Why worry about breaking the seals

[jwillis7]

So if I am not wrong, between the time Lanfear and the others drilled the bore and LTT and the hundred companions sealed it up, nothing was "comtaining" the dark one, and he did not destroy the world. So my question is what is the big deal if he was not able to destroy the pattern before LTT sealed him why do people think breaking the seals is the end all. The bore was open for years during the war of the shadow.

 

And i think most people know that there is a time gap between the drilling and the sealing

[MasterAblar]

So if I am not wrong, between the time Lanfear and the others drilled the bore and LTT and the hundred companions sealed it up, nothing was "comtaining" the dark one, and he did not destroy the world. So my question is what is the big deal if he was not able to destroy the pattern before LTT sealed him why do people think breaking the seals is the end all. The bore was open for years during the war of the shadow.

 

And i think most people know that there is a time gap between the drilling and the sealing

 

They don't really know the details of the AOL so I'm not sure they do know about the time gap. Even if they did know, breaking the seals on the bore would allow the DO greater influence on the world, so the typical reaction is going to be negative unless it is explained why the seals must be broken.

[OptimusPrime]

Egwene doesnt want them to be broken because from her perspective they were built for a reason, and by people who had a much more advanced understanding of the Power than almost anyone living. One of the Amyrlins titles is the Watcher of the Seals. Judging how strong her sense of responsibility she isnt going to take them being broken too lightly.

 

Why am I explaining Egwenes actions?!? I HATE her!!!

[Muad Cheade]

We see the great effect the Dark One is having on the world already. If the Bore is open to the extent that it was in the Age of Legends, then the Light's chances of victory become even more dire.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

I read some where that the bore has expanded. I think it was from a BS book tour Q&A and it might have even been at his signing in Baltimore after the ToM release that I went to so maybe I heard it and didn't read it.

 

How he explained it was, the bore continued to expand very slowly, even though it was sealed and if all of the seals were removed the DO would have much more control over the world than in the AoL. Now I'm paraphrasing quite a bit, but that is the sense I got.

 

Funny thing is as much as I support Egween I think she is dead wrong about the seals for two reasons.

 

First, if you let them break on their own mankind will be lost long before the last one breaks. Between people starving, bubbles of evil, and the Seanchan trying to reunite AH's lands there isn't much more time before Randland is toast.

 

Second, if you are going up against superior forces it is always better to do it on your terms and not theirs!

 

With that said, she made the call she felt was right based on the limited information she had. She asked Rand for more, but since he really wanted her to oppose the idea and gather his forces for him, I can see why he didn't want to let her in on his plan.

[MasterAblar]

I read some where that the bore has expanded. I think it was from a BS book tour Q&A and it might have even been at his signing in Baltimore after the ToM release that I went to so maybe I heard it and didn't read it.

 

How he explained it was, the bore continued to expand very slowly, even though it was sealed and if all of the seals were removed the DO would have much more control over the world than in the AoL. Now I'm paraphrasing quite a bit, but that is the sense I got.

 

Funny thing is as much as I support Egween I think she is dead wrong about the seals for two reasons.

 

First, if you let them break on their own mankind will be lost long before the last one breaks. Between people starving, bubbles of evil, and the Seanchan trying to reunite AH's lands there isn't much more time before Randland is toast.

 

Second, if you are going up against superior forces it is always better to do it on your terms and not theirs!

 

With that said, she made the call she felt was right based on the limited information she had. She asked Rand for more, but since he really wanted her to oppose the idea and gather his forces for him, I can see why he didn't want to let her in on his plan.

 

About your first reason: thing is Egwene doesn't think breaking the seals is necessary for Rand to do what he has to do. At least that's what she tells Elayne and Nynaeve, that Rand should be able to seal away the DO without breaking the seals. How or why she believes that I have no idea, but that's what she said.

[rsahae]

Egwene doesnt want them to be broken because from her perspective they were built for a reason, and by people who had a much more advanced understanding of the Power than almost anyone living. One of the Amyrlins titles is the Watcher of the Seals. Judging how strong her sense of responsibility she isnt going to take them being broken too lightly.

 

Why am I explaining Egwenes actions?!? I HATE her!!!

 

Ironically, in an inverse of you, I like Egwene but here I'm going to criticize her. When you say they were built by people with more advanced understanding...it's just funny because it occurs to me that isn't she dealing with the *very* person who built them in the first place? And she's right: Lews Therin Telamon has a much more advanced understanding of the Power

[Muad Cheade]

Egwene doesnt want them to be broken because from her perspective they were built for a reason, and by people who had a much more advanced understanding of the Power than almost anyone living. One of the Amyrlins titles is the Watcher of the Seals. Judging how strong her sense of responsibility she isnt going to take them being broken too lightly.

 

Why am I explaining Egwenes actions?!? I HATE her!!!

 

Ironically, in an inverse of you, I like Egwene but here I'm going to criticize her. When you say they were built by people with more advanced understanding...it's just funny because it occurs to me that isn't she dealing with the *very* person who built them in the first place? And she's right: Lews Therin Telamon has a much more advanced understanding of the Power

He is also the same one who nearly broke the world by improperly placing the seals. Breaking the seals with no plan is as dangerous as using the same plan LTT used earlier.

[nolirion]

Do sealed , Food turn toxic (very very toxic) ,

vilage go on rampage at night( and blight village pop out of nowhere ,

weather is obviously but not totally controlled by him,since the first book the Do as Messed with the thermostat.

People turning into three , dead walking among the living .

Considering that , a bit of caution is not to much .

[Alternate34]

Comparisons of the Third Age to the Second Age are inapt. Prior to the drilling of the bore, the people of the Age of Legends had an advanced civilization both socially and technologically. They enjoyed peace and prosperity. They literally had people getting in circles and singing (True Aiel and the Nym). Poverty, famine, disease had all been near conquered. Men and women had been working the One Power together for centuries without knowing the Dark One. There were no such things as darkfriends, dreadlords, shadowspawn, or the Forsaken. Those with power truly cared for those without. Basically, when the Bore was originally drilled, the world had a long, long way to fall before it was ripe for the Dark One.

 

In the Third Age, people starve. War ravages various parts of the land. People are mistrustful of outsiders. The rulers have formed a separate class that may or may not care about the ruled depending on where you live. Progress in the One Power is stunted because of the Breaking and the lack of male channelers. The world is constantly under pressure from the Shadow, with the northern lands constantly beating back shadowspawn and darkfriends permeating the southern lands. Several civilizations have risen and fallen in the time since the Breaking. Recently, the Dark One's influence has slowly grown. Breaking the seals would give him full influence over a world that is already decaying. His victory is so much closer. The worry over breaking the seals is rooted in these facts. The people of the Third Age are far closer to falling over the precipice than the people of the Second Age were at the time of the drilling.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Egwene doesnt want them to be broken because from her perspective they were built for a reason, and by people who had a much more advanced understanding of the Power than almost anyone living. One of the Amyrlins titles is the Watcher of the Seals. Judging how strong her sense of responsibility she isnt going to take them being broken too lightly.

 

Why am I explaining Egwenes actions?!? I HATE her!!!

 

Ironically, in an inverse of you, I like Egwene but here I'm going to criticize her. When you say they were built by people with more advanced understanding...it's just funny because it occurs to me that isn't she dealing with the *very* person who built them in the first place? And she's right: Lews Therin Telamon has a much more advanced understanding of the Power

 

At this point I am pretty sure Egween thinks she is dealing with Rand, her childhood friend who has become the DR, however there is no indication she knows that she is dealing more with LTT than the Rand she used to know. She has no idea he has knowledge of how the seals were built and she certainly doesn't know that he was the one that built them.

 

And of course this is exactly how LTT/Rand wants it because he is using her to help him assemble his troops.

 

She was played like a fiddle and didn't even know it.

[MasterAblar]

Egwene doesnt want them to be broken because from her perspective they were built for a reason, and by people who had a much more advanced understanding of the Power than almost anyone living. One of the Amyrlins titles is the Watcher of the Seals. Judging how strong her sense of responsibility she isnt going to take them being broken too lightly.

 

Why am I explaining Egwenes actions?!? I HATE her!!!

 

Ironically, in an inverse of you, I like Egwene but here I'm going to criticize her. When you say they were built by people with more advanced understanding...it's just funny because it occurs to me that isn't she dealing with the *very* person who built them in the first place? And she's right: Lews Therin Telamon has a much more advanced understanding of the Power

He is also the same one who nearly broke the world by improperly placing the seals. Breaking the seals with no plan is as dangerous as using the same plan LTT used earlier.

 

He placed the seals perfectly actually. The taint was inevitable since something has to touch the DO. Just pointing that out.

[MasterAblar]

Egwene doesnt want them to be broken because from her perspective they were built for a reason, and by people who had a much more advanced understanding of the Power than almost anyone living. One of the Amyrlins titles is the Watcher of the Seals. Judging how strong her sense of responsibility she isnt going to take them being broken too lightly.

 

Why am I explaining Egwenes actions?!? I HATE her!!!

 

Ironically, in an inverse of you, I like Egwene but here I'm going to criticize her. When you say they were built by people with more advanced understanding...it's just funny because it occurs to me that isn't she dealing with the *very* person who built them in the first place? And she's right: Lews Therin Telamon has a much more advanced understanding of the Power

 

At this point I am pretty sure Egween thinks she is dealing with Rand, her childhood friend who has become the DR, however there is no indication she knows that she is dealing more with LTT than the Rand she used to know. She has no idea he has knowledge of how the seals were built and she certainly doesn't know that he was the one that built them.

 

And of course this is exactly how LTT/Rand wants it because he is using her to help him assemble his troops.

 

She was played like a fiddle and didn't even know it.

 

Well he sort of told her in their meeting that he remembered LTT's life as if it was his own. And she did notice that Rand wasn't acting at all how she expected him to at their meeting. Still seeing as he told he very little going to the meeting wanting to hear more is probably a good idea. Shame her stance is so hostile instead of neutral.

[Muad Cheade]

Egwene doesnt want them to be broken because from her perspective they were built for a reason, and by people who had a much more advanced understanding of the Power than almost anyone living. One of the Amyrlins titles is the Watcher of the Seals. Judging how strong her sense of responsibility she isnt going to take them being broken too lightly.

 

Why am I explaining Egwenes actions?!? I HATE her!!!

 

Ironically, in an inverse of you, I like Egwene but here I'm going to criticize her. When you say they were built by people with more advanced understanding...it's just funny because it occurs to me that isn't she dealing with the *very* person who built them in the first place? And she's right: Lews Therin Telamon has a much more advanced understanding of the Power

He is also the same one who nearly broke the world by improperly placing the seals. Breaking the seals with no plan is as dangerous as using the same plan LTT used earlier.

 

He placed the seals perfectly actually. The taint was inevitable since something has to touch the DO. Just pointing that out.

Yes. The method he used was improper. Not the seals themselves. As I said.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I read some where that the bore has expanded. I think it was from a BS book tour Q&A and it might have even been at his signing in Baltimore after the ToM release that I went to so maybe I heard it and didn't read it.

 

How he explained it was, the bore continued to expand very slowly, even though it was sealed and if all of the seals were removed the DO would have much more control over the world than in the AoL. Now I'm paraphrasing quite a bit, but that is the sense I got.

One of the Forsaken I think either Demandred or Graendal remarked how the bore was larger than before LTT sealed it.

 

The way I understand it the bore is a Gateway to wherever the DO is sealed. The DO is continuously exerting his power against the Pattern to expand it and the seals LTT placed are similar to the block Rand used when he hunted down Asmo in Rhuidean. Only instead of keeping it open. The block keeps the DO from reaching through. The problem which LTT didn't adress is that the original opening to the DO wasn't closed. Herid Fel already told Rand what had to be done. The pattern has to revert to the state as if there never had been an opening in the prison of the DO. And that practically screams Unweaving to me. RJ didn't put the drilling of the bore in the Aiel memories of Rhuidean for shits and giggles. The bore was drilled by Lanfear and Beidomon, I think that was his name. It will have to be unwoven. Luckily Lanfear is just waiting for Rand to rescue her so she can tell him all about how the original drilling was accomplished.

 

That way there won't be anything which directly touches the DO and everyone can live happily ever after. Except Gawyn who shall die a horrible horrible death getting killed by Narg's brother two seconds before the Bore is closed.

[Byzantine279]

The bore seems to simply a hole in creation, a tear in the fabric of space and time, and the DO has been using his all to try to make it larger. The hole may be bigger than when the seals were placed, but that really is just a call to act quickly, because if it got bigger then, then there is no doubt that unless Rand is successful it will continue to grow, and if it gets large enough for him to truly come through...

 

All in all no one has a plan, and for good reason: Both of the plans in the AOL are not viable, the first one led to disaster, and the CK have been destroyed (and that plan simply wouldn't be viable with the bore as large as it is now). Basically Egwene has been so busy gathering support against Rand and planning for after the Last Battle she never bothered to come up with a plan for DURING. And Rand has been so busy doing whatever he has been doing he hasn't come up with one, or perhaps he is wise enough to know he can't figure it out, so he is letting Min do so. and Min doesn't have a plan either right now.

 

So the Light is completely without a plan, but if they delay any longer the DO will be unstoppable, or the world will crumble to dust and death, with all the food stores destroyed. Rand can only keep so much food fresh at a time. And it is impossible to fix the bore as long as the seals remain in place, that is what Egwene doesn't understand. Even if Rand could put the new barrier over it (whatever it might be) it would create weak points and faults in the barrier that the DO could use to escape. You do not try to build a concrete wall with bamboo in the middle of it, the concrete can be as strong as you like, the bamboo creates massive weakspots. And that seems to be what the currently in place seals would do,

[AvroChris]

Because the people in the books don't know as much as we do.

[Finnssss22]

Comparisons of the Third Age to the Second Age are inapt. Prior to the drilling of the bore, the people of the Age of Legends had an advanced civilization both socially and technologically. They enjoyed peace and prosperity. They literally had people getting in circles and singing (True Aiel and the Nym). Poverty, famine, disease had all been near conquered. Men and women had been working the One Power together for centuries without knowing the Dark One. There were no such things as darkfriends, dreadlords, shadowspawn, or the Forsaken. Those with power truly cared for those without. Basically, when the Bore was originally drilled, the world had a long, long way to fall before it was ripe for the Dark One.

 

In the Third Age, people starve. War ravages various parts of the land. People are mistrustful of outsiders. The rulers have formed a separate class that may or may not care about the ruled depending on where you live. Progress in the One Power is stunted because of the Breaking and the lack of male channelers. The world is constantly under pressure from the Shadow, with the northern lands constantly beating back shadowspawn and darkfriends permeating the southern lands. Several civilizations have risen and fallen in the time since the Breaking. Recently, the Dark One's influence has slowly grown. Breaking the seals would give him full influence over a world that is already decaying. His victory is so much closer. The worry over breaking the seals is rooted in these facts. The people of the Third Age are far closer to falling over the precipice than the people of the Second Age were at the time of the drilling.

 

Most of your facts are sound but I think your conclusion is mistaken.

One of the biggest reasons the War of the Shadow went on for around 100 years was because when the bore was first opened, the people of the world were not prepared for it.

Hell, the War of the Shadow/Power didn't even begin for a while after the drilling of the bore.

Like you mentioned, they didn't know War or strife and the Shadow covered most of the land very quickly with little resistance in the beginning because of it.

It took a while before the Forces of the Light even figured out how to fight and by that time the Shadow had them all but backed into a corner as it were and had to fight their way out of that corner.

The people today are under no illusions about the Shadow, they know how to fight and for the most part are already prepared to do so.

 

In the end though, the biggest thing pointing to the Breaking of the Seals early being good for the Light and bad for the Shadow is the murder of Herid Fel.

[Avalonjohn44]

Was the bore sealed improperly? I might be totally wrong (and I might be repeating somebody else's theory, there are so many I can't even keep track), but I thought the 100 companions, all men, sealed it? We know that the greatest acts of the one power all were only achieved by men and women working together. Since the bore was only sealed by men that to me seems why it is growing and and the seals weakening... LTT seems to know this, he's been muttering to break the seals since LOC when Taim gives Rand the seal he found. I always thought the two CK would be used to seal it, but now looks like Callandor weilded by Rand and 'Insert Female Here' will be used to seal it.

[MasterAblar]

Was the bore sealed improperly? I might be totally wrong (and I might be repeating somebody else's theory, there are so many I can't even keep track), but I thought the 100 companions, all men, sealed it? We know that the greatest acts of the one power all were only achieved by men and women working together. Since the bore was only sealed by men that to me seems why it is growing and and the seals weakening... LTT seems to know this, he's been muttering to break the seals since LOC when Taim gives Rand the seal he found. I always thought the two CK would be used to seal it, but now looks like Callandor weilded by Rand and 'Insert Female Here' will be used to seal it.

 

Well 3000 years is pretty good, but yes it does seem as though it's because only men were there to seal the DO away that the seals are imperfect. It seems to me that LTT was going in the right direction with his plan, but there were imperfections, and Rand means to fiw those imperfections. Rand believes that men and women must seal it together, but that's not all, there's something else, a missing element, and that's presumably what Min is looking for. The CK wouldn't work, LTT said that strength alone is not enough. If Callandor is used, the quality that makes it necessary is unlikely to be the power it gives. The flaw in Callandor might be what makes it special.

[Durinax]

Was the bore sealed improperly? I might be totally wrong (and I might be repeating somebody else's theory, there are so many I can't even keep track), but I thought the 100 companions, all men, sealed it? We know that the greatest acts of the one power all were only achieved by men and women working together. Since the bore was only sealed by men that to me seems why it is growing and and the seals weakening... LTT seems to know this, he's been muttering to break the seals since LOC when Taim gives Rand the seal he found. I always thought the two CK would be used to seal it, but now looks like Callandor weilded by Rand and 'Insert Female Here' will be used to seal it.

 

Well 3000 years is pretty good, but yes it does seem as though it's because only men were there to seal the DO away that the seals are imperfect. It seems to me that LTT was going in the right direction with his plan, but there were imperfections, and Rand means to fiw those imperfections. Rand believes that men and women must seal it together, but that's not all, there's something else, a missing element, and that's presumably what Min is looking for. The CK wouldn't work, LTT said that strength alone is not enough. If Callandor is used, the quality that makes it necessary is unlikely to be the power it gives. The flaw in Callandor might be what makes it special.

maybe the flaw allows for saidar and saidin to be melded more closely in a circle...

 

but as for what everony freaks out over rands idea, everyone assumes the DO is instantly free once the seals are broken, they are completely wrong of course but this is a seemingly feudal time (to me at least)

[Dream]

I don't think everyone assumes the DO is instantly free once the seals are broken. I do think it's a safe assumption that, if the seals were removed, lots and lots of people would start dying. Or maybe it would be more accurate to say the rate of people dying would dramatically increase. That's not what people generally want.