Ranking the Best Fighters -- My thoughts (TOM spoilers!)

[NitroS]

There was another thread about this last week look at it for direct quotes but brandon and robert jordan confirmed that it goes Lan, Rand, Galad, Gawyn and gawyn being more lucky in his recent fights. Also Lan is considered to be extremely lucky to in new spring.

[Entreri]

There was another thread about this last week look at it for direct quotes but brandon and robert jordan confirmed that it goes Lan, Rand, Galad, Gawyn and gawyn being more lucky in his recent fights. Also Lan is considered to be extremely lucky to in new spring.

 

There was only a "hair" difference between Ryne and Lan according to Moraine. Certainly not extremely lucky, Lan proved he had the mental edge (never surrendering). That was young Lan, the seasoned veteran would spank Ryne in under a minute.

 

Same with Galad, he was not extremely lucky either, although Valda was better by a wider margin.

 

 

If I were to fight waves of people in front of me, it would Rand/LTT version of book13, unstoppable juggernaut, described as being "an army of channelers". Mat or Lan can't hold a candle to that.

 

Purely non OP, it would be Mat, his knowledge of strategies is just too extensive, he can out general anyone with ease.

[solarz]

Just a few thoughts, some of them a reiteration of my original post:

 

1) 1-handed Rand might be at a disadvantage using a real sword because he will have less power in his swings. However, a Sword of Fire doesn't care about physical strength.

 

2) Don't underestimate Perrin. He's one of the most bad-ass fighters around. He shrugs off wounds that would debilitate other men, like an arrow through the thigh. He doesn't even notice it until after the fight! That's the classic definition of a Berserker. He was hard-pressed by Aram because he didn't want to fight a friend. Perrin is also extremely strong. His hammer blow lifted that Brotherless -- a huge Aielman -- off his feet.

 

Read the descriptions of Perrin fighting against both Aiel and Trollocs, and then read the descriptions of Gawyn fighting Aiel and Galaad fighting Trollocs: it's pretty clear who is the more bad-ass there. Perrin is not a duelist, he's a one-man army.

 

3) We really don't get enough information on notable Aiel fighters in order to rank them. Rhuarc is repeatedly compared to Lan, but we never see him fight. He is of an age with Lan, about 50, but he doesn't have the Warder Bond to offset his age. Gaul was captured and his companion killed, by a group of Hunters of the Horn and their men-at-arms. Couladin might have missed Mat's heart by an inch, but in a duel to the death, an inch is the difference between Life and Death.

 

4) Mat has memories yes, but those are memories of battles: strategies and tactics, not personal combat. Mat's combat prowess is mostly from his own abilities.

[Sid]

4) Mat has memories yes, but those are memories of battles: strategies and tactics, not personal combat. Mat's combat prowess is mostly from his own abilities.

Escaping from Rhuidean

Mat used his spear like a quarterstaff, a spinning blur, but bringing the sword into it as if he had always used the weapon.

TSR ch 26 'The Dedicated'

 

It seems it's a mix of his own abilities and things remembered. He instinctively knew how to use his ashandarei the very hour he received it.

[solarz]

Escaping from Rhuidean

Mat used his spear like a quarterstaff, a spinning blur, but bringing the sword into it as if he had always used the weapon.

TSR ch 26 'The Dedicated'

 

It seems it's a mix of his own abilities and things remembered. He instinctively knew how to use his ashandarei the very hour he received it.

 

Mat did a lot of things that he shouldn't be able to do, even before Rhuidean. Like speaking the Old Tongue, or beating up two trained swordsmen while barely able to stand on his feet.

 

It's unlikely that his given memories taught him how to use the ashandarei, as we have seen no indication that such a weapon was used in his memories. His familiarity with it could just as easily be attributed to his "Old Blood".

 

Perhaps it was no coincidence that Mat was given the ashandarei. The 'finns probably knew Mat's past lives, and knew what his favored weapon was. (After all, a key can take any form... why the ashandarei, specifically?)

[Lord_Mat]

I'd like to point out that Mat didn't have his memories when he fought against Galad and Gawyn. Also isn't the ashandarei basically a quarterstaff with a blade on one end? If so mat wouldn't need to change his fighting style that much to use it.

[Sid]

Mat did a lot of things that he shouldn't be able to do, even before Rhuidean. Like speaking the Old Tongue, or beating up two trained swordsmen while barely able to stand on his feet.

I'll grant you that speaking the Old Tongue is something he shouldn't have been able to do, but beating Galad and Gawyn was entirely possible given his level of competence with a staff, their overconfidence, his desperation, and that they were using wooden practice swords rather than real swords.

 

It's unlikely that his given memories taught him how to use the ashandarei, as we have seen no indication that such a weapon was used in his memories. His familiarity with it could just as easily be attributed to his "Old Blood".

I don't get what your logic is here. Didn't Birgitte know what it was called because she was alive back in the times people used them? (during the era that he got his memories from) He came through the doorway, was suddenly completely fluent in the Old Tongue, and could use a weapon he'd never seen before as if he'd trained with it for a long time. Sure, it's close to a quarterstaff, but it would take a lot of getting used to the difference if it suddenly had a sword at one end.

 

Perhaps it was no coincidence that Mat was given the ashandarei. The 'finns probably knew Mat's past lives, and knew what his favored weapon was. (After all, a key can take any form... why the ashandarei, specifically?)

I doubt the Eelfinn were out to do Mat any favors. They did hang him, after all. He is awfully lucky, though.

[Suttree]

He came through the doorway, was suddenly completely fluent in the Old Tongue, and could use a weapon he'd never seen before as if he'd trained with it for a long time. Sure, it's close to a quarterstaff, but it would take a lot of getting used to the difference if it suddenly had a sword at one end.

 

I think it's most likely a combination of the memories(all those battles in his head there have to have been a few men that used the ashandarei) but what makes it possible was his previous skills with a quarterstaff. Remember Mat's da was said to have one the competition at Bel Tine many times.

[solarz]

I'll grant you that speaking the Old Tongue is something he shouldn't have been able to do, but beating Galad and Gawyn was entirely possible given his level of competence with a staff, their overconfidence, his desperation, and that they were using wooden practice swords rather than real swords.

 

How many ordinary farmboys do you know can defeat two trained swordsmen? The fact that they're using wooden practice swords is irrelevant because thy never even managed to hit Mat once.

 

I don't get what your logic is here. Didn't Birgitte know what it was called because she was alive back in the times people used them? (during the era that he got his memories from) He came through the doorway, was suddenly completely fluent in the Old Tongue, and could use a weapon he'd never seen before as if he'd trained with it for a long time. Sure, it's close to a quarterstaff, but it would take a lot of getting used to the difference if it suddenly had a sword at one end.

 

I doubt the Eelfinn were out to do Mat any favors. They did hang him, after all. He is awfully lucky, though.

 

I didn't say the Ashandarei didn't exist in the past, simply that there is no indication Mat learned how to use it from his "stolen" memories.

 

Remember that Mat spoke the Old Tongue even before Rhuidean: the gateway in Tear, for example. I believe the Ashandarei is linked to Mat much like how the bow is linked to Birgitte.

 

Also note that while the A/Eelfinn weren't doing Mat any favors, they were definitely pushing him toward a goal. One group even told him to go find the other group (go to Rhuidean)! Hanging him was the price they exacted, for reasons unknown to us.

[Suttree]

How many ordinary farmboys do you know can defeat two trained swordsmen? The fact that they're using wooden practice swords is irrelevant because thy never even managed to hit Mat once.

 

I wouldn't say he is ordinary...The Two Rivers men have shown when mixed with other nations armies to be word class with the long bow, quarterstaff, and in tracking skills. Combine that with the story of how Jearom's only lose came to a farmer with a quarterstaff and you have your answer.

[Sid]

 

I didn't say the Ashandarei didn't exist in the past, simply that there is no indication Mat learned how to use it from his "stolen" memories.

 

How else would he have learned how to use it? The Old Blood? Please.

[solarz]

How else would he have learned how to use it? The Old Blood? Please.

 

Yeah, that would be almost as unlikely as knowing how to speak a language you've never even heard of.

[Sid]

It seems this argument has become pointless. There's no way to absolutely prove either way, no matter that it appears to me to be fairly obviously implied. Believe whatever the hell you want to.

[solarz]

It seems this argument has become pointless. There's no way to absolutely prove either way, no matter that it appears to me to be fairly obviously implied. Believe whatever the hell you want to.

 

I agree, but I find it strange that you so readily dismiss the possibility of Mat being skilled with the Ashandarei from his Old Blood, when it's clear that this Old Blood allows him to speak a language he never learned.

[Manscher]

Doesn't Mat himself state that the old memories helped him with transferring his skill with the quarterstaff over to the Ashandarei? Lend out my copy of TSR to a friend, so I can't really look it up right now.

[Sid]

I had TSR handy, and after Manscher's comment I figured I'd try to find the reason I was so adamant about that. I felt like my memory had some holes of its own.

 

Now there was something in between, filling all those holes. Waking dreams, or something very like. It was as if he could remember dances and battles and streets and cities, none of which he had ever really seen, none of which he was sure had ever existed, like a hundred pieces of memory from a hundred different men. Better to think of them as dreams, maybe--a little better--yet ye was as sure in them as in any of his own remembrances.

 

Mat was vaguely aware of Rand with that fiery sword suddenly in hand, but then as he was sucked into the maelstrom himself, wielding his spear as spear and quarterstaff both, slash and thrust, haft whirling. For once he was glad of those dream memories; the way of this weapon seemed familiar, and he needed every scrap of skill he could find. It was all chaotic madness.

TSR ch 37 'Imre Stand'

[Kahsm]

When Mat fights Gawyn and Galad WAY back at the start of the series, Lan scolded them for underestimating a farmer. Lan's comment suggests what Mat did was not surprising to him at all, meaning there are other farmers, potentially lots, who fight as well with a q-staff.

 

You mean Hammar not Lan right?

 

 

Also, I take Mat for any situation period. He has 100 times the knowledge, memories and most importantly, the actual experience of different situations of everyone you listed combined.

 

It doesn't matter if Mat is fighting solo or in a group. There is not another person even remotely close to his experience or knowledge in either.

 

His memories are quite varied, from being lowly pikemen holding a line to being actual Generals. He's seen every facet of battle from every possible angle and "job" many, many times over.

 

We've seen no evidence that it translates into some godly skill. just that it makes him know how to fight where otherwise he wouldn't, since he NEVER trained himself (beyond that typical farmer qstaff stuff). We do see evidence of Gawyn kicking top-ranked ass in both BM Gaidin and Bloodknives. And now he's just been bonded, so instantly crank him up a few more notches. Pretty sure no one even factors that in yet.

[Entreri]

Gawyn is great and all, but a pussy cat compared to the likes of Lan and Rand. Land and Rand are lions.

 

Avienhda on Lan: "His face seemed hacked from stone, and his gaze weighed the threat in every servant who passed, examined every crossing corridor and wall niche for hidden attackers. Readiness radiated from him, a lion on the brink of his charge. Avienhda had grown up around dangerous men, but never one to match Ana'allein. Had death been a man, she would have been him".

 

Gawyn is mentally weak and there is no indication that he has become much stronger mentally. So even if he used the ter'angreal and then became Lan's equal, he would still lose.

 

In the real world, 90% of fighting is all mental (some would say it is all mental) and it seems to apply in this fictional world (Lan vs. Ryne, Rand vs. High Lord, Galad vs. Valda and Rand toying with Toram nearly gets himself killed).

[Zhipp]

Gawyn is great and all, but a pussy cat compared to the likes of Lan and Rand. Land and Rand are lions.

 

Avienhda on Lan: "His face seemed hacked from stone, and his gaze weighed the threat in every servant who passed, examined every crossing corridor and wall niche for hidden attackers. Readiness radiated from him, a lion on the brink of his charge. Avienhda had grown up around dangerous men, but never one to match Ana'allein. Had death been a man, she would have been him".

 

Gawyn is mentally weak and there is no indication that he has become much stronger mentally. So even if he used the ter'angreal and then became Lan's equal, he would still lose.

 

In the real world, 90% of fighting is all mental (some would say it is all mental) and it seems to apply in this fictional world (Lan vs. Ryne, Rand vs. High Lord, Galad vs. Valda and Rand toying with Toram nearly gets himself killed).

Rand? Rand without channeling wouldn't stand a chance against Gawyn, IMO.

[capuga]

Gawyn is great and all, but a pussy cat compared to the likes of Lan and Rand. Land and Rand are lions.

 

Avienhda on Lan: "His face seemed hacked from stone, and his gaze weighed the threat in every servant who passed, examined every crossing corridor and wall niche for hidden attackers. Readiness radiated from him, a lion on the brink of his charge. Avienhda had grown up around dangerous men, but never one to match Ana'allein. Had death been a man, she would have been him".

 

Gawyn is mentally weak and there is no indication that he has become much stronger mentally. So even if he used the ter'angreal and then became Lan's equal, he would still lose.

 

In the real world, 90% of fighting is all mental (some would say it is all mental) and it seems to apply in this fictional world (Lan vs. Ryne, Rand vs. High Lord, Galad vs. Valda and Rand toying with Toram nearly gets himself killed).

Rand? Rand without channeling wouldn't stand a chance against Gawyn, IMO.

 

RJ would disagree with you. He said Rand was the 2nd best blademaster after Lan. Brandon even said Galad was better. Opinions aren't necessary when we have word of God.

[Kahsm]

Gawyn is great and all, but a pussy cat compared to the likes of Lan and Rand. Land and Rand are lions.

 

Avienhda on Lan: "His face seemed hacked from stone, and his gaze weighed the threat in every servant who passed, examined every crossing corridor and wall niche for hidden attackers. Readiness radiated from him, a lion on the brink of his charge. Avienhda had grown up around dangerous men, but never one to match Ana'allein. Had death been a man, she would have been him".

 

Gawyn is mentally weak and there is no indication that he has become much stronger mentally. So even if he used the ter'angreal and then became Lan's equal, he would still lose.

 

In the real world, 90% of fighting is all mental (some would say it is all mental) and it seems to apply in this fictional world (Lan vs. Ryne, Rand vs. High Lord, Galad vs. Valda and Rand toying with Toram nearly gets himself killed).

Rand? Rand without channeling wouldn't stand a chance against Gawyn, IMO.

 

RJ would disagree with you. He said Rand was the 2nd best blademaster after Lan. Brandon even said Galad was better. Opinions aren't necessary when we have word of God.

 

That was before Gawyn was bonded.

[capuga]

Gawyn is great and all, but a pussy cat compared to the likes of Lan and Rand. Land and Rand are lions.

 

Avienhda on Lan: "His face seemed hacked from stone, and his gaze weighed the threat in every servant who passed, examined every crossing corridor and wall niche for hidden attackers. Readiness radiated from him, a lion on the brink of his charge. Avienhda had grown up around dangerous men, but never one to match Ana'allein. Had death been a man, she would have been him".

 

Gawyn is mentally weak and there is no indication that he has become much stronger mentally. So even if he used the ter'angreal and then became Lan's equal, he would still lose.

 

In the real world, 90% of fighting is all mental (some would say it is all mental) and it seems to apply in this fictional world (Lan vs. Ryne, Rand vs. High Lord, Galad vs. Valda and Rand toying with Toram nearly gets himself killed).

Rand? Rand without channeling wouldn't stand a chance against Gawyn, IMO.

 

RJ would disagree with you. He said Rand was the 2nd best blademaster after Lan. Brandon even said Galad was better. Opinions aren't necessary when we have word of God.

 

That was before Gawyn was bonded.

 

That's unclear. Brandon's answer was post-ToM but he didn't clarify if it was pre or post-bonded Gawyn. In relation to Rand, Rand is also bonded so Gawyn doesn't have any advantage there. So RJ's statement about Rand being 2nd best behind Lan is still valid. That's Rand with 2 hands of course. A sword fight between Rand and Gawyn at this point is obviously a mis-match in Gawyn's favor since Rand hasn't relearned the forms with one hand, and likely wouldn't be as good one handed anyway.

[Kahsm]

Gawyn is great and all, but a pussy cat compared to the likes of Lan and Rand. Land and Rand are lions.

 

Avienhda on Lan: "His face seemed hacked from stone, and his gaze weighed the threat in every servant who passed, examined every crossing corridor and wall niche for hidden attackers. Readiness radiated from him, a lion on the brink of his charge. Avienhda had grown up around dangerous men, but never one to match Ana'allein. Had death been a man, she would have been him".

 

Gawyn is mentally weak and there is no indication that he has become much stronger mentally. So even if he used the ter'angreal and then became Lan's equal, he would still lose.

 

In the real world, 90% of fighting is all mental (some would say it is all mental) and it seems to apply in this fictional world (Lan vs. Ryne, Rand vs. High Lord, Galad vs. Valda and Rand toying with Toram nearly gets himself killed).

Rand? Rand without channeling wouldn't stand a chance against Gawyn, IMO.

 

RJ would disagree with you. He said Rand was the 2nd best blademaster after Lan. Brandon even said Galad was better. Opinions aren't necessary when we have word of God.

 

That was before Gawyn was bonded.

 

That's unclear. Brandon's answer was post-ToM but he didn't clarify if it was pre or post-bonded Gawyn. In relation to Rand, Rand is also bonded so Gawyn doesn't have any advantage there. So RJ's statement about Rand being 2nd best behind Lan is still valid. That's Rand with 2 hands of course. A sword fight between Rand and Gawyn at this point is obviously a mis-match in Gawyn's favor since Rand hasn't relearned the forms with one hand, and likely wouldn't be as good one handed anyway.

 

That's not true at all. Gawyn might not have an advantage over Rand by being bonded, but Rand and Lan lose theirs.

[capuga]

Gawyn is great and all, but a pussy cat compared to the likes of Lan and Rand. Land and Rand are lions.

 

Avienhda on Lan: "His face seemed hacked from stone, and his gaze weighed the threat in every servant who passed, examined every crossing corridor and wall niche for hidden attackers. Readiness radiated from him, a lion on the brink of his charge. Avienhda had grown up around dangerous men, but never one to match Ana'allein. Had death been a man, she would have been him".

 

Gawyn is mentally weak and there is no indication that he has become much stronger mentally. So even if he used the ter'angreal and then became Lan's equal, he would still lose.

 

In the real world, 90% of fighting is all mental (some would say it is all mental) and it seems to apply in this fictional world (Lan vs. Ryne, Rand vs. High Lord, Galad vs. Valda and Rand toying with Toram nearly gets himself killed).

Rand? Rand without channeling wouldn't stand a chance against Gawyn, IMO.

 

RJ would disagree with you. He said Rand was the 2nd best blademaster after Lan. Brandon even said Galad was better. Opinions aren't necessary when we have word of God.

 

That was before Gawyn was bonded.

 

That's unclear. Brandon's answer was post-ToM but he didn't clarify if it was pre or post-bonded Gawyn. In relation to Rand, Rand is also bonded so Gawyn doesn't have any advantage there. So RJ's statement about Rand being 2nd best behind Lan is still valid. That's Rand with 2 hands of course. A sword fight between Rand and Gawyn at this point is obviously a mis-match in Gawyn's favor since Rand hasn't relearned the forms with one hand, and likely wouldn't be as good one handed anyway.

 

That's not true at all. Gawyn might not have an advantage over Rand by being bonded, but Rand and Lan lose theirs.

 

There's still no reason to doubt RJ's ranking of them as #1 and #2. That's apparently how he intended it to be.

[thehoovedone1]

A mernory of light spoilers

 

Hi guys

 

I jsut made an account but thougth would add my two bobs

 

1) people are forgeting Demandred he kills gawyn, beats galad and gives Lan a run for his money. He has got to be in the top three if not #2

 

2) Lan is #1 due to his self control and the fact that he does not care if he dies (Mat is good obviusly but he would not have the discipline to "sheath the sword" to win)

 

3) My list goes

#1 Lan

#2 Demandred

#3 Mat (Is hard to place against Denanderd as they are obviusly 2 and 3 but they never fight it out)

#4 galad(In my opinion this is were it gets Hard)

#5 Rhuarc

 

4) you must also consider the area and situation in which they are fighting agianst multiple foes mat has the advantage of a staff (both ends) or in Tel'aran'rhiod perin is obviusly top dog followed by slayer.

 

thankyou for reading