/she has only a foggy recollection of events from his past life, in fact it takes him/her a bit to determine that he/she had been a man before. Not only that, but the Forsaken always refer to the respawned ones by their new personas, never really mentioning their connection to the old personas. It's understood that Cyndane is Lanfear, however all of the Forsaken react completely different to her after she is respawned. Part of this is because her channeling ability has declined somewhat, but you sense that another part is because she doesn't really have the same agenda anymore. You could then say this had something to do with her being mindtrapped, and this is a very valid point, but I still feel we have enough indicators from the descriptions and povs of the respawned forsaken to say that they are slightly different, besides just having a new body. Also your statement "The Chosen are the same people - by inference, everyone else is thus not the same person as a previous incarnation," is a logical miscue. The forsaken being the same people really has little to do with reincarnations of others, but even if there is a connection you can't infer from the one to automatically determine the outcome of the other.

 

 

1. Birgitte remembers because she resides in Tar as HotH. She did not die and become reborn in the normal sense and remember, she was ripped out. If she had she would have none of those memories. The very fact that she is losing the memories shows they are not her own and as she mentions she "has no right to them". As the pattern weaves her in to this new life the memories fade.

 

 

I'm not talking about once she's ripped out of TaR. I'm talking about how any of the HotH, while they reside in TaR, retain knowledge of their past lives. If your memories, perspectives, yadda yadda all depart from you upon your death, then how do they remember anything once they move back into shady acres reTaRment home?

 

2. Forsaken do not have just a "remnant" remaining, they per RJ are a "shift of an entire person" when entering a new body. It shows a faulty understanding of the process on your part and the quote proves there is zero similarity to what happened with Rand.

 

In the quote itself, he does say "for all intents and purposes". I take this to mean that when examining this matter from a philosophical standpoint (which is what I thought we we're doing), you can just say it's safe to consider them the same person. I agree that what the DO is doing is very different from what happened with Rand, but you can't say there's zero similarity between them. Let's not quibble about semantics either, when I say remnant I don't mean some small part when referring to the respawned forsaken. They have a leg up on pretty much any other character which is reborn in one way or another. But I don't think of them as being entirely like who they were in their past lives either.

 

Aginor was a scientist in the age of legends, this indicates he had a cold, calculating mind that while most assuredly evil, wouldn't seem to be impulsive. As Oran'gar/Dashiva, he is described many times as being kookoo for cocoa puffs, and acts and says things that are very impulsive.

 

Balthamel was a scholar, but wasn't very rich if I remember right, and I know it says somewhere he was a gambler. Seems a lot more impulsive than Aginor was, but as Halima he's pretty devious, very calculating, and doesn't take unnecessary risks.

 

Cyndane's behavior is pretty easily explained with the cour'sovera (spelling?) but the epilogue at the very end of ToM tells me we're going to see even more drastic changes for her character, possibly.

[Kahsm]

Don't be mean to Despothera, seems like such a nice guy compared to us hot heads.

 

However, I think Mr. Ares' line really does sum up my feelings on this quite nicely,

 

"[A]side from the aforementioned differences is the matter of a lack of continuity of personhood. The Chosen were able to pick up where they left off - essentially a continuation of their old lives in new bodies. LTT didn't pick up where he left off. He died. He never came back, not truly. Rand began. Rand was new, not connected to the old."

[Mr Ares]

I'd say it's exactly like that analogy, only completely different. Rand does not begin as LTT. Not as a distorted, pixelated LTT, not as any sort of LTT. He starts from scratch. As a baby, a new born. Blank slate. For most of his life, he has been just Rand. A perfectly clear picture, and clearly not the scene you were watching before. Interference from LTT comes later.

 

Ok then instead of pixelation you have a scenario where you got a faulty copy of a movie from the video store and when you go to replay it, you see a few scenes of homeade film until it starts cutting back into the original movie. Not a good analogy, but let's move on.

I would just like to stick with my perfectly good analogy.

You can say Rand was born as a blank slate till you're blue in the face but to keep it interesting, try to find more subtle ways to express your point. It's obvious I don't believe Rand started with a completely blank slate, so stating the opposite over and over gets us nowhere.

Well, he was bornw ith a blank slate. What more is there to say? Whether his memories of LTT were not there or whether they were buried so deep down they might as well have not been there is really a moot point - they had no bearing on his character. So what did? What part of LTT was present in an influencing capacity when he was born? The soul, same as anyone else, and as each incarnation of the soul is a new person, it is up to you to show a relevant difference in Rand's case.

 

For your X-Men argument, if his conciousness transeferred intact but with some initial disruption of memories, you would have continuity of personhood. With Rand, you don't. He didn't have a confused early life where he wondered who he was, an absence where LTT's memories should have been. He was born whole and entire - and wholly Rand. Nothing missing, and nothing carried over from LTT.

 

It wouldn't be continuity of personhood if he didn't remember who he was.

There would be disruption of memories, but by your own admission conciousness was intact - thus continuity.

Plus, anyone who found themselves in a grown man's body with no recollection of who they were would obviously have a confused life, but why would anyone who was transplanted into a baby's body with a baby's intellect have any problem with assimilating into it's new life? It wouldn't feel there would be any reason to think anything's strange, even though it doesn't know who it is or where it came from, it's only a few minutes old, so it gets plenty of time to get a bearing on things and build its identity over time. So if Prof X inhabited the body of a soulless baby, and his vast intellect was limited by the baby's altered perception of reality, then would that qualify as disruption of continuity?

In that case, you would have a baby, a new person, with none of Professor X's conciousness, memories, character or anything else present in an influencing capacity - to all intents and pruposes it would thus be a new person.

 

They do share the same memories now, but they didn't when Rand was born. He was just Rand, and has been for most of his life. Nothing of LTT. That came later. Personality? I see no real evidence of their personalities being the same. Differences were remarked upon prior to VoG, and he hasn't changed all that much. This is a Rand who no longer shuts himself away from his emotions - much akin to the Rand we saw earlier in the series, although his new experiences and memories have wrought some small changes. Essentially, still Rand. Still not LTT. As for souls, they are a guideline. It is possible to create very different people within the same guideline. Therefore the soul carrying over doesn't really tell you much. It's not really a hugely important consideration in whether or not two people are the same. And as that was all that carried over to Rand, before he acquired the memories, it is pretty clear that he is not LTT in any substantive sense.

 

I haven't seen any proof that Rand didn't have the memories from birth.

Except we went several books without seeing them and when they appeared he didn't think of them as familiar. Thus it's difficult to argue he had them when there is no evidence suggesting he did and ample evidence suggesting he didn't.

 

On to souls, it's true that you can create two very different people with the same guideline, but it's also possible to create many things that arent alltogether that different. Most of Birgitte's lives seem pretty heroic, she's almost always an excellent marksmen, usually has the same taste in men, probably even share many different perspectives about life. So I feel it's safe to safe although it can be considered just a guideline, in this series it seems it's a very definitive guideline.

Yet even two similar things within the same guideline can still be two different things. Even very similar Birgitte's are different people. Just similar people.

 

While amnesiacs, Alzheimers' patients and people with multiple personalities might have different personalities without being different people, there are some pretty big differences between those cases and this. Those cases do not require the person with the condition to die, physically, and be reborn as a baby. Sure, if you mess around with someones brain you can change their personality. But we are not talking about a brain that has been messed around with (but is still the same brain) we are talking about a whole new brain. The stripping away of everything that made you who you are, and the replacement by someone who is not you - not physically or mentally. And never has been.

 

That's exactly what I'm arguing though, that everything isn't stripped from LTT, that instead his essence is transferred into a new body that grew up as Rand, so considered himself Rand, but was also LTT. Physiologically speaking, when someone develops alzheimers or some other personality disrupting condition, their brain does change. You can notice signifigant differences in shape, size, neuron firing capacity, the list goes on. It seems a little dubious to call that the same brain. Either way, I acknowledge that there are differences obviously, but if the the main signifigant difference we're talking about here is dying, then I think that the mere fact that in the WoT universe reincarnation is a given, death doesn't carry the same signifigance. We don't have a direct analogy in real life because we can't be sure reincarnation exists. So, we must break the subject matter down and attempt to reason out some of the metaphysics going on behind the scenes using fairly limited information.

In essence, everything other than LTT's essence was stripped from LTT - that essence being essentially the essence from which he was made, that same set of guidelines used to create Rand later. It is not an essence unique to LTT, so much as a common building block for both LTT and Rand. As to brains being the same, if you had a teapot and I dropped it on the floor, would it still be the same teapot after smashing? Despite the differences in size, shape and tea brewing capacity? Bear in mind that if you say they were not the same teapot, I will use that as an excuse to not buy you a new teapot. And lastly, the significance of death. From RJ's blog, as found on Theoryland's database: "Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease." There we have our metaphysics. A new incarnation is a new person. LTT as a person died, and while his soul continued Rand is a new person, given the outline RJ has given us.

 

This post will continue after a brief musical interlude:

 

RJ said the transmigrated Chosen were the shifting of an entire person. The Chosen are significantly different to Rand, he cannot be considered the shifting of a whole person. They are not merely a remnant of their past lives, they are their past lives entire - Rand and Birgitte are mere remnants, and in Rand's case those remnants are late arrivals. The Chosen are the same people - by inference, everyone else is thus not the same person as a previous incarnation. Rand is not the same person as LTT. He is Rand, and Rand becomes corrupted by LTT.

 

I don't agree that the respawned Chosen are "their past lives entire" as you put it. I definitely agree that they (Lanfear/Cyndane, Aginor/Osan'gar, Balthamel/Aran'gar) are the same people, and it's easier to come to this conclusion than in Rand's case, but I still don't think they retained everything of who they were. When we first see Aran'gar's pov as he/she is being awakened in the spawning chamber or whatever it is, he/she has only a foggy recollection of events from his past life, in fact it takes him/her a bit to determine that he/she had been a man before. Not only that, but the Forsaken always refer to the respawned ones by their new personas, never really mentioning their connection to the old personas. It's understood that Cyndane is Lanfear, however all of the Forsaken react completely different to her after she is respawned. Part of this is because her channeling ability has declined somewhat, but you sense that another part is because she doesn't really have the same agenda anymore. You could then say this had something to do with her being mindtrapped, and this is a very valid point, but I still feel we have enough indicators from the descriptions and povs of the respawned forsaken to say that they are slightly different, besides just having a new body.

Osan'gar notes that he has lost memories - during both the long sleep and the short. That is, his time in the Bore and his subsequent death. if the loss of a few memories - although not all by any means - counts as a disruption of personhood then the Aginor that awoke is not the Aginor who was sealed in the Bore. They were given their new names by Shai'tan, it makes sense that the other Chosen would use them in preference to the old, discarded names. Cyndane is something of a special case - due to the loss in strength, the others aren't entirely sure this is Lanfear. The mindtrap and anyother punishments she might have suffered explain differences in behaviour. As for Osan'gar and Aran'gar, we don't really have enough to go on with regards to changes there, but I don't recall any being noted - still less in Moridin. In fact, in his case it is noted that he is no saner than he had been as Ishamael. A direct continuation of their person in all four cases. Not so in Rand's - he cannot reasonably be considered anything but a fresh start.

Also your statement "The Chosen are the same people - by inference, everyone else is thus not the same person as a previous incarnation," is a logical miscue. The forsaken being the same people really has little to do with reincarnations of others, but even if there is a connection you can't infer from the one to automatically determine the outcome of the other.

The Chosen being the same people as they were before death would be an example of the exception that proves the rule. That inference alone might be somewhat shaky, I'll grant you, but backed up as it is by so much else it seems pretty sure.

 

Don't be mean to Despothera, seems like such a nice guy compared to us hot heads.

Oh, I certainly have no problem with Despothera as a person - certainly comes across as a nicer guy than me (although that is damning with faint praise).

[Alternate34]

I'd say it's exactly like that analogy, only completely different. Rand does not begin as LTT. Not as a distorted, pixelated LTT, not as any sort of LTT. He starts from scratch. As a baby, a new born. Blank slate. For most of his life, he has been just Rand. A perfectly clear picture, and clearly not the scene you were watching before. Interference from LTT comes later.

 

 

Ok then instead of pixelation you have a scenario where you got a faulty copy of a movie from the video store and when you go to replay it, you see a few scenes of homeade film until it starts cutting back into the original movie. Not a good analogy, but let's move on. Also, your arguments have to get stronger than just stating the opposite of my thesis, there's really no chance for this discussion to gain momentum if I say something, and you just say "no, that's not true". You can say Rand was born as a blank slate till you're blue in the face but to keep it interesting, try to find more subtle ways to express your point. It's obvious I don't believe Rand started with a completely blank slate, so stating the opposite over and over gets us nowhere.

 

This is the real crux of why this can't go any further. This assumption that Rand was influenced by LTT memories while he grew up has no basis in the evidence from the book. Assuming Rand had all of LTT's memories from the get go does not have any support. Rand only starts accumulating those memories as he uses the power and descends deeper into madness.

 

Other situations are not analogous. RJ made a point to distinguish between being spun out by the Wheel versus being transmigrated by the Dark One. The first is not transference of personhood, the second is not. Birgitte is not analogous. She was pulled from TAR, though I would argue she is a different person than her reincarnations.

 

As for a discussion of what defines a person in general, I don't believe there is a single characteristic that provides the essence of a person. Being the same body is generally required, though I could see dispensing with that if the entirely of memories and personality were transferred flawlessly from one body to the other. I would say that a different body plus lack of memories influencing him for the beginning years of his life plus the beginning years of his life being extremely influential on his person now (and at times in conflict with LTT memories) make it clear that Rand is a different person than LTT.

 

All evidence that Rand is not a different person requires assumptions for which there is no evidence, specifically that he repressed LTT memories until he was older and that his personality after VoG is the same as LTT. There is probably some evidence that his personality now is different than LTT's during the War of Power, but I don't have the books in front of me.

 

This does not apply in Rand's case. Even if Rand repressed LTT memories before the age of 18, his experience was still effectively without LTT during that age. Those are the most formative years of age. That makes him different than LTT. Even his new personality, if it can be called new, relies as much on his Rand experiences and it does on whatever he draws upon from LTT. That would make Rand a different person because of his experiences prior to having LTT's memories. Rand's experience and genetics without LTT's memories distinctly guiding his consciousness makes him a different person.

[Dream]

This is the real crux of why this can't go any further. This assumption that Rand was influenced by LTT memories while he grew up has no basis in the evidence from the book. Assuming Rand had all of LTT's memories from the get go does not have any support. Rand only starts accumulating those memories as he uses the power and descends deeper into madness.

I'm not speaking for Despothera, but I do not think Rand was influenced by LTT memories while he grew up. Nevertheless, it is still possible that the memories were still there. Rand's situation has been compared to amnesia. When you have amnesia, you don't remember but the memories are still there.

 

 

Other situations are not analogous. RJ made a point to distinguish between being spun out by the Wheel versus being transmigrated by the Dark One. The first is not transference of personhood, the second is not. Birgitte is not analogous. She was pulled from TAR, though I would argue she is a different person than her reincarnations.

I agree. None of the cases are analogous to Rand, including other souls spun out by the Wheel. Rand is special. He's the only one prophesized to be the Rebirth of a specific individual.

 

 

As for a discussion of what defines a person in general, I don't believe there is a single characteristic that provides the essence of a person. Being the same body is generally required, though I could see dispensing with that if the entirely of memories and personality were transferred flawlessly from one body to the other. I would say that a different body plus lack of memories influencing him for the beginning years of his life plus the beginning years of his life being extremely influential on his person now (and at times in conflict with LTT memories) make it clear that Rand is a different person than LTT.

Since there are cases of the same person in a different body as you pointed out, then it's a fact that having the same body is NOT required. The rest of the paragraph contains your own subjective opinion. My own subjective opinion is that Rand is LTT, grew up exactly as LTT (with no prior memories) would have and then regained his memories.

 

 

All evidence that Rand is not a different person requires assumptions for which there is no evidence, specifically that he repressed LTT memories until he was older and that his personality after VoG is the same as LTT. There is probably some evidence that his personality now is different than LTT's during the War of Power, but I don't have the books in front of me.

The first sentence is hyperbole. There is in fact plenty of evidence that Rand and LTT are the same person--primarily from Rand himself. I wouldn't say he repressed them (at least not in the early stages of his life) since that implies active participation on his part. He didn't have access to those memories, like amnesia.

 

 

This does not apply in Rand's case. Even if Rand repressed LTT memories before the age of 18, his experience was still effectively without LTT during that age. Those are the most formative years of age. That makes him different than LTT. Even his new personality, if it can be called new, relies as much on his Rand experiences and it does on whatever he draws upon from LTT. That would make Rand a different person because of his experiences prior to having LTT's memories. Rand's experience and genetics without LTT's memories distinctly guiding his consciousness makes him a different person.

Again, this is all your subjective opinion. My own subjective opinion is that he is the same person. My evidence is that Rand says so. And, let's cut to the chase, your evidence is that RJ says not.

[hazelkrs1]

Sorry I abandoned this thread for a bit, it was one of my favorite arguments too! Mr. Ares, I feel that we should discontinue the track we were on with the Prof X and the Forsaken, cause I don't foresee any headway being made there. Your feelings about both shows we gotta just agree to disagree in both cases. I did however, want to introduce some pertinent quotes I finally dug up:

 

 

 

Regarding the importance/utility of souls:

 

"Trayal was one of the last among us to go along the Ways," Alar said softly. "He came out as you see him. Will you touch him, Verin?"

Verin gave her a long look, then rose and strode to Trayal. He did not even move as she laid her hands on his wide chest, not even a flicker of an eye to acknowledge her touch. With a sharp hiss, she jerked back, staring up at him, then whirled to face the Elders. "He is ... empty. This body lives, but there is nothing inside it. Nothing." Every Elder wore a look of unbearable sadness.

"Nothing," one of the Elder to Alar's right said softly. Her eyes seemed to hold all the pain Trayal's no longer could. "No mind. No soul. Nothing of Trayal remains but his body." - The Great Hunt, chapter 36

 

Seems pretty definitive there: Soul in Randland = soul, essence, mind, probably persona.

 

Regarding the main issue:

 

Rand felt a calmness beyond that of the void. "I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I'm sure of it. Come. It is time to die." - The Great Hunt, chapter 47.

 

Once again, pretty definitive. Rand says he knows he hasn't ever served Ba'alzamon in any of his lives. Says it first person.

 

And his paths shall be many, and who shall know his name, for he shall be born among us many times, in many guises, as he has been and ever will be, time without end. - right after table of contents of The Dragon Reborn

 

This one aint that strong in supporting my theory, but the wording of "guises" is what catches my eye here. This implies to me that he may not know who he is, or may represent himself as someone else, even though he's still the same person.

 

Regarding Rand's ta'vereness compared to Hawking:

 

"Perhaps," Moiraine said. "Perhaps not. Noone knows anything about ta'veren as strong as Rand." For just a moment she sounded vexed at not knowing. "Artur Hawking was the most strongly ta'veren of whom any writings remain. And Hawking was in no way as strong as Rand." - The Dragon Reborn, chapter 8

 

Boom.

[Mr Ares]

Sorry I abandoned this thread for a bit, it was one of my favorite arguments too! Mr. Ares, I feel that we should discontinue the track we were on with the Prof X and the Forsaken, cause I don't foresee any headway being made there. Your feelings about both shows we gotta just agree to disagree in both cases. I did however, want to introduce some pertinent quotes I finally dug up:

 

 

Regarding the importance/utility of souls:

 

"Trayal was one of the last among us to go along the Ways," Alar said softly. "He came out as you see him. Will you touch him, Verin?"

Verin gave her a long look, then rose and strode to Trayal. He did not even move as she laid her hands on his wide chest, not even a flicker of an eye to acknowledge her touch. With a sharp hiss, she jerked back, staring up at him, then whirled to face the Elders. "He is ... empty. This body lives, but there is nothing inside it. Nothing." Every Elder wore a look of unbearable sadness.

"Nothing," one of the Elder to Alar's right said softly. Her eyes seemed to hold all the pain Trayal's no longer could. "No mind. No soul. Nothing of Trayal remains but his body." - The Great Hunt, chapter 36

 

Seems pretty definitive there: Soul in Randland = soul, essence, mind, probably persona.

Except it says mind separately from soul. So soul is something quite distinct from mind, and I think to lump all those things (soul, mind, essence, persona) under one banner is reaching a little.

 

Regarding the main issue:

 

Rand felt a calmness beyond that of the void. "I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I'm sure of it. Come. It is time to die." - The Great Hunt, chapter 47.

 

Once again, pretty definitive. Rand says he knows he hasn't ever served Ba'alzamon in any of his lives. Says it first person.

Of course, there Rand is speaking from a lack of knowledge - he's an uneducated guy from a backwoods village, not a philosopher with an undertanding of the relationship between souls and past lives. Also, I hardly think that he's in the right mindset to ensure complete semantic accuracy. "I know I never have. Well, I know none of the incarnations of my soul ever have." Doesn't hasve quite the same ring to it, does it?

 

And his paths shall be many, and who shall know his name, for he shall be born among us many times, in many guises, as he has been and ever will be, time without end. - right after table of contents of The Dragon Reborn

 

This one aint that strong in supporting my theory, but the wording of "guises" is what catches my eye here. This implies to me that he may not know who he is, or may represent himself as someone else, even though he's still the same person.

I'm glad you already think it's not that strong in support of your theory. Allow me to point out that it comes from a commentary of the Prophecies written by someone in a pre-Trolloc Wars Kingdom. Therefore it was probably written in the Old Tongue, and the difficulties of translating from the OT are often remarked upon in story.

[hazelkrs1]

Except it says mind separately from soul. So soul is something quite distinct from mind, and I think to lump all those things (soul, mind, essence, persona) under one banner is reaching a little.

 

 

I'm not the one lumping all them together, one of the Elders is doing it for me. We know that Machin Shin devours souls, not minds, or anything else, just souls. We also know that within Machin Shin seems to be the remnants of it's countless victims consciousnesses, there are thoughts and various perspectives contained in the totality of it's strange higher intelligence. The quote doesn't say the mind is unique apart from the soul either. The Elder is trying to describe what is missing from Trayal, trying to pinpoint his condition more accurately.

 

Of course, there Rand is speaking from a lack of knowledge - he's an uneducated guy from a backwoods village, not a philosopher with an undertanding of the relationship between souls and past lives. Also, I hardly think that he's in the right mindset to ensure complete semantic accuracy. "I know I never have. Well, I know none of the incarnations of my soul ever have." Doesn't hasve quite the same ring to it, does it?

 

 

I think it's safe to understand that Rand isn't exactly talking from the uneducated backwoods fella perspective. Whether it was his grip on Saidin, his madness, or a revert to a more primal nature in response to Ba'alzamon's presence, he doesn't seem to be himself all of a sudden. This isn't the only time either, he has a few disjointed perspectives throughout the first few books, even before any submerged memories are released. It seems it is during these moments that Rand has some kind of clarity which cares not for his delicate psyche but which states the truth.

 

I'm glad you already think it's not that strong in support of your theory. Allow me to point out that it comes from a commentary of the Prophecies written by someone in a pre-Trolloc Wars Kingdom. Therefore it was probably written in the Old Tongue, and the difficulties of translating from the OT are often remarked upon in story.

 

At the same time, if the original prophecy translated more closely to "his soul shall be born among us many times" I think someone would have noticed, especially with how many times they've been translated and how closely any dragon related prophecies have been perused.

[Mr Ares]

Except it says mind separately from soul. So soul is something quite distinct from mind, and I think to lump all those things (soul, mind, essence, persona) under one banner is reaching a little.

I'm not the one lumping all them together, one of the Elders is doing it for me. We know that Machin Shin devours souls, not minds, or anything else, just souls. We also know that within Machin Shin seems to be the remnants of it's countless victims consciousnesses, there are thoughts and various perspectives contained in the totality of it's strange higher intelligence. The quote doesn't say the mind is unique apart from the soul either. The Elder is trying to describe what is missing from Trayal, trying to pinpoint his condition more accurately.

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with your assessment. The Elder is saying Trayal lost both his mind and his soul. As for the limits of what Machin Shin does, we know that people lost to it don't always show up again, just that if they do they do so as empty shells. Therefore it is conceivable it can destroy a body as well as anything else, therefore we shouldn't limit its abilities purely to souls. Finally, I think you would appreciate a counter-quote, so here goes: "'You will adapt. The body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body.'" From LoC Prologue, SH talking to Aran'gar. Clear distinction drawn between body, mind and soul.

 

Of course, there Rand is speaking from a lack of knowledge - he's an uneducated guy from a backwoods village, not a philosopher with an undertanding of the relationship between souls and past lives. Also, I hardly think that he's in the right mindset to ensure complete semantic accuracy. "I know I never have. Well, I know none of the incarnations of my soul ever have." Doesn't hasve quite the same ring to it, does it?

 

I think it's safe to understand that Rand isn't exactly talking from the uneducated backwoods fella perspective. Whether it was his grip on Saidin, his madness, or a revert to a more primal nature in response to Ba'alzamon's presence, he doesn't seem to be himself all of a sudden. This isn't the only time either, he has a few disjointed perspectives throughout the first few books, even before any submerged memories are released. It seems it is during these moments that Rand has some kind of clarity which cares not for his delicate psyche but which states the truth.

I categorically disagree with everything you said there. I really see no evidence in that scene of anything more than just Rand. I see no reason to believe Rand has access to some universal truth in that moment, to know that he would never do it and never had. He is certain, yes, but that certainty did not require any divine inspiration.

 

I'm glad you already think it's not that strong in support of your theory. Allow me to point out that it comes from a commentary of the Prophecies written by someone in a pre-Trolloc Wars Kingdom. Therefore it was probably written in the Old Tongue, and the difficulties of translating from the OT are often remarked upon in story.

At the same time, if the original prophecy translated more closely to "his soul shall be born among us many times" I think someone would have noticed, especially with how many times they've been translated and how closely any dragon related prophecies have been perused.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here - we have a single extract from a single translation - we don't know how others have translated the same extract, or how accurate this extract (or this translation as a whole) is regarded as.