Aiel Attacking Aes Sedai

[mb]

This page talks about the attack:: http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/56

 

Like others, I would guess Fain ordered the attack.

[Luckers]

they didn't stand in the alley waiting. It's mentioned that the came around the corner. They could have been following Demira in the main street then saw her turn into the alley and ran around to cut her off. That's much easier to imagine than an elaborate scenario with using compulsion.

 

She rounds the corner, not them. They were in the alley already, but had no reason to be--certainly they couldn't have seen her go in, and run around to cut her off.

 

perhaps yes, perhaps no. Rand was confident that he could detect male channeling in the whole Caemlyn and this was near the inner city gate. of course Rand could have been overconfident but it was still a risk. Moggy found Nynaeve and Elayne in Tanchico after Elayne channeled very briefly there.

 

Rand was speaking of channeling needed to defeat and kill an Aes Sedai--which is precisely why Taim's men used different tactics--because whatever Rand may think, he could not have detected a small web across the miles between the Palace and where this occured--even if he were paying attantion.

 

Moghedien's moot, we have no idea where she was when they channeled, and she could have had wards throughout the city like Sammael's. Rand did not, and he was not near.

 

yes, they did make an effort but it was highly risky still. Demira could have easily died. She almost did. I'm not saying that this definitely excludes the possibility of Demira's attackers being Taim's men. But it would have been a very risky endeavor if it was them because of the possibility of Demira dying. channeling on top of that would make it riskier still. I don't see it being necessary to explain the attack scene so I don't think they channeled.

 

Demira herself clarifies this issues...

 

"Then it was intended you should know Aiel had killed me. Or maybe that I was to be found before I died." She had just

recalled what that villainous-faced fellow had growled at her. "I was told to tell you all to stay away from al'Thor. Exact words. Tell the other witches to stay away from the Dragon Reborn.' I could hardly deliver that message dead, could I? How were my wounds placed?"

 

Stevan shifted on his stool, darting a pained look at her. "Both missed any organ that would have killed you on the spot, but the amount of blood you lost—"

 

So, either that it was known Aiel killed her, but more probable that she survived. They took all these precautions to ensure her survival, but even if they failed, they had precautions to ensure it was known who killed her.

 

I don't see a risk there which Taim wouldn't take--indeed, he does precisely the same thing with the attack on the Sun Palace--launches an attack whilst ensuring the blame wouldn't fall on him. And its a greater risk to make a play for Rand himself than for Demira. No, as long as he can instill plausible deniability he acts--and note, Rand did not say 'if someone else kills an Aes Sedai--he said 'if you do, or one seems to die by chance'.

[Val Mickey]

Have we seen Compulsion without a verbal command? Except for Verin's, which still involved a lot of talking.

[herid]

they didn't stand in the alley waiting. It's mentioned that the came around the corner. They could have been following Demira in the main street then saw her turn into the alley and ran around to cut her off. That's much easier to imagine than an elaborate scenario with using compulsion.

 

She rounds the corner, not them. They were in the alley already, but had no reason to be--certainly they couldn't have seen her go in, and run around to cut her off.

ok, you are right, she rounded the corner but once she did she saw them coming toward her.

She had not seen anyone at all before she rounded a corner to find five or six Aielmen coming toward her, laughing and talking among themselves. They seemed startled to see her.

-LoC, Ch 46

 

they certainly could have run around to cut her off. I see nothing wrong with that.

 

perhaps yes, perhaps no. Rand was confident that he could detect male channeling in the whole Caemlyn and this was near the inner city gate. of course Rand could have been overconfident but it was still a risk. Moggy found Nynaeve and Elayne in Tanchico after Elayne channeled very briefly there.

 

Rand was speaking of channeling needed to defeat and kill an Aes Sedai--which is precisely why Taim's men used different tactics--because whatever Rand may think, he could not have detected a small web across the miles between the Palace and where this occured--even if he were paying attantion.

 

Moghedien's moot, we have no idea where she was when they channeled, and she could have had wards throughout the city like Sammael's. Rand did not, and he was not near.

why is Moggy moot? you now have to assume that she had the wards around the town. that's another new assumption you need to make. but even if she did why couldn't Rand do that same in Caemlyn? that would only be prudent. how do you know that Rand didn't? more importantly, how would Taim know that? Rand told him that he would feel a man channeling in Caemlyn. if channeling can not be detecting across town then it would be pretty reasonable for Taim to assume that Rand has Caemlyn warded.

 

yes, they did make an effort but it was highly risky still. Demira could have easily died. She almost did. I'm not saying that this definitely excludes the possibility of Demira's attackers being Taim's men. But it would have been a very risky endeavor if it was them because of the possibility of Demira dying. channeling on top of that would make it riskier still. I don't see it being necessary to explain the attack scene so I don't think they channeled.

 

Demira herself clarifies this issues...

 

"Then it was intended you should know Aiel had killed me. Or maybe that I was to be found before I died." She had just

recalled what that villainous-faced fellow had growled at her. "I was told to tell you all to stay away from al'Thor. Exact words. Tell the other witches to stay away from the Dragon Reborn.' I could hardly deliver that message dead, could I? How were my wounds placed?"

 

Stevan shifted on his stool, darting a pained look at her. "Both missed any organ that would have killed you on the spot, but the amount of blood you lost—"

 

So, either that it was known Aiel killed her, but more probable that she survived. They took all these precautions to ensure her survival, but even if they failed, they had precautions to ensure it was known who killed her.

 

I don't see a risk there which Taim wouldn't take--indeed, he does precisely the same thing with the attack on the Sun Palace--launches an attack whilst ensuring the blame wouldn't fall on him. And its a greater risk to make a play for Rand himself than for Demira. No, as long as he can instill plausible deniability he acts--and note, Rand did not say 'if someone else kills an Aes Sedai--he said 'if you do, or one seems to die by chance'.

yes, agree, this was a risk that Taim might be willing to take - I was simply saying that there was definite risk involved. Let me repeat here that I don't mean to imply that it wasn't Taim who did it. I do think that he is the most likely suspect behind the attack. I just don't think that saidin channeling absolutely had to be involved and I actually think that it likely wasn't.

 

Have we seen Compulsion without a verbal command? Except for Verin's, which still involved a lot of talking.

I had the same thought but we actually have seen such compulsion. when Aran'gar and Delana compel Ramshalan they do most of it without saying anything. also, in Luckers' first post he mentioned Theodrin's trick with attracting men. That was presumably nonverbal too. I'm not sure though if nonverbal compulsion can be used to convey such specific instructions as "go down that alley and then turn into such and such street". it might be possible but as far as I can recall we've not seen such compulsion onscreen.

[yoniy0]

when Aran'gar and Delana compel Alsalam

Wait, what?

[herid]

when Aran'gar and Delana compel Alsalam

Wait, what?

sorry, that would be Ramshalan of course.

[Val Mickey]

It just says Graendal watched them work. Unless you mean the first instance when Graendal makes him talk? Only Graendal has ever done that, and she is the best at compulsion. Everyone else, including Rahvin, Moggy, and even Graendal herself with Moggy and Cyndane, used speech to make their victims obey. Why should this guy be better than the Forsaken?

[UGAShadow]

After ToM and a reread I think Verin did it.

 

 

1. Messana wanted Rand to accept the Tower Aes Sedai's offer to come to the Tower. What better way than making the Salidar Aes Sedai hostile to him.

 

2. Verin was Black Ajah and would have to carry out the commands if she wanted to hold her cover.

 

3. Verin is not upset at all when she finds out what has happened. She doesn't even act surprised. Even though she knows Rand better than any of the others and probably knows that this act is nothing like him.

[Terez]

As to who might have been behind the attack I don't think it would be Fain. It's not his MO and what would be the point from his point of view? At that point in the story he doesn't care if Rand makes friends with Aes Sedai. He simply wants to kill Rand (preferbly, personally).

1. To turn the Aes Sedai against Rand.

2. To turn Rand against the Aiel.

 

Both the Aiel and the Aes Sedai are a problem for Fain because they make it more difficult for Fain to get close to Rand. So...

 

He wished he could feel al’Thor’s pain; surely he had caused him pain at least. Pinpricks only so far, but enough pinpricks would drain him dry. The Whitecloaks were set hard against the Dragon Reborn. Fain’s lips peeled back in a sneer. Unlikely Niall would have ever supported al’Thor any more than Elaida would have, but it was best not to take too much for granted with Rand bloody al’Thor. Well, he had brushed them both with what he carried from Aridhol; they might possibly trust their own mothers, but never al’Thor now.

 

 

After ToM and a reread I think Verin did it.

That was Dom's theory at Wotmania (dunno if he still believes it). I don't find it to be incredibly convincing, but it's at least an interesting alternative.

[UGAShadow]

I think someone did it on Messana's order. Verin is just convenient.

[Luckers]

Have we seen Compulsion without a verbal command? Except for Verin's, which still involved a lot of talking.

 

Yes, as I pointed out above Theodrin's wilder skill was this precisely--the ability to attract or repulse.

[WoTMegaFan_007]

Has anyone ever looked into the Aiel that attack the one Aes Sedai(i can't remember her name off the top of my head) in Camemlyn, that cause them to try and teach Rand a lesson, that cause Rand to go to Cairien, that leads to him being imprisoned?

 

 

It was Fain. Later on in the book Fain admits to it. Look at the part where Fain is talking about how his ambush failed when his white cloaks tried to kill Rand.

 

NOTE: Yes, I realize that you are not talking about the attack on Rand... That's just the part where what I am talking about is located.

[yoniy0]

Later on in the book Fain admits to it. Look at the part where Fain is talking about how his ambush failed when his white cloaks tried to kill Rand.

Do you mean in LoC28: Letters? I don't think Fain has any PoV's between leaving TV in TFoH and showing up with Toram in ACoS. And I see nothing in that PoV to suggest what you're saying.

[Kal11]

Instead of convoluted theories about wordless compulsion, wards, Asha'man in disguise, psychic thugs that knew her route and everything else there is a very simple explanation. There was more than one group lying in wait. If she went down route A then group 1 attacks, route B then group 2 gives her a stab. Occam's Razor.

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

I always thought they were Shaido, as part of the deal done between Galina and Sevanna.

[herid]

I always thought they were Shaido, as part of the deal done between Galina and Sevanna.

As has been mentioned several times in the thread, the "Aiel" who attacked Demira were short and had dark eyes. Whoever it was they were definitely not Shaido or any real Aiel.

[WoTMegaFan_007]

Has anyone ever looked into the Aiel that attack the one Aes Sedai(i can't remember her name off the top of my head) in Camemlyn, that cause them to try and teach Rand a lesson, that cause Rand to go to Cairien, that leads to him being imprisoned?

 

 

It was Fain. Later on in the book Fain admits to it. Look at the part where Fain is talking about how his ambush failed when his white cloaks tried to kill Rand.

 

NOTE: Yes, I realize that you are not talking about the attack on Rand... That's just the part where what I am talking about is located.

 

 

I really don't like getting quotes for myself... just accept it. I've read the entire series for 3 years over and over via audio book on my ipod. Takes me a few months until I reread them again. Fain Attack on Rand (The white cloaks say "I'll walk in the light again" also notice their dirty cloaks) Also, fain says "That was just a test" when he's stroking the boy's face. When he found out about the Gray Man attack on Rand. "Only a few remained of his one time children of the light" search for that in book 6.

 

Anyway, I'm right. Period. It's because I am a GURU Baby.

[WoTMegaFan_007]

Also, did you know you know for sure that Verin is black ajah in book 2? Fun times.

[water_seeker]

After looking into what Guru said, I'm positive that he is wrong. Fain doesn't fit the scenario.

[Majsju]

After looking into what Guru said, I'm positive that he is wrong. Fain doesn't fit the scenario.

 

Yes, he is wrong. The most likely candidate is Taim.

[LeeM.Erickson]

I always figured Taim was behind it, everyone has already laid out a number of good reasons why it's him.

 

Although I did have a crazy thought that it might have been Marillin Gemalphin. She's mentioned a few times in LoC as being in Caemlyn, and is most recently spotted in the chapter before by the Saldaean guard right before Perrin shows up. I always wondered what she was up to during this time, and I noticed in my most recent reread that Demira notices a lot of stray cats and dogs in the alley before she's attacked. I know Marillin is most associated with cats, but the rumors about her in Caemlyn that reached Rand mentioned an Aes Sedai who was Healing cats and dogs. It's tenuous evidence at best, and really Taim really makes a lot more sense, but it's worth mentioning, I guess. There's a chance they could have made contact and been in cahoots, but it's unlikely considering she was taking orders from Moghedien, not whoever is in charge of Taim. Also, there's the fact that the warning referred to AS as witches, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that DF foot soldiers would still hold disdain for AS even while taking orders from a Black sister (see also: Carridin, Jaichim).

[mb]

Taim to me would be least likely because Rand ordered for there to be no attacks on Aes Sedia until Rand tells so.

As far as I am aware, Dumai's Wells was the only time Taim disobeyed that order (or any of Rand's orders).

 

I would narrow down the candidates (on who ordered it) to these::

-Fain

-1 or more Forsaken

-Black Ajah; ones outside of their inn.

 

I doubt Verin as well.

[wcbrooks]

Okay, I just reread box six, and its probably too old of a thought, but after reading the series and starting the re read I am looking at things a different now.

 

Anyway, I think Verin set up the attack on Demira - to me Fain would want to kill Aes Sedai and Taim would not care either way. But she was wounded and given a chance to survive and the killer might have known that a Warder would feel the impact and the message again Fain and Taim would not care. BUT

 

Verins actions afterwards take on a new light after a reread and the course of events move into a way...I do not know...suit with what Verin wishes

 

anyway just a new thought on the subject

 

ALSO JUST A SIDENOTE - you got to love the re reads as everything is seen with new way with things, for example Verins action since we now know she was Black Ajah and I am wonder how many more will come up through the re reads

[FarShainMael]

Talking of Verin and re-reads.. this is lovely:

 

Mendan settled into a crouch, watching her with startlingly blue eyes. One of them stayed with her no matter what she said. A strip of red cloth was tied around Mendan’s temples and marked with the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai. Like the other men who wore that, like the Maidens, he seemed to be waiting for her to make a mistake. Well, they were not the first, and a great way from the most dangerous. Seventy-one years had passed since she had last made a serious mistake.