Dark One = Creator?

[Superhal]

When I saw the BUT post stickied at the top of the page, I thought this would be the one. Everyone I talked to never thought of this before.

 

When Herid Fel described the nature of the Wheel of Time, he said that at this point, the DO's prison was closed, here it was broken into (as we see Miern/Lanfear do in Rand's visionquest,) here it is patched, here the patch weakens, and here it's closed again and the cycle begins anew.

 

What this immediately said to me:

 

1. The DO is the one who drives the Wheel of Time.

2. There is no "creator" who originally made it.

3. This cycle has been repeating for many thousands of years, if not ages. When the prison is closed, it's the Age of Legends. When it's patched improperly, it's the Age of Illusions.

 

Support:

1. The DO repeatedly protects Rand from the Forsaken: direct instruction through Shaidar Haran/Forsaken, access to the TP, "let the lord of chaos rule," etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the last book ends like Neo's meeting with the Architect in the Matrix, with Fain in the Agent Smith role.

2. When Rand uses Callandor to try to cure death, Moiraine says that only the Creator can Heal death. Apparently, so can the DO (Moirdin, Cyndane, Agin'nor, etc.)

3. Whenever Rand is ambushed by trollocs, catchpoles are repeatedly used.

4. While there is plenty of evidence of the DO's touch, where is any evidence of the Creator's? Everything "good" (e.g. the Eye of the World, Tear, sa'angreal, etc.) were made by humans.

5. Rand's schools, Aviendha's future vision and Mat's utilization of canon indicate the coming of the new Age of Legends.

 

To take this a step further: if Rand screws up and dies before he can seal the patch, I can imagine the DO sealing it himself to continue the cycle. Rand was correct (imho) to try to destroy the Pattern himself and allow people to live free of this artificial cycle.

 

Thoughts welcome, particularly if someone could point me to where Team Jordan has addressed this already.

[WhiskyJack]

When I saw the BUT post stickied at the top of the page, I thought this would be the one. Everyone I talked to never thought of this before.

 

When Herid Fel described the nature of the Wheel of Time, he said that at this point, the DO's prison was closed, here it was broken into (as we see Miern/Lanfear do in Rand's visionquest,) here it is patched, here the patch weakens, and here it's closed again and the cycle begins anew.

 

What this immediately said to me:

 

1. The DO is the one who drives the Wheel of Time.

 

No. TS drives the wheel. Wheel is continuously "turning" and weaving the pattern. boring a hole in DO's prison signified the end of one age and patching another. There are ages without DO.

 

2. There is no "creator" who originally made it.

 

It would be odd to imprison yourself and then try to break free all the time. For funzies?

 

3. This cycle has been repeating for many thousands of years, if not ages. When the prison is closed, it's the Age of Legends. When it's patched improperly, it's the Age of Illusions.

 

Not true. Next age after current age is not AoL. There are 7 ages for every complete turn of wheel, all distinct.

 

Support:

1. The DO repeatedly protects Rand from the Forsaken: direct instruction through Shaidar Haran/Forsaken, access to the TP, "let the lord of chaos rule," etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the last book ends like Neo's meeting with the Architect in the Matrix, with Fain in the Agent Smith role.

 

 

Merely to turn Dragon to dark side. As the Dark prophecy said in last book, next time it gets it's hand on Dragon, it will go for the kill.

 

 

2. When Rand uses Callandor to try to cure death, Moiraine says that only the Creator can Heal death. Apparently, so can the DO (Moirdin, Cyndane, Agin'nor, etc.)

 

 

What would Moiraine know. DO doesn't "heal" deaths. Besides DO and Creator have same power (opposite in nature though).

 

 

3. Whenever Rand is ambushed by trollocs, catchpoles are repeatedly used.

 

 

Did you only read the first book? Gazillion times shdaowspawns have tried to kill him. In first book, on Moridin's order they were trying to catch all 3 Emond fielders.

 

4. While there is plenty of evidence of the DO's touch, where is any evidence of the Creator's? Everything "good" (e.g. the Eye of the World, Tear, sa'angreal, etc.) were made by humans.

 

It has been explained through Creator's own mouth (first book) and Rand's theory that creator doesn't care! It built the countless worlds and left. Yet it didn't leave humanity alone. It gave the world Dragon and wheel a mechanism to use Dragon/other people (tav'eren). Creator is not under prison. It doesn't care. It's in the book.

 

5. Rand's schools, Aviendha's future vision and Mat's utilization of canon indicate the coming of the new Age of Legends.

 

No. AoL was heyday of OP. This new age will see the decline of OP and arrival of technology based on science.

 

To take this a step further: if Rand screws up and dies before he can seal the patch, I can imagine the DO sealing it himself to continue the cycle. Rand was correct (imho) to try to destroy the Pattern himself and allow people to live free of this artificial cycle.

 

Rand was correct when he decided to blow the world or later when he decided to save it?

[Superhal]

 

 

3. This cycle has been repeating for many thousands of years, if not ages. When the prison is closed, it's the Age of Legends. When it's patched improperly, it's the Age of Illusions.

 

Not true. Next age after current age is not AoL. There are 7 ages for every complete turn of wheel, all distinct.

 

Which book explains this? New Spring? That's the only one I haven't read.

 

 

It has been explained through Creator's own mouth (first book) and Rand's theory that creator doesn't care! It built the countless worlds and left. Yet it didn't leave humanity alone. It gave the world Dragon and wheel a mechanism to use Dragon/other people (tav'eren). Creator is not under prison. It doesn't care. It's in the book.

 

New Spring? I don't remember the Creator being "on screen" in any of the books. However, Rand's theory doesn't eliminate the idea that there is no Creator.

 

Rand was correct when he decided to blow the world or later when he decided to save it?

 

On one hand, I think Rand was correct that while many people would die, being free of the Pattern would be worth it. However, later when he became Zen Rand he decided to protect the people already living. I don't think destroying the Pattern would destroy the world. Also, if he destroyed the pattern and 99.9% of the people currently living died, how many fewer would die at Tarmon Gaidon?

[mb]

There were a couple of threads speculating the Dark One being (or becoming) the Creator.

One made during version 7 of this forum. The other being somewhat recent.

 

I do not believe either theory.

[WhiskyJack]

3. This cycle has been repeating for many thousands of years, if not ages. When the prison is closed, it's the Age of Legends. When it's patched improperly, it's the Age of Illusions.

 

Not true. Next age after current age is not AoL. There are 7 ages for every complete turn of wheel, all distinct.

 

Which book explains this? New Spring? That's the only one I haven't read.

 

 

It's a mix of books and RJ's interview. You can check his interviews here.

 

It has been explained through Creator's own mouth (first book) and Rand's theory that creator doesn't care! It built the countless worlds and left. Yet it didn't leave humanity alone. It gave the world Dragon and wheel a mechanism to use Dragon/other people (tav'eren). Creator is not under prison. It doesn't care. It's in the book.

 

New Spring? I don't remember the Creator being "on screen" in any of the books. However, Rand's theory doesn't eliminate the idea that there is no Creator.

 

 

In first book, Rand hears Creator's voice:

 

IT IS NOT HERE.

I WILL TAKE NO PART IN THIS...

IT IS NOT HERE.

 

Yeh, that's Creator talking. It moved Rand to location of battle and then to Ishmael's demesne. Ishmael later claims that Rand had help as is evident.

 

Rand was correct when he decided to blow the world or later when he decided to save it?

 

On one hand, I think Rand was correct that while many people would die, being free of the Pattern would be worth it. However, later when he became Zen Rand he decided to protect the people already living. I don't think destroying the Pattern would destroy the world.

 

Pattern is the world!!!!!! Every atom, even electron/proton is part of the pattern. Wheel is nothing more than matter/energy manipulator!

[Majsju]

The BUT was in TOM, and had nothing to do with neither the DO nor the Creator.

[Superhal]

 

In first book, Rand hears Creator's voice:

 

IT IS NOT HERE.

I WILL TAKE NO PART IN THIS...

IT IS NOT HERE.

 

Yeh, that's Creator talking. It moved Rand to location of battle and then to Ishmael's demesne. Ishmael later claims that Rand had help as is evident.

 

 

Is this also RJ/TJ verified? I re-read this section, and it seems to be a mish-mash of TAR ("need" transportation,) Travelling and the beginnings of this past-life-speaking insanity. Reading it again, if it actually was the Creator, a paradox is created when they say, "I will take no part." If it was the Creator, he couldn't help Rand. That he did help Rand (after saying "I will take no part") means it isn't the Creator. But then again, the rules in the first book don't seem to agree with the other books.

[Luckers]

 

In first book, Rand hears Creator's voice:

 

IT IS NOT HERE.

I WILL TAKE NO PART IN THIS...

IT IS NOT HERE.

 

Yeh, that's Creator talking. It moved Rand to location of battle and then to Ishmael's demesne. Ishmael later claims that Rand had help as is evident.

 

 

Is this also RJ/TJ verified? I re-read this section, and it seems to be a mish-mash of TAR ("need" transportation,) Travelling and the beginnings of this past-life-speaking insanity. Reading it again, if it actually was the Creator, a paradox is created when they say, "I will take no part." If it was the Creator, he couldn't help Rand. That he did help Rand (after saying "I will take no part") means it isn't the Creator. But then again, the rules in the first book don't seem to agree with the other books.

 

 

RJ and Team Jordan have very specifically avoided confirming that the Eye Voice was the Creator a great many times, and Harriet has instructed Brandon not to comment on anything related to this.

 

So whilst most fans believe it to be the Creator, it remains uncertain.

[OptimusPrime]

I dont believe the Dark One and Creator are the same. The only explanation I can think of to justify it would be for the dude to have accidentally trapped himself and I dont like that idea. A Ta'veren then becomes an anti-Creator device. Of course, RJ said the Wheel is like a fuzzy logic device, I suppose that could mean its artificial intelligence but then this all becomes just another Matrix setup. It just makes the whole thing pointless.

 

I like the idea that the voice in EotW was the Dark One though. We've always known the Dark One wants the Dragon as his champion, the reasons were not clear in the beginning, but now I think they are. The Dragon is the ultimate corrective mechanism, if it turned evil theres nothing else to stand in its way (apart from the Horn, but thats another theory) so its not like Shai'tan doesnt have a reason to want his highest minions to keep Rand alive. Removing the Dragon, from the Dark Ones PoV, would be wasting one of the best opportunities.

 

Aside from all that I dont think the Dark One intentionally granted Rand the True Power. Personally I think the connection between Rand and Moridin is literally one where their threads are merging, so soul/thread qualities become shared between the two. As in, in some cases they are classed as one being. With that in mind I think Rands True Power access IS Moridins True Power access, Rand gaining it by default of the link, and if the Dark One really wanted to block Rand he would have to block Moridin too. One case of permission, in two individuals. Its too important a tool for Moridin, thats why its left as it is in my oppinion, any side effects it all has on Rand are a bonus.

[Dream]

Thoughts welcome, particularly if someone could point me to where Team Jordan has addressed this already.

 

Compuserve Chat 26 June 1996:

Martin Reznick: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books . . . it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

[Songstress]

The BUT was in TOM, and had nothing to do with neither the DO nor the Creator.

 

Just reiterating this - we now know what the BUT is... personally, I think it would be helpful if Luckers edited the sticky post, as leaving the post as-is makes it seem like it's still a big mystery.

[Erunion]

The BUT was in TOM, and had nothing to do with neither the DO nor the Creator.

 

Just reiterating this - we now know what the BUT is... personally, I think it would be helpful if Luckers edited the sticky post, as leaving the post as-is makes it seem like it's still a big mystery.

 

Wait, we do know what it is? What is it, then? (Is it the dark not-Aiel?)

 

How did I miss this discovery!?

[Songstress]

The BUT was in TOM, and had nothing to do with neither the DO nor the Creator.

 

Just reiterating this - we now know what the BUT is... personally, I think it would be helpful if Luckers edited the sticky post, as leaving the post as-is makes it seem like it's still a big mystery.

 

Wait, we do know what it is? What is it, then? (Is it the dark not-Aiel?)

 

How did I miss this discovery!?

 

And sneaky Luckers has now edited the sticky post, for those who still weren't aware of what the Big Unnoticed Thing was. (You're the bomb, Luckers!)

[Superhal]

Thoughts welcome, particularly if someone could point me to where Team Jordan has addressed this already.

 

Compuserve Chat 26 June 1996:

Martin Reznick: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books . . . it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

Hmm, this interview doesn't discount the fact that they could still be the same entity, like the Ancient Aes Sedai symbol (yin and yang.) While they are opposites, they are two parts of one entity.

 

But yes, I would be very sad and disappointed if it was the Matrix ending.

[OptimusPrime]

The BUT was in TOM, and had nothing to do with neither the DO nor the Creator.

 

Just reiterating this - we now know what the BUT is... personally, I think it would be helpful if Luckers edited the sticky post, as leaving the post as-is makes it seem like it's still a big mystery.

 

Wait, we do know what it is? What is it, then? (Is it the dark not-Aiel?)

 

How did I miss this discovery!?

 

And sneaky Luckers has now edited the sticky post, for those who still weren't aware of what the Big Unnoticed Thing was. (You're the bomb, Luckers!)

 

Is anyone able to actually give some solid confirmation about it though? Did Brandon ever go on record saying it was that?

[Goldstar]

Just to what you said about Moiraine saying only the the Creator could heal death... Iirc, what she said was "Stop it Rand! You're not the Creator!", or something along those lines.

[mb]

RJ and Team Jordan have very specifically avoided confirming that the Eye Voice was the Creator a great many times, and Harriet has instructed Brandon not to comment on anything related to this.

 

So whilst most fans believe it to be the Creator, it remains uncertain.

Most likely candidates would be Creator and Dark One. Personality would eliminate Dark One; which would leave just Creator.

I would doubt any of the characters that were physically in the area.

[Superhal]

RJ and Team Jordan have very specifically avoided confirming that the Eye Voice was the Creator a great many times, and Harriet has instructed Brandon not to comment on anything related to this.

 

So whilst most fans believe it to be the Creator, it remains uncertain.

Most likely candidates would be Creator and Dark One. Personality would eliminate Dark One; which would leave just Creator.

I would doubt any of the characters that were physically in the area.

 

The third possibility is the beginnings of the LTT voice/past-life disease, a fourth could be insanity caused by the Taint.

 

From the point of view of only reading tEotW, it may be possible to draw that conclusion, but books 2-13 make it abundantly clear that the Creator is doing absolutely nothing.

[Luckers]

It could possibly even be a pure all out delusion... Rand was hardly in his right mind due to the power reaction to his latest touching of the source. His achievements could be wilder skill, and the voice a mental tick. ;)