Why are the Aes Sedai so poor in battle?

[Suttree]

During the Cleansing of Saidin, with the exception of Alivia, all of the Circles were guided by the Aes Sedai.

Flinn led the circle with Corele and Sarene against Demandred, and that was also the only circle that didn't suffer any fatalities.

 

No he didn't...

 

Edit: My bad, was thinking of Eben. As for Damer in Eben's thoughts we have:

 

WH

Damer had been giving control of the circle, though. Just because the man had a few years on him...

[sleepinghour]

Are you sure that Flinn led the circle? That should not be possible:

I think it was pretty clear from the text:

 

Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. That tottering old man was an Asha'man! And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring. He tried to launch his own attack and crush them, but the old man flung web after web at him without pause, and it was all he could do to fend them off.

[solarz]

Are you sure that Flinn led the circle? That should not be possible:

I think it was pretty clear from the text:

 

Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. That tottering old man was an Asha'man! And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring. He tried to launch his own attack and crush them, but the old man flung web after web at him without pause, and it was all he could do to fend them off.

 

Interesting, but that would contradict what the wotwiki says about linking.

 

It's quite possible that Demandred only *thought* it was Flinn attacking him. We know that:

 

1- Only men can detect other men channeling

2- When a weave is woven with both saidin and saidar, men can only see the saidin weaves, and women can only see the saidar weaves.

3- The one "leading" the circle is the only one who can direct the weaves.

 

So it's quite possible that Flinn thrust out his hand to point out the target -- Demandred -- but it was actually the Aes Sedai who wove and launched the attack webs. Demandred thought it was a net of saidin because he can only see the saidin weaves, and in the moment of chaos, did not notice the "invisible" saidar weaves.

[sleepinghour]

Interesting, but that would contradict what the wotwiki says about linking.

I think the WoT wiki (which is edited by fans and not an official source) is wrong on this. Eben's POV confirms that Flinn did lead the circle:

 

He [Eben] had been at Dumai's Wells, and fought the Seanchan, and he had learned that battles were more fun in a book than in the flesh. What did irk him was that he had not been given control of the circle. Of course, Jahar had not, but he figured Merise amused herself by making Jahar balance a cookie on his nose. Damer had been given control of that circle, though.

And the reason Jahar wasn't allowed to lead was probably because his circle had Callandor, which would require a woman to lead because of its manufacturing flaw.

 

In most cases, either a man or a woman can control the link—this is called leading, focusing, or guiding—but in the case of a circle of seventy-two, a circle of only one man and one woman, or in most circles of up to thirteen which contain more than one man, a man must lead. Excepting the examples given above, and other circles of thirteen or less, a woman must lead where the minimum number of men are present.

The BWB also supports men being able to lead a circle of thirteen or less (if I'm reading this right).

[rcfleming4]

Yeah I agree with sleepinghour.

 

It might be that way because technically the minimum number of men required for a circle of 13 or fewer is zero. Kind of nitpicky, but there it is lol

[solarz]

It might be that way because technically the minimum number of men required for a circle of 13 or fewer is zero. Kind of nitpicky, but there it is lol

 

You know, I think you're right!

[HeronMarkedSoul]

Not sure why every time someone who is in the "AS are weak" camp discusses any AS victory they have to mention either;

 

A: That the AS were using an angreal of some sort. I say so what? Even the Forsaken use them and do you expect them to be of equal power to a Forsaken? Nynaeve and Alivia are the exception to the rule, not the norm as far as power levels. Also, and I keep feeling the need to beat this to death, but we are talking about ancient beings with the knowledge of every weave/dirty trick ever known to man. It's like a guy who trains with the National Guard a weekend a month, but has never seen action going against a 20 year Navy SEAL vet...

 

B: It is also always mentioned that they linked. Again, should they not have? In a fight for your life (or the life of the world as you know it) aren't you going to use every thing available? They had no idea what was going to hit them and they were preparing. Like the old saying goes (usually about guns); It's better to have something and not need it than to need something and not have it.

[sleepinghour]

It might be that way because technically the minimum number of men required for a circle of 13 or fewer is zero. Kind of nitpicky, but there it is lol

That makes sense. I blame Callandor for the confusion; there's been a lot of discussion lately about Rand needing to surrender control of the circle to one of the two women he links with, and who it should be. It's easy to forget that this would normally not be a problem without Callandor's manufacturing flaw.

 

This also means Rand will still be able to control the circle as long as he isn't using Callandor, which I think is an important detail. Not only would it be difficult for one of the two women to figure out how to seal the Dark One, it would lessen the Dragon Reborn's importance. He'd become more of a passive participant while the woman in question would be the one to do the actual deed. I think they'll use Callandor to do something important, but the women won't be leading the whole time.

[Kahsm]

It might be that way because technically the minimum number of men required for a circle of 13 or fewer is zero. Kind of nitpicky, but there it is lol

That makes sense. I blame Callandor for the confusion; there's been a lot of discussion lately about Rand needing to surrender control of the circle to one of the two women he links with, and who it should be. It's easy to forget that this would normally not be a problem without Callandor's manufacturing flaw.

 

This also means Rand will still be able to control the circle as long as he isn't using Callandor, which I think is an important detail. Not only would it be difficult for one of the two women to figure out how to seal the Dark One, it would lessen the Dragon Reborn's importance. He'd become more of a passive participant while the woman in question would be the one to do the actual deed. I think they'll use Callandor to do something important, but the women won't be leading the whole time.

 

Kinda off topic. But why would Rand only use 2? I understand he needs 2 to use Callandor safely, but why not bring a fully 72 + Callandor, he has more than enough channelers.

 

Though I suppose if he were really worried about strength at the LB he wouldn't have destroyed the Choden Kal.

[XXX]

 

Yes, because all those examples of Aes Sedai kicking ass don't make the case for their power? It's always funny to see people cherry-picking what they want to see in order to support their views. No one ever said the White Tower is invincible. The fact that they've suffered their share of defeats does not prove that they're weak, only that they're human.

 

Isn't the fact that Shaido Wise Ones were trying to copy what the Aes Sedai did proof that the AS are just better at OP than Aiel Wise Ones? (Under the very reasonable assumption that Shaido Wise Ones were comparable to the rest of the Aiel Wise Ones in knowledge of OP.)

 

During the Cleansing of Saidin, with the exception of Alivia, all of the Circles were guided by the Aes Sedai. The Ashaman were there to contribute raw power to the Circle. This shows that with enough power to back them up, modern Aes Sedai can indeed hold their own against channelers of the AoL.

 

And guess what? Because only the Aes Sedai know how to link, they are the only group of channelers who can gather enough power to match the Forsaken. THAT is why no Forsaken have dared to openly move against the White Tower. Do you think the Forsaken would not resort to assassinations if they thought they had a chance to destroy the WT? They even have the Black Ajah working for them! The fact is, Merana *hid* in the White Tower because she knew how dangerous the White Tower could be if it focused its attention on someone.

 

Your idea that the WT is weak because there were only 50 damane in the Seanchan attack shows how little you understand military tactics. A surprise raid of a few dozen elite troops can wreak havoc on a poorly guarded army camp of thousands. The Seanchan weren't out to occupy the WT. A raid is all about a small number of troops inflicting as much damage as possible against a much larger force by using surprise. Nonetheless, the Seanchan suffered considerable casualties.

 

And don't try to dismiss the sa'angreal. The use and possession of objects of power is part and parcel with the knowledge and might of the White Tower. Dismissing AS might because they used a sa'angreal is like dismissing the might of the US Navy because they use supercarriers.

 

Finally, even the mightiest powers can make blunders. The Black Tower disaster was due to Elaida's arrogance.

 

 

I never said AS are weaker than the WO's(though that might quickly change now that the WO's are learning how to use combat weaves and not handicapped by the 3 oaths not the mention the know it all attitude of the AS)..but they are certainly weaker than the Ashaman and the Damane.

 

As pointed out by others 2 circles were led by AS and one by a AM. One of the AS circles used callander while the other managed to take a fatality.Not sure if that is anything to brag about. The AS who really shined there was Cadsuane but she is an exception rather than the rule.

 

Why would any forsaken want to destroy the actual WT...they have been absolutely useless so far. The only AS helping the Dragon are either the ones sworn to him or Cadsuane's group/Nynaeve who are not taking their directions from the WT. In fact for the large part of the series they have been a major pain in the ass for the Dragon.

 

As for your sa'angreal comparison to the Navy carriers..that would make sense if the AS actually made the sa'angreal or angreal they use to make up for their lack of skills. The truth is they only have them because by pure luck they are the successor organization to the AoL Aes Sedai. They do not know how to make them or even use all of the artifacts they have stumbled into. It makes them look even more useless that even after having these artifacts they are not the strongest channeler group.

[Superhal]

 

They are weak when someone they fight also has access to the OP.

 

Except when Moiraine was involved. :D

[XXX]

 

They are weak when someone they fight also has access to the OP.

 

Except when Moiraine was involved. :D

 

 

She was one kick ass Aes Sedai..unfortunately the rest were exceptional disappointments.

[Superhal]

 

They are weak when someone they fight also has access to the OP.

 

Except when Moiraine was involved. :D

 

 

She was one kick ass Aes Sedai..unfortunately the rest were exceptional disappointments.

 

Recently, but before the formation of the BT, they were pretty much unstoppable. Iirc, maybe Dumai's Wells was their first defeat, and they were on the enemy side. Again, I say observer bias.

[XXX]

 

They are weak when someone they fight also has access to the OP.

 

Except when Moiraine was involved. :D

 

 

She was one kick ass Aes Sedai..unfortunately the rest were exceptional disappointments.

 

Recently, but before the formation of the BT, they were pretty much unstoppable. Iirc, maybe Dumai's Wells was their first defeat, and they were on the enemy side. Again, I say observer bias.

 

Being unstoppable when there is no competition is not very great thing...

The best AS are the ones who stay away from the malignant influence of the WT for the most part..Moraine,Cads,Nys etc

[sleepinghour]

Kinda off topic. But why would Rand only use 2? I understand he needs 2 to use Callandor safely, but why not bring a fully 72 + Callandor, he has more than enough channelers.

 

Though I suppose if he were really worried about strength at the LB he wouldn't have destroyed the Choden Kal.

Good question... I guess Callandor is strong enough to make other channelers unnecessary; what they'd contribute would only be a drop in the ocean. And LTT claimed that "brute force would not contain him." So I think strength won't be all that important when it comes to actually sealing the Dark One, but it would certainly be useful to have other channelers around to fight off any Dreadlords/Shadowspawn armies waiting at Shayol Ghul.

 

It's possible he will be bringing other channelers to Shayol Ghul, but from his conversation with Nynaeve it seems like he really is only planning on linking with two women.

 

"I will need your counsel again. At the very least, I would like you by my side as I go to Shayol Ghul. I cannot defeat him with saidin alone, and if we are going to use Callandor, I will need two women I trust in the circle with me. I have not decided upon the other. Aviendha or Elayne, perhaps. But you for certain."

It's also possible that Rand is relying too much on what the Jendai Prophecy says (how often does anyone interpret the prophecies correctly?) and that's why he thinks he only needs two people in the circle.

 

"There's a phrase," Min said, "in the Jendai Prophecy. I wish we knew more of them. Anyway, it says 'and the Blade will bind him by twain.'"

"Two women," Rand said. "I need to be in a circle with two women to control it."

[solarz]

I never said AS are weaker than the WO's(though that might quickly change now that the WO's are learning how to use combat weaves and not handicapped by the 3 oaths not the mention the know it all attitude of the AS)..but they are certainly weaker than the Ashaman and the Damane.

 

As pointed out by others 2 circles were led by AS and one by a AM. One of the AS circles used callander while the other managed to take a fatality.Not sure if that is anything to brag about. The AS who really shined there was Cadsuane but she is an exception rather than the rule.

 

Why would any forsaken want to destroy the actual WT...they have been absolutely useless so far. The only AS helping the Dragon are either the ones sworn to him or Cadsuane's group/Nynaeve who are not taking their directions from the WT. In fact for the large part of the series they have been a major pain in the ass for the Dragon.

 

As for your sa'angreal comparison to the Navy carriers..that would make sense if the AS actually made the sa'angreal or angreal they use to make up for their lack of skills. The truth is they only have them because by pure luck they are the successor organization to the AoL Aes Sedai. They do not know how to make them or even use all of the artifacts they have stumbled into. It makes them look even more useless that even after having these artifacts they are not the strongest channeler group.

 

 

Dude, how many Forsaken have the Ashaman and Damane taken out? Taking casualties while fighting the most powerful baddies in the world isn't a mark of shame. Quite the contrary! The only reason there weren't MORE casualties, was the fact that the Forsaken were disorganized and fighting on their own instead of in coordination.

 

And why *wouldn't* the Forsaken want to destroy the White Tower? For all your claims that the AS are weak, who do you think is going to be the most important channeler faction in the Last Battle? It's not going to the the Damane, that's for sure!

 

Do you think Merana would rather be hiding than rule the White Tower with the Black Ajah, if she could do so?

 

You seem to ignore the fact that the White Tower had been HELPING Rand become the Dragon Reborn until Siuan was deposed: an act that was clearly instigated by the Black Ajah. If the Shadow is focusing so much attention on infiltrating, corrupting, and splitting the White Tower, why do you think they are not interested in destroying or capturing the White Tower for themselves, if they could do so?

 

Look at what happened to other factions when the Shadow turned its attention on them: Illian, Tear, Andor, and Arad Doman, all controlled by Forsaken. The Seanchan homeland, destroyed and thrown into anarchy. The Black Tower, corrupted from within, and turning into a tool of the Shadow. Illian, Tear, Andor, and Arad Doman were liberated by the Dragon Reborn. The White Tower, also suffering huge devastation at the hands of the Shadow, managed to pull itself together *by themselves*!

 

Finally, while the White Tower did not create the sa'angreal and angreal, they *are* the only people, aside from Rand and the Shadow, who even know these things exist, nevermind use them! The White Tower's accumulated lore and their search for objects of power over 3000 years is what gave them that store. That is part and parcel with their power base!

 

No, the White Tower is not the strongest channeler group. The strongest channeler group is the Seanchan, simply because they are the biggest channeler group, with the might of an entire empire behind them, and the fact that they have a ter'angreal that allows them to enslave other channelers! Had the White Tower been as powerful as the Seanchan, they would have no need of the Three Oaths and would have ruled all of Randland already. However, the fact that they're not as powerful as the Seanchan does not make them weak by any stretch of the imagination. That would be like saying the British are weak and useless because the Americans are more powerful!

[Kahsm]

"I will need your counsel again. At the very least, I would like you by my side as I go to Shayol Ghul. I cannot defeat him with saidin alone, and if we are going to use Callandor, I will need two women I trust in the circle with me. I have not decided upon the other. Aviendha or Elayne, perhaps. But you for certain."

 

And there's another thing. He doesn't even consider Egwene? Sure Avi and Elayne are part of his harem, but that seems irrelevant when we're talking about saving existence. Egwene is 10x the channeler both Avi and Elayne are and far more cool headed than Elayne. Good lord if he brings Elayne with him I'll flip out. At least Avi would handle herself accordingly.

[Manscher]

The shadow have had no interest in destroying The White Tower, as they've been using it as a tool to "let the lord of chaos rule". To alienate anybody capable of supporting Rand. The Black Ajah schemes have done far more damage then simply destroying The White Tower in it self could've done. It betrayed Rand, kidnapped him and tortured him, making him even more distrustful and paranoid, which eventually led to a scenario where the DO almost won by having Rand burning away the wheel. Why destroy a useful tool? The culture and nature of the Aes Sedai made it so simple and easy for the shadow to manipulate and use it.

 

I do not think Rand considers Egwene a friend anymore, nor a person whom he can fully trust, which is why he didn't mention her regarding Callandor. When he later talks with Min about him and LTT being the same, he doesn't mention Egwene either.

[XXX]

 

 

 

Dude, how many Forsaken have the Ashaman and Damane taken out? Taking casualties while fighting the most powerful baddies in the world isn't a mark of shame. Quite the contrary! The only reason there weren't MORE casualties, was the fact that the Forsaken were disorganized and fighting on their own instead of in coordination.

 

And why *wouldn't* the Forsaken want to destroy the White Tower? For all your claims that the AS are weak, who do you think is going to be the most important channeler faction in the Last Battle? It's not going to the the Damane, that's for sure!

 

Do you think Merana would rather be hiding than rule the White Tower with the Black Ajah, if she could do so?

 

You seem to ignore the fact that the White Tower had been HELPING Rand become the Dragon Reborn until Siuan was deposed: an act that was clearly instigated by the Black Ajah. If the Shadow is focusing so much attention on infiltrating, corrupting, and splitting the White Tower, why do you think they are not interested in destroying or capturing the White Tower for themselves, if they could do so?

 

Look at what happened to other factions when the Shadow turned its attention on them: Illian, Tear, Andor, and Arad Doman, all controlled by Forsaken. The Seanchan homeland, destroyed and thrown into anarchy. The Black Tower, corrupted from within, and turning into a tool of the Shadow. Illian, Tear, Andor, and Arad Doman were liberated by the Dragon Reborn. The White Tower, also suffering huge devastation at the hands of the Shadow, managed to pull itself together *by themselves*!

 

Finally, while the White Tower did not create the sa'angreal and angreal, they *are* the only people, aside from Rand and the Shadow, who even know these things exist, nevermind use them! The White Tower's accumulated lore and their search for objects of power over 3000 years is what gave them that store. That is part and parcel with their power base!

 

No, the White Tower is not the strongest channeler group. The strongest channeler group is the Seanchan, simply because they are the biggest channeler group, with the might of an entire empire behind them, and the fact that they have a ter'angreal that allows them to enslave other channelers! Had the White Tower been as powerful as the Seanchan, they would have no need of the Three Oaths and would have ruled all of Randland already. However, the fact that they're not as powerful as the Seanchan does not make them weak by any stretch of the imagination. That would be like saying the British are weak and useless because the Americans are more powerful!

 

Huh..Siuan and Moraine helped Rand inspite of the WT and when the WT found out they stilled Siuan. It just is another example of the epic uselessness of the WT.

 

I doubt the WT will be the most powerful channeler group..that would be the Seachan if they join or the Ash'aman both groups much more useful in fighting compared to the AS.

 

The most no of Forsaken have been killed by Rand..the first Asha'man!!

 

Anybody who can channel can use sa'angreal and angreal..how can you say the WT is anything special because they were in the fortunate position to get these items which they cannot make from the AoL group.

[XXX]

"I will need your counsel again. At the very least, I would like you by my side as I go to Shayol Ghul. I cannot defeat him with saidin alone, and if we are going to use Callandor, I will need two women I trust in the circle with me. I have not decided upon the other. Aviendha or Elayne, perhaps. But you for certain."

 

And there's another thing. He doesn't even consider Egwene? Sure Avi and Elayne are part of his harem, but that seems irrelevant when we're talking about saving existence. Egwene is 10x the channeler both Avi and Elayne are and far more cool headed than Elayne. Good lord if he brings Elayne with him I'll flip out. At least Avi would handle herself accordingly.

 

 

He does not trust Egwene..nor would I in his place. Her allegiance is to somehow keep the WT in prominence.

 

He should use Alivia along with Ny.

[solarz]

Huh..Siuan and Moraine helped Rand inspite of the WT and when the WT found out they stilled Siuan. It just is another example of the epic uselessness of the WT.

 

I doubt the WT will be the most powerful channeler group..that would be the Seachan if they join or the Ash'aman both groups much more useful in fighting compared to the AS.

 

The most no of Forsaken have been killed by Rand..the first Asha'man!!

 

Anybody who can channel can use sa'angreal and angreal..how can you say the WT is anything special because they were in the fortunate position to get these items which they cannot make from the AoL group.

 

Siuan was the Amyrlin Seat. How was that "inspite" of the WT? And no, it wasn't the "White Tower" that stilled Siuan, it was a portion of the White Tower manipulated by the Black Ajah. That's why they had the split, remember?

 

No, the White Tower was not in agreement regarding Rand, and Siuan had to search for the Dragon in secret. However, remember that Siuan was just about to proclaim her role in the "rebirth" of the Dragon, when Elaida initiated her coup. Had Elaida not done so, the White Tower under Siuan would have been a guiding force for Rand, much as Moiraine had been!

 

Much of what you ascribe as "useless" to the White Tower is actually the result of the Shadow's corruption. It's ironic that you think the WT is "useless" when it is one of the few groups that has continued to fight against the Shadow despite being under "assault". Once again, I would remind you that the Seanchan Imperial Court got wiped out, the Great Nations were subjugated by Forsaken, and the Black Tower is slowly being turned to the Shadow. What you describe as "useless" is in reality the struggle of the White Tower against the Shadow's influence. In this, it has done better than other groups.

 

he shadow have had no interest in destroying The White Tower, as they've been using it as a tool to "let the lord of chaos rule". To alienate anybody capable of supporting Rand. The Black Ajah schemes have done far more damage then simply destroying The White Tower in it self could've done. It betrayed Rand, kidnapped him and tortured him, making him even more distrustful and paranoid, which eventually led to a scenario where the DO almost won by having Rand burning away the wheel. Why destroy a useful tool? The culture and nature of the Aes Sedai made it so simple and easy for the shadow to manipulate and use it.

 

Sorry, but that makes no sense. We have seen how easily the Forsaken has subjugated nations. Why simply "alienate" them from Rand, when they can easily turn that entire nation to the Shadow?

 

Had the Forsaken been able to subjugate the White Tower early on, they could easily have declared Rand to be a "False Dragon" and turned the entire Westlands against him.

 

Or were you thinking that if the Black Ajah subjugated the White Tower, everyone in the world would magically know about it?

[Manscher]

Because up until recently, it's not be in the shadows interest to destroy him or hinder his increasing power, but rather to make him paranoid and in the end destroy the world.

 

And in that task, the Aes Sedai has served as an excellent catalyst.

[solarz]

Because up until recently, it's not be in the shadows interest to destroy him or hinder his increasing power, but rather to make him paranoid and in the end destroy the world.

 

And in that task, the Aes Sedai has served as an excellent catalyst.

 

The biggest flaw to that argument is the fact that only Moridin knows the Dark One's true plans. All the other Forsaken have no interest in destroying the world. You could argue that the Dark One planned this outcome all along, but you certainly can't argue that that's what the Forsaken intended!

[Manscher]

No, but the forsaken jumped when Moridin, Shaidar or The Dark One himself said frog. Besides they had gotten the order not to hurt him and let the lord of chaos rule. Sowing chaos and hurting Rand emotional was their main purpose for a long time.

[Suttree]

No, but the forsaken jumped when Moridin, Shaidar or The Dark One himself said frog. Besides they had gotten the order not to hurt him and let the lord of chaos rule. Sowing chaos and hurting Rand emotional was their main purpose for a long time.

 

Weren't they supposed to not hurt him because of the link w/ Moridin?