The Dragon and the Heroes of the Horn

[solarz]

Down the billowing fog' date=' as if it were the side of a mountain, rode shapes on horses. At first the dense mists hid more than that, but slowly they came closer, and it was Rand's turn to gasp. He knew them. Men, not all in armor, and women. Their clothes and their weapons came from every Age, but he knew them all.

 

Rogosh Eagle-eye, a fatherly looking man with white hair and eyes so sharp as to make his name merely a hint. Gaidal Cain, a swarthy man with the hilts of his two swords sticking above his broad shoulders. Golden-haired Birgitte, with her gleaming silver bow and quiver bristling with silver arrows. More. He knew their faces, knew their names. But he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different he did not recognize them as names at all, though he knew they were. Michael instead of Mikel. Patrick instead of Paedrig. Oscar instead of Otarin.

 

He knew the man who rode at their head, too. Tall and hook-nosed, with dark, deep-set eyes, his great sword Justice at his side. Artur Hawkwing.

 

Mat gaped at them as they reined in before him and the others. "Is this... ?

 

Is this all of you?" They were little more than a hundred, Rand saw, and realized that somehow he had known that they would be. Hurin's mouth hung open; his eyes bulged almost out of his head.

 

"It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn." Artur Hawkwing's voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands.

 

"Or a woman," Birgitte said sharply.

 

"Or a woman," Hawkwing agreed. "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand.

 

Rand shook his head, but he would not waste time with denials. "Invaders have come, men who call themselves Seanchan, who use chained Aes Sedai in battle. They must be driven back into the sea. And – and there is a girl. Egwene al'Vere. A novice from the White Tower. The Seanchan have her prisoner. You must help me free her."

 

To his surprise, several of the small host behind Artur Hawkwing chuckled, and Birgitte, testing her bowstring, laughed. "You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin." It had a fond sound, as between old friends.[/quote']

 

This has always been one of my favorite passages in the series. My question is though, if the Dragon only gets spun out (Reborn) at the end of an Age, then how can he be "old friends" with those Heroes of the Horn? Presumably, the last time Rand/LTT saw those guys would have been 3000 years ago, and those guys (and gals) have been up to a lot of adventures since.

 

Do they hang out in TAR or something? (Does the Dragon exist in TAR when he's between incarnations?)

[WhiskyJack]

Down the billowing fog' date=' as if it were the side of a mountain, rode shapes on horses. At first the dense mists hid more than that, but slowly they came closer, and it was Rand's turn to gasp. He knew them. Men, not all in armor, and women. Their clothes and their weapons came from every Age, but he knew them all.

 

Rogosh Eagle-eye, a fatherly looking man with white hair and eyes so sharp as to make his name merely a hint. Gaidal Cain, a swarthy man with the hilts of his two swords sticking above his broad shoulders. Golden-haired Birgitte, with her gleaming silver bow and quiver bristling with silver arrows. More. He knew their faces, knew their names. But he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different he did not recognize them as names at all, though he knew they were. Michael instead of Mikel. Patrick instead of Paedrig. Oscar instead of Otarin.

 

He knew the man who rode at their head, too. Tall and hook-nosed, with dark, deep-set eyes, his great sword Justice at his side. Artur Hawkwing.

 

Mat gaped at them as they reined in before him and the others. "Is this... ?

 

Is this all of you?" They were little more than a hundred, Rand saw, and realized that somehow he had known that they would be. Hurin's mouth hung open; his eyes bulged almost out of his head.

 

"It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn." Artur Hawkwing's voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands.

 

"Or a woman," Birgitte said sharply.

 

"Or a woman," Hawkwing agreed. "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand.

 

Rand shook his head, but he would not waste time with denials. "Invaders have come, men who call themselves Seanchan, who use chained Aes Sedai in battle. They must be driven back into the sea. And – and there is a girl. Egwene al'Vere. A novice from the White Tower. The Seanchan have her prisoner. You must help me free her."

 

To his surprise, several of the small host behind Artur Hawkwing chuckled, and Birgitte, testing her bowstring, laughed. "You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin." It had a fond sound, as between old friends.[/quote']

 

This has always been one of my favorite passages in the series. My question is though, if the Dragon only gets spun out (Reborn) at the end of an Age, then how can he be "old friends" with those Heroes of the Horn? Presumably, the last time Rand/LTT saw those guys would have been 3000 years ago, and those guys (and gals) have been up to a lot of adventures since.

 

Do they hang out in TAR or something? (Does the Dragon exist in TAR when he's between incarnations?)

 

 

1) Last time Dragon saw these people was 22 years ago.

2) Yes on TAR.

[mb]

The soul I take is spun out more than just at the end of each Age. Dragon Reborn Header seems to indicate so.

 

All Heroes live in Telaranrhiod in-between spinnings. Birgitte's Telaranrhiod discussions with Nynaeve tell so.

Though whether or not they hang out with each other seems uncertain to me.

[solarz]

The soul I take is spun out more than just at the end of each Age. Dragon Reborn Header seems to indicate so.

 

All Heroes live in Telaranrhiod in-between spinnings. Birgitte's Telaranrhiod discussions with Nynaeve tell so.

Though whether or not they hang out with each other seems uncertain to me.

 

The Heroes of the Horn are spun out relatively often. The Dragon, on the other hand, only gets spun out at the end of each Age.

 

It wouldn't make much sense even if LTT was hanging around in TAR before being born as Rand. Remember that LTT was crazy when he died. I don't think he would've made a very fun guy to hang out with. Yet the Heroes, such as Artur and Birgitte, seem to regard him as a fond old friend.

[WhiskyJack]

The soul I take is spun out more than just at the end of each Age. Dragon Reborn Header seems to indicate so.

 

All Heroes live in Telaranrhiod in-between spinnings. Birgitte's Telaranrhiod discussions with Nynaeve tell so.

Though whether or not they hang out with each other seems uncertain to me.

 

The Heroes of the Horn are spun out relatively often. The Dragon, on the other hand, only gets spun out at the end of each Age.

 

Not really. In many ages, Dragon is not even born as Dragon.

 

It wouldn't make much sense even if LTT was hanging around in TAR before being born as Rand. Remember that LTT was crazy when he died. I don't think he would've made a very fun guy to hang out with. Yet the Heroes, such as Artur and Birgitte, seem to regard him as a fond old friend.

 

Flesh and blood LTT was insane but before dying, he gained sanity. Besides his "life" has no relevance on his living in TAR. And he is old friend because they have come to know each other for over the period of countless lives.

[OptimusPrime]

Does anyone else think the Heroes are supposed to fight the Dragon if he goes Dark?

[Terez]

No, since RJ said that would cause a rift in the Pattern.

[OptimusPrime]

No, since RJ said that would cause a rift in the Pattern.

 

Exactly. I think if Rand went dark his will would still affect the Pattern. Maybe that rift is what it would take to make an evil Rand into a "mere mortal" again. Dragon is a pretty powerful thing, if the bad guys got hold of it it would be the end unless the Light had a plan B lined up.

[Jimvzyl]

There was speculation that if Rand is only spun out as the Dragon, then prior to him being LTT there must have been more lives, as the Dragon, with more knowledge to draw on from previous confrontations with the DO - to seal him.

 

Rand doesn't have this knowledge as far as we know (he may). Which suggests to me that despite visions of innumerable past lives - he's much like Birgitte in that the older memories of the soul fade. Meaning the Dragon soul would have to have been spun out in between each incarnation of the Dragon- so that he'd have lived enough lives to have forgotten his previous Dragon incarnation before LTT (this is where the adventures with Hawkwing and the other Heroes takes place).

 

Rand therefore could have been spun out many times before LTT, but not as the Dragon, and the previous Dragon incarnation before LTT could have been as many as 21 000 years before Rand (assuming that each age is of relatively similar length - 3000 years)

Do we know for certain that the Dragon is spun out at the end of each age? Or does TG happen only once every 7 ages? (7 spokes of the wheel)

 

 

In any case, I'd say its safe to assume that the Pattern makes use of the Dragon soul for many more purposes than defeating the Dark One at TG. You may find that Rand himself is an oddity as the Pattern may usually only require 1 Dragon per 7 ages of the Wheel and not 2 within 3000 years. LTT may have bungled it up so badly with an inferior seal and the tainting of saidin, that Rand was needed to fix it. If LTT's solution had been more effective, Rand could have been spun out in his current life for other necessary purposes the Wheel requires.

[Agitel]

Rand therefore could have been spun out many times before LTT, but not as the Dragon, and the previous Dragon incarnation before LTT could have been as many as 21 000 years before Rand (assuming that each age is of relatively similar length - 3000 years)

Do we know for certain that the Dragon is spun out at the end of each age? Or does TG happen only once every 7 ages? (7 spokes of the wheel)

 

RJ has said that the Ages aren't all the same length, and I think (but am not sure) that even the same Age can vary in length on each turning. Also, Tarmon Gaidon only comes once every full turning, and there's no reason why Rand would be spun out at the end of every Age, or even necessarily every turning if the Wheel felt that a different Hero would work better. And Rand is spun out to live normal lives as well, though the last 3000 years have been a bit of an exception given the whole Last Battle/end times thing going on and the needs of prophecy and what not.

[ElAguila]

If you remember early on when Rand first tried to use a portal stone with Verin and Matt and the others, he saw many times where he fought the dark one or his minions. And in those other lives it mentioned, he was never mentioned as being the dragon reborn but was still called LTT by the dark one.

[Terez]

All of those lives were in the current Age.

 

I think Rand is probably spun out less often than Birgitte because he can channel, and therefore his lifespan is much longer. Not sure if it would be different in Ages where the Power can't be sensed or used.

[Erunion]

The theory that I espouse on the whole Dragon-soul thing is this - the Rand/LTT soul is the one that the pattern spins out when it needs a male channeler to stop the Dark One and save the World (Ameresu being the female (channeler ? ) who the pattern spins out to save the world when necessary). However, in all those ages where a Male Channeler is not needed to save the world, Rand/LTT is just another one of the Heroes of the Horn. One of the more powerful ones, perhaps, but just another Hero. It is only in certain situations where he rises above and is 'The Dragon' who is supposed to save everybody.