Am i the only one who thinks that Nynaeve is plain rubbish?

[Terez]

Probably because Nynaeve had always bullied her - we can see Egwene being a meek good girl as Nynaeve's apprentice - so who can blame her for being glad to have the upper hand for once? Nynaeve was just as horrible to her as to everyone else. Part of the reason Nynaeve has changed for the better is because of Egwene.

 

May I direct your attention to my previous post?

No.

 

Nynaeve didn't follow Egwene around bullying her, Egwene was her apprentice, Nynaeve was her teacher, or boss. Nynaeve bossed everyone around, but she wasn't vindictive about it- she was a point of authority, and she thought she knew what was best for people's own good.

That doesn't make her behavior any more acceptable.

 

I'm sure Egwene was bossed around, boo hoo for her, but does that mean now they are equals (at this point in the story, both were simply Accepted), Egwene should force Nynaeve to be afraid of her and do what she says?

It was the only way of dealing with someone who thought her superiority absolute.

 

That's not equality. By that token, had she been raised AS, rather than Amyrlin, she should have done the same to Moiraine and the other sisters who'd taught her- because they've treated her like a child, bossed her around, patronised her. What about the Wise Ones? Should she feel justified in doing the same to Amys and Bair because they were in authority over her and acted as such?

None of them were as horrible as Nynaeve, and none of them continued to boss Egwene around after her training with them was done. The Wise Ones treated her as an equal after she met her toh, and Moiraine treated her as an equal while she was still Accepted.

[Guest PiotrekS]

but this particular scene is clearly not her highest point and defending it so strongly is pointless IMHO.

I am not pointing to any scene particuarly, just her in general.

 

I know, I was referring to the earlier posts which defended Egwene's treatment of Nynaeve in TAR. That's how Egwene invaded this Nynaeve thread in the first place

 

Actually no it wasn't. Egwene invaded this thread as she usually does, riding in on a wave negative comments. Look to your own post as one of the first that brought her up.

 

True, I'm guilty as charged

 

But the analysis of this scene might be relevant to Nynaeve thread - whether you think that Nynaeve deserved what Egwene did to her and whether Egwene was justified in doing so is partly dependent on your opinion on both Egwene and Nynaeve.

 

And the "Egwene phenomenon", as you call it, is certainly fuelled by more than the nefarious "Egwene-bashers"

 

By the way, I think that the post which said that Nynaeve is especially liked by "Egwene-haters" was the one that really brought Egwene into this discussion (apart from the first one). Egwene is much more polarizing than Nynaeve (as the poll proved ), so the discussion quickly concentrated on her.

[Terez]

I said she was overrated by Egwene-haters. It was relevant to the OP since he claimed Nynaeve was overrated, and he also took the trouble to point out how much he loves Egwene, so obviously he was frustrated by the Nynaeve-worship among Egwene-haters.

 

I don't particularly like or dislike either one of them, but I do think that Egwene-hate and Nynaeve-love get incredibly out of hand.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I said she was overrated by Egwene-haters. It was relevant to the OP since he claimed Nynaeve was overrated, and he also took the trouble to point out how much he loves Egwene, so obviously he was frustrated by the Nynaeve-worship among Egwene-haters.

 

I don't particularly like or dislike either one of them, but I do think that Egwene-hate and Nynaeve-love get incredibly out of hand.

 

Al right, I didn't say I had anything against your post (though I think that there is no causal link between love for Nynaeve and dislike of Egwene - more of a correlation. I think the majority of readers like Nynaeve, and on Egwene opinions differ considerably).

 

It seems Nynaeve and Egwene are connected and it is difficult to discuss one without the other. For example, I would say-and I know who won't agree with me -that Nynaeve shows how great Egwene could have become.

[sleepinghour]

I don't particularly like or dislike either one of them, but I do think that Egwene-hate and Nynaeve-love get incredibly out of hand.

In my (highly biased, Nynaeve-loving ) opinion, she more than deserves all the love she gets, but I also think part of the reason fans like to praise Nynaeve is that in the books she hardly ever gets any credit/praise for her good deeds and accomplishments while Egwene has gotten a huge amount of praise and admiration from other characters lately.

 

EGWENE: Wow, Elaida sucks, doesn't she?

SITTERS: Your observation skills are extraordinary. Please join our Ajahs.

EGWENE: I killed a few Aes Sedai too when I threw fire at the Seanchan, but that's OK, right?

SITTERS: Of course. You're the greatest Amyrlin of all time.

NYNAEVE: Hi, everyone. On my summer vacation, I saved the world from drought and starvation, cleansed saidin, fought Semirhage, prevented Rand from balefiring the Borderlander army, Healed Naeff's madness...

SITTERS: You're clearly unfit to be Aes Sedai. Give back that shawl.

 

Egwene certainly deserves accolades for uniting the Tower, but in the last few books she's been showered with an inordinate amount of praise and admiration from various characters. It was especially egregious in the case of Nicola and Areina; Nynaeve and Elayne saved their lives in FoH, but Nicola and Areina quickly turned on them for a reason that never made sense and then started comparing Egwene to a Hero of the Horn (no, really, I'm not making this up).

 

The contrast became even more obvious when Nynaeve returned to the Tower in ToM. Egwene was called "one of the greatest Amyrlins of all time" while Nynaeve was barely allowed to remain Aes Sedai. Egwene herself also treated Nynaeve shabbily, especially during the testing. So is it really that surprising that many fans ended up resenting Egwene and sympathizing with Nynaeve? The question is whether we're actually meant to have this reaction or RJ/BS completely failed at writing convincing Egwene propaganda.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I don't particularly like or dislike either one of them, but I do think that Egwene-hate and Nynaeve-love get incredibly out of hand.

In my (highly biased, Nynaeve-loving ) opinion, she more than deserves all the love she gets, but I also think part of the reason fans like to praise Nynaeve is that in the books she hardly ever gets any credit/praise for her good deeds and accomplishments while Egwene has gotten a huge amount of praise and admiration from other characters lately.

 

EGWENE: Wow, Elaida sucks, doesn't she?

SITTERS: Your observation skills are extraordinary. Please join our Ajahs.

EGWENE: I killed a few Aes Sedai too when I threw fire at the Seanchan, but that's OK, right?

SITTERS: Of course. You're the greatest Amyrlin of all time.

NYNAEVE: Hi, everyone. On my summer vacation, I saved the world from drought and starvation, cleansed saidin, fought Semirhage, prevented Rand from balefiring the Borderlander army, Healed Naeff's madness...

SITTERS: You're clearly unfit to be Aes Sedai. Give back that shawl.

 

Egwene certainly deserves accolades for uniting the Tower, but in the last few books she's been showered with an inordinate amount of praise and admiration from various characters. It was especially egregious in the case of Nicola and Areina; Nynaeve and Elayne saved their lives in FoH, but Nicola and Areina quickly turned on them for a reason that never made sense and then started comparing Egwene to a Hero of the Horn (no, really, I'm not making this up).

 

The contrast became even more obvious when Nynaeve returned to the Tower in ToM. Egwene was called "one of the greatest Amyrlins of all time" while Nynaeve was barely allowed to remain Aes Sedai. Egwene herself also treated Nynaeve shabbily, especially during the testing. So is it really that surprising that many fans ended up resenting Egwene and sympathizing with Nynaeve? The question is whether we're actually meant to have this reaction or RJ/BS completely failed at writing convincing Egwene propaganda.

 

Very well said

 

But I'm very much afraid it's the latter

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i think they dynamic between nyn' and 'gwene is pretty common. nyn has to be overawing in her position as wisdom because of her youth, and especially with people not very much younger than she is. without the big stick, she gets no respect until she ages into it. and she doesn't get the time for that.

 

then, when the child grows beyond her ability or desire to tolerate the authority, and comes to an age where she also knows everything, there has to be a slap down. like how young men tend to get into a physical fight with their dads when they feel they've come of age, and young women tend to. . . well, i sure did, anyway.

 

overreaction on egwene's part, but understandable as she still feared being caught out as the naughty little girl by her soon to be former authority figure, and acted in haste to repent at leisure. sad for all involved, but after the dust clears, allows them to restart on level ground.

 

i like them both. i like nyn better, but not because of her interactions with 'gwene. i just like how she's ready to face down anyone to protect what needs to be protected.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

(and i wonder how many would have worked themselves up to the froths of emotion evident in these threads without the internet magnifying every criticism and creating urban legends of subtext that may or may not have ever been there; cause before i saw places like this, i didn't have strong feelings about anyone in these books. did y'all?)

[Zentari]

(and i wonder how many would have worked themselves up to the froths of emotion evident in these threads without the internet magnifying every criticism and creating urban legends of subtext that may or may not have ever been there; cause before i saw places like this, i didn't have strong feelings about anyone in these books. did y'all?)

Personally, I had those opinions before I started using this site but that might be because I have discussed things at length with three of my friends who are also reading this series.

[Himiko]

The thing is it goes far beyond this thread. Youre somewhat new to DM, but rest assured the Egwene phenomenon far exceeds any other in it's rabid intensity.

 

I'll admit to having seen a LOT of Egwene criticism on these boards, and indeed, there are more threads dedicated to her. However, I honestly don't believe she gets less "bashing" than Faile in terms of proportions. Nearly every post that mentions Faile's name either says she sucks, or she ruined Perrin's character, that she's a bitch, etc. Its sad, because I like her, but she's an unpopular character, so I go to my Praise for Faile thread to bolster my love, and I live with it :P

 

Probably because Nynaeve had always bullied her - we can see Egwene being a meek good girl as Nynaeve's apprentice - so who can blame her for being glad to have the upper hand for once? Nynaeve was just as horrible to her as to everyone else. Part of the reason Nynaeve has changed for the better is because of Egwene.

 

May I direct your attention to my previous post?

No.

 

Nynaeve didn't follow Egwene around bullying her, Egwene was her apprentice, Nynaeve was her teacher, or boss. Nynaeve bossed everyone around, but she wasn't vindictive about it- she was a point of authority, and she thought she knew what was best for people's own good.

That doesn't make her behavior any more acceptable.

 

I'm sure Egwene was bossed around, boo hoo for her, but does that mean now they are equals (at this point in the story, both were simply Accepted), Egwene should force Nynaeve to be afraid of her and do what she says?

It was the only way of dealing with someone who thought her superiority absolute.

 

That's not equality. By that token, had she been raised AS, rather than Amyrlin, she should have done the same to Moiraine and the other sisters who'd taught her- because they've treated her like a child, bossed her around, patronised her. What about the Wise Ones? Should she feel justified in doing the same to Amys and Bair because they were in authority over her and acted as such?

None of them were as horrible as Nynaeve, and none of them continued to boss Egwene around after her training with them was done. The Wise Ones treated her as an equal after she met her toh, and Moiraine treated her as an equal while she was still Accepted.

 

OK, I guess we have different views on this. To me:

 

- Your teacher is not your friend. Nynaeve is Egwene's teacher, up until she leaves Emond's Field. They are not equals. Of course, Nynaeve has no right to abuse that authority (and I don't believe its ever shown that she is abusive, beyond having dealt out spankings pre series to the children that are the main characters, merely bossy). What behaviour, exactly, is Nynaeve supposed to have used towards Egwene when she was her apprentice, to merit such foul treatment later? Yes, once they go to Tar Valon, they are no longer in the position of Wisdom and Apprentice, merely two girls going into training- and it is Nynaeve, not Egwene, that voices this fact. But before this, back in the Two Rivers, Egwene was not Nynaeve's equal, and had no reason to be treated as such. Unless you're referring to her behaviour post-Two Rivers, in which case I probably wasn't very clear in my initial post- in which case, my apologies, I hope I have clarified things here.

 

- "Only way to deal with someone who thought her superiority was absolute"- well, I'd disagree with this for a number of reasons. For one thing, I don't believe Nynaeve thought her authority was absolute. By her own point of view, she recalls the point at which they became two girls far from home, rather than Wisdom and Apprentice. Clearly, she believes that she and Egwene are on reasonably equal footing, certainly not that she has absolute superiority. I assume, then, that we're assuming that the above argument means that she didn't TREAT Egwene as an equal, at the time of FOH. Personally, I didn't see this. Nynaeve is bossy, and doesn't like admitting to being wrong, I fully understand that this will grate with people and put a lot of them off Nynaeve, that isn't the issue. But lets assume that she does believe she is superior to Egwene. Why, then, doesn't Egwene simply ignore her? She's under no obligation to follow Nynaeve's orders. She wants Nynaeve to be scared of disobeying her, and she seems to enjoy the feeling of authority that she gets from the ability to unnerve Nyn just be raising her eyebrow. Hence the giggling. That =/= wanting to be Nynaeve's equal, that =/= wanting authority over Nynaeve. But I guess we're going to have to disagree.

 

- The Wise Ones treat Egwene as an equal after she meets her toh, and is leaving them. Before that, when she is an apprentice, she is treated as such- she goes through the rituals of being an apprentice- running naked around the camp, being strapped when she misbehaves, being treated like someone who knows less than the person teaching them, performing tasks set by the Wise Ones- not out of cruelty, but because they are her teachers, this is how apprentices are treated, apprentices DON'T know everything about being a Wise One and this is how they believe they learn best. Similarly, with the AS (though I will give you the exception of Moiraine), Egwene has to do chores, is spanked for disobedience, is treated as a pupil who knows less than the AS do, and is treated as a child, despite being considered old enough to braid her hair in her home village. Not out of cruelty, but for the same reasons as the Wise Ones. I'm sure under Nynaeve, she was treated very similarly, for the same reasons. I don't think Nynaeve is some kind of perfect Wisdom who knows everything, and similarly, it has been stated that both Wise Ones and AS lack some weaves that have since been discovered by the Supergirls, have other weaves that are inefficient, and, especially the AS, are shown to be quite petty on occasion. But does that mean Egwene should have them all drinking horrible liquid, having their clothes torn apart in TAR, being addressed as a foolish child, as soon as she gets the oppurtunity, and be happy about it, because once they were mean to her? Once again, where, exactly, is Nynaeve shown to have been such a crappy healer and Wisdom that apparently she was supposed to treat Egwene as an adult equal right from the off? I mean, she's raised as a rebel Amyrlin and half of them still thought of her as just a child and a puppet for ages, hardly being treated as an equal after her training.

 

You say that Nynaeve doesn't treat Egwene as an equal after they finish their relationship as Wisdom and Apprentice? I don't necessarily agree- Nynaeve is bossy to everyone, she certainly seems to think Egwene is on an equal footing with her. Nynaeve comes across to me as someone, certainly in the earlier books, who will try and take charge of a situation and take the lead, not because she thinks everyone around her is an idiot (or, no more so than her, she's one of the characters who scolds herself the most by far), but because that's how she is, or, perhaps more likely, because until she left the Two Rivers, that's what she would have been expected to do.

 

EGWENE: Wow, Elaida sucks, doesn't she?

SITTERS: Your observation skills are extraordinary. Please join our Ajahs.

EGWENE: I killed a few Aes Sedai too when I threw fire at the Seanchan, but that's OK, right?

SITTERS: Of course. You're the greatest Amyrlin of all time.

NYNAEVE: Hi, everyone. On my summer vacation, I saved the world from drought and starvation, cleansed saidin, fought Semirhage, prevented Rand from balefiring the Borderlander army, Healed Naeff's madness...

SITTERS: You're clearly unfit to be Aes Sedai. Give back that shawl.

 

I agree with what you went on to say, but mostly I just wanted to say, this made me giggle ^^

[Zentari]

No.

Nice to the crowd.

That doesn't make her behavior any more acceptable.

Let's go with that.What does THAT make Egwene's behaviour ? Unlike Nyn, she has no excuse for it.Unless of course, we are using double standards here,in which case somehow it's ok for Egwene ?

 

I'm sure Egwene was bossed around, boo hoo for her, but does that mean now they are equals (at this point in the story, both were simply Accepted), Egwene should force Nynaeve to be afraid of her and do what she says?

It was the only way of dealing with someone who thought her superiority absolute.

Funny, Nyn's own POVs blow your argument out of the water.Yes, Nyn is a bossy person but that does not excuse the actions,as you yourself put forth, not to mention that the actions themselves were utterly deplorable.

 

None of them were as horrible as Nynaeve, and none of them continued to boss Egwene around after her training with them was done. The Wise Ones treated her as an equal after she met her toh, and Moiraine treated her as an equal while she was still Accepted.

I look forward very much to the quotes you undoubtedly forgot to post, specifically the parts where Nynaeve goes out of her way to humiliate and scare Egwene just because she can or simply to cover her own ass.

[Stitch]

Well Egwene in Tar (and also the starry dreamscape thing) often abuses her powers and thinks nothing of it - how she uses that to deal with others is quite disgusting but hasnt much to do with the question of Nyn's qualities.

 

Positives:

Brave - though sometimes ignoring danger or assuming it well in hand

Loyal - going out of her way to look after Lan and the Edmond's fielders, though sometimes regardless of their wishes

Skilled at healing - rediscovered healing weaves (including treating madness) and discovering how to cure stilling

Desire to help - she is constantly attempting to help people (especially healing, or ladies/children though seldom men) even if detrimental to her

Knowledgeable of non power healing - she is very good in her field of expertise, be it herbs and midwivery or so forth

Formidable presence - she is able to get people doing what she wants, though often this makes her think that is how it SHOULD be and browbeating or even thumping those that disagree

Independent - she is quite capable in herself to take care of most things, though this sometimes makes her reluctant to ask for or accept help

 

 

The negatives are pretty simple really:

Meddling - almost EVERY SINGLE women in the series is a meddler, Nynaeve is one of them.

Condescending - she always thinks she knows best, it can make her disregard others and what they have to say

Argumentative - she seems to really want to hold onto what she believes and her positions, regardless of what others content. This makes her very stubborn and given that she seems to like talking (and her background as the wisdom i suppose) this leads to her getting ready to argue every little point

Ungracious - she doesnt give people the thanks they often deserve for helping her, in part this is because she doesnt like accepting help in the first place and secondly its also likely due at least in part because she thinks it is natural, that everyone should help (remember her desire to help others) regardless of thanks. If I was Mat I wouldn't have helped in Ebou Dar(sp?) after the thanks I got at the stone of tear, regardless of his promises to Rand.

[Justanotherfacet]

Mmmm Faile really is a pain in the ass though isnt she... Luckily I was always a Rand/Mat fan and never felt any connection with Perrin so she didn't ruin him for me.

 

EGWENE: Wow, Elaida sucks, doesn't she?

SITTERS: Your observation skills are extraordinary. Please join our Ajahs.

EGWENE: I killed a few Aes Sedai too when I threw fire at the Seanchan, but that's OK, right?

SITTERS: Of course. You're the greatest Amyrlin of all time.

NYNAEVE: Hi, everyone. On my summer vacation, I saved the world from drought and starvation, cleansed saidin, fought Semirhage, prevented Rand from balefiring the Borderlander army, Healed Naeff's madness...

SITTERS: You're clearly unfit to be Aes Sedai. Give back that shawl.

 

hehehe well they didn't see Nyn do any of that, they just kinda assumed she was a naughty accepted telling everyone she was an aes sedai and who probably spent her time away from the tower in a tea shop in Baerlon sighing over some strapping young carpenter or another.

 

Plus Nyn is just so damn abrasive that so many (childish) aes sedai don't want to credit her. What i think was cool was how Nyn (FINALLY) realized how she disrespects people with her sharp tongue.

 

ToM Chptr 20 A Choice

"Excellant excellant," Rosil said. "Might i suggest you move the ring to the third finger of your left hand?" "You may suggest it," Nynaeve said, but did not move the ring. She had been named Aes Sedai. She would not give in on that point. Rosil pursed her lips but said nothing further. The woman had showed Nynaeve remarkable kindness during her short time in the White Tower [...] being burr in her sandal was not a good repayment. "Its important to me, Rosil," Nynaeve explained, "that I not give any indication of disrespect for the Amyrlin. She named me Aes Sedai. To act as if I were merely accepted would be to undermine her words. [...] Rosil cocked her head, then nodded. "Yes i see. You are correct." Nynaeve stopped in the dim corridor. "I want to thank you, and the others who have welcomed me these last days - Niere and Meramor. [...] But tradition still holds. No speaking for the rest of the ceremony, please. The lanky woman continued leading the way. Nynaeve followed, biting off a retort. She would not let her nerves rule her.

 

my first quote ever btw =D

 

For me, that was Nyns redeeming moment in the series. She always pissed me off because as smart and talented and skilled or competent as she may show herself be, she has always been so fucking retarded when it came to social interactions prior to this point. Being a very social person myself, it annoyed me that she did thing in such a dumb, pointless and time wasting way.

 

Maybe thats why i like Ege more, she has charisma and charm and still has some girly quirks that make her much more attractive to me. (well more attractive than the other girls, RJ wasn't a great romance writer lol)

[anotherfingolfin]

like how young men tend to get into a physical fight with their dads when they feel they've come of age

 

Wait, what? Uh, no. Not really. I'm certain that's not common enough to make a generalisation, by a long shot. Which is an understatement.

[Stitch]

Nor would it be similar - instead it would be like a young man getting into a fight with his dad who was hogtied.

[csarmi]

Am i the only one who thinks that Nynaeve is plain rubbish?

 

Yup.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

like how young men tend to get into a physical fight with their dads when they feel they've come of age

 

Wait, what? Uh, no. Not really. I'm certain that's not common enough to make a generalisation, by a long shot. Which is an understatement.

 

 

sorry, didn't mean to imply it was universal. i used the word tend so as not to imply it, but i communicated badly.

 

i suppose i work with a more dysfunctional segment of the population than that to which you belong. but the situation is not uncommon. from pushing/shoving, to throwing things at, to punching. and worse. and then it usually blows over. people tend to do much worse things to family members and authority figures, but i'll spare us all that.

 

it's off topic, and wasn't meant as an affront, so, again, sorry. consider it dropped.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

No.

Nice to the crowd.

That doesn't make her behavior any more acceptable.

Let's go with that.What does THAT make Egwene's behaviour ? Unlike Nyn, she has no excuse for it.Unless of course, we are using double standards here,in which case somehow it's ok for Egwene ?

 

I'm sure Egwene was bossed around, boo hoo for her, but does that mean now they are equals (at this point in the story, both were simply Accepted), Egwene should force Nynaeve to be afraid of her and do what she says?

It was the only way of dealing with someone who thought her superiority absolute.

Funny, Nyn's own POVs blow your argument out of the water.Yes, Nyn is a bossy person but that does not excuse the actions,as you yourself put forth, not to mention that the actions themselves were utterly deplorable.

 

None of them were as horrible as Nynaeve, and none of them continued to boss Egwene around after her training with them was done. The Wise Ones treated her as an equal after she met her toh, and Moiraine treated her as an equal while she was still Accepted.

I look forward very much to the quotes you undoubtedly forgot to post, specifically the parts where Nynaeve goes out of her way to humiliate and scare Egwene just because she can or simply to cover her own ass.

 

+ 1. Well said, and it needed saying.

[Apple13]

I don't particularly like or dislike either one of them, but I do think that Egwene-hate and Nynaeve-love get incredibly out of hand.

In my (highly biased, Nynaeve-loving ) opinion, she more than deserves all the love she gets, but I also think part of the reason fans like to praise Nynaeve is that in the books she hardly ever gets any credit/praise for her good deeds and accomplishments while Egwene has gotten a huge amount of praise and admiration from other characters lately.

 

EGWENE: Wow, Elaida sucks, doesn't she?

SITTERS: Your observation skills are extraordinary. Please join our Ajahs.

EGWENE: I killed a few Aes Sedai too when I threw fire at the Seanchan, but that's OK, right?

SITTERS: Of course. You're the greatest Amyrlin of all time.

NYNAEVE: Hi, everyone. On my summer vacation, I saved the world from drought and starvation, cleansed saidin, fought Semirhage, prevented Rand from balefiring the Borderlander army, Healed Naeff's madness...

SITTERS: You're clearly unfit to be Aes Sedai. Give back that shawl.

 

Egwene certainly deserves accolades for uniting the Tower, but in the last few books she's been showered with an inordinate amount of praise and admiration from various characters. It was especially egregious in the case of Nicola and Areina; Nynaeve and Elayne saved their lives in FoH, but Nicola and Areina quickly turned on them for a reason that never made sense and then started comparing Egwene to a Hero of the Horn (no, really, I'm not making this up).

 

The contrast became even more obvious when Nynaeve returned to the Tower in ToM. Egwene was called "one of the greatest Amyrlins of all time" while Nynaeve was barely allowed to remain Aes Sedai. Egwene herself also treated Nynaeve shabbily, especially during the testing. So is it really that surprising that many fans ended up resenting Egwene and sympathizing with Nynaeve? The question is whether we're actually meant to have this reaction or RJ/BS completely failed at writing convincing Egwene propaganda.

 

That's so true. Even thought I started liking Egwene better after TGS, I thought the Aes Sedai in the Tower were praising Egwene way too much even though she only pointed out the obvious. I mean sure she was courageous enough to do so, but basically all the sensible ones were thinking those thoughts anyways, so I don't see why they would be thinking of Egwene as so amazingly logical and insightful. Especially with all of those Sitters and Ajah Heads practically begging her to join their group (excepting the Red and the Green of course).

 

Though I think it's worth pointing out that not all of the Sitters think Egwene is the greatest Amyrlin of all time, only the former Black Ajah Hunters seem to think that. And most of the Black Ajah Hunters seem to be the type that would accept Nynaeve as a full Aes Sedai. I think the ones that were present at Nynaeve's testing both passed her. The sitters from the Salidar White Tower were mostly trying to manipulate around Egwene (esp. Lelaine and Romanda).

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

I wint no wuth thus, because while I hiv bun ennoyed wuth hir un the pust, she duzn't ennoy me thut much. Ugwine, on the other hend, does a but more. End no, I rickon Kiwi eccents are puss funny.

[Guest grotepas]

Well, if you want to compare Nynaeve and Egwene:

 

Nynaeve has helped clean the source, bested a Forsaken (twice), figured out how to heal stilling, figured out how to heal the madness caused by the taint, been Rand's only truly loyal supporter (who isn't in love with him), stayed true to her roots, beliefs and values, and never once thought about how she could use everyone around her to attain her own goals and ideas, irrespective of how unethical and downright nasty that could be. Oh, and she made sure that Lan goes to the Blight with an army, instead of cantering on towards his own little suicide mission. She is also one of the characters most willing to learn from her mistakes.

 

Egwene has trained with the Wise Ones (whom she lied to - whether toh is met or not, I still don't like it), treated Rand, Perrin and Mat like dirt, treated Nynaeve and Elayne like dirt, treated Gawyn like dirt, treated Siun like dirt, manipulated the Salidar Aes Sedai (don't blame her for that one), stared down Elaida (kudos for that one) and reunited the White Tower. She also tried to tie Perrin up in TAR, in the middle of a battle, with no regard for his safety, and it took Gawyn almost dying for her to realise that she isn't always right. On the other hand, she captured Mesaana (although she almost caused a massacre whilst doing it). She's constantly looking at people as little chess pieces to be moved according to her whims. I realise that leaders have to think strategically, but she's taken it to much too cold a level.

 

Hmm, can't for the life of me see why anyone would like Nynaeve more than Egwene ;-)

 

I came out of lurker mode just to say I agree with this. I never thought I didn't like Egwene until the last few books. She's become a jerk, while Nynaeve has become better. I never felt a real visceral response to Egwene until she started behaving like an automaton and treating her friends like puppets. And it really bothers me that her response to Rand's explanation to break the seals is that he shouldn't do it. Has she been studying the prophecies? What special knowledge does she have of what he must do? It's highly annoying that she's so conceited in her station as Amyrlin that she thinks she knows what he must do or not do. Nynaeve, as others have observed, has aged well. Plus, I did always love the way she was able to track Moraine and Lan after they ran off with the kids from Two Rivers, and it definitely slayed me that Lan was so frustrated that it was a WOMAN, of all things, who was able to follow them. Nynaeve, though often annoying, has many more moments of redemption than any of the other women (excepting Moiraine, who is legendary).

[Seaine Sedai]

I was thinking about this today. Jordan is from South Carolina. I'm from North Carolina and have lived here all my life.

I was always rather impressed with the way that Jordan portrayed women because in my mind, he had a very good grasp of them. So many people say there's a lot of sexism in the books, but I had never thought so. I always thought he was very observant in how men and women think/act around each other. Oh by the way, just to be absolutely clear here, I am a woman.

So what I am thinking is this: The Two Rivers folks especially (because you see it more from them directly in POVS) think/act/behave a lot like Southerners. And if you want to call sexism, well then you're probably mostly right when it comes to the South still. Older people especially (from around the Baby Boomers agers and older) have an especially difficult time here in the South when it comes to things going outside of gender roles or the norms of society changing.

 

Nynaeve and Egwene are often praised or condemned in this forum for their attitudes. In the first few books, I couldn't stand Egwene. WHY? Because she reminded me of so many girls I went to high school with. Nynaeve only slightly less got on my nerves because she had so many flaws like Southern ladies in their 20's I could think of. but then after awhile that sort of endeared me to them as well. Southern girls are taught to be really sweet girls, but at the same time we're also taught how we have to be tough and set people straight. It's no wonder so many Southern girls are crazy and Bi-Polar--I have to think a lot of it is a learned behavior due to all the contradictions you're expected to live up to when you live here.

 

So I'd say Jordan was mostly writing what he knows. I think he's been brilliant. And I think even if Nynaeve would be the sort of person that if I were around I'd probably either want to hug her or punch her, overall I'd say she's a wonderful character. She's a testament to how far you can come just on your own potential even if most of the time you had to get yourself there with no help or with a lot of opposition.

With Egwene, well over time I just had to remember that's she's this pretty petite girl and being what is considered a "pretty petite girl" in this society myself, it's infuriating when people just automatically assume they need to protect you or tell you what to do because pretty little petite girls are just supposed to stand there and look pretty. God forbid they have a brain. It took some powerful women of different societies to give Egwene some credit that she was much more than that for her to stop being automatically snotty and having her back up and to actually realize her potential. It's obvious from the start she's a born leader but that comes from within and being the pretty petite girl she was limited by what people saw on the outside. So I just can't hate on Egwene anymore either, I relate to her as well. I had trouble doing so in the first few books because her snotty superior attitude annoyed me, but we often hate in others things we don't like seeing in ourselves, and I have to admit now (that I'm 30) as a teenager I was a lot more like Egwene at that age than I wanted to admit to myself when I first started reading the books (again because I was at that age). I just wish I could say that I've been taught by brilliant leaders in different societies and gone on to be a powerful leader in the world, but alas, I have not.

[Puny]

 

With Egwene, well over time I just had to remember that's she's this pretty petite girl and being what is considered a "pretty petite girl" in this society myself, it's infuriating when people just automatically assume they need to protect you or tell you what to do because pretty little petite girls are just supposed to stand there and look pretty. God forbid they have a brain. It took some powerful women of different societies to give Egwene some credit that she was much more than that for her to stop being automatically snotty and having her back up and to actually realize her potential. It's obvious from the start she's a born leader but that comes from within and being the pretty petite girl she was limited by what people saw on the outside.

 

This I disagree with. Where was Egwene shown to be a born leader early in the series? The one tiny smudge I can agree with is that she wanted to see the world on her own, but that leading to her being an Amyrlin and a "good" Amyrlin is a strech imo.

I understand what you wrote about RJ being a southerner and all that. The problem I have with that is that RJ intended to build up a world were the women ruled, where they had the power. Egwene has no reason to feel inferior because she is a pretty little thing, it´s the men that should feel hounded for all the women believing they are gonna get mad and break the world. That we still see women as inferior in context to the books is odd.. but maybe that´s just our world view shining into the WoT -world.

[Finnssss22]

Yes Nyn is hot tempered and takes the motto of "Do as I say, not as I do" to the extreme but at the end of the day she is one of the very few characters, whose heart, motives and actions are unquestionably the same now in book 13 as they were in book 1.

 

She still wants to save everyone and refuses to accept even a single loss.

[Superhal]

I don't remember if I posted in this thread already, but I started a Nynaeve Haters Club (nHc) back in the '90's. Why we hated Nynaeve:

 

1. Immature and childish, especially in the early books when she kept fighting with Egwene and Elayne had to be the peacemaker.

2. Ornery and stubborn when she doesn't get her way. "Don't you pull that braid at me!"

3. Had Lan (who was hugely popular at the time) wrapped around her finger, when there were tons of hotter chicks around. She didn't even do anything, Lan just got drawn to her like a fly in a spider's web. One minute she's throwing a braid-pulling tantrum, the next minute he's promising his heart to her.

4. Most importantly to me: sheer cowardice. This was ~book 6 or so when she pooped herself when she thought Moggy was around, and right after Mat got the medallion and she found out she couldn't bully him with the OP anymore.

5. Bullying nature: she would intimidate, thump, and if all else failed, use the OP against people.

 

She was the anti-Moiraine in a lot of ways.

 

But, since breaking her barrier, she's changed a lot, and almost everything above has been addressed. Most important I think was Lan's POV where he explained why he loved her.