Least Favorite Character

[Mr Ares]

I think people calling out Rand fanboys need to consider the flip-side as well - that they may be Cadsuane fanboys. I don't think anyone denies that Cadsuane has done a lot of good; however, she's done a lot of damage as well, which is more difficult to ascribe actual consequences to. It's easy to say she was instrumental in saving his life. But if she hadn't felt the need to slap him across the face for using a weave she disagreed with (instead of discussing it like an adult), would he have been surprised by Fain in the first place?

The battlefield wasn't really the place for an adult discussion. She can explain her reasons in more detail later, but in those circumstances she needs to get the point across quickly. Slapping him was a good way of achieving that. Also, if you want to blame her for Fain stabbing Rand (something which was unforeseeable, and might well have happened regardless), then bear in mind the fighting between his two wounds helped him with the realisation on how to cleanse saidin. That's more helpful than it is damaging. So what damage has she actually caused to Rand?

 

As b3arz3rg3r points out, first impressions are important. She strides into the room, a typical arrogant Aes Sedai bulling into a situation and attempting to take control, baits Rand and condescendingly calls him a "good boy" - what for? Aren't there more diplomatic/efficient ways of going about helping someone than pissing them off for no reason? Rand is a stubborn ass almost constantly, but so much of her behavior is unprovoked. Again it's hard to ascribe consequences because there are so many variables, but you could make a strong argument that she is a burr under Rand's saddle that aids in driving him down a path which leads to him nearly destroying the world.

If you think you can make a strong argument, try. I'm interested in what you can come up with. Of course, despite the negative first impression she may leave on the reader, she has a reason for what she does, her methods are tried and tested, and she, more than any other AS, more than any other person, tries to undo the emotional damage that has been done to Rand. She didn't start him down his dark path, but she did more than anyone else to get him off it. And ultimately, she was successful, albeit only in a somewhat roundabout way.

 

I do agree with Shen's questioning: why did she need to come off that way on their first meeting? That sort of display of personality is exactly what pushed him into being a closed off stubborn guy in the first place.

Cadsuane's initial treatment of Rand was a deliberate tactic to learn about him. And she was able to make accurate deductions on his personality based on that. It might not leave us with a good first impression of Cadsuane, but it does have an explanation and justification.

[ShenAnCalhar]

How about a quick "that's the wrong weave to use here, we can discuss it later." Would take 3 seconds to say. "Don't ever use that weave" is, as we know, actually bad advice. I'm not convinced that face-slapping is the way to get your point across in this situation, or in any of the other multiple situations she does it. It just makes her look like an idiot.

 

I'm not going to dig up numerous quotes of her trying to get under Rand's skin when she could be diplomatic, because I really don't care enough to try to sway people to my opinion. I don't think her methods are tried and tested, I think they're blunt and innefective. Her advice and wisdom are good, and it's great that she learns to administer them without the antics of a spoiled child as the series progresses.

 

I disagree that the best way of learning about someone is to piss them off for no reason. Rhuarc knows how to deal with Rand perfectly fine, and he didn't have to act like an ass to figure out how.

[Vardar]

The one thing i like the most about Cadsuane is how little she cares for standing as the white tower sees it.

 

The best instance of this is when she understands that Sorilea is just as willful and has the same goals as her. Instead of being superior because she can channel more powerfully, she respects and listens to Sorilea eventually working with her to save the world from a rand that did not laugh or cry.

 

Any other Aes Sedai besides Egwene would have teied to degrade Sorilea because she is weak in the one power

 

I doubt that. Sorilea runs over AS all the time. She runs over Verin, and she knows it. Other AS look at her sideways and are marvelled by her strength of perosnality.

 

The battlefield wasn't really the place for an adult discussion. She can explain her reasons in more detail later, but in those circumstances she needs to get the point across quickly. Slapping him was a good way of achieving that. Also, if you want to blame her for Fain stabbing Rand (something which was unforeseeable, and might well have happened regardless), then bear in mind the fighting between his two wounds helped him with the realisation on how to cleanse saidin. That's more helpful than it is damaging. So what damage has she actually caused to Rand?

 

Where did you get that? He already had an idea of how to do it when he came out of the Doorway, well before he got his wounds. Is there a quote stating this or something? Maybe I missed it.

 

Im with Shen here, but then again I've stated my opinion countless times and we're just not going to agree.

 

The irony is I really doubt the people who are Cads fanboys would be willing to deal with that behavior in their lives, saving the world be damned.

[Mr Ares]

How about a quick "that's the wrong weave to use here, we can discuss it later." Would take 3 seconds to say. "Don't ever use that weave" is, as we know, actually bad advice. I'm not convinced that face-slapping is the way to get your point across in this situation, or in any of the other multiple situations she does it. It just makes her look like an idiot.

I fail to see how it makes her look stupid. Balefire is, by its nature, dangerous to the Pattern, yet Rand is apparently unaware of that, given his use of it. Cadsuane had no reason to think his use of it was justified. In point of fact, neither do we, not in that instance. Saying not to use it isn't any quicker than the slap, and the slap does rather help convey the seriousness of things in as quick a way as possible.

 

I'm not going to dig up numerous quotes of her trying to get under Rand's skin when she could be diplomatic, because I really don't care enough to try to sway people to my opinion. I don't think her methods are tried and tested, I think they're blunt and innefective. Her advice and wisdom are good, and it's great that she learns to administer them without the antics of a spoiled child as the series progresses.

Her methods may be blunt, but they are not ineffective. We see them being effective. And given that she has the best part of 300 years experience, unless this is a recent attitude she has developed I'd say her methods are tired and tested. At worst you could claim that they are merely unsuitable for dealing with Rand, yet that is not the case - they are very effective at dealing with Rand, helping him with his problems (albeit not always in a way he would like). Her methods can hardly be described as the antics of a spoiled child.

 

I disagree that the best way of learning about someone is to piss them off for no reason. Rhuarc knows how to deal with Rand perfectly fine, and he didn't have to act like an ass to figure out how.

The mere fact of doing it for a reason - to learn about him - means you are not doing it for no reason. And Rhuarc is hardly a good example, as Rhuarc is not trying to fix Rand's mental problems. Cadsuane is. She needs a good grasp of his character, Rhuarc only needs to follow orders. Given that they have different goals and different requirements, that they use different methods is unsurprising. Her methods taught her what she needed to know, about his character and mental state. From there, she was able to make informed decisions about what he needed, and the best way to help him.

 

The battlefield wasn't really the place for an adult discussion. She can explain her reasons in more detail later, but in those circumstances she needs to get the point across quickly. Slapping him was a good way of achieving that. Also, if you want to blame her for Fain stabbing Rand (something which was unforeseeable, and might well have happened regardless), then bear in mind the fighting between his two wounds helped him with the realisation on how to cleanse saidin. That's more helpful than it is damaging. So what damage has she actually caused to Rand?

 

Where did you get that? He already had an idea of how to do it when he came out of the Doorway, well before he got his wounds. Is there a quote stating this or something? Maybe I missed it.

Can't find a quote at present, but the two wounds throbbing in counterpoint was mentioned a few times. That helped Rand work out that the solution involved dumping the taint on SL.

 

The irony is I really doubt the people who are Cads fanboys would be willing to deal with that behavior in their lives, saving the world be damned.

No-one is claiming it's pleasant behaviour to be on the receiving end of, only that it is reasonable, effective, and Rand's childishness means it's rather deserved.

[Suttree]

I don't think her methods are tried and tested, I think they're blunt and innefective.

 

Which totally ignores all available info in text and in RJs notes on the character. She is perhaps the most successful of modern AS and her track record over hundreds of years speaks for itself.

 

In addition to that there are all the crucial things she has done in helping Rand achieve his goals and save the world. You could not call her ineffective by any stretch of the imagination. Even people that dislike her tactics would not agree with that.

 

 

[Suttree]

Delete

[driedraspberry]

How about a quick "that's the wrong weave to use here, we can discuss it later." Would take 3 seconds to say. "Don't ever use that weave" is, as we know, actually bad be. I'm not convinced that face-slapping is the way to get your point across in this situation, or in any of the other multiple situations she does it. It just makes her look like an idiot.

I fail to see how it makes her look stupid. Balefire is, by its nature, dangerous to the Pattern, yet Rand is apparently unaware of that, given his use of it. Cadsuane had no reason to think his use of it was justified. In point of fact, neither do we, not in that instance. Saying not to use it isn't any quicker than the slap, and the slap does rather help convey the seriousness of things in as quick a way as possible.

 

I'm not going to dig up numerous quotes of her trying to get under Rand's skin when she could be diplomatic, because I really don't care enough to try to sway people to my opinion. I don't think her methods are tried and tested, I think they're blunt and innefective. Her advice and wisdom are good, and it's great that she learns to administer them without the antics of a spoiled child as the series progresses.

Her methods may be blunt, but they are not ineffective. We see them being effective. And given that she has the best part of 300 years experience, unless this is a recent attitude she has developed I'd say her methods are tired and tested. At worst you could claim that they are merely unsuitable for dealing with Rand, yet that is not the case - they are very effective at dealing with Rand, helping him with his problems (albeit not always in a way he would like). Her methods can hardly be described as the antics of a spoiled child.

 

I disagree that the best way of learning about someone is to piss them off for no reason. Rhuarc knows how to deal with Rand perfectly fine, and he didn't have to act like an ass to figure out how.

The mere fact of doing it for a reason - to learn about him - means you are not doing it for no reason. And Rhuarc is hardly a good example, as Rhuarc is not trying to fix Rand's mental problems. Cadsuane is. She needs a good grasp of his character, Rhuarc only needs to follow orders. Given that they have different goals and different requirements, that they use different methods is unsurprising. Her methods taught her what she needed to know, about his character and mental state. From there, she was able to make informed decisions about what he needed, and the best way to help him.

 

The battlefield wasn't really the place for an adult discussion. She can explain her reasons in more detail later, but in those circumstances she needs to get the point across quickly. Slapping him was a good way of achieving that. Also, if you want to blame her for Fain stabbing Rand (something which was unforeseeable, and might well have happened regardless), then bear in mind the fighting between his two wounds helped him with the realisation on how to cleanse saidin. That's more helpful than it is damaging. So what damage has she actually caused to Rand?

 

Where did you get that? He already had an idea of how to do it when he came out of the Doorway, well before he got his wounds. Is there a quote stating this or something? Maybe I missed it.

Can't find a quote at present, but the two wounds throbbing in counterpoint was mentioned a few times. That helped Rand work out that the solution involved dumping the taint on SL.

 

The irony is I really doubt the people who are Cads fanboys would be willing to deal with that behavior in their lives, saving the world be damned.

No-one is claiming it's pleasant behaviour to be on the receiving end of, only that it is reasonable, effective, and Rand's childishness means it's rather deserved.

 

You kid with the last bit...right? In no way does Rand deserve to be treated that way. Sure, he has a temper and can be a bully. Is Cads any better? And that's without being in Rand's impossible position.

 

Add to that, I'm not convinced Cads had no other options. She feels that way, but bullying is her default in dealing with difficult people. It just goes to show when AS do something right they go about it the worst way possible. For one she could have started their acquaintance by treating him with respect and be honest upfront, that would've been enough to distinguish her from other AS. Heck she could've achieved all her goals more quickly and at less risk. But of course that's not how AS roll, certainly not Cads.

[Suttree]

Add to that, I'm not convinced Cads had no other options. She feels that way, but bullying is her default in dealing with difficult people. It just goes to show when AS do something right they go about it the worst way possible. For one she could have started their acquaintance by treating him with respect and be honest upfront, that would've been enough to distinguish her from other AS. Heck she could've achieved all her goals more quickly and at less risk. But of course that's not how AS roll, certainly not Cads.

 

The text puts paid to that misperception. We see her us a variety of tactics at any given time of which bullying is only one. We see her offer respect and forge a treaty with Sorilea(who is more difficult than her?), we see a wary exchange of info and confidence with Verin, we see her stroking egos to prop up confidence with Samitsu and Kumira.

 

Lastly she almost unfailingly treats people based upon their actions. Rand at many times acted like a child(tossing things about with the OP and trying to intimidate) and was treated as such. Not only did she not have other options at this point in time but once again her track record of success both with Rand and throughout her career speaks for itself. Argue all you want about not liking how she goes about it but her plan was far more successful than say Moiraine was with him. Here is a great thread on the topic for you to chek out.

 

http://www.dragonmou...es-of-cadsuane/

[driedraspberry]

Add to that, I'm not convinced Cads had no other options. She feels that way, but bullying is her default in dealing with difficult people. It just goes to show when AS do something right they go about it the worst way possible. For one she could have started their acquaintance by treating him with respect and be honest upfront, that would've been enough to distinguish her from other AS. Heck she could've achieved all her goals more quickly and at less risk. But of course that's not how AS roll, certainly not Cads.

 

The text puts paid to that misperception. We see her us a variety of tactics at any given time of which bullying is only one. We see her offer respect and forge a treaty with Sorilea(who is more difficult than her?), we see a wary exchange of info and confidence with Verin, we see her stroking egos to prop up confidence with Samitsu and Kumira.

 

Lastly she almost unfailingly treats people based upon their actions. Rand at many times acted like a child(tossing things about with the OP and trying to intimidate) and was treated as such. Not only did she not have other options at this point in time but once again her track record of success both with Rand and throughout her career speaks for itself. Argue all you want about not liking how she goes about it but her plan was far more successful than say Moiraine was with him. Here is a great thread on the topic for you to chek out.

 

http://www.dragonmou...es-of-cadsuane/

 

Cads more successful than Moiraine? Let's remember that Rand took Moiraine's advice to heart and trusted them 100%. He tailored much of his actions based on what she taught him long after her "death". Rand's distrust of Cads nearly drew him to kill his father. Sorry but there is no comparison.

 

As to Cads' bullying motif, it still stands. Those you've mentioned are not much proof, as Cads doesn't believe she needs to control any of them. Besides, in Sor she recognizes a bigger bully, and as to the other AS, we all know they see each other distinct than men and mere mortals. Show me evidence of her dealing with a person she means to "guide" to follow her path over their own without resorting to bullying.

 

Which brings us back to Moiraine and why I don't believe for a second Cads could bring Rand around to fully trust her. I can hardly believe she wouldn't bully him to achieve her means, and without Min around to convince Rand to keep her around, she'd been exiled in a hot minute.

 

Heck, a few weeks around Cads and Rand/Mat/Perrin might have ran eagerly into DO's arms. :)

[Suttree]

Add to that, I'm not convinced Cads had no other options. She feels that way, but bullying is her default in dealing with difficult people. It just goes to show when AS do something right they go about it the worst way possible. For one she could have started their acquaintance by treating him with respect and be honest upfront, that would've been enough to distinguish her from other AS. Heck she could've achieved all her goals more quickly and at less risk. But of course that's not how AS roll, certainly not Cads.

 

The text puts paid to that misperception. We see her us a variety of tactics at any given time of which bullying is only one. We see her offer respect and forge a treaty with Sorilea(who is more difficult than her?), we see a wary exchange of info and confidence with Verin, we see her stroking egos to prop up confidence with Samitsu and Kumira.

 

Lastly she almost unfailingly treats people based upon their actions. Rand at many times acted like a child(tossing things about with the OP and trying to intimidate) and was treated as such. Not only did she not have other options at this point in time but once again her track record of success both with Rand and throughout her career speaks for itself. Argue all you want about not liking how she goes about it but her plan was far more successful than say Moiraine was with him. Here is a great thread on the topic for you to chek out.

 

http://www.dragonmou...es-of-cadsuane/

 

Cads more successful than Moiraine? Let's remember that Rand took Moiraine's advice to heart and trusted them 100%. He tailored much of his actions based on what she taught him long after her "death". Rand's distrust of Cads nearly drew him to kill his father. Sorry but there is no comparison.

 

Are you seriously saying Rand almost killing Tam was Cads fault and not because of his "Dark" nature? Moiraine despite pretending otherwise went behind his back with betrayals multiple times(trying to convince the Aiel not to go beyond the Dragonwall to name one). Not to mention her method would never have worked in teaching Rand the lesson he needed to know. Granted it took a lucky twist in the end but her plan worked and is the reason why the world was not already destroyed by Dark Rand.

 

Even setting that aside she saved his life multiple times, rescued him from being sent back and chained by Elaida, backed him to the hilt when he decided to risk destroying the world in cleansing the taint and devised a masterful plan of defense which turned back all the forsaken allowing the biggest miracle the world has seen in recent memeory to happen. From day 1 she had a plan and stuck to it, all while backing Rand harder than anyone besides perhapsh Min. No her influence on multiple levels has had a far bigger impact and that is made absolutely clear. Again dispute her methods all you want, but her success can't really be argued. At the very least twice her actions directly led to giving the world a chance at TG. Did you read the link I gave you btw? Curious to see your thoughts.

[ShenAnCalhar]

I don't think her methods are tried and tested, I think they're blunt and innefective.

 

Which totally ignores all available info in text and in RJs notes on the character. She is perhaps the most successful of modern AS and her track record over hundreds of years speaks for itself.

 

In addition to that there are all the crucial things she has done in helping Rand achieve his goals and save the world. You could not call her ineffective by any stretch of the imagination. Even people that dislike her tactics would not agree with that.

 

I'm not talking about her track record of hunting down men channelling. From what we know she was quite good at that. I just don't know how you can assume Cadsuane was the one responsible for Rand "finding his humanity" so to speak. Rand went into a downward spiral (one that I believe was accelerated by Cads' mismanagement) and then recovered. You can't baselessly attribute his recovery to Cadsuane. What did she do that we know for a fact was helpful? As an example, straight-out told Rand that Callandor is flawed - that's the kind of information he can and did use. I'm not at all convinced that her other "methods" were successful in the least.

 

From what I can tell, there are the people that believe she needed to treat Rand like a child, and those that think she should have treated him with a degree of respect. I'm in the latter camp, and I don't see anyone crossing the line.

[driedraspberry]

Add to that, I'm not convinced Cads had no other options. She feels that way, but bullying is her default in dealing with difficult people. It just goes to show when AS do something right they go about it the worst way possible. For one she could have started their acquaintance by treating him with respect and be honest upfront, that would've been enough to distinguish her from other AS. Heck she could've achieved all her goals more quickly and at less risk. But of course that's not how AS roll, certainly not Cads.

 

The text puts paid to that misperception. We see her us a variety of tactics at any given time of which bullying is only one. We see her offer respect and forge a treaty with Sorilea(who is more difficult than her?), we see a wary exchange of info and confidence with Verin, we see her stroking egos to prop up confidence with Samitsu and Kumira.

 

Lastly she almost unfailingly treats people based upon their actions. Rand at many times acted like a child(tossing things about with the OP and trying to intimidate) and was treated as such. Not only did she not have other options at this point in time but once again her track record of success both with Rand and throughout her career speaks for itself. Argue all you want about not liking how she goes about it but her plan was far more successful than say Moiraine was with him. Here is a great thread on the topic for you to chek out.

 

http://www.dragonmou...es-of-cadsuane/

 

Cads more successful than Moiraine? Let's remember that Rand took Moiraine's advice to heart and trusted them 100%. He tailored much of his actions based on what she taught him long after her "death". Rand's distrust of Cads nearly drew him to kill his father. Sorry but there is no comparison.

 

Are you seriously saying Rand almost killing Tam was Cads fault and not because of his "Dark" nature? Moiraine despite pretending otherwise went behind his back with betrayals multiple times(trying to convince the Aiel not to go beyond the Dragonwall to name one). Not to mention her method would never have worked in teaching Rand the lesson he needed to know. Granted it took a lucky twist in the end but her plan worked and is the reason why the world was not already destroyed by Dark Rand.

 

Even setting that aside she saved his life multiple times, rescued him from being sent back and chained by Elaida, backed him to the hilt when he decided to risk destroying the world in cleansing the taint and devised a masterful plan of defense which turned back all the forsaken allowing the biggest miracle the world has seen in recent memeory to happen. From day 1 she had a plan and stuck to it, all while backing Rand harder than anyone besides perhapsh Min. No her influence on multiple levels has had a far bigger impact and that is made absolutely clear. At the very least twice her actions directly led to giving the world a chance at TG. Did you read the link I gave you btw?

 

I'm not disputing anything Cads has achieved, certainly not saving his life or backing him up. However, I don't for a second believe she had to bully and humiliate him achieve those things.

 

I'm also not saying she is to blame for Rand's action. I was showing proof of how much Rand distrusts her, as the mere mention of her is a trigger for a surge of paranoia.

 

I actually appreciate Cads because she is the best consequence of everything bad about AS' class in their society, while Elaida is the worst. A big difference between Cads and Moiraine is that the latter managed to break out of that box while the former acts within that box.

 

I have read through the thread you linked. I lurk a lot and Cads is one of those I like to read about.

[ShenAnCalhar]

Also I feel I need to post this:

 

"Al'Thor. She had to face the truth: she had bungled her handling of him."

-TGS, "A Promise to Lews Therin" p. 474

 

Straight from the horses mouth. She herself believes that her methods of "handling" him were incorrect. So by arguing for her methods, you're disagreeing with Cadsuane. If she were here, she would slap you. =)

[Vardar]

Can't find a quote at present, but the two wounds throbbing in counterpoint was mentioned a few times. That helped Rand work out that the solution involved dumping the taint on SL.

 

I'll find the quote right after the Doorway where he said he knew how to do it.

 

No-one is claiming it's pleasant behaviour to be on the receiving end of, only that it is reasonable, effective, and Rand's childishness means it's rather deserved.

 

You claim it's in response to Rand's behavior, yet she started it the first time they met. So it can't be in response to his behavior, at least not his known behavior. If you're going to claim off screen she heard rumors, well I'd argue that's more childish than anything Rand has done.

[Vardar]

Add to that, I'm not convinced Cads had no other options. She feels that way, but bullying is her default in dealing with difficult people. It just goes to show when AS do something right they go about it the worst way possible. For one she could have started their acquaintance by treating him with respect and be honest upfront, that would've been enough to distinguish her from other AS. Heck she could've achieved all her goals more quickly and at less risk. But of course that's not how AS roll, certainly not Cads.

 

The text puts paid to that misperception. We see her us a variety of tactics at any given time of which bullying is only one. We see her offer respect and forge a treaty with Sorilea(who is more difficult than her?), we see a wary exchange of info and confidence with Verin, we see her stroking egos to prop up confidence with Samitsu and Kumira.

 

Lastly she almost unfailingly treats people based upon their actions. Rand at many times acted like a child(tossing things about with the OP and trying to intimidate) and was treated as such. Not only did she not have other options at this point in time but once again her track record of success both with Rand and throughout her career speaks for itself. Argue all you want about not liking how she goes about it but her plan was far more successful than say Moiraine was with him. Here is a great thread on the topic for you to chek out.

 

http://www.dragonmou...es-of-cadsuane/

 

 

One day you'll stop using those 4 situations to explain a character who bullies dozens of other people. Simple numbers proves your idea wrong.

 

I believe, I really do. I have faith that one day you'll understand that if someone does something more often than not, generally speaking, that's their natural state.

[Clouded]

Cads more successful than Moiraine? Let's remember that Rand took Moiraine's advice to heart and trusted them 100%. He tailored much of his actions based on what she taught him long after her "death". Rand's distrust of Cads nearly drew him to kill his father. Sorry but there is no comparison.

 

I won't say Cads ended up more successful than Moiraine, because I don't attribute Rand's "return from the dark path" to her. But, you must admit there was an inherent flaw in Moiraine's method of handling Rand. Rand would only listen to her if he was willing to accept her advice. There were many times where he simply refused to hear her advice, telling her to cool off. Moiraine would not have been able to convince Rand to change any more than Cadsuane, or anyone else. Rand simply would've refused to hear that his decisions were wrong.

 

Cadsuane's methods got him to take advice he did not want to hear and do things he did not want to do. We saw this when she ordered that Rand must be civil to Aes Sedai and to fellow Asha'man. Cadsuane's methods do more than Moiraine's ever could.

[driedraspberry]

Cads more successful than Moiraine? Let's remember that Rand took Moiraine's advice to heart and trusted them 100%. He tailored much of his actions based on what she taught him long after her "death". Rand's distrust of Cads nearly drew him to kill his father. Sorry but there is no comparison.

 

I won't say Cads ended up more successful than Moiraine, because I don't attribute Rand's "return from the dark path" to her. But, you must admit there was an inherent flaw in Moiraine's method of handling Rand. Rand would only listen to her if he was willing to accept her advice. There were many times where he simply refused to hear her advice, telling her to cool off. Moiraine would not have been able to convince Rand to change any more than Cadsuane, or anyone else. Rand simply would've refused to hear that his decisions were wrong.

 

Cadsuane's methods got him to take advice he did not want to hear and do things he did not want to do. We saw this when she ordered that Rand must be civil to Aes Sedai and to fellow Asha'man. Cadsuane's methods do more than Moiraine's ever could.

 

I would attribute that to Min. If Moiraine had as much a leg up with Rand she'd have a smooth ride with him.

 

What Moiraine actually did was find a way to make Rand absolutely trust her. There were instances where he told her to cool off yes, but there were much more of those where Moiraine sneaked her valuable guidance by talking while he was eating etc.

 

Let's be real, without Min's viewing Rand wouldn't have let Cads anywhere near him.

[Suttree]

Cads more successful than Moiraine? Let's remember that Rand took Moiraine's advice to heart and trusted them 100%. He tailored much of his actions based on what she taught him long after her "death". Rand's distrust of Cads nearly drew him to kill his father. Sorry but there is no comparison.

 

I won't say Cads ended up more successful than Moiraine, because I don't attribute Rand's "return from the dark path" to her. But, you must admit there was an inherent flaw in Moiraine's method of handling Rand. Rand would only listen to her if he was willing to accept her advice. There were many times where he simply refused to hear her advice, telling her to cool off. Moiraine would not have been able to convince Rand to change any more than Cadsuane, or anyone else. Rand simply would've refused to hear that his decisions were wrong.

 

Cadsuane's methods got him to take advice he did not want to hear and do things he did not want to do. We saw this when she ordered that Rand must be civil to Aes Sedai and to fellow Asha'man. Cadsuane's methods do more than Moiraine's ever could.

 

I would attribute that to Min. If Moiraine had as much a leg up with Rand she'd have a smooth ride with him.

 

What Moiraine actually did was find a way to make Rand absolutely trust her. There were instances where he told her to cool off yes, but there were much more of those where Moiraine sneaked her valuable guidance by talking while he was eating etc.

 

Let's be real, without Min's viewing Rand wouldn't have let Cads anywhere near him.

 

I just find it odd that people have such a problem with Cads but always praise Moir. Don't get me wrong I really like her, but in the end her intial method of controlling him didn't work so she tried another in submitting. As Luckers recently said:

 

"She submitted in order to gain influence--and let's not forget her greatest betrayal of Rand (going behind his back to try and convince the Wise Ones to break the Aiel away from him and not cross the Dragonwall) ocurred AFTER she submitted."

 

Not only would Moir's method not have worked like Cad's did, for all that Cads is deemd uppity and mean she has always backed him to the hilt. Further her actions in protecting him and swearing to do what is best for him, not herself and the WT ring far more honest than Moir's own actions in which she submitted to gain further control and then played out her subsequent betrayals..

[thisguy]

Cads more successful than Moiraine? Let's remember that Rand took Moiraine's advice to heart and trusted them 100%. He tailored much of his actions based on what she taught him long after her "death". Rand's distrust of Cads nearly drew him to kill his father. Sorry but there is no comparison.

 

I won't say Cads ended up more successful than Moiraine, because I don't attribute Rand's "return from the dark path" to her. But, you must admit there was an inherent flaw in Moiraine's method of handling Rand. Rand would only listen to her if he was willing to accept her advice. There were many times where he simply refused to hear her advice, telling her to cool off. Moiraine would not have been able to convince Rand to change any more than Cadsuane, or anyone else. Rand simply would've refused to hear that his decisions were wrong.

 

Cadsuane's methods got him to take advice he did not want to hear and do things he did not want to do. We saw this when she ordered that Rand must be civil to Aes Sedai and to fellow Asha'man. Cadsuane's methods do more than Moiraine's ever could.

 

I would attribute that to Min. If Moiraine had as much a leg up with Rand she'd have a smooth ride with him.

 

What Moiraine actually did was find a way to make Rand absolutely trust her. There were instances where he told her to cool off yes, but there were much more of those where Moiraine sneaked her valuable guidance by talking while he was eating etc.

 

Let's be real, without Min's viewing Rand wouldn't have let Cads anywhere near him.

 

I just find it odd that people have such a problem with Cads but always praise Moir. Don't get me wrong I really like her, but in the end her intial method of controlling him didn't work so she tried another in submitting. As Luckers recently said:

 

"She submitted in order to gain influence--and let's not forget her greatest betrayal of Rand (going behind his back to try and convince the Wise Ones to break the Aiel away from him and not cross the Dragonwall) ocurred AFTER she submitted."

 

Not only would Moir's method not have worked like Cad's did, for all that Cads is deemd uppity and mean she has always backed him to the hilt. Further her actions in protecting him and swearing to do what is best for him, not herself and the WT ring far more honest than Moir's own actions in which she submitted to gain further control and then played out her subsequent betrayals..

I get what you're saying. I think there's a few reason why people could like Moir more

1. She's there from the beginning - whether it's fair or not, she's the 'devil you know'

2. i just liked her more - hahaha ;)

3. on a side note - i don't think Moir was trying to do what was best for the WT - unless you want to argue that what she thought was best for him in terms of being the Dragon and fulfilling prophecies was best for everyone. I will say this, while she was probably wrong in wanting to do things differently, she didn't want him going to Tear because she thought he wasn't ready and didn't want him dying or worse. Also, she didn't want him going to the Aiel because she didn't know they were the people of the dragon. Her knowledge is flawed but I think she did care - she's just an overbearing mother. But, in that way, she's not much different than Cads, I just like her style more. ;)

[driedraspberry]

Cads more successful than Moiraine? Let's remember that Rand took Moiraine's advice to heart and trusted them 100%. He tailored much of his actions based on what she taught him long after her "death". Rand's distrust of Cads nearly drew him to kill his father. Sorry but there is no comparison.

 

I won't say Cads ended up more successful than Moiraine, because I don't attribute Rand's "return from the dark path" to her. But, you must admit there was an inherent flaw in Moiraine's method of handling Rand. Rand would only listen to her if he was willing to accept her advice. There were many times where he simply refused to hear her advice, telling her to cool off. Moiraine would not have been able to convince Rand to change any more than Cadsuane, or anyone else. Rand simply would've refused to hear that his decisions were wrong.

 

Cadsuane's methods got him to take advice he did not want to hear and do things he did not want to do. We saw this when she ordered that Rand must be civil to Aes Sedai and to fellow Asha'man. Cadsuane's methods do more than Moiraine's ever could.

 

I would attribute that to Min. If Moiraine had as much a leg up with Rand she'd have a smooth ride with him.

 

What Moiraine actually did was find a way to make Rand absolutely trust her. There were instances where he told her to cool off yes, but there were much more of those where Moiraine sneaked her valuable guidance by talking while he was eating etc.

 

Let's be real, without Min's viewing Rand wouldn't have let Cads anywhere near him.

 

I just find it odd that people have such a problem with Cads but always praise Moir. Don't get me wrong I really like her, but in the end her intial method of controlling him didn't work so she tried another in submitting. As Luckers recently said:

 

"She submitted in order to gain influence--and let's not forget her greatest betrayal of Rand (going behind his back to try and convince the Wise Ones to break the Aiel away from him and not cross the Dragonwall) ocurred AFTER she submitted."

 

Not only would Moir's method not have worked like Cad's did, for all that Cads is deemd uppity and mean she has always backed him to the hilt. Further her actions in protecting him and swearing to do what is best for him, not herself and the WT ring far more honest than Moir's own actions in which she submitted to gain further control and then played out her subsequent betrayals..

 

The assertion that Cads was more successful with Rand than Moiraine is simply not true. Moiraine molded the DR out of a farm boy. He may have not listened to her in regards to the Aiel, but that was one case where Rand felt absolutely certain about his decision. I can't recall a situation like this with Cads.

 

As to Moiraine vs Cads; we've seen the former interact with Rand (and the whole 2R lot) through many different stages. Sure, she failed at times, but that only caused her to reevaluate her methods and gain grounds. She's been absolutely brilliant in that regard. While Cads has intentions as good as Mor's, I don't see her as versatile nor anywhere as competent in regards to Rand.

 

Edit:

Personally, I find Moiraine a mastermind but not one devoid of humanity. I love the relationship that develops between her and Rand the 2R crowd. She's the only AS we've seen capable of gelling. I could go on for ages tbh... Is there an Cads vs Moiraine thread?

[Clouded]

Can't find a quote at present, but the two wounds throbbing in counterpoint was mentioned a few times. That helped Rand work out that the solution involved dumping the taint on SL.

 

I'll find the quote right after the Doorway where he said he knew how to do it.

 

I believe the quote that has your doorway answer, and Ares' wound hint explanation is in the following.

 

He had asked once, warily, where he knew the answers would be true, how to cleanse the taint from saidin. And got a riddle for answer. Herid Fel had claimed the riddle stated "sound principles, in both high philosophy and natural philosophy," but he had not see any way to apply it to the problem at hand. Had Fel been killed because he might have puzzled out the riddle? Rand had a hint at the answer, or thought he might, a guess that could be disastrously wrong. Hints and riddles were not answers, yet he had to do something.

 

The hint that Rand has, is the two wounds in his side. Many times during the book, they throb in unison, and in opposition. This is further backed up when you read RJ's explanation of what happened at the cleansing.

 

You don't think it's obvious? Err, let's see. You have... You're using both repulsion and attraction of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and [attraction] of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh... as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright?

Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not as mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand...

To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. [He's been waving his hands in the air for this. Hands far apart for the straight line versus hands together, making a circle and coming together again] That will both attract one another and negate one another.

 

The wounds in his side each parallel what is used in the cleansing. The wound from Ishamael parallels the Taint on saidin. The wound from Fain parallels the tain of Shadar Logoth.

[Suttree]

Cads more successful than Moiraine? Let's remember that Rand took Moiraine's advice to heart and trusted them 100%. He tailored much of his actions based on what she taught him long after her "death". Rand's distrust of Cads nearly drew him to kill his father. Sorry but there is no comparison.

 

I won't say Cads ended up more successful than Moiraine, because I don't attribute Rand's "return from the dark path" to her. But, you must admit there was an inherent flaw in Moiraine's method of handling Rand. Rand would only listen to her if he was willing to accept her advice. There were many times where he simply refused to hear her advice, telling her to cool off. Moiraine would not have been able to convince Rand to change any more than Cadsuane, or anyone else. Rand simply would've refused to hear that his decisions were wrong.

 

Cadsuane's methods got him to take advice he did not want to hear and do things he did not want to do. We saw this when she ordered that Rand must be civil to Aes Sedai and to fellow Asha'man. Cadsuane's methods do more than Moiraine's ever could.

 

I would attribute that to Min. If Moiraine had as much a leg up with Rand she'd have a smooth ride with him.

 

What Moiraine actually did was find a way to make Rand absolutely trust her. There were instances where he told her to cool off yes, but there were much more of those where Moiraine sneaked her valuable guidance by talking while he was eating etc.

 

Let's be real, without Min's viewing Rand wouldn't have let Cads anywhere near him.

 

I just find it odd that people have such a problem with Cads but always praise Moir. Don't get me wrong I really like her, but in the end her intial method of controlling him didn't work so she tried another in submitting. As Luckers recently said:

 

"She submitted in order to gain influence--and let's not forget her greatest betrayal of Rand (going behind his back to try and convince the Wise Ones to break the Aiel away from him and not cross the Dragonwall) ocurred AFTER she submitted."

 

Not only would Moir's method not have worked like Cad's did, for all that Cads is deemd uppity and mean she has always backed him to the hilt. Further her actions in protecting him and swearing to do what is best for him, not herself and the WT ring far more honest than Moir's own actions in which she submitted to gain further control and then played out her subsequent betrayals..

 

The assertion that Cads was more successful with Rand than Moiraine is simply not true. Moiraine molded the DR out of a farm boy. He may have not listened to her in regards to the Aiel, but that was one case where Rand felt absolutely certain about his decision. I can't recall a situation like this with Cads.

 

As to Moiraine vs Cads; we've seen the former interact with Rand (and the whole 2R lot) through many different stages. Sure, she failed at times, but that only caused her to reevaluate her methods and gain grounds. She's been absolutely brilliant in that regard. While Cads has intentions as good as Mor's, I don't see her as versatile nor anywhere as competent in regards to Rand.

 

What I was trying to convery is after Moir submitted to further control him she was still not listening and going behind his back to try to affect change such as with the Aiel and WO's example above. It's not about him not listening. It's about her submitting and then going behind his back in an act of betrayal instead of merely advising. Cads is the opposite. Once she knows Randhas made up his mind she backs him to the hilt. Think of the cleansing in which she didn't even blink when she realized what he need to do and then want on to construct a defensive plan allowing him to accomplish the task(keep in mind Rand didn't give a moments thought to who his channeling would attract).

 

WH.

 

Forgive me, Cadsuane," Kumira broke into the silence, heeling her dapple forward. "Young man, have you considered the possibility of failure? Have you considered the consequences of failure?"

"I must ask the same question," Nesune said sharply. She sat very straight in her saddle, and her dark eyes met Rand's gaze levelly. "By everything I have read, the attempt to use those sa'angreal may result in disaster. Together, they might be strong enough to crack the world like an egg."

Like an egg! Lews Therin agreed. They were never tested, never tried. This is insane! he shrieked. You are mad! Mad!

"The last I heard," Rand told the sisters, "one Asha'man in fifty had gone mad and had to be put down like a rabid dog. More will have, by now. There is a risk to doing this, but it's all maybe and might. If I don't try, the certainty is that more and more men will go mad, maybe scores, maybe all of us, and sooner or later it will be too many to be killed easily. Will you enjoy waiting for the Last Battle with a hundred rabid Asha'man wandering about, or two hundred, or five? And maybe me one of them? How long will the world survive that?" He spoke to the two Browns, but it was Cadsuane who he watched. Her almost black eyes never left him. He needed to keep her with him, but if she tried to talk him out of it, he would reject her advice no matter the consequences. If she tried to stop him . . . ? Saidin raged inside him.

"Will you do the deed here?" she asked.

"In Shadar Logoth," he told her, and she nodded.

"A fitting place," she said, "if we are to risk destroying the world."

"

 

Add on to that her saving him in the fog, rescuing him from Elaida's clutches and possibly a broken mind from the cells of Far Madding and most importantly her grand plan to teach him what was necesarry, leading to his epiphany on DM, so the world was not doomed with him winning TG. Rand himself admits she was successful in this. Not sure what you feel Moir has done that is on the same level as any of that?

[thisguy]

She took him from Edmond's Field and saved him and his village from destruction within the first 100 pages. Taught him the Game of Houses and how to read and use people. He even says that he wouldn't know how to deal with the nobles without her tutelage. Saves him from Lanfear at the risk of her own life.

[thisguy]

She took him from Edmond's Field and saved him and his village from destruction within the first 100 pages. Taught him the Game of Houses and how to read and use people. He even says that he wouldn't know how to deal with the nobles without her tutelage. Saves him from Lanfear at the risk of her own life.

 

Oh yeah, saves him from Bel'al in Tear.

 

Edit to add: She's bad ass. She also warns him about the other AS which seems to be some of the best advice anyone's given him after rereading LoC.

[Suttree]

She took him from Edmond's Field and saved him and his village from destruction within the first 100 pages. Taught him the Game of Houses and how to read and use people. He even says that he wouldn't know how to deal with the nobles without her tutelage. Saves him from Lanfear at the risk of her own life.

 

Oh yeah, saves him from Bel'al in Tear.

 

Edit to add: She's bad ass. She also warns him about the other AS which seems to be some of the best advice anyone's given him after rereading LoC.

 

To clarify, Moir is awesome. Totally one of my fav characters and one of the best BA. She played warning him about As very smart without knowing who the BA was after her search ws forced underground by their actions. She did a decent job shaping him for all that she had to keep switiching ways to control him. I just view Cads's plan and direct actions as being far bigger on a global/save the world scale.