Is Rand a Dreamer?

[dEVabox]

I finished TGS in one week, and then ToM in 3-4 days, so I have started the series anew. That being said, I just read the below part from Eye of the World, right before Chapter 35. Rand is dreaming, and he is lugging the liter that Tam was in, only it's Thom in it and Thom is saying:

 

"The Dragon is one with the land... and the land is one with the Dragon."

 

I see that as a big foreshadowing to TGS and ToM, when you see how the land reacts to Rand's presence, but I was wondering: I don't recall the phrase being mentioned any where earlier in the book (especially to Rand), and I recall that in the later books he has similar foreshadowing Dreams.

 

Does that make Rand a Dreamer, or perhaps because he is so strongly Ta'veren he can dream parts of his thread in the Pattern way before they are even prevalent?

[Mongoose]

Lews Therin was extremely strong in Spirit, and therefore so is Rand.

 

I don't think he's a Dreamer, though. I think if anything it seems to be his recurring nature. Reincarnation genetic memory, if you will.

 

 

[dEVabox]

Topic Spirit and Dreams topic states that since Bair can't use the OP, "spirit" should have nothing to do with it though, no?

 

That same topic has some replies from Brandon though on the topic, stating that Rand doesn't really prophecy anything, other then some debatable moments. Make sense, since "the one with the land" quote isn't really a prophecy. I forgot that Dreaming and Prophecy are one in the same (in a sense).

[Mongoose]

Dreaming and Foretelling are different, though similar.

Also being a Dreamer (having potentially prophetic dreams) and being a Dreamwalker (having the ability to consciously enter Tel'Aran'Riod) are seperate.

 

You don't need to be a channeller to be a Dreamwalker, but channellers who are strong in Spirit inadvertently force their dreams on others (thus why in cties occupied by male Forsaken, people start having identical nightmares, the same happens I believe in places Rand passes through in TDR)

[Luckers]

Topic Spirit and Dreams topic states that since Bair can't use the OP, "spirit" should have nothing to do with it though, no?

 

Actually no--that only proves that the Aes Sedai perception that spirit is the source of dreaming is wrong, not that spirit had nothing to do with dreaming--indeed dreamwalking is a function of the soul--which we know from Perrin in Winter's Heart when he enters the dream too heavily and feels like he has lost his soul.

 

Dreaming is a function of the soul. Spirit is the aspect of the One Power that resonated with the soul--much as Air does with air, and so forth. The Soul may dream without the One Power, but that doesn't mean Spirit can't achieve the same ends.

[herid]

Dreaming and Foretelling are different, though similar.

Also being a Dreamer (having potentially prophetic dreams) and being a Dreamwalker (having the ability to consciously enter Tel'Aran'Riod) are seperate.

 

You don't need to be a channeller to be a Dreamwalker, but channellers who are strong in Spirit inadvertently force their dreams on others (thus why in cties occupied by male Forsaken, people start having identical nightmares, the same happens I believe in places Rand passes through in TDR)

Is this just your theory? It's an interesting idea but do you have some more evidence to support it?

 

as for Rand being a Dreamer, the question is certainly murky. It has been much discussed before. BS seems to think that he isn't.

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

 

The few strange dreams Rand had early on in the series appear to me to be early-bookisms, before RJ worked out the details of Dreaming, dreamwalking etc.

[White_star]

...

as for Rand being a Dreamer, the question is certainly murky. It has been much discussed before. BS seems to think that he isn't.

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

 

The few strange dreams Rand had early on in the series appear to me to be early-bookisms, before RJ worked out the details of Dreaming, dreamwalking etc.

Didn't he do that once in TDR? When Eggy was doing her "Need" thing with the twisty stone ring she found him there. He may not have completely understood but he knew he was dreaming and he knew it was real.

 

I think he has the potential to be trained, though it's WAY too late in the story for that. Did LTT have ability to dream-walk?

[herid]

...

as for Rand being a Dreamer, the question is certainly murky. It has been much discussed before. BS seems to think that he isn't.

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

 

The few strange dreams Rand had early on in the series appear to me to be early-bookisms, before RJ worked out the details of Dreaming, dreamwalking etc.

Didn't he do that once in TDR? When Eggy was doing her "Need" thing with the twisty stone ring she found him there. He may not have completely understood but he knew he was dreaming and he knew it was real.

 

I think he has the potential to be trained, though it's WAY too late in the story for that. Did LTT have ability to dream-walk?

Ah, that's great point, you are quite right! This was definitely in TAR (TDR, Ch27). And Rand had a similar encounter with Perrin (TDR Ch 36). all of this happened before he learned to enter TAR via a gateway so that means that he can dreamwalk. BS is definitely mixing up Dreaming and dreamwalking in the quote above. so Rand is definitely a dreamwalker but likely not a Dreamer.

[Sharaman]

We have several hints that any OP user in the AoL could be trained to enter TAR without ter'angreals or Gates. It's likely that LTT either had the inborn ability or he was trained to do so. OTOH we've never seen him have a prophetic dream.

[Entreri]

i am sure LTT has done battles in TAR...being the Dragon he was probably near the top in TAR skills

[Barid Bel Medar]

I would call Rand a dreamwalker, but i dont think that is the right term. Thats what the channelers call those that can enter TAR when they will, without the aid of any external ter'angreal (speaking about channelers) . Perrin, he (technically) isnt a dreamwalker he CAN "walk in dreams" but its a different ability to the conventional Dreamwalkers.

 

I dont know if this makes sense, I guess what I am trying to say is that, Rand can enter TAR without a gateway or ter'angreal. (as mentioned, several times, most noticeably the example given from the DR.) He also has, as Brandon put it, "uncommon power over his dreams". In ToM, although the dream is speculated to be Moridin invading it and such, Rand goes into his dreams (in full awareness and control) for a bit of peace and quiet.

 

Therefore, he does have the potential at least, to be a Dreamwalker. But I dont think he can do what Egwene and the others can, not to that extent, nor iin the same fashion.

 

So, not an actuall "Dreamwalker" but he has the ability to enter TAR and control his dreams.

[wasted]

I don't recall the phrase being mentioned any where earlier in the book (especially to Rand), and I recall that in the later books he has similar foreshadowing Dreams.

 

You're right, it's not earlier, it comes way later.

 

Make sense, since "the one with the land" quote isn't really a prophecy.

 

Sorry to dissapoint, It's a prophecy!

 

The few strange dreams Rand had early on in the series appear to me to be early-bookisms, before RJ worked out the details of Dreaming, dreamwalking etc

 

Actually, this is Ishamael bringing the boys into Tel'aran'rohid (however it's called..) against their will / without their knowledge [the wise ones later said, that this was evil and a thing of the shadow].

However, we've seen Rand enter Tel' without a Gateway and apparently without someone pulling him in (Rand-Perrin, Rand-Egwene meetings).

 

 

And now the prophecy!

 

Fro 'A Crown of Swords' from the Intro (before the prologue)

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing

grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn,

and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone,

in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He

calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to

give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the

heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire,

love.

 

- From a much-disputed translation of

The Prophecies of the Dragon by the

poet Lyera Termendal, of Shiota,

believed the have been published

between FY 700 and FY 800.

 

 

Not only a prime forshadowing of 'the land is one with the dragon' but also TGS - VoG!

[Terez]

Alas, Brandon said that Rand is not a Dreamer. That was one of my pet theories, but he killed it. :(

[Barid Bel Medar]

Alas, Brandon said that Rand is not a Dreamer. That was one of my pet theories, but he killed it. :(

 

Well, if we want to get technical, he said he was pretty sure he wasnt.

 

And then he admitted that that was only because he thought of dreaming as "Egwene's thing". (unless he has clarified at another time)

 

SO with the precise nature of the forums, i would not call it proof. ALthough, I am not saying I think Rand is a dreamer, I actually do think Brandon is right, just pointing out the possibility. (So all hope is not yet lost )

[Terez]

Alas, Brandon said that Rand is not a Dreamer. That was one of my pet theories, but he killed it. :(

 

Well, if we want to get technical, he said he was pretty sure he wasnt.

 

And then he admitted that that was only because he thought of dreaming as "Egwene's thing". (unless he has clarified at another time)

 

SO with the precise nature of the forums, i would not call it proof. ALthough, I am not saying I think Rand is a dreamer, I actually do think Brandon is right, just pointing out the possibility. (So all hope is not yet lost )

Yeah, I also pointed out the same thing when he said it, and I was holding out hope that he would talk to Maria (OMG SHE'S SITTING RIGHT NEXT TO ME FANGIRL RAGE) and she would tell him he was wrong. But it seems like a rather large thing for him to have overlooked.

[Mongoose]

Is this just your theory? It's an interesting idea but do you have some more evidence to support it?

 

as for Rand being a Dreamer, the question is certainly murky. It has been much discussed before. BS seems to think that he isn't.

 

 

I don't have access to my copies of books 4-7, so no, I can't prove anything.

[dexterryu]

Dreaming and Foretelling are different, though similar.

Also being a Dreamer (having potentially prophetic dreams) and being a Dreamwalker (having the ability to consciously enter Tel'Aran'Riod) are seperate.

 

You don't need to be a channeller to be a Dreamwalker, but channellers who are strong in Spirit inadvertently force their dreams on others (thus why in cties occupied by male Forsaken, people start having identical nightmares, the same happens I believe in places Rand passes through in TDR)

Is this just your theory? It's an interesting idea but do you have some more evidence to support it?

 

as for Rand being a Dreamer, the question is certainly murky. It has been much discussed before. BS seems to think that he isn't.

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

 

The few strange dreams Rand had early on in the series appear to me to be early-bookisms, before RJ worked out the details of Dreaming, dreamwalking etc.

 

I wouldn't call it an early-bookism. Rand, Matt & Perrin all had the same types of dreams and all involved Isamael pulling them into TAR or forcing the dream upon them. Either way, it is still within the rules of TAR that are established and party of why the Wise One's view certain things to be evil.

[herid]

Dreaming and Foretelling are different, though similar.

Also being a Dreamer (having potentially prophetic dreams) and being a Dreamwalker (having the ability to consciously enter Tel'Aran'Riod) are seperate.

 

You don't need to be a channeller to be a Dreamwalker, but channellers who are strong in Spirit inadvertently force their dreams on others (thus why in cties occupied by male Forsaken, people start having identical nightmares, the same happens I believe in places Rand passes through in TDR)

Is this just your theory? It's an interesting idea but do you have some more evidence to support it?

 

as for Rand being a Dreamer, the question is certainly murky. It has been much discussed before. BS seems to think that he isn't.

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

 

The few strange dreams Rand had early on in the series appear to me to be early-bookisms, before RJ worked out the details of Dreaming, dreamwalking etc.

 

I wouldn't call it an early-bookism. Rand, Matt & Perrin all had the same types of dreams and all involved Isamael pulling them into TAR or forcing the dream upon them. Either way, it is still within the rules of TAR that are established and party of why the Wise One's view certain things to be evil.

this was clarified later in the thread by White_star. Rand is definitely a dreamwalker (we have two examples of him entering TAR in TDR without using a gateway or a ter'angreal), but he is likely not a Dreamer based on that quote by BS.

 

BTW, BS is clearly mixing together the notions of dreaming and dreamwalking in that twitter quote. I've seen other quotes by him where he does the same. That's why I also suspect that his claim that several Forsaken are Dreamers might be a case of improper terminology on his part and he really meant dreamwalking. Somebody needs to corner him on this to clarify the issue.

[Ala Rubra]

this was clarified later in the thread by White_star. Rand is definitely a dreamwalker (we have two examples of him entering TAR in TDR without using a gateway or a ter'angreal), but he is likely not a Dreamer based on that quote by BS.

 

BTW, BS is clearly mixing together the notions of dreaming and dreamwalking in that twitter quote. I've seen other quotes by him where he does the same. That's why I also suspect that his claim that several Forsaken are Dreamers might be a case of improper terminology on his part and he really meant dreamwalking. Somebody needs to corner him on this to clarify the issue.

 

Forgive my ignorance, but do we know that "dreamer" and "dreamwalker" aren't just two different words for the same thing used by two very different cultures?

[herid]

 

Forgive my ignorance, but do we know that "dreamer" and "dreamwalker" aren't just two different words for the same thing used by two very different cultures?

yes, RJ mentioned this in interviews.

scifi.com chat 14 November 2000

 

 

Ran: Are Dreaming and Dreamwalking essentially just different names for the same Talent, or are they separate Talents that often occur together? The illustrated guide seemed to confuse the issue somewhat.

 

RJ: No. They're very different. A Dreamwalker can enter dreams but a Dreamer only "understands" dreams, though Dreamwalkers are generally Dreamers too.

 

Egwene comments on this in the books too

Firmly she made herself step back to her sleeping body, but not to ordinary sleep. She never did that anymore. That one corner of her brain remained fully aware, cataloging her dreams, filing away those that foretold the future, or at any rate gave glimpses of the possible course it might take. At least she could tell that much now, though the only one she had been able to interpret so far was the dream that told of Gawyn becoming her Warder. Aes Sedai called this Dreaming, and the women who could do it Dreamers, all long dead but her, yet it had no more to do with the One Power than dreamwalking did.

-CoS, Ch 10

[SylvanFox]

 

 

Actually, this is Ishamael bringing the boys into Tel'aran'rohid (however it's called..) against their will / without their knowledge [the wise ones later said, that this was evil and a thing of the shadow].

However, we've seen Rand enter Tel' without a Gateway and apparently without someone pulling him in (Rand-Perrin, Rand-Egwene meetings).

 

I always thought this was still Ishamael bringing him into the place, when Perrin and Egwene saw him. He was ranting and raving about visions people Ishamael had "sent" to him. In the Heart of the Stone, I thought Ishamael or one of the others was bringing him there to tempt him to take Callandor.