Rand and Egwene at the FOM

[randsc]

Plus the farmers. There are going to be a lot more than the 5,000 there are now, and they weren't drawn there to fight for the Amyrlin.

[Barid Bel Medar]

1. Egwene was under ta'veren influence. This is NOT bowing to Rand's will. This is doing what the pattern requires of her. In this case, going and trying to stop Rand. (more on that later) It is abundantly clear. The dizzyness says it all. In fact, Perrin mentions it outright when Galad finally agrees to fight under Perrin, he needs to sit down from dizzyness. Perrin says something on the lines of "thats ta'veren for you". Anyone who thinks she somehow side-stepped everything the pattern wanted is not thinking. Not even Rand can do this.

 

2. As I mentioned earlier, dont fault Egwene for her opposition. Rand wanted her to. He intentionally left out any plans he does or does not have for breaking the seals. Basically, ta'veren or no, he manipulated her handily. All to get the gathering at the FoM. Once he actually sits down and talks, I think we will find that Egwene is not so irrational. She is a bit of a fool for not looking into the matter of the seals, and blindly opposing him, but technically, if she did, and found out he was right, she wouldnt insist on the FoM, thus, the pattern's will would not be done. So really, for plot's sake, she needs to remain blind in her ignorance. Not her fault.

 

3. The seals DO need to be broken. There is no doubt about that. Fel's writings. "Lews Therin" says Min is right in tGS. the borderland prophecies in ToM. Many other prophecies/dreams or viewings through the series. Nobody can doubt that the seals need to be broken. Not from the readers PoV. There is no doubt.

 

4. The DO will not be automatically freed once the seals are broken. Things will become worse, yes. But the bore itself is only a small hole still. The bore was wide open 100 years before the War of Power. Breaking the seals wont be as dramatic and devistating as Egwene and others seem to think. It is definitely understandable, nobody but Rand and the Forsaken know a world without the seals. The third agers can only go by what they have seen. The DO is pretty bad as it is now. Freeing him more would definitely seem like a big deal. But it isnt as dangerous as all that. (note. It is still VERY dangerous. I dont doubt that. Rand admits it himself. But it wont be break seals = a week to live)

[MasterAblar]

1. Egwene was under ta'veren influence. This is NOT bowing to Rand's will. This is doing what the pattern requires of her. In this case, going and trying to stop Rand. (more on that later) It is abundantly clear. The dizzyness says it all. In fact, Perrin mentions it outright when Galad finally agrees to fight under Perrin, he needs to sit down from dizzyness. Perrin says something on the lines of "thats ta'veren for you". Anyone who thinks she somehow side-stepped everything the pattern wanted is not thinking. Not even Rand can do this.

 

2. As I mentioned earlier, dont fault Egwene for her opposition. Rand wanted her to. He intentionally left out any plans he does or does not have for breaking the seals. Basically, ta'veren or no, he manipulated her handily. All to get the gathering at the FoM. Once he actually sits down and talks, I think we will find that Egwene is not so irrational. She is a bit of a fool for not looking into the matter of the seals, and blindly opposing him, but technically, if she did, and found out he was right, she wouldnt insist on the FoM, thus, the pattern's will would not be done. So really, for plot's sake, she needs to remain blind in her ignorance. Not her fault.

 

3. The seals DO need to be broken. There is no doubt about that. Fel's writings. "Lews Therin" says Min is right in tGS. the borderland prophecies in ToM. Many other prophecies/dreams or viewings through the series. Nobody can doubt that the seals need to be broken. Not from the readers PoV. There is no doubt.

 

4. The DO will not be automatically freed once the seals are broken. Things will become worse, yes. But the bore itself is only a small hole still. The bore was wide open 100 years before the War of Power. Breaking the seals wont be as dramatic and devistating as Egwene and others seem to think. It is definitely understandable, nobody but Rand and the Forsaken know a world without the seals. The third agers can only go by what they have seen. The DO is pretty bad as it is now. Freeing him more would definitely seem like a big deal. But it isnt as dangerous as all that. (note. It is still VERY dangerous. I dont doubt that. Rand admits it himself. But it wont be break seals = a week to live)

 

I don't see why Egwene couldn't go to the FoM with the intent to speak with Rand about the merits of his plan instead of blindly opposing it. She still could have gathered all the leaders of the world. It just would have been less of a "Rand vs Egwene" and more of a "let's talk about this". And talking to each other is something the characters could do a lot more. Everything will probably still turn out the same, but I think Egwene is going to look a little like a fool which she wouldn't have if she had shown a bit more reflection. And tavereen wouldn't have stopped her from doing that. Her loss I guess.

[jwood01]

I wonder what part Cadsuane will play at the FoM.

 

Rand basically has the greatest living Aes Sedai (caveat: i actually think Verin is the greatest ) as his foremost adviser. What reaction will this get out of Egwene? If Egwene acts stubborn, I wouldn't put it past Cads to take off her shoe and take the Amyrlin down a notch or two.

 

Although on the otherhand, Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Elayne, Aviendha, and Min have all been given reason to trust Rand's judgement on major decisions. Egwene has not, and she may be able to provide a clear analysis of Rand's logic. Who knows, maybe Rand will be swayed.

 

Also, maybe the whole FoM meetings and the breaking of the seals debate is just a way to keep the Forsaken on their toes. Maybe Rand wanted to flush Demandred out. I have been pretty convinced by Terez that Demandred is in Murandy and is behind the attack on Camelyn.

[Kahsm]

I think you guys are doing Elayne an injustice. I find it very hard to believe she wouldn't give Rand a chance to persuade her. And given that Avienhda has to make an appearance if she's to do something about the Aiel's place in the Dragon's Peace, Elayne might have her first sister urging her to reconsider as well.

 

Also, consider this - who better than Elayne (the smooth talker) to make Egwene see sense? We do know that Egwene has to eventually come around, otherwise Latra Posae's opposition would repeat itself (and cooperation between the sexes is among RJ's main themes).

You know, that actually makes sense.Still, it's gonna have to be one hell of a sweet talk to convince her.

 

Well, she doesn't really need to be convinced to agree to the breaking of the seals, as long as Rand can count on her support when he breaks them anyway... It's the push off the cliff. Once you're over the edge you need to trust the DR.

 

Not even sure how an army would stop Rand anyway, he's got both seals... and it's not like they're hard to break. Is anyone going to throw a fit and refuse to fight at TG because the DR didn't listen to you? If Egwene went that far I'd have to stop defending her.

[jwood01]

Is anyone going to throw a fit and refuse to fight at TG because the DR didn't listen to you?

 

Isn't that exactly what happened in the AoL?

 

For the light to win TG more effectively than in the AoL, I would expect that both Rand and Egwene will need to give up their "my way or the highway" stances and come up with a compromise. We need to remember what happened in the AoL:

 

LTT: "I'm going to go seal in the bore. You are either with us, or against us."

 

LP: "Your idea is too risky. We should use the CK to kick some shadow ass until we come up with a less risky plan"

 

LTT: "You women are stubborn. I am LTT and I am awesome! Me and my bros will go do it ourselves. Who needs women anyway, all you do is nag"

 

LP: "Fine, but don't come whining to me when it doesn't work. Ugh, you men are so stubborn and rash"

 

Maybe one of the many monarchs, friends, generals, Aes Sedai, and friends will help Rand and Egwene come to a compromise.

[randsc]

It is certainly true that Egwene's acquiescence is not required. The Seals will be broken; I really think there is no debate at all about that.

 

Since the Seals will be broken whether Egwene agrees or not, we can be sure she will agree. Why? Because otherwise she would be completely irrelevent. And the author was obviously WAY too in love with that character for her to be irrelevent.

 

So, however exactly it happens, Rand will depart the FoM with Egwene on-board.

[jwood01]

It is certainly true that Egwene's acquiescence is not required. The Seals will be broken; I really think there is no debate at all about that.

 

Since the Seals will be broken whether Egwene agrees or not, we can be sure she will agree. Why? Because otherwise she would be completely irrelevent. And the author was obviously WAY too in love with that character for her to be irrelevent.

 

So, however exactly it happens, Rand will depart the FoM with Egwene on-board.

 

I agree to an extent. If Egwene is half as smart as I hope she is, then she will understand the importance of breaking them. IMO where Egwene will potentially be in disagreement with Rand will be in the timing. I can see Egwene wanting a plan of what to do after breaking them in place prior to actually breaking the seals. Whereas Rand may just trust in his LTT memories and the pattern to guide him.

 

I bet Perrin would side with Egwene on this. Elayne is spontaneous and would side with Rand.

[Kahsm]

It is certainly true that Egwene's acquiescence is not required. The Seals will be broken; I really think there is no debate at all about that.

 

Since the Seals will be broken whether Egwene agrees or not, we can be sure she will agree. Why? Because otherwise she would be completely irrelevent. And the author was obviously WAY too in love with that character for her to be irrelevent.

 

So, however exactly it happens, Rand will depart the FoM with Egwene on-board.

 

She can be a part of the aftermath without agreeing that the seals should be broken. Just because she doesn't get her way in one aspect doesn't mean she's going to take her ball and go home. Since we both agree she can't stop them from breaking, her opposition is almost irrelevant, but that doesn't make her irrelevant in whatever comes after.

[yoniy0]

The bore was wide open 100 years before the War of Power.

Small point - the Bore keeps growing. At least it had before the Seals were positioned on it. We don't really know whether it's still at the same size it was then, but it certainly wasn't as large for most of the time it existed in the AoL. And the last few years before it was Sealed were very bad indeed for the Light's side.

 

Rand [...]'s got both seals...

There are actually three still intact, and there's no assurance that Rand does have them. Recall that he once asked Bashere to hold on to one. If he did the same with the others, he might need his men's cooperation to lay his hands on them again.

[Kahsm]

Rand [...]'s got both seals...

There are actually three still intact, and there's no assurance that Rand does have them. Recall that he once asked Bashere to hold on to one. If he did the same with the others, he might need his men's cooperation to lay his hands on them again.

 

I see your point, that he may not be able to simply fetch them out of a personal chest. Though I would personally assume the risk that they weren't kept very safe by the most trustworthy of his (Bashere's) people is probably quite low. If we get a best man at the wedding scenario where Bashere has lost the rings, it'd be a rather exasperating plot twist.

[Suttree]

Rand [...]'s got both seals...

There are actually three still intact, and there's no assurance that Rand does have them. Recall that he once asked Bashere to hold on to one. If he did the same with the others, he might need his men's cooperation to lay his hands on them again.

 

I see your point, that he may not be able to simply fetch them out of a personal chest. Though I would personally assume the risk that they weren't kept very safe by the most trustworthy of his (Bashere's) people is probably quite low. If we get a best man at the wedding scenario where Bashere has lost the rings, it'd be a rather exasperating plot twist.

 

But what about a Bashere as DF plot twist?

[Elvira_Sedai]

Why no one think about Rand want Egwene leading all while he with a small crew pass to SG ? I can imagine him simply saing to his supporters : - I have another task ,lets follow her ( the Amyrlin ) . Rand already has rised Egwene's authority when she was the only one from the AS who can speek during his visit to the WT .

[USURP888]

 

But what about a Bashere as DF plot twist?

 

I don't think there is any merit to that, Darkfriends cannot stand the inner light emanating from Rand sedai. Bashere was with Rand at Maradon where the DF lord gouged his own eyes and Bashere was looking at Rand while he was killing all the trollocs, no way he could stare and not get blinded too if he was a darkfriend.

[yoniy0]

I tend to agree. My point was that, should Egwene persuade Bashere, Darlin and Dovraine that some discussion is due, they might not blindly grant Rand's request to have them back. Then again, withholding the DR the Seals (even though Egwene has self-appointed herself 'Watcher of the Seals') is a special kind of heresy, so perhaps they wouldn't go so far. After all, as Rand mentioned, he's about to sacrifice himself for them all. And he has his terms. Press him too far, and he might just retire (not really, but you get my meaning).

[FarShainMael]

 

But what about a Bashere as DF plot twist?

 

I don't think there is any merit to that, Darkfriends cannot stand the inner light emanating from Rand sedai. Bashere was with Rand at Maradon where the DF lord gouged his own eyes and Bashere was looking at Rand while he was killing all the trollocs, no way he could stare and not get blinded too if he was a darkfriend.

 

It's not that much of a twist. Recall Min's viewing of 'something dark' about Bashere.

 

As to Bashere being able to look at Rand:

 

"We need to get out of the city," Bashere said, his voice urgent. "I'm sorry, man. Maradon is lost."

 

"No," al'Thor said softly. "The Shadow will not have this city. Not after what these men did to hold it. I will not allow it."

 

"An honourable sentiment," Bashere said, "but we don't..." He trailed off as al'Thor looked at him.

 

Those eyes, So intense. They seemed almost alight.

 

......

 

Bashere looked stunned, mouth half open. "Curse that man!" he finally said, turning to the window again. "I thought he wasn't going to do this sort of thing any longer!"

 

This is not as intense as Torkumen's reaction, it's more on the same level as Weiramon in ToM13. And it could be Rand's ta'veren influence, but I don't think so somehow. Even Galad didn't react like that to Perrin.

[USURP888]

Torkumen was blinded when he wasn't even looking directly at Rand, he was in a room without any window towards where Rand was channeling. Bashere was not shown in any way affected by Rand's Inner Light.

 

After Rand lined up the Lords and caught Weiramon and the other high lady, they could not even look at Rand directly. Bashere's looked stunned when he realized Rand intended to fight the horde of trollocs alone, I know I would stand mouth agape when confronted with that scenario.

 

Rand also said to Min that they ( forces of shadow ) can no longer hide amongst his men, I doubt he would overlook Bashere if he was a DF.

[yoniy0]

And what Ituralde said of Rand's eyes is similar to what Min herself noticed. Or Egwene for that matter. Or Siuan. There's an intensity to them now, and Bashere's reaction seems one of concern for Rand. I see nothing to suggest he reacted to Rand any differently than Ituralde himself.

[MasterAblar]

I tend to agree. My point was that, should Egwene persuade Bashere, Darlin and Dovraine that some discussion is due, they might not blindly grant Rand's request to have them back. Then again, withholding the DR the Seals (even though Egwene has self-appointed herself 'Watcher of the Seals') is a special kind of heresy, so perhaps they wouldn't go so far. After all, as Rand mentioned, he's about to sacrifice himself for them all. And he has his terms. Press him too far, and he might just retire (not really, but you get my meaning).

 

Wait, Darlin has one of the seals? I knew Bashere and Dobraine had one each, but when was it mentioned that Darlin had one?

For all we know Rand may already have the seals back. Also I think those who are closest to Rand like Dobraine, Bashere, Cadsuane, etc... are already behind him as far as breaking the seals go. Even if they don't neccesarly know why Rand means to do it, they've been around him long enough that they will trust him to not do this without a good reason.

Besides Egwene isn't really going there to discuss. She's already decided to oppose.

[randsc]

"The Seals", the ones that Bashere, et al have, are not the actual seals. They are merely the focus points. It may very well be that physically breaking those disks is not required at all.

[MasterAblar]

"The Seals", the ones that Bashere, et al have, are not the actual seals. They are merely the focus points. It may very well be that physically breaking those disks is not required at all.

 

That would be a pretty awesome twist.

[DemandredFO]

An additional like Rand has to Darlin, Moiraine will be one of Rand's strongest supporters and Caraline is queen of Tear or whatever, Perrin also has Breana Taborwin or however it's spelled so that's another link to Dobraine. Cairhein may side with Rand with or without Elayne, and I doubt Illian would go against Rand if for no other reason than he kept them from starving.

[yoniy0]

Wait, Darlin has one of the seals?

I only meant that the three are good candidates to hold Rand's Seals. We know Bashere used to hold one, but we don't actually know where any of them are today. Hence my speculation. There are three, after all.

 

"The Seals", the ones that Bashere, et al have, are not the actual seals. They are merely the focus points. It may very well be that physically breaking those disks is not required at all.

Touche.

But I find it hard to believe. Ever since TEotW, the state of the focus points has been interlocked with the DO's freedom to act. They themselves crumble when the Seals break. Does that not imply that a connection exists?

[cookiecrisp]

The only thing Rand can do is threaten to let DO win if they don't meet his demands. That's not a good bargaining position.

 

However, the Rhuidean visions show the result in effect. That kind of implies he won.

[jwood01]

The only thing Rand can do is threaten to let DO win if they don't meet his demands. That's not a good bargaining position.

 

However, the Rhuidean visions show the result in effect. That kind of implies he won.

 

But what are Rand's demands? He wants their help most likely, and their channelers to fight in the last battle with him. Rand's bargaining position is more like "I will die at TG to save you all with or without your help. Help me and increase my chances of winning, or oppose me like Latra Posae did and end up with an age with insane male channelers and a second breaking of the world!"

 

Egwene has no alternative to propose, whereas Latra Posae did. Breaking the seals is inevitable. Egwene is a smart woman, so she must realize this. IMO, Egwene's point of contention is about breaking the seals without having a plan in place for what to do after. If Rand has a plan, then he should share it with Egwene ASAP.