Mat & Perrin or Perrin & Mat?

[Guest Fire Lord]

I'ven't seen this anywhere (maybe I'ven't looked around enough) but I'll give it a shot anyway

Mat and Perrin are both ta'vern (sp), we know, and are both very important to Rand and the Last Battle etc ect.

What I was wondering is, are they of the same importance? I'll try to explain.

In the fourth book, the Shadow Rising, Perrin manages to escape Rand's pull (that ta'vern (sp) pull) but it's not easy, he remarks it.

In the Fires of Heaven, Mat keeps trying to get away from Rand, but always end up being drawn back to him. That's one point.

The other point is the colors the three see in their heads when they think of one another. I think it is accepted that it has to with them being ta'vern.

When Rand was cleansing saidin, Mat thought of him and the colors came. Now I can't remember well but I think Mat didn't get a clear picture of who it was but he knew it was Rand and Nynaeve (sp?)

Perrin thought of Rand that day and he saw him and Nynaeve as clearly as if they had been there in front of him.

What I'm getting at is, could it be that Perrin in some way is slightly more important than Mat? I think that it should have been the other way around (I don't really know why, but Mat seems closer to Rand than Perrin is (this has been argued about somewhere, I remember.)

Any ideas?

And while we're on that subject, is there anywhere Mat thinks about Perrin and sees the colors, or Perrin sees them when he thinks about Mat? I think someone said that here. I seem to remember it happen when they think about Rand, not each other.

[Osangar1282083176]

What I'm getting at is, could it be that Perrin in some way is slightly more important than Mat?

 

I don't think that perrin is more important than matt. i think that perrin accepts his fate and matt resists it. nobody can do anything efficiently when they resist doing it at all

[Oregon]

I think Osan'gar has hit the nail on the head. Perrin accepts it - he's not a passive participant in his life, but he knows the hand he's dealt and he's going to play it - and Mat is always looking to trade in his cards for some that better suit him.

 

It's just like with Egwene and Elayne - both are destined to be the most powerful Aes Sedai in a thousand years (except for little Ms. Wisdom), but neither is ever described as even fractionally stronger than the other (except for the fact that Egwene is unusually strong in Earth, and able to manufacture Heartstone - quite the Talent, that...then again, Elayen has her Talents as well).

[okstate91]

quote:

(except for the fact that Egwene is unusually strong in Earth, and able to manufacture Heartstone - quite the Talent, that...then again, Elayen has her Talents as well). - Oregon

 

its probably like that with mat and perrin. mats got his dice thing that he's cool with and perrin is rockin his wolves.

[Naudran Grimnir]

I think the pull that they both feel, has to do with the need that Rand has for them.

 

When Perrin left, Rand wanted Perrin to keep Two Rivers safe. At that moment he needed Mat (due to his battle knowledge etc.) and as such Mat found it very difficult to leave.

 

On the same note, when Rand needed Perrin again, the ta'veren pull on Perrin was bigger and he left the Two Rivers to go to Rand.

 

Also remember that neither Mat nor Perrin is with Rand at the moment, and neither really talk/think that much about the pull anymore... they'll probably start expierancing it more again soon.

[Mystica]

I don't know how much of this is going to make sence, but here's my 'off the top' ideas on the matter.

 

Being Taveren, I think, sets a person slightly apart from the carpet that is the Pattern (it's a visual I use for this concept). So, imagine the Pattern being a carpet of millions of threads all interwoven with each other, but all on the same level, making the carpet seem flat. Taveren, I believe, are lifted away from that flat surface (can be above or below).

We know that Taveren are part of the pattern, so they would still be linked to the other threads in the carpet and thus also to each other. However, being set 'apart' from the millions of others, they might experience a deeper connection with other Taveren. Like when you have a field of people between 3 hills and on each hill stands a person, those 3 persons still belong to the same people race below them and interact with them, but they also have a much better chance of seeing the other 2 on the other hills better than the rest of them in the field. They would be better positioned to 'see' the others' movements better. (again, not sure if the comparison makes sence).

If using the carpet and threads visual, you could say that the Taveren are intertwined with all the millions, but not always directly (turns, knots, etc) as they might have a direct connecting thread to each other above or below the surface of the carpet.

 

Rand, being the strongest Taveren as the DR, might even be slightly set apart from the other Taveren even, putting him again on a different level. Rand is able to change the pattern of not only the carpet but also that of the other Taveren. I doubt that Mat and Perin could do that to each other, as they would most likely be on the same level.

 

Is one more important than the other? I don't think so. I think they each have their own specific 'talent' which both are equally important and equally needed. Only maybe not always at the same time or at the same place. That might be why they feel the pull seperately, depending on which of their talents is more needed at the time.

 

At the last battle, however, both talents will be equally needed and at that time I think both Mat and Perrin will feel the pull equally strong at the same time.

 

(sorry if this made absolutely no sence lol)

[SinisterDeath]

Why did Perrin see Rand more Clearly then Mat?

Could be multiple reasons.

It could be as simple as perrin excepting, and mat resisting.. which isn't necissarilly true considering they are both resisting fate..

Or it could be Perrin was closer to Rand, then Mat was. Thusly the Ta'varen color spiral thing could have been far more effective allowing him to see clearer.

OR it could be Perrins wolf abilities. Better Eye sight, Better Hearing. And it could easilly have been Perrins ability to enter the dream world. That alone could have compinsated for the color shiftng spiralness..

Hell it could be all 3 of those possibilities combined..

[schneb]

I always thought that the swirling colors is something that becomes stronger over time. At first Perrin didn't get the picture either, but as time went by it started becoming clearer to him. I thought that the same thing was happening to Mat as well, but since I'm at work and have no access to the books I can't be sure. Isn't Rand getting the pictures too?

[RobertAlexWillis]

It seems to be totally based on conscious concentration/association. They see the swirls when they think of each other, and can dismiss them by concentrating on something else, or focus them by concentrating on focusing them.

[Anajon]

do Perrin and Mat see each other?

 

I just checked in the WOT encyclopaedia page - and YES Perrin sees Mat (and Tuon) in Ch 4 KOD. I could find any passage where it happened the other way round.

 

Any one else?

[aznprince001]

Its because Perrin has the funny ability to walk in the Teleronoid, (butchered the spelling) so he could probably do it consciencly too with the people that are closest to him.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It seems to be directed by association, that is, whichever of the other two, or both, that one of them is thinking about can be seen via the swirlies, as long as that one concentrates on seeing the other one or two. If one of them consciously tries to push the images away, they can, at least so far.

[n00l3y]

Besides, what purpose would Perrin being more important than Mat bring about? Like the Egwene/Elayne comparison earlier on. Perhaps Egwene or Elayne is an ounce stronger in the power than the other (and this is something very hard to measure). It hardly matters. They have different roles and they never "compete" per say, in the power.

 

So, Perrin may have more "ta'verenism" than Mat. It doesn't matter. They have different objectives and ta'veren are ta'veren. And another thing. When Moirane first met them, I don't think she could tell at first that Rand was the Dragon Reborn. Since we know that Rand is definitely a stronger ta'veren than the other two, it shows that the difference is not marginal.

 

Last of all, if RJ were to suddenly bring this up in AMOL, it would only create another sub-plot that would have to be resolved in that same book.

 

All in all, I agree with Sin's reasoning.

[Barnabas]

from memory mat wasnt actually thinking about rand at the time, a channeler mentioned that they felt something from shadar logoth and mat got the vague picture and knew it was rand, whereas with perrin im pretty sure he actually thought about rand, dont have books on hand atm, but from memory that was it, assuming we're talking about the same time and i remember rightly:D

whether thats right or not though, i personally think both of them are of equal importance to rand

[Lews Therin Telamon]

personally i think there is only one time where perrin will be important from now on in the series, and that is at Tarmon Gaidon (which will be the second time that rand would need him to survive) whereas mat is virtually giving rand the seanchan by marrying tuon. yes, perrin has links with the seanchan now, but thats only because he was working with some of them. mat is marrying their Empress-to-be.

in my oppinion mat is more important and it should be said "Rand, Mat and Perrin." or even better "Rand and Mat. Oh yeah, and Perrin." perrin is crap in my oppinion, and i want padan fain to kill him

[Thor]

Perrin sees him clearer because he doesn't mind.

 

Mat sees him not as clear because when he sees him, he is always having sex with min, so obviously he doesn't want to see that.

 

Also, what has that got to do with importance anyways?

Have you also considered the distance effect? Perrin is (was?) closer to Rand than Mat.

[V1zharan]

I see Mat and Perrin of equal importance. Yes, Mat is giving Rand the Seanchan pretty much, but remember, Rand was already trying to make a truce with the Seanchan when Semirhage struck, while Perrin was making a militaristic alliance with the Seanchan to save his wife. All 3 of them are finding ways to ally themselves with the Seanchan, sso you can't base Mat being more important because he's giving Rand the Seanchan. What you mean Perrin is only important at the Last Battle, has the huge battle when Perrin saved Faile completely slipped your mind? He took a nice bite of out the Shaido, and somewhat scattered the rest.

Ok, I haven't seen Mat mentioned as being important at Tarmon Gaidon, and I'm not saying he isn't going to be, but remember when Perrin met with the Seanchan and the Seanchan said something about how he was just happy Perrin didn't call himself the Wolf King? I don't have my books at hand, but I'm pretty sure TG was mentioned there, and the "Wolf King" being there. Overall, Rand is the Dragon Reborn, Mat and Perrin are his childhood friends, they are both important, and no where is there any proof to say either is more important than the other.

[Darkloki]

I think the "Wolf King" is one of thier prophacies to TG. Though I cannot say for sure. Been a while since I had a chance to read through everything again, but i'm working on that. Perrin will have a decent tie to the Sancean through the military leaders he fought with. They have seen his knowledge, and devotion, not to mention the whole wolves as ally thing. And i'm sure that Faile will get along with and befriend some of the High-blood or whatever.But Mat has a stronger tie to them becuase of Tuon, his little love. So if any Sancean wishes not to partake in TG becuase Tuon wants to "protect her toy" they will follow Perrin becuase some officers, and troops knw his strength. Mat will be at the last battle becuase he is a great leader. Plus his "dragons" and the cranks for he cross bows. Allowing him to have a small band of crossbow men and deal considerable damage. When you add those with his memories, all the battle field knowledge he gained, BAM! Total leader of a strong force for TG. Don't forget he is also going to get Moriane, and who knows what kind of allies that might bring him. They are both very important, no real definitive answer as to who is more so, but the last battle will be hard fought, and easily lost with out both. Wow, typed more then I thoght I would, sorry for any sp's, been up 3 days staight becuase of work and school... need sleep.