And the Mary Sue Award Goes To...

[HighWiredSith]

Mary Sue

 

The Universal Mary Sue Litmus Test

 

Ran across this doing some research for a class I am teaching. Why is it Egewene popped immediately into my mind? Is Egwene a Mary Sue? Are Egwene, Avienda, and Elaine all Mary Sues?

[randsc]

Egwene is the definition of a Mary Sue. As I have said before, the only Mary Sue marker you can't see is the sleeping with Captain Kirk.

 

That said, I think there are some Gary Sue elements to Mat.

[Guest PiotrekS]

This thread reminds me of a tender where the conditions are set in such a way that only one company can win...

[JarboeJo]

Yes, Egwene just has to be a Mary Sue. But Rand has to take the Gary Sue cake. Right? >.>

[mbuehner]

Egwene's POV defeating Mesaana was pretty much classic Mary Sue, its still a fun scene but all the 'Egwene is a child, but the Amyrlin is the embodiment of all that is good and ancient and the spirit of christmas' was nauseating. Bigger picture I'm not so sure. Egwene made some pretty significant mistakes (Moghedien's escape, Aran gar's ministrations, her entire plan for the siege of TV fell apart when she was captured in a pretty reckless act). I think you can also argue that much of her success was necessary for the ultimate fulfillment of prophecy, she may not be Tavaren but somebody had to reunited the Tower and she was the strongest available.

 

I will say i'm more impressed with how flawed Rand is, thats kinda been the theme for me. He's overcome his own shortcomings (hard earned as they were) and thats the reason the world has a chance.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

Yes, Egwene just has to be a Mary Sue. But Rand has to take the Gary Sue cake. Right? >.>

 

Mat, by a mile IMO.

[OptimusPrime]

Rand Mat and Perrin are all Mary Sues but they have worldbuilding elements to back them up.

 

Egwene doesnt. She should die soon.

[Taura-Tierno]

I don't think her defeat of Mesaana was especially Mary Sue. That was just her being a better Dreamer, what with her actually possessing the Talent and everything.

[UncleButcher1980]

Another Egwene bashing thread? Really?

[SuperFade]

Another Egwene bashing thread? Really?

 

Not right now, but there's a somewhat high chance it may turn into one, considering how many Mary Sue traits Egwene posesses.

[Elan Tedronai]

Another Egwene bashing thread? Really?

 

 

so what's new

 

[randsc]

I actually don't this will become an Egwene-bashing thread, for the simple reason that her Mary Sue-ness is acknowleged even by most of her defenders. What's to fight about?

[UncleButcher1980]

Oh I'm sure it will. Just the mere mention of her name is enough sometimes.

[sleepinghour]

Is Egwene a Mary Sue?

Yes. She is what TV Tropes calls a Black Hole Sue:

 

Characters don't act naturally around her. They instead serve as plot enablers for her, with dialogue that only acts as set-ups for her response. She dominates every scene she is in, with most scenes without her serving only to give the characters a chance to "talk freely" about her. Most people don't oppose her and anybody who does will either realize their fault in doing so or just prove easy to overcome.

If there are any doubts, just look at the dinner scene from TGS. Egwene quotes the Karaethon Cycle (which she has apparently memorized ) while Elaida's dumbed down almost to the point of incoherency and the Sitters serve as admiring bystanders. RJ should have made Egwene a lower-level ta'veren from the start, because there are too many scenes that strain credulity otherwise.

 

"'As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men, and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes,'" Egwene said. "'The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice, and he shall wear a crown of swords.'"

 

Elaida frowned, taken aback.

 

"The Karaethon Cycle, Elaida," Egwene said. "When you had Rand locked away to be kept 'secure,' had he yet taken Illian? Had he yet worn what he was to name the Crown of Swords?"

 

"Well, no."

 

"And how did you expect him to fulfill the prophecies if he was hidden away in the White Tower?" Egwene said. "How was he to cause war, as the prophecies say he must? How was he to break the nations and bind them to him? How could he 'slay his people with the sword of peace' or 'bind the nine moons to serve him' if he was locked away? Do the prophecies say that he will be 'unfettered'? Do they not speak of the 'chaos of his passing?' How can anything pass at all if he is kept in chains?"

 

"I...."

 

"Your logic is astounding, Elaida," Egwene said coldly. At that, Ferane smiled slyly; she was probably thinking yet again that Egwene would fit well in the White Ajah.

[JarboeJo]

I like Egwene. I have a hard time relating to Rand. The power of a god in a mortal frame and three women wrapped around his finger who want to share him...

 

..yeah... :)

 

...weird. :)

[Kal11]

I have a strong suspicion that in AMOL we will learn that Egwene is in fact the Dragon Reborn and watch her single-handedly seal the bore with nothing but her spit and a little elbow grease. With everyone standing around in awe and lavishing praising upon her of course. We will then get a 200-300 page epilogue of the new Age of Legend(singular, because what else could compare to her?) she presides over perfectly before she ascends to heaven to challenge and become the new Creator. The following ages will be centered around Egwene worship until she becomes a myth and a new beginning starts.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Of course! Why didn't I think about it earlier?!

is either the real Dragon Reborn, or the Creator!

 

Now her arc makes much more sense...

[Agitel]

I filled out the test for Egwene and I got a really low not-Mary-Sue score. Rand, Mat and Perrin would all have higher scores than her, Rand especially.

[WWWwombat]

I did it for Egwene and got something in the 20's Rand got a 68 and Gandalf from LotR a 42.

[jwillis7]

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labeled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such. Male Mary Sues are often dubbed "Gary Stu", "Larry Stu", "Marty Stu", or similar names.

 

are yall crazy with rand.... Rand is hugely flawed or his arc has been, unless you are talking about this new rand which is not what a Mary Sue is, with a character after 12 HUGE books becomes. As much as egwene makes me mad she is just stubborn and is now in a position where very few people can put her in her place. but she has a flaw.

[Kal11]

I did it for Egwene and got something in the 20's Rand got a 68 and Gandalf from LotR a 42.

 

That is funny because she got a 76 by my count and I thought I was pretty kind on a number of questions. For the record I am not an Egwene hater or lover, although I do find a number of parts of her story arc ridiculous. If you only got a twenty-something you are not answering honestly.

[WWWwombat]

Did it again for Egwene going against her on the ones that could go either way and got a 61.

[CorDarei]

Well, I just did it and got 14. And that was with checking a few that I thought weren't really applicable, or at least not unique to Egwene. If you got a ridiculously high score, do you think that some of the other characters would have gotten a similar score?

 

A large part of that litmus test has to do with how the creator of the character feels about that character. Since I'm pretty sure Robert Jordan didn't put Egwene in as some kind of wish-fulfillment, I'm not even sure how much sense it makes to call Egwene a Mary Sue.

 

If you don't like Egwene, that's fine. There's no rule saying you have to like every character. But it doesn't automatically make them a Mary-Sue Satan Dark One.

[Kal11]

Well, I just did it and got 14. And that was with checking a few that I thought weren't really applicable, or at least not unique to Egwene. If you got a ridiculously high score, do you think that some of the other characters would have gotten a similar score?

A large part of that litmus test has to do with how the creator of the character feels about that character. Since I'm pretty sure Robert Jordan didn't put Egwene in as some kind of wish-fulfillment, I'm not even sure how much sense it makes to call Egwene a Mary Sue.

 

If you don't like Egwene, that's fine. There's no rule saying you have to like every character. But it doesn't automatically make them a Mary-Sue Satan Dark One.

 

Yeah I would imagine so. Many of RJ's characters have Mary Sue-ish qualities, for both better and worse. Rand would likely top her score easily by my estimate while doing it but he also faces many more setbacks, painful moments and awkwardness. It comes with making nearly every main character a wunderkind reincarnated hero.

 

Egwene is the one character that never seems to have anything bad happen to her, unless it is just making her look awesome in the process, and the way she is treated by others/effects their behavior is asinine at times. The whole idea of making an Accepted Amyrlin is easily among my top 3 implausible moments/storylines in the book. It is a pretty long sample of questions though and I honestly don't feel like running every character through it.

[CorDarei]

 

Yeah I would imagine so. Many of RJ's characters have Mary Sue-ish qualities, for both better and worse. Rand would likely top her score easily by my estimate while doing it but he also faces many more setbacks, painful moments and awkwardness. It comes with making nearly every main character a wunderkind reincarnated hero.

 

Egwene is the one character that never seems to have anything bad happen to her, unless it is just making her look awesome in the process, and the way she is treated by others/effects their behavior is asinine at times. The whole idea of making an Accepted Amyrlin is easily among my top 3 implausible moments/storylines in the book. It is a pretty long sample of questions though and I honestly don't feel like running every character through it.

 

Yeah, it is pretty long. My personal reaction to raising Egwene Amyrlin like that was a bit skeptical at first, but I do think that the maneuvering of the various factions (including the Black Ajah involvement) was plausible enough that I don't really have any problem with it.