Aviendha's new talent

[icspots]

Geez, I point some stuff out and there are two more pages of everyone arguing against one person..... or one person arguing against everyone else rather.... before I can get back.

 

Bob, like someone said you're welcome to not believe the bowl caused the "strangeness", however given the evidence (Elayne's experience in comparison to Dashiva/Rand's experience, presence of the strangeness prior to the unraveled gateway, lack of any "strangeness" on the Andor side of the gateway, Saidar not being able to affect Saidin, and of course the Author's words on the subject) I at least believe it's pretty obvious.

 

There are several reasons why no one really noticed problems with Saidar after the bowl was used (aside from the flickering/sparking in the air). First off they were all exhausted. Second they were startled/scared because they thought they were being attacked by Shadowspawn. Third they realized the Seanchan were on their way and wanted to make sure they didn't end up with pretty new necklaces. Elayne's comment about being tired is her justifying to herself why she's having trouble forming a weave. She does note that this is far far worse than any other time she's channeled tired.

 

Also you've made several references to the BoW as an angreal. Like a couple of people have pointed out it's a Ter'angreal, not an angreal. Angreal increase the amount of the OP a channeler can channel while buffering them against the extra power (except those that are flawed, like Callandor). Sa'angreal (The Choedan Kal, Callandor, rod in the WT, etc) increase the amount that can be channeled as much over Angreal alone, as Angreal do over channeling without aid. Ter'angreal on the other hand use the power for a specific purpose.

 

The Choedan Kal were never tested, and no one knew whether or not they could stand up to the strain of actually being used. Apparently the workmanship on the male one was a little better than that of the female one since that one broke. Or perhaps the reason it broke was something to do with Nynaeve. Either way they did what they were supposed to do.... they weren't over-used. The reason that there was no strangeness around Shadar Logoth after the cleansing is because the Choedan Kal were doing exactly what they were supposed to do.... allow a channeler (or group of channelers if more than one access key is used) to draw ungodly amounts of the one power.

 

Again, I'm not saying that the Ebou Dar "strangeness" was caused by large amounts of Saidar being channeled into the BoW. It was caused by the bowl being used on such a large scale where it was designed to work on small areas only... I refer again to my bike pump filling a hot air balloon metaphor. Moridin clearly states that in the AoL all weather was carefully regulated with the use of Ter'angreal, and because of that AoL channelers did not have the ability in controlling the weather that present day channelers (i.e.- Windfinders) possess. I think it's mentioned somewhere (or maybe I'm making it up) that the bowl, along with other Ter'angreals, worked off of the standing flows mentioned by Alviarin (as told by Mesaana)

 

Also, Bob, the comparison to the redstone doorway Ter'angreal on the docks in Cairhien melting to the broken Sa'angreal isn't really that great as you're once again comparing Ter'angreal to Angreal. We don't know for sure why that doorway melted. Possibly because of: two people going through at the same time, Lanfear going through a second time, people/two people channeling while going through (we know at least one person can since Rand walked through the Tear doorway while channeling a flaming sword). It's just up in the air

 

Thanks to those of you that liked my initial post, and also to those of you defending what I'm saying. Let the public whipping begin!

[Luckers]

Can i sacrifice things to you? I'm totally in if theres death involved.

 

Your case is a strong one, and very possibly what the author intended. But, it's really, really sloppy authorship.

 

Well at least we finally have a universal judge of what is good writing. I'm ever so relieved.

[icspots]

"Alert alert!" :klaxon blaring: "Sarcasm overload, repeat sarcasm overload!"

[Trib4l]

Man, Luckers, you are on point today!

 

There's no "sloppy authorship" here. The text evidence was there, referenced several times. Enough so that a casual reader could pick it up.

 

A simple timeline would show that the strangeness was experienced before the gateway exploded. Also, the gateway didn't touch saidin at all, whereas the BoW defintely did - in fact the girls inner-monologued about it and were freaking about the fact that the BoW was drawing on saidin.

 

Whether you want to believe it or not is up to you, but at this point I think you are putting up a straw man argument rather than just accepting what's in plain view.

 

It's ok to be wrong - I have been plenty of times on these forums. Hell, I'm the one that misread the end of KoD and suggested that Rand was in Mat's camp before he sent Tuon back. I sped through and thought that Noal reaching for his dagger referenced as "with his one hand reaching to his side" and immediately thought, "Hey, Rand only has one hand! Whee! He's already met Tuon, YAY!". Right up until somebody (probably Luckers) pointed out my mistake.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Just for clarification -

 

*angreal is shorthand for all angreal - Ter, Sa, and plain. It's a computerism for "zero or more letters followed by."

 

Forcing the Bowl to do more than it was built to accomplish is no different from forcing the Choeden Kal to do more than it was built to accomplish. Given the scope of the two workings, rather less in fact. Both result in severe disturbances in the OP. The CK melts from the overstress. The Bowl does not. So, which one used the most Power?

 

Given that the CK was designed to handle umpteen times the Power that the Bowl was designed for, or could have survived, which working should have caused the greatest and most unpredictable side effects? Which one did?

 

That's both illogical and inconsistent writing.

[racha_giurgiu]

Though it is repeated through the series that *angreal have different chracterisitics and handle to power in different ways, if at all. So each *angreal's different properties could and will cause different reactions to any amount of Power being handled through it. because much of the research regarding these objects have been lost we oly know that most of them are not even necessarily being used for the purposes originally created for so with our limited knowledge we can not form assumption on how each *angreal SHOULD react. We don't know.

[racha_giurgiu]

Though it is repeated through the series that *angreal have different chracterisitics and handle to power in different ways, if at all. So each *angreal's different properties could and will cause different reactions to any amount of Power being handled through it. because much of the research regarding these objects have been lost we oly know that most of them are not even necessarily being used for the purposes originally created for so with our limited knowledge we can not form assumption on how each *angreal SHOULD react. We don't know, the knowledge is either buried or completely lost.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Bowl of the Winds was definitely designed to work weather, so it was being used for its designed purpose. The issue seems to be the scope of the working. Worldwide rather than areawide.

 

The CK, on the other hand, was a general purpose tool being used to cleanse all the saidin in the entire universe.

 

In terms of scope, which seems like the greatest excess to you? Worldwide? Universewide?

 

Which seems like the most abusive? A weatherworking tool being used to work weather, or draining a whole universe full of sewage through your kitchen sink? Which would most likely result in disaster?

 

This seems to be a case where I gave Jordan more credit for being logical and consistent than he deserved. I apologize for that.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Frankly Bob, all I ever see you do is whine and moan about "logical inconsistancies" and "how this really should be written" as if you know better than the author himself. If all you are going to do is basically bash the series every chance you get, why should we take anything you say seriously? All it ever really amounts to in the end is trolling.

[rochaid]

i will repeat what has been said many times in this "conversation," the choedan kal were made to handle the vast amounts of the power needed to cleanse saidin,so it makes perfect sense that they were not over-stressed.and you seem to have over-looked my explanation of the choedan kal melting event.

 

ter'angreal have completely different properties than angreal,this is shown throughout the series.so comparison is not valid.

 

it amuses me to see you still do not admit you (bob t) are wrong in front of all the evidence,do not blame the author for your mistake,for thats what it was,a mistake,we've all made them,and we don't blame the author,so why should you?veryone else seems to have picked up on the fact that it was the bowl,you seem to have missed it,but do not blame the author for it.

 

(and you can hardly use the anology of a kitchen sink to the cleansing of saidin)

[Trib4l]

Let's look at it like this:

 

The CK simply amplify a users ability to channel. It does nothing actively with the power.

 

The BoW creates what must be a lingering weave that affects the weather. We see in the text that different channelers see remnants of the weave in the sky after they are done with the BoW.

 

Since the CK, like all angreal and sa'angreal, doesn't create a lingering weave it would stand to reason that it would not leave a "residue" like the BoW.

 

I work with video, computers, lighting, and sound. We have terms like active and passive that define how some of our hardware works. I would liken ter'angreal to "active" devices, and angreal/sa'angreal to "passive" devices. Since active devices "do" something with the signal they receive, and passive devices just "pass" the signal along without necessarily affecting it.

 

The BoW as we see it does something actively with the weave they lay onto the markings. They don't create the sky weave, they only channeled into the bowl. Elayne's POV makes that very clear. The BoW fires the OP into the sky and laces out across the horizon.

 

It's safe to say they function quite differently. Apples and oranges are not the same, no matter how many times you say they are.

[icspots]

The Bowl of the Winds was definitely designed to work weather, so it was being used for its designed purpose. The issue seems to be the scope of the working. Worldwide rather than areawide.

 

The CK, on the other hand, was a general purpose tool being used to cleanse all the saidin in the entire universe.

 

In terms of scope, which seems like the greatest excess to you? Worldwide? Universewide?

 

Which seems like the most abusive? A weatherworking tool being used to work weather, or draining a whole universe full of sewage through your kitchen sink? Which would most likely result in disaster?

 

This seems to be a case where I gave Jordan more credit for being logical and consistent than he deserved. I apologize for that.

 

We're starting to agree..... sort of.

 

We agree that the BoW was made to effect change in the weather on a local scale, and that it was used are a far grander scale than it was designed. This stressing past it's limits caused the problem.

 

I don't agree however with the kitchen sink metaphor, so I'll pose another of my own. It's possible to move a desert grain by grain given enough time. It's much easier to move a desert with the use of heavy equipment (dump trucks, bull dozers, etc). In the case of the cleansing the Choedan Kal played the part of the heavy equipment, and allowed Rand to move the "grains of sand" more efficiently. I suppose theoretically it would have been possible to cleanse Saidin using a regular angreal, a full circle, or unaided completely, however it would've been like moving that sand grain by grain.... mostly useless labor. Perhaps if they started doing that right after the breaking, then they might be done in present times. Though I imagine even using a full circle (men/women) all of the channelers would've died of exhaustion long before they pushed all of the taint out. Plus there's that pesky problem of all of the male channelers going mad while they're trying to cleanse Saidin over multiple years.

 

The Choedan Kal weren't used to filter out the taint, rather they allowed Rand/Nynaeve to draw large amounts of Saidin/Saidar. The filtering of the taint was a function completely of the weaves Rand made, not of the Choedan Kal themselves. The CK simply allowed Rand to draw enough of the OP to clean them.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Let me deal with Trib4l, first.

 

The active/passive device analogy is a good one. However, whether a device is active or passive, if it flows enough power that it melts, BAD THINGS HAPPEN. At least in the real world.

 

The device might simply stop working. It might cause any number of unknown and unwanted side effects first. It might smolder and start to burn, or even explode. Sometimes it will even do all of those things. The CK, supposedly does none of them, except melt. Very strange, but believable in a fantasy context.

 

icspots -

 

The Bowl is supposedly a device which must first be activated by the Power and then programmed to perform a given weather-related task. Once it has its instructions it then draws additional power, on its own, sufficient to accomplish the task.

 

This is, from all appearances, exactly what the Bowl did. In the process, it suffered no noticable ill-effects. Once the weather working is over, it reverts to being a clear crystal bowl. Cloudscapes have been replaced by stormy seascapes.

 

Given that there were supposed to have been many such similar devices during the AoL, many if not all of which would have been working at once, how is it that the Bowl had no safeguards against possibly interfering with the others? How was it even able to work on a grander scale than that for which it had been designed? No competent engineer would have designed such a device. Relying on the unfailing attention to detail of an operator to prevent the kinds of catastrophe that such mutual interference by such devices attempting to work in overlapping areas could cause, would have been on the order of criminal negligence by the designer and engineer.

 

Supposedly the Bowl had no such safeguards. Supposedly it drew too much power. Supposedly it did so without suffering catastrophic effects to itself. Supposedly it drew on that power in such a way that it destabilized both saidin and saidar throughout that area of the world for months afterward. Supposedly all of that happened and the Bowl remains intact and functional, when the CK, flowing infinitely more power, and suffering meltdown in the process caused no aftereffects at all.

 

That's too much to take even for a fantasy.

 

First of all, it's bad science. Secondly it strains my willingness to believe, or at least suspend disbelief too greatly. We have examples of devices failing catastrophically after an inability to stand up to the strains being imposed upon them, both before the Bowl's use and after the Bowl's use. Neither of those failures caused any aftereffects. Both catastophic failures came about as a result of being asked to perform tasks greater than that for which they had been designed. Tasks that their designers could not have anticipated. If you can't anticipate the task, you can't safeguard against the failure. With absolutely no safeguards against failing in the ways that they did, both the doorway, and the CK destroyed themselves without causing any ill-effects. Yet, without failing in any way, the Bowl messed up the whole fabric of the Power????

 

Bah! And, humbug, too.

[Trib4l]

LOL for the humbug!

 

I see your point Bob. I think the female CK access key melted possibly as a result of what Rand was doing with saidar rather than the amount he was drawing. Essentially he was using sadiar as a filter for saidin. Who knows what affect the taint flowing through the power the female CK had, other than we saw the access key melted (at the cleansing).

 

We don't know that the BoW didn't overload. We know that they say it drew more than it should have. The OP became strange there after they used the bowl, so we know there was a side effect. Although the windfinders claimed knowledge, we don't know that it's something that the bowl did ordinarily - perhaps it always did that in the AoL too?

 

In regards to the "bad science" - I can't understand how you can look at fantasy and see "science". RJ is dealing with a non-scientific, fantastical power source that holds no comparison in the real world. Applying our scientific processes is like once again comparing apples and oranges.

 

It's like the quote someone posted from RJ about the DO - he's not human, so we can't understand his motives as "making sense". The OP is something we don't have anything to compare with, and therefor can't understand it in a comparison based relationship, let alone scientifically.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It wasn't just the access key that melted. The actual Choeden Kal has vanished, as well.

 

I'd normally agree with you about not applying any real-world science in the context of a fantasy, except that Jordan has taken the step of attempting to hew to valid science everywhere else throughout the series.

 

As just one example: There are only X number of channelers ( in Randland today ) because the gene that expresses the ability to channel is being bred out of the population. Good science. There are other examples as well. All good science.

 

Then there's the Bowl of Winds. A total anomaly.

 

Why Jordan chose that as the causative factor is beyond me. He had an utterly unique cause at hand. The exploding gateway. Unique cause. Unique effect. Nice symmetry. Scientifically plausible.

 

He chose the Bowl of Winds instead, and we've just got to live with that choice. That doesn't make it either believable or good literature.

[Cybertrolloc]

You mean that the channeling gene isn't being bred into the population ;) Also the Choeden Kal blowing up is dismissed in the text and by RJ (so far as I know) much more than it should: I guess the only explanation is that it blew up when Rand and Ny stopped using it (which isn't horrible since it's a one-off anyway). If it blew up in use, we'd expect Rand, Ny and a big chunk of Andor to go boom as well.

 

Bowl of Winds (BoW) is a ter'angreal used for local weather control in AoL (say portion of a continent) according to Moridin. How they used it in AoL is not discussed, but it's not impossible that what the Seafolk do isn't how it's normally used (procedurally, just not in the scale of what they used it for).

 

I agree with your reasons that the BoW doing something really weird (maybe unprecedented--Aginor was mystified by it) wasn't presented well in what happened when they used it, but I think you're holding RJ to a writing standard above what he writes WoT at in some ways and the amount of mysticism present in the books at world-building level.

[icspots]

Supposedly the Bowl had no such safeguards. Supposedly it drew too much power. Supposedly it did so without suffering catastrophic effects to itself. Supposedly it drew on that power in such a way that it destabilized both saidin and saidar throughout that area of the world for months afterward.

 

I don't have books with me, so can someone find the quote where it says the BoW drew too much power?

 

Bob, I'm not saying that the BoW drawing too much power is what caused the problem. Personally I think it did what it was supposed to do in drawing power. I'm saying that the way the windfinders used the bowl is what caused it. I think the form of the weaves (both the size and design) they used told the bowl to draw more power. it obliged, and provided the appropriate amount that the "instructions" the windfinders gave it told it to. To reiterate it was the BoW being used on a large area that caused the problem, not the amount of power drawn. That's another reason that I'm not comparing the amount of the OP used in the BoW to the CK melting.

 

Many times during the story RJ has emphasized how important technique is (channeling, sword work, spinning wool, etc.). I believe the windfinders had an idea of what the technique was (handed down over 3,000 years without any bowl to practice with), but then they used a battering ram instead of a toothpick when it came to technique.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You may be entirely right. It wouldn't be the first time characters thought they knew more and were more proficient than was really the case.

 

cybertrolloc -

 

Valid criticism. I probably am being harsher than is warranted. I'll excuse myself ( this time ) on the basis that somebody needs to counter the idolatry of Jordan that exists. It's an interesting story. He presents it pretty well. He's not Shakespeare reincarnate.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I always figured the female Choedan Kal melting had more to do with the way that the taint was funneled through saidar than being overstressed from drawing beyond it's capacity. The Choedan Kal were buffered to prevent the user from overdrawing ... I seriously doubt that Nynaeve's capacity for use was greater than the Choedan Kal's capacity for drawing. There never really is an explanation that I've seen, in the books or from Jordan, as to why the female one melted.

 

Either way, the methods and results of use from the two (the Choedan Kal and the Bowl of Winds) are so different that saying one should have reacted the same as the other is unwarranted. All the other textual clues match Jordan's external explanation (about the Bowl, and the "strangeness").

 

In addition, the consistent backlash against you, Bob, is not a symptom of Jordan worship, as much as it is a reaction to your assumption that you know his world not only better than he does, but better than everyone else who has ever read about it. It is directed at your arrogance. I know, because the same kind of backlash is frequently directed at me, and I'm an arrogant piece of work, let me tell you.

[Bob T Dwarf]

But, I'm not arrogant in the least.

 

I'm simply always right.

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

except, of course, when I'm entirely wrong.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Indeed. :D

[Trib4l]

Here here!

 

:lol:

[Luckers]

Why Jordan chose that as the causative factor is beyond me. He had an utterly unique cause at hand. The exploding gateway. Unique cause. Unique effect. Nice symmetry. Scientifically plausible.

 

That is flawed logic. For starters the gateway would never have effected saidin. Secondly the gateway would have effected Andor. Had RJ actually used that there would have been alot more disruption then simply 'oh well, i dont like that it was the bowl, therefore its scientifically implausible'.

 

The Bowl was a device designed for a specific purpose, that was later forced to exceed that purpose. It is not a living entity, capable of mental adaption, and the set part of it that drew upon, and channeled saidin and saidar would have been pushed out of position, therefore the weaves woven would have been forced, strained and out of position. That this would cause a peculiarity in the power is not only feasible, its understandable.

 

I too suspect that the CK melted not because it was over stressed but because of the use to which it was put--we know, for instance, from Akkarin that far more saidin was used then saidar, and yet the male Choedan Kal was fine. In any case though the analogy is not valid. A sa'angreal only allows the drawing of more power, it does not weave its own weaves, or anything else. The use, creation, and purpose of the two are utterly different. It would be like trying to compare a computer and car and draw conclusive deductions simply because they are both technology and both utilize electricity.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, since we don't have the Bowl, and we can't channel, we can't conduct experiments to determine, as empirically as is possible (assuming we're sane), that overstressing the Bowl would cause a "strangeness" (a highly unspecific designation), in the use of the Power (which we cannot use). So, none of us are going to be getting research grants for this any time soon.

 

I think that in the story, the cause for the "strangeness" is the overstressing of the Bowl of Winds. Having read your argument, I still maintain that opinion. Obviously you don't, so <shrug> OK. This isn't affecting my paycheck. You're entitled to your opinion.

[Bob T Dwarf]

In this case, no I'm not. A proof has been presented that Jordan said it was the Bowl. Therefore, it was the Bowl.

 

Point proven. Discussion over.