Thoughts on Logain

[Kahsm]

The fact that it's just a foundation makes it more likely to me. They'll just build a tower similar to the white one on that foundation instead of the palace, which would obviously not be appropriate for an organization to use as a "school/academy".

 

And where do the Ashaman live while it's being built?

 

On the farm? Maybe they'll use the OP to build it. Assuming this is all post TG, the Ogier might come out in droves to build a new super tower for the AM in TV. Won't necessarily take that long.

[MasterAblar]

If they did move to Tar Valon why wouldn't they just live in the tower with the others. It's half empty as it is.

 

I'm sure the Aes Sedai will be very happy about that. And beyond their personal feelings, the WT is beginning to fill up. Novices are pouring in, and knowing Egwene she'll want that to continue.

 

Im saying if they did move to Tar Valon. Others were saying they would live in Elaida's tower, which isnt even finished or close to it. Instead of building another Tower they could of moved in despite the increased number of novices. Nearly every description of the Tower is focused upon how empty it is.

 

I don't think they will move to Tar Valon, they have there own place. They only possible way I could see them even consider moving there, is if the black tower was rent in blood and destruction.

 

Yeah, I understood what you were saying. But allowing them live in the WT is a step further from letting them set up a Tower right next to you. And like I said, the Tower might have quite a bit of space to spare at the moment, but that's changing rather quickly and might even speed up after the Last Battle, when Egwene will be able to focus on the the WT, particularly the number of channellers, instead of the Last Battle. Add in the Ashaman and you double not only the residents of the Tower but also the speed at which it'll fill up. If Egwene is thinking ahead she'll realize that they're going to run out of space quite rapidly. The WT was not built to accomodate male channellers as well. Not to mention some of the Ashaman have families as well.

 

And of coure I agree that they won't be moving to Tar Valon.

 

On the farm? Maybe they'll use the OP to build it. Assuming this is all post TG, the Ogier might come out in droves to build a new super tower for the AM in TV. Won't necessarily take that long.

 

The Tower won't be built in days either. I don't think we've been told how long it took to build the WT, but I doubt it was done quickly. As for living on the Farm, if it's still there, why move? There's no need.

[Kahsm]

There might be a need if Elayne tells them to leave =)

[MasterAblar]

There might be a need if Elayne tells them to leave =)

 

And she enforces that order how?

 

Besides, if they only leave because Elayne tells them to, how would the Tower in Tar Valon be ready for them? If they were planning on staying in Andor there would have been on reason for construction to begin on the Tower.

[Kahsm]

"You may stay until the tower is done. At that time you must leave. You do not have to go to the tower, but I will not have squatters in my kingdom. The Dragon has no right to give you land in Andor"

 

And really, you think the Asha'man are going to entrench themselves and defy an Aes Sedai queen? Is that really how you want them to start their post-weapon channeling careers? =)

[MasterAblar]

"You may stay until the tower is done. At that time you must leave. You do not have to go to the tower, but I will not have squatters in my kingdom. The Dragon has no right to give you land in Andor"

 

And really, you think the Asha'man are going to entrench themselves and defy an Aes Sedai queen? Is that really how you want them to start their post-weapon channeling careers? =)

 

If the Farm is still there to be lived on, why move to Tar Valon at all? There is no need to (are we going in circles?).

 

If they want to stay, what can Elayne do to make them leave? Post-weapon and Aes Sedai queen or not, the BT is their home, and was a haven for them at first, so I doubt they will be eager to leave it.

[Kahsm]

She could make them leave by asking them to leave. How would they stay if she asked? Just defy her using their superior channeling? Which means to WAR Andor for a farm? Effectively rebel and steal Andoran land?

 

I don't see how anyone in the world would accept them as anything but thugs and powermongers if they did that.

 

And if Egwene decides she not only wants all female channelers, but all channelers period tied to the WT, then Elayne may just do that to nudge them that direction.

 

Maybe Rand will carve them out a piece of the Two Rivers to establish themselves on, but certainly Elayne could eject them if she wished unless they decided to war Andor for a plot of land...

 

As for why they themselves might choose to go. The Farm is secluded and out of the way. TV is basically the center of the world. That's a good reason to move if you actually want to be more of a player on the world stage.

 

Hell, maybe the'll keep growing and keep both locations. An embassy in Andor, or an embssy in the TW (if it's built as a palace and not a tower). Either way, keeping a building foundation on tower grounds unmentioned for the rest of the books seems pretty strange, and the AM are the logical choice to fill it somehow.

 

Maybe it'll be a palliative care building for the Kin lolol.

[Suttree]

She could make them leave by asking them to leave. How would they stay if she asked? Just defy her using their superior channeling? Which means to WAR Andor for a farm? Effectively rebel and steal Andoran land?

 

I don't see how anyone in the world would accept them as anything but thugs and powermongers if they did that.

 

True, defying monarchs and annexing pieces of land against their will is the quickest way to turn the entire world against them. At that point very ruler in the land would be thinking what country is safe? With Taim gone much of their more extreme tendencies will be gone as well. They would not risk it.

 

Then again Elayne would have to have very good reason to ask them in the first place. Precedent is set at this point for their current location. We will have to see how he BT battle changes things.

 

Edit: As Majsju mentions below, I don't expect the BT to still be their post battle.

[Majsju]

Many here seem to expect the farm to be around when the dust settles after TG. But don't forget what Elaida Foretold...

"The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds."

 

 

Chances are that the coming showdown will leave little except for a pile of smoking rocks.

[Mattthecoolfish]

He'll take up singing and become a huge pop star after the Last Battle, the Elvis of Randland.

I second this motion.

[Owayn The Traveller]

If they did move to Tar Valon why wouldn't they just live in the tower with the others. It's half empty as it is.

 

I'm sure the Aes Sedai will be very happy about that. And beyond their personal feelings, the WT is beginning to fill up. Novices are pouring in, and knowing Egwene she'll want that to continue.

 

Im saying if they did move to Tar Valon. Others were saying they would live in Elaida's tower, which isnt even finished or close to it. Instead of building another Tower they could of moved in despite the increased number of novices. Nearly every description of the Tower is focused upon how empty it is.

 

I don't think they will move to Tar Valon, they have there own place. They only possible way I could see them even consider moving there, is if the black tower was rent in blood and destruction.

 

Yeah, I understood what you were saying. But allowing them live in the WT is a step further from letting them set up a Tower right next to you. And like I said, the Tower might have quite a bit of space to spare at the moment, but that's changing rather quickly and might even speed up after the Last Battle, when Egwene will be able to focus on the the WT, particularly the number of channellers, instead of the Last Battle. Add in the Ashaman and you double not only the residents of the Tower but also the speed at which it'll fill up. If Egwene is thinking ahead she'll realize that they're going to run out of space quite rapidly. The WT was not built to accomodate male channellers as well. Not to mention some of the Ashaman have families as well.

 

And of coure I agree that they won't be moving to Tar Valon.

 

On the farm? Maybe they'll use the OP to build it. Assuming this is all post TG, the Ogier might come out in droves to build a new super tower for the AM in TV. Won't necessarily take that long.

 

The Tower won't be built in days either. I don't think we've been told how long it took to build the WT, but I doubt it was done quickly. As for living on the Farm, if it's still there, why move? There's no need.

 

 

A fair amount of channelers, both male and female, will die in last battle freeing up space in the tower. And how many ashaman are shadow lovers? Fighting beside each on the same side will also break down the barriers and might help pave the way to a unisex tower.

Also male channelers give them an edge against the seanchan.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Mistrust and other negative emotions will fade after the Dark One's prison is resealed. In the Age of Legends, there were such things but not to the extent that it created wars and what not - there were still seedy bars and people with ambition, but the good of society was on the forefront of peoples' minds and one gained reputation by building things that benefited society as whole (hence the third name, etc). I think as time goes on and the Bore is sealed, this will be something that the world experiences again. And, in that, the Aes Sedai and Asha'man will work together to rebuild the world. This gives Logain extraordinary opportunity to rise up as a leader and fulfill the "glory" viewing.

[MasterAblar]

She could make them leave by asking them to leave. How would they stay if she asked? Just defy her using their superior channeling? Which means to WAR Andor for a farm? Effectively rebel and steal Andoran land?

 

I don't see how anyone in the world would accept them as anything but thugs and powermongers if they did that.

 

And if Egwene decides she not only wants all female channelers, but all channelers period tied to the WT, then Elayne may just do that to nudge them that direction.

 

Maybe Rand will carve them out a piece of the Two Rivers to establish themselves on, but certainly Elayne could eject them if she wished unless they decided to war Andor for a plot of land...

 

As for why they themselves might choose to go. The Farm is secluded and out of the way. TV is basically the center of the world. That's a good reason to move if you actually want to be more of a player on the world stage.

 

Hell, maybe the'll keep growing and keep both locations. An embassy in Andor, or an embssy in the TW (if it's built as a palace and not a tower). Either way, keeping a building foundation on tower grounds unmentioned for the rest of the books seems pretty strange, and the AM are the logical choice to fill it somehow.

 

Maybe it'll be a palliative care building for the Kin lolol.

 

You really think Elayne does not want them gone already? She said herself that she has no power to make them move, no more than if the entire WT was transported to Andor. She wants them gone, she just can't do anything about it. If they refuse to move, it's for Elayne to act, since they're already on the land and they don't care about gaining any more. And she would have to be insane to attack the BT. What else can she do but tolerate their presense, which she is already doing? The best Elayne could come up with against Taim was to not sell any food to the BT. With Travelling that's barely an issue at all. They can buy their food in Tear or Bandar Eban. They'll get a better variety of food that way too. And besides, if an Ashaman takes off his coat, he looks like any other man. Is she going to stop every man in Caemlyn from buying food? If Elayne is smart to begin with, she'll be thinking of all the benefits there can be to working with the Ashaman instead of getting into a fight she has no way of winning.

 

As for their reputation with the rest of the world, it's already has bad as it can get. If after the Last Battle, they go around and help out, and overall don't do things worthy of bloodthirsty insane men, their reputation will slowly, with time, go up. If they prove themselves to be good people, who don't go around stealing peoples lands, then I don't think that the situation of the BT's location will really be an issue. In the short term, once the LB is no longer looming, it might be an issue, but that doesn't really matter, because people already pretty much hate them anyway.

 

Tar Valon might be the most important city in the world, but Caemlyn is not exactly insignificant. And the Ashaman don't have any influence over anybody anyway, they don't have the ability to be a player on the world stage yet.

 

A fair amount of channelers, both male and female, will die in last battle freeing up space in the tower. And how many ashaman are shadow lovers? Fighting beside each on the same side will also break down the barriers and might help pave the way to a unisex tower.

Also male channelers give them an edge against the seanchan.

 

We don't know precisely how many Ashaman are darkfriends, but I imagine the proportions are more or less equal to that of the WT's. Channellers will die in the Last Battle for sure, but compared to the number of novices that Egwene has been picking up and will continue to pick, perhaps even faster after the LB, it's a very small loss.

 

Fighting beside each other will help, but it'll take more than that to make them really trust and respect each other again. And of course male channellers would give them an edge against the Seanchan, but there are also many other reasons for which the Ashaman and Aes Sedai should work together. The problem is they don't want to work together. So far the Ashaman want nothing to do with the Aes Sedai, and the Aes Sedai, at best, want to bond all of them. So there's quite a ways to go.

 

Mistrust and other negative emotions will fade after the Dark One's prison is resealed. In the Age of Legends, there were such things but not to the extent that it created wars and what not - there were still seedy bars and people with ambition, but the good of society was on the forefront of peoples' minds and one gained reputation by building things that benefited society as whole (hence the third name, etc). I think as time goes on and the Bore is sealed, this will be something that the world experiences again. And, in that, the Aes Sedai and Asha'man will work together to rebuild the world. This gives Logain extraordinary opportunity to rise up as a leader and fulfill the "glory" viewing.

 

I don't think the DO really matters on this subject. What's needed is time, nothing else. It'll happen eventually but not until all the hatred and prejudice passes away. Having generations who have never lived with the fear of male channellers will help quite a bit.

[TheAngryDruid]

My two cents.

 

Step one. After the battle of Caemlyn, the Black Tower is in VERY bad shape. During the fight, the utility of males/females working together is demonstrated.

 

Step two. After the Seanchan attack the Tower, it isn't doing so hot either. But again, male/female channeling combos are effective.

 

Step three. Word finally gets out that Damer healed the AS Rand stilled back to full strength, as Nynaeve did for Logain. Throw this in with the whole saidin/saidar at the cleansing, and the battler performances, and the whole "the greatest works of the Age of Legends were always performed using saidin and saidar together" and someone, FINALLY, gets the idea of AM and AS being housed together (though not all will chose to do so).

 

Once that is done, the AM view on NOT remaining apart from everyone else will permeate through the tower. Combine it with the way Nynaeve feels, and the change will come.

[BrainFireBob]

The colors of Min's viewings do matter.

 

Green, brown, and sickly yellow were the images around Rand, as I recall. Eriath was a Green who viciously beat him for her Warder- need to re-read for more details.

[Maleshub]

I am hoping that the Amyrlin and Tamyrlin will rule the White Tower together. That would put a strong check on the Seanchan. In Aviendha's vision, the two towers were not united when the Raven Empire devoured them. But if they were united, the Seanchan threat can be neutralized.

 

In addition, we see the books moving more towards Ashaman - Aes Sedai teamwork. I hope that develops along into the above wish.

[Suttree]

I am hoping that the Amyrlin and Tamyrlin will rule the White Tower together.

 

Agree about the teamwork, I would like to see more as well.

 

As for Tamrylin that was never a title. It is thought to be the name of the first person who learned to channel.

[Maleshub]

Agree about the teamwork, I would like to see more as well.

 

As for Tamrylin that was never a title. It is thought to be the name of the first person who learned to channel.

 

In the prologue to TEotW, Elan Morin (Ishy) says, ".... Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat of the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion ...."

 

I understood that as being top male Aes Sedai; or even top Aes Sedai in the age of legends.

 

Edit: after googling the word, the word Tamyrlin is not a title. I wonder what title would be given to the leader of male Aes Sedai after TG!

[master]

the prologue to TEotW, Elan Morin (Ishy) says, ".... Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat of the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion ...."

 

I understood that as being top male Aes Sedai; or even top Aes Sedai in the age of legends.

 

Edit: after googling the word, the word Tamyrlin is not a title. I wonder what title would be given to the leader of male Aes Sedai after TG!

 

from what I understand teh ring of tamyrlin was a symbol like the amyrlins striped stole. not a title.

[Kelandon]

I wonder what title would be given to the leader of male Aes Sedai after TG!

Hopefully not "M'Hael."

[MasterAblar]

I am hoping that the Amyrlin and Tamyrlin will rule the White Tower together. That would put a strong check on the Seanchan. In Aviendha's vision, the two towers were not united when the Raven Empire devoured them. But if they were united, the Seanchan threat can be neutralized.

 

In addition, we see the books moving more towards Ashaman - Aes Sedai teamwork. I hope that develops along into the above wish.

 

The Seanchan were not a threat until the Aiel got bored. That's when things started going downhill.

 

I do agree on the teamwork though, and hope that it, at some point, developps into true respect.

 

Hopefully not "M'Hael."

 

It would be a nice punch in the face to Taim though. And the Ashaman should really keep their roots, even if the memory of the first M'Hael will not be particularly pleasant.

[Shawnchan]

I really like all of the theories postulated in this thread.

 

The idea of Elaidas pride, (the new tower) turned against her as a red, being used for male channelers is intriguing, and ironic. After all we do have countless references to Asha'man building everything with the Power. They could theoretically finish the second Tower relatively fast. We also have many references to the White Tower being virtually empty and un-used. The Kin and all of the Wilders could not begin to fill it up; A vast army of males could do this.

Also, the cyclical nature of the Wheel tells us that once they worked together so, it seems apparent that they will once more...Unless there is no more Saidar\Saidin in the next age.

Also Rand declaring himself Rand Sedai could be a bit of foreshadowing to state the obvious.

There will be male Aes Sedai again.

 

As far as the Black Tower. The prophesy states "The Black Tower will be rent in fire and death." No big deal here. We all know that the Black Tower will be a battlefront.

The Asha'man have been created to be weapons, they will be slinging about destructive weaves.

On the flip side. The White Tower was rent in fire and death\blood but, it still stands. And it will be attacked again per Egg-Waynes visions. But, it still stands. Why cant the Black Tower still stand?

 

"Sisters will walk its grounds"

 

I do not believe this has happened yet; at least not in the way we believe. Captured Aes Sedai and, Elayne might not be what was intended here.

 

The prophesy says.

 

#1 The Black Tower will be rent in blood and flames.

 

Then After the rending.

 

#2 sisters will walk its grounds.

 

First one then the other. It doesn't say that Sisters will walk its grounds then the Tower will be rent.

 

What if the deal with the Aiel, Windfinders, Aes Sedai etc. That Egg-Wayne brokered, simply means that the Asha'man will eventually be included in this deal of mutual sharing and learning?

 

Personally I hope that Egg-Wayne has to bow before Rand and recognize him as her superior.

[Maleshub]

I wonder what title would be given to the leader of male Aes Sedai after TG!

Hopefully not "M'Hael."

 

Amen!

 

 

As far as the Black Tower. The prophesy states "The Black Tower will be rent in fire and death." No big deal here. We all know that the Black Tower will be a battlefront.

The Asha'man have been created to be weapons, they will be slinging about destructive weaves.

On the flip side. The White Tower was rent in fire and death\blood but, it still stands. And it will be attacked again per Egg-Waynes visions. But, it still stands. Why cant the Black Tower still stand?

 

"Sisters will walk its grounds"

 

I do not believe this has happened yet; at least not in the way we believe. Captured Aes Sedai and, Elayne might not be what was intended here.

 

The prophesy says.

 

#1 The Black Tower will be rent in blood and flames.

 

Then After the rending.

 

#2 sisters will walk its grounds.

 

First one then the other. It doesn't say that Sisters will walk its grounds then the Tower will be rent.

 

What if the deal with the Aiel, Windfinders, Aes Sedai etc. That Egg-Wayne brokered, simply means that the Asha'man will eventually be included in this deal of mutual sharing and learning?

 

Personally I hope that Egg-Wayne has to bow before Rand and recognize him as her superior.

 

Nice analysis of Elaida's foretelling and the order of events. But I hope that the black tower will be destroyed. (Anything symbol Tiam built, I want demolished).

 

Tar Valon has room for Ashaman after Nynaeve heals all of them from the traces of the taint. Instead of Elaida's palace, they could build another tower for the male Aes Sedai. From an "engineering" perspective, there would be no accommodation problems in Tar Valon.

 

As to Egwene bowing before Rand and recognizing him as her superior, these are two different things. She already recognizes him as the Dragon Reborn, the most powerful human walking the face of the earth, and the savior of mankind against the DO. What more does she have to recognize?

 

But recognition and respect doesn't include bowing. Rand has already moved past that amateurish idea. He "taverned" Aes Sedai to swear fealty to him after Dumai Wells. But afterwards, he admonished Tiam and Logain for bonding more.

 

The question is: Does Rand want Egwene to bow to him? No! He doesn't. It was he who went to the White Tower and stood before Egwene asking for her help. And she wanted to help and has to help and will help when they agree on the strategy.

 

So, I don't think anyone needs to bow to anybody from now on (unless they want to, of course). It seems that the final chapter is about cooperation more than subjugation.

[MasterAblar]

Nice analysis of Elaida's foretelling and the order of events. But I hope that the black tower will be destroyed. (Anything symbol Tiam built, I want demolished).

 

It's more than a symbol of Taim though, it's a symbol for all the Ashaman. It was a haven for all male channellers, the only one in the world, and it gave them a purpose. They certainly believe in it's future as we can see in Androl's pov. Taim's palace however, I wouldn't mind being razed to the ground.

[Maleshub]

Nice analysis of Elaida's foretelling and the order of events. But I hope that the black tower will be destroyed. (Anything symbol Tiam built, I want demolished).

 

It's more than a symbol of Taim though, it's a symbol for all the Ashaman. It was a haven for all male channellers, the only one in the world, and it gave them a purpose. They certainly believe in it's future as we can see in Androl's pov. Taim's palace however, I wouldn't mind being razed to the ground.

 

Based on the Age of Legends and Aviendha's 3rd experience in Rhuidean, I want to see all Ashaman in the White Tower. The unification of male and female power is a pre-requisite to strength and greatness. The BT will give Ashaman their independence and symbol; but it will institutionalize the divide.

 

The BT served an important purpose; and needed to be there for Rand to succeed. But that, in my opinion, was for a limited stage when Ashaman were considered rabid dogs. Now the world knows that they cannot go mad; and Nynaeve can teach others how to heal all of them from the previous taint. With Ashaman accepted in the world, why remain divided?