Why is balefire bad?

[GrandpaG]

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/47394-up-there/page__view__findpost__p__1749449

 

The post above this one will help you understand who Bahbee is. Or, go back to earlier posts.

 

Since the Wheel is responsible for everything that has been created, does that include balefire? Does the Wheel have a death wish? Or is balefire a product of the One Power that the Wheel has no control over? Remember that balefire permanently removes a thread from the Pattern so it is absent when the next revolution of the Wheel occurs.

 

This is one of my favorite posts so far. Especially the paragraphs that are not italicized. I hope that you enjoy it.

 

Love,

Gramps

[OptimusPrime]

Balefire doesnt permanently remove a thread. The thread can still be reborn.

 

Balefire can be used as a corrective device if used by the right person. For example look at when Rahvin killed Mat; by that time we have already heard several times just how important Mat and Perrin are. Balefire brought him back from a death from which there would otherwise have been no return.

 

Im not sure what the relevence of the other topic is??

[Erunion]

Balefire does not permanently remove the thread. It is not a permadeath spell. [Removed. Spoilers].

Balefire removes a thread retroactively. It's like lighting the wick on the candle, and watching that candle burn 'backwards', whereas every other death is just using scissors to stop the thread from getting longer.

[Evoke]

Nothing really. I always thought a little unraveling of the pattern was a good thing. Gives it a little character.

[GrandpaG]

I understood that both sides quit using balefire in the war at the end of the Age of Legends because they thought that they were permanently destroying the Pattern each time that a thread was burned out.

[OptimusPrime]

I understood that both sides quit using balefire in the war at the end of the Age of Legends because they thought that they were permanently destroying the Pattern each time that a thread was burned out.

 

No it was because they used it on such a level that entire cities ceased to exist. The Dark One might have enjoyed it, and Ishamael if he was about, but the other channelers whether Light or Dark wouldnt necessarily have seen it the same.

[GrandpaG]

My feeble old brain is telling me that Moraine tried to convince Rand that using balefire was very bad. Cadsuane, too. I don't remember quotes well, but the concept somehow stuck. Maybe my wires got crossed.

[icspots]

Yes Moiraine and Cadsuane both tried to convince Rand of why it was bad. Moiraine in Rhuidean during TSR after Rand killed the darkhounds. She pretty much calmly explained why it could be bad and in a way that Rand actually stopped and thought about for a second and seemed to consider in the future. Cadsuane's approach was slightly different. During the escape from the bubble of evil in the rebel camp in Cairhienas she stomped up, slapped him as hard as she could and said something to the effect of "Never Balefire!!!".

 

A little localised balefire doesn't really seem to be a bad thing. The problem during the AoL was that so many people were being killed at once (whole cities) that it threatened to destroy the pattern. We witnessed the bending of reality in tGS when rand used balefire in conjunction with the Choedan Kal and that was just a single building.

[Erunion]

Balefire destabilizes the pattern, the more the balefire, the greater the damage to the pattern. Balefire at the level used in the War of Power nearly destroyed all of existence as the pattern became greatly destabilized.

People didn't want existence destroyed (except Ishy and Dark One, ofc), so they stopped balefiring other people.

[The Fisher King]

You know, I get why some folks here see ''benefits'' of Balefire when it is used very briefly and quickly - Mat's life, for example, has been saved TWICE due to it (once in the Stone and once from Darkhounds.

 

HOWEVER, Moiraine Sedai clearly explains the dangers in...FOH (I think). Every single time it is used it burns another little hole in the Pattern and with the Age Lace already unwravelling at an alarming pace with the Last Battle looming...well...I'm sure you see where Im going with this (and, more importantly, the point Moiraine was trying desperately to stress to Rand).

 

 

 

- Fish

[Sleeper]

A little bit of balefire's good for ya, builds the immune system.

[mb]

Long ago I speculated that all True Source weaves were created by the Creator before the start of the cycle.

 

If that is so, then balefire would not be completely bad since the Creator is good.

 

Of course balefire has dangers, yet all weaves might have some kind of danger.

[Goramier]

Balefire is bad?

 

Balefire is to Randland what nuclear weapons are to the world today. Can we live without nukes? Sure we can and we would be a heck of a lot better off but reality is that it has been put upon the world and will never be unmade. Thus, the world now actually depends on nukes. That is why we have so much conflict in the middle east. The world is posturing for nukes, more nukes, less nukes, nuke energy, etc... The world is now entirely leashed by nuclear technology and there will never be a day where it no longer exists.

 

Now lets compare that to balefire. Balefire is a nuclear bomb. Rather then a nuclear winter, we have "patterns" being affected. In other words, if some ones thread is wiped out, then you might not be born. It depends on how strong the balefire is, as to how far out of the pattern that life is scoured. That is just one aspect.

 

The aspect is the sheer destruction. As mentioned, cities got taken out like a hot knife through butter. For the good people - well, that aint good. For the bad people, well, there won't be any one left to torture or rule over. If your evil for the sake of evil then it may be a totally sweet deal but at the end of the day most people go to the dark to rule over others, have money and power and the like and you don't get any of that when there isn't anything left.

 

The total destruction that could be reaped by such power caused both sides to make a decision to never use it. Then comes along Rand, the fake from dual creek. He uses and has been using it like nothing. Moraine was upset about it but has since been out of the picture. So why is it bad? Its not. As I said, we depend on it now. Once the world discovered it, it can never go back. With that said it is absolute evil incarnate. I know what Moraine was thinking (had she not been a character in a story)...she was like, oh snap, if Rand uses that...then Samual will use it, then Lanfear will use it, then... and before we know it...put some marshmellows on a stick and make some smores cause the world is a burning!

 

So there in lays the worlds most powerful, most needed, most deadly and potentially what kills us all - problem. We can no longer live without it and we might at the end of the day, find out that we couldn't live with it either. That is why it is bad. Plus Bella hates that crap.

[Jimvzyl]

I would say no - balefire itself is neither "bad" or as "disastrous as people suppose.

It was used extensively in the AoL - and its repercussions were devastating, destroying innumberable people and shifting the weaves of everyone else in response.

 

I would think that Moiraines fear of balefire and its "banned" nature in the current Randland simply extends from a fear of its use from the stories told of it during the AoL.

We have no proof that balefire "unwraps" the pattern or is even capable of completely destroying the pattern. . We only know that it burns threads backwards depending on the power behind the attack - enough power makes the pattern "lurch" so to speak. The rational fear leads to over-exaggerated fears of its use. (eg: Reasonable Fear: Nuclear Winter will occur if we nuke each other egads! Truth: Over 1400 (if i recall) nuclear weapons have been detonated at various places at various times across the globe).

 

This idea sort of comes through the unrestrained use of balefire in later books, and Rands dismissal of its dangers. (Even though he might just be ignorant).

 

It just goes back to my belief that the only way that the Shadow can destroy the pattern is to either turn or use Rand as an incredibly powerful Ta'veren (using the patterns own powerful force of Ta'vereness) channeling the True Power (the antithesis of the Source) in such a way as to implode the pattern in on itself. This relates to why killing Rand is not necessarily the Dark Ones goal. The complete destruction of the pattern needs to be almost unattainable or else the entire point of the Dark Ones imprisonment is moot. How stupid would it be to mess around with a Dragon through innumerable ages when you can get a nice insane person to destroy the pattern for you. If people could just balefire the pattern out of existence at a whim - then, although long and arduous work it might be.. Moridin could just walk around the world balefiring everything in sight until the pattern unravels.

[Taura-Tierno]

I would say no - balefire itself is neither "bad" or as "disastrous as people suppose.

It was used extensively in the AoL - and its repercussions were devastating, destroying innumberable people and shifting the weaves of everyone else in response.

 

I would think that Moiraines fear of balefire and its "banned" nature in the current Randland simply extends from a fear of its use from the stories told of it during the AoL.

We have no proof that balefire "unwraps" the pattern or is even capable of completely destroying the pattern. . We only know that it burns threads backwards depending on the power behind the attack - enough power makes the pattern "lurch" so to speak. The rational fear leads to over-exaggerated fears of its use. (eg: Reasonable Fear: Nuclear Winter will occur if we nuke each other egads! Truth: Over 1400 (if i recall) nuclear weapons have been detonated at various places at various times across the globe).

 

This idea sort of comes through the unrestrained use of balefire in later books, and Rands dismissal of its dangers. (Even though he might just be ignorant).

 

It just goes back to my belief that the only way that the Shadow can destroy the pattern is to either turn or use Rand as an incredibly powerful Ta'veren (using the patterns own powerful force of Ta'vereness) channeling the True Power (the antithesis of the Source) in such a way as to implode the pattern in on itself. This relates to why killing Rand is not necessarily the Dark Ones goal. The complete destruction of the pattern needs to be almost unattainable or else the entire point of the Dark Ones imprisonment is moot. How stupid would it be to mess around with a Dragon through innumerable ages when you can get a nice insane person to destroy the pattern for you. If people could just balefire the pattern out of existence at a whim - then, although long and arduous work it might be.. Moridin could just walk around the world balefiring everything in sight until the pattern unravels.

 

We know that the Forsaken fear balefire.

 

Demandred hesitated. A bead of sweat slid half an inch on his cheek; it seemed to take an hour. For a year during the War of Power, both sides had used balefire. Until they learned the consequences. Without agreement, or truce—there had never been a truce any more than there had been quarter—each side simply stopped. Entire cities died in balefire that year, hundreds of thousands .of threads burned from the Pattern; reality itself almost unraveled, world and universe evaporating like mist. If balefire was unleashed once more, there might be no world to rule.

 

If the world is ended by balefire, there's no world for the Forsaken to rule under the DO. It's not just Moiraine's and the current Aes Sedais' irrational fear we're talking about.

[GrandpaG]

Wow!

 

Some GREAT comments! Thanks!

 

 

When the next revolution of the Wheel gets to the Third Age again, will Rahvin be spun into the Pattern or is his thread gone forever?

 

The post that I have the link to in the opening of this thread was meant to show the importance of each and every thread to the Pattern. Maybe I didn't quite hit the mark. If the Pattern only existed of "good" threads all running parallel to each other then the Pattern would lack strength. The "bad" threads interwoven at a ninety degree angle in equal numbers give the Pattern it's design and strength. Remove any of the intended threads and the Pattern suffers. Don't step on that lowly snail. It has a purpose.

[Erunion]

But what if that Snail's purpose is to be stepped on, prompting you to thought about the existence of the world and the pattern, causing you to go and do something that saves the world.

If you hadn't stepped on that snail... Well. Let's not go there.

 

Yes, when the second age (The AOL) comes around again, Rahvin will likely be reborn. His soul's not destroyed, it was simply killed earlier, and as the Dark One has to catch the soul at the time of death in order to give it a new body, the Dark One could not catch Rahvin as he was dead before even the Dark One could do something about it.

 

So right now, Rahvin is sitting in the afterlife (RJ said that there was one, but didn't specify what it was like), waiting to be reborn. And really doing a facepalm over the whole 'Make the Dragon Angry' thing.

[DocBean]

I look at balefire like little burns in the fabric.

 

The Wheel keeps spinning, and as a burn happens some of the threads shift because there is a hole giving it space to move.

Much like a real fabric. Put a hole in it and other threads move around, put enough holes in it, and it falls apart.

 

Stop using it for a while and the fabric straightens back out as the new threads are woven.

 

 

 

So when you use a lot of balefire things move around.

 

Rooms, and entire levels of buildings shift about, hallways get screwed up. - We've seen this all over Randland in multiple buildings.

 

Patches of ground swap with other patches - Blight near Perrin, and the little odd village.

 

 

If your thread is shifted you might find yourself plopped down in an ocean.

Say you're hanging out with your band of Trollocs. Trying to gather in mass....yadda yadda yadda, just going about your business..

All of a sudden, Bam! now you're right next to a bunch of Seanchan! Crap, time to kill or be killed!

 

Not good for anyone - don't use balefire.

[GrandpaG]

 

 

So right now, Rahvin is sitting in the afterlife (RJ said that there was one, but didn't specify what it was like), waiting to be reborn.

 

 

 

 

Read this post to find out where Randland people go when they awaken from their dream:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/43624-the-way-of-the-leaf-a-tinkers-song/page__view__findpost__p__1362289

 

ENJOY!

 

Love,

Gramps

[Erunion]

@DocBean - Exactly how I imagine Balefire, with the stronger BF burning the thread in both directions, causing the known and loved temporal effect.

[Jimvzyl]

If the world is ended by balefire, there's no world for the Forsaken to rule under the DO. It's not just Moiraine's and the current Aes Sedais' irrational fear we're talking about.

 

 

 

Moridin isnt out to rule the world. He sees the destruction of the pattern as inevitable. He runs on logic. Why does'nt he balefire everything and everyone until the pattern unravels.

Ye the other Forsaken believe that there will be a world to rule... but are we not at the point of believing that they are obviously duped?

 

Or are we assuming that although the DO exists outside of the pattern - a balefired pattern still would not release him?

Demandred hesitated. A bead of sweat slid half an inch on his cheek; it seemed to take an hour. For a year during the War of Power, both sides had used balefire. Until they learned the consequences. Without agreement, or truce—there had never been a truce any more than there had been quarter—each side simply stopped. Entire cities died in balefire that year, hundreds of thousands .of threads burned from the Pattern; reality itself almost unraveled, world and universe evaporating like mist. If balefire was unleashed once more, there might be no world to rule.

 

Your post and this quote lead me to believe that you see the DO as a very LOTR-like DO - who wishes to cover the land in darkness and rule.

I don't think that is the case in WOT. The DO seeks to unmake that which the creator made. He wants to destroy the pattern. Without a pattern, there is no reality- so in essence- the DO doesnt want a world to rule- he just promised silly malleable humans a world to rule if they served him.

 

So its ok for Demandred to be afraid of balefire. He's silly enough to believe hes going to rule a world...

Moridin knows better...

[DocBean]

Your post and this quote lead me to believe that you see the DO as a very LOTR-like DO - who wishes to cover the land in darkness and rule.

I don't think that is the case in WOT. The DO seeks to unmake that which the creator made. He wants to destroy the pattern. Without a pattern, there is no reality- so in essence- the DO doesnt want a world to rule- he just promised silly malleable humans a world to rule if they served him.

 

So its ok for Demandred to be afraid of balefire. He's silly enough to believe hes going to rule a world...

Moridin knows better...

 

 

The Dark One just wants to die.

Rand is the only one that can kill him.

The Dark One just hasn't figured out a way to push Rand far enough to do the deed.

 

It's a good thing too. We won't have a 1st Age if there isn't a dark One to be freed.

....unless.... enter Fain.