The voice Moridin heard

[OptimusPrime]

So. Graendal met with Moridin and for a brief moment Moridin cocked his head as if listening to something. Graendal assumed it was direct communication from the Dark One.

 

What do YOU think was going on? Cast your vote! Let your voice be heard! (no pun intended)

 

Personally I think it was "Lews Therin" as in the construct. I think Rand passed it on to Moridin during VoG. This would be the second time Graendal has observed Moridin show Rand qualities, although she didnt make the connection this time. But the way Moridin cocked his head, to me, looked a heck of a lot like what Rand used to do back in the day, and add to that the fact that Graendal ASSUMED it was direct contact from the Dark One, and she doesnt know Rand and Moridin are connected... I came to the conclusion that Moridin is now hearing "Lews Therin" as of VoG.

 

I tried to cover all options with the poll, so elaboration would be appreciated!

[Callern]

I guess if this is true, why would it be? What is the reason for this to happen?

That Rand could hear Lews Therins voice, was because of the madness, wasn't it?

Eventually, Rand reach a climax, and they mold/merge(?) together, LT and Rand that is.

 

What would happen to Moridin?

[yoniy0]

I just don't see it. Moridin was furious with Graendal, and he wasn't going to be fooled by her play. Then she tells her fabricated story (exactly what he expected her to do), he looks to the side, and then says he's been told to aford her some lenience. Who other than the DO could it really be?

[OptimusPrime]

I guess if this is true, why would it be? What is the reason for this to happen?

That Rand could hear Lews Therins voice, was because of the madness, wasn't it?

Eventually, Rand reach a climax, and they mold/merge(?) together, LT and Rand that is.

 

What would happen to Moridin?

 

See, in VoG Rand was acting like Moridin, and "Lews Therin" still got through to him. Now Im not saying Moridin will turn back, just that he might learn something from the voice. Who knows? Judging by how loony Ishamaels logic SEEMS to be on the surface, but how calculating it is underneath, I wouldnt be surprised if Moridin thought of some new tactic to use against Rand from something the voice says. If indeed it was Lewis, of course

 

 

I just don't see it. Moridin was furious with Graendal, and he wasn't going to be fooled by her play. Then she tells her fabricated story (exactly what he expected her to do), he looks to the side, and then says he's been told to aford her some lenience. Who other than the DO could it really be?

 

When have we ever seen Moridin or the Dark One show leniance of all things? Remember in TGS before VoG when Moridin told Mesaana that Semirhage could rot? And now of all things hes showing leniance to Graendal? Rand and Lews Therin both had a weakness for women. I find the timing of it very odd. If that was Lews Therin whispering to Moridin, whispering about showing her some leniance, I think it would make more sense than if it was the Dark One. Leniance would be very out of character for Shai'tan I think.

 

Of course I could be wrong. I just think assumptions are dangerous territory for these characters when they dont know all the facts. For example if Graendal knew Rand and Moridin were connected, and also knew that Rand heard a voice in his head, how long would it take her to wonder if Moridin was hearing one as well?

[yoniy0]

For the DO this needn't be about lenience. He still wants to use her, and after all, what did she do? She acted in exactly the way he would expect her to. As long as she's kept scared enough not to harm his really useful tools (such as Moridin himself), why should he want to eliminate her?

[OptimusPrime]

For the DO this needn't be about lenience. He still wants to use her, and after all, what did she do? She acted in exactly the way he would expect her to. As long as she's kept scared enough not to harm his really useful tools (such as Moridin himself), why should he want to eliminate her?

 

Because no matter how skillful Moridin is he is only one man and the Dark One needs the other Chosen as well. Who else does the Dark One have that can build up hidden powerbases like the others? Graendal might as well have gone renegade. Yeah sure the Dark One inspires competition but its too late in the game for that kind of attutude. Graendal was responsible for the deaths of three Chosen, as well as who knows how many Darkfriends. From the Dark Ones PoV that could look like renegade action. For him to tell Moridin to show her leniance at a time like this seems out of character to me.

[yoniy0]

Graendal was responsible for the deaths of three Chosen

Not really. Mesaana was alive and kicking at the time. If you'll recall, the DO originally approved of Asmodean's death. It's only Aran'gar that's credited to Graendal's fault, and Graendal's tale could explain that. Moridin has had enough with her at that point, but someone told him to give her one more chance. Who but the DO could tell, not suggest, but tell Moridin to do that?

[OptimusPrime]

Graendal was responsible for the deaths of three Chosen

Not really. Mesaana was alive and kicking at the time. If you'll recall, the DO originally approved of Asmodean's death. It's only Aran'gar that's credited to Graendal's fault, and Graendal's tale could explain that. Moridin has had enough with her at that point, but someone told him to give her one more chance. Who but the DO could tell, not suggest, but tell Moridin to do that?

Lews Therin could get through to Rand when he was acting like Moridin, I see no reason why it couldnt happen the other way round if Moridin was acting like Rand. And when Moridin heard the voice he didnt look too much like he was hearing the booming voice of the Dark One. I'll try and find the quote

[Dream]

Although the potential for humour would be priceless, I don't think it's possible for Moridin to have the "LTT construct".

 

The LTT construct was never a separate entity from Rand. It WAS Rand. In order for Moridin to have the LTT construct, he would have to have a part of Rand's (previous) psyche. So you'd have a part of Moridin, thinking he was Rand, who in turn thinks he's not LTT.

 

 

 

I voted "Other". No doubt, the order came from the Dark One, but I think it was relayed through Shaidar Haran, who was standing in the room with Moridin and Graendal but was invisible and inaudible to Graendal.

 

My primary reason is because Moridin turned his head to look a nothing (I believe that is how it was written, rather than "cocked his head"). If the DO spoke directly to Moridin, I imagine the Voice would come from everywhere/inside the skull rather than a specific point in the room.

 

Also, Graendal mentioned that you'd have to travel to Shayol Ghul to speak directly to the DO. Even during the AoL (if I recall correctly). The DO's influence is growing, but he already has a direct agent that operates in the field. The Hand of the Dark, maybe also the Voice of the Dark now.

[Terez]

Well, technically Rand and Moridin very much share elements of the psyche, hence Rand's random philosophizing recently, which became noticeable back in COT. I'm sure it's been rather confusing for Moridin. But in this case, I think it's obvious enough that he's chatting with the Dark One. No real reason to assume that he can't, especially considering how much he uses the True Power. He was pretty much carrying around the essence of the Dark One when he fought Rand in TGH and TDR, but it was more pronounced in TDR (when he actually called on the darkness to aid him).

[Dream]

The random philosophising may have come from LTT, although I do agree Rand and Moridin seem to be converging. But we're going from personal tastes to a talking head.

 

The DO would be my second choice. It's possible Moridin was subconsciously looking towards Shayol Ghul while listening to the voice. I prefer to have a little bit of independence for my favourite Forsasken, though. And we now have Shaidar Haran for the DO on Earth scenario.

[Jon Paul]

Graendal's meeting with Ishamael took place at a time in the story before Rand went to Dragonmount. So it's possible that Ishy was hearing the voice of Lews Therin through the link whilst Rand was still insane. But I don't think the construct could exist on its own as it is a creation of Rand's.

[Terez]

The random philosophising may have come from LTT

Ah, but Rand observed that it did not:

 

Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffer­ing? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

 

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nod­ding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?

And then of course he went back to assuming that it was Lews Therin because he did not want to consider the alternative. But it was still clearly Moridin's influence.

[Morsker]

I don't think the construct theory is compatible with the construct being something "passed around". In the construct theory, LTT's personality and memories are still part of Rand's soul, always were, and always will be. They aren't transferable. The only thing "constructed" is the voice, which Rand uses both to deny the reality being LTT, and then to deny his own emotions by attributing them to LTT.

 

If we're thinking of LTT being transferable, that's more the "LTT is a ghost that possessed Rand" theory.

[jemron]

You left "Rand" out of the list. I think it was him accessing his link to Rand.

[OptimusPrime]

You left "Rand" out of the list. I think it was him accessing his link to Rand.

 

The other please specify option is there, you could vote for that if you hadnt already. Would you mind going into a bit more detail, do you mean Moridin was accessing his link to Rand during that meeting to Graendal? Not sure exactly what you were getting at.

 

Thanks for the responses everyone! I think its interesting that just less than half the votes so far are against direct communication with the Dark One. Of course, as Terez said Ishamael seemed to have part of the Dark One with him in TDR, but I find that odd that they might communicate mentally in ToM but not so in TDR. Ishamael seemed far further along the True Power shadowspawnery route in TDR than he does now as Moridin, if that makes sense.

[OptimusPrime]

I don't think the construct theory is compatible with the construct being something "passed around". In the construct theory, LTT's personality and memories are still part of Rand's soul, always were, and always will be. They aren't transferable. The only thing "constructed" is the voice, which Rand uses both to deny the reality being LTT, and then to deny his own emotions by attributing them to LTT.

 

If we're thinking of LTT being transferable, that's more the "LTT is a ghost that possessed Rand" theory.

 

See the thing is, I meant that the voice in the head was what was passed on, the reason for it doesnt really matter anymore. The voice itself was based on what Rand had learned about his past self, not necessarily accurate, but based on what he had HEARD about Lewis. As I said, as time passes the voice seems to get more and more sane. That I think wasnt the result of Rands madness making it make more sense, it was because Rand began to learn more of what he was like as Lews Therin while he was sane. Does that make sense? As time went on, Rand got to know his old self more and more, making the voice seem more rational. After all, only a brief period of Lews Therins 400 years were as a madman, the rest was as him in his prime. What Im getting at is that the voice isnt based solely on Lews Therin, it was based on Rands interpretation of the man, which is why over time it becomes less and less rambly and ends up giving him a reason to carry on. The voice in itself is a madness, not necessarily a part of Rand, but BASED on a part of him. And as Moridin and Rands threads merge or whatever, thats how I see it being passed on. If indeed it was Lews Therin, I would guess that Moridin would hear the voice as it was in TGS, not from how Moridin would think of the man.

 

Hope that makes sense lol. Anyway it could very well be that Im reading too much into it, I would cast the Dark One as my second vote, but I still think Moridin heard the voice Rand heard. Which was, just to clarify, never ever ever anything at all to do with Lews Therin directly, but rather Rands interpretation of the man based on what he had heard and not taking into account any of the good things Lews Therin might have done.

[jemron]

You left "Rand" out of the list. I think it was him accessing his link to Rand.

 

The other please specify option is there, you could vote for that if you hadnt already. Would you mind going into a bit more detail, do you mean Moridin was accessing his link to Rand during that meeting to Graendal? Not sure exactly what you were getting at.

 

Thanks for the responses everyone! I think its interesting that just less than half the votes so far are against direct communication with the Dark One. Of course, as Terez said Ishamael seemed to have part of the Dark One with him in TDR, but I find that odd that they might communicate mentally in ToM but not so in TDR. Ishamael seemed far further along the True Power shadowspawnery route in TDR than he does now as Moridin, if that makes sense.

 

Sorry, what I mean was, I just thought he was "sensing" Rand just as Rand, Perrin, or Mat sometimes sense each others' locations. Like, he was taking a mental break because he was distracted by something in his head. That something, IMO, was Rand. Don't know really why/how, just seems like that's what he was doing.

 

I like the theory that eventually, if you use the TP too much as Ishy did, you start to BECOME the DO. Maybe Ishy thought he was the DO in the first 3 books because he was becoming the DO. Maybe now, since he had to start anew in a fresh body, he has awhile to go before he can get to that point again.

[OptimusPrime]

You left "Rand" out of the list. I think it was him accessing his link to Rand.

 

The other please specify option is there, you could vote for that if you hadnt already. Would you mind going into a bit more detail, do you mean Moridin was accessing his link to Rand during that meeting to Graendal? Not sure exactly what you were getting at.

 

Thanks for the responses everyone! I think its interesting that just less than half the votes so far are against direct communication with the Dark One. Of course, as Terez said Ishamael seemed to have part of the Dark One with him in TDR, but I find that odd that they might communicate mentally in ToM but not so in TDR. Ishamael seemed far further along the True Power shadowspawnery route in TDR than he does now as Moridin, if that makes sense.

 

Sorry, what I mean was, I just thought he was "sensing" Rand just as Rand, Perrin, or Mat sometimes sense each others' locations. Like, he was taking a mental break because he was distracted by something in his head. That something, IMO, was Rand. Don't know really why/how, just seems like that's what he was doing.

 

 

Ah I see, so you're saying maybe Moridin was seeing Rands face in that scene or something. Nice, I forgot about them seeing each others faces!

 

I like the theory that eventually, if you use the TP too much as Ishy did, you start to BECOME the DO. Maybe Ishy thought he was the DO in the first 3 books because he was becoming the DO. Maybe now, since he had to start anew in a fresh body, he has awhile to go before he can get to that point again.

 

Hehe, I dont know if you've seen my posts about the True Power elsewhere, but one thing I think is that the Dark One can possess True Power users (after a certain level of usage like you said Jemron) and that Ba'alzamon might actually have been the Dark One possessing Ishamael, sometimes at least. Its easy to outrule a permanent possession otherwise Ishamael would have spoken with the booming voice early on, but here are two things Id like to point out. 1) In TDR Ishamael shrieks at the Dark One to aid him, could that mean he was asking him to take control of the body? 2) In ToM Graendal, when revealing to us her True Power access, thought to herself it had been a gift from MORIDIN, but then corrects herself to say that it was the Dark Ones gift, and she notes it would be "a bad idea to mistake those two" or words to that effect. Why would she make such a mistake, even for a brief moment? Somethings definitely up

 

I have a funny feeling that we may have had a Dark One PoV already-the Watcher.

[spoke]

I took it a little different. I remember sometime after Semirage revealed that Rand was hearing Lews Therin's voice, that from min's point of view was a little noticeable. It was in one of her first point-of-views in TGS where she wonders at Rand cocking his head and wondering if that is when he hears the voice.

 

Anyway, I think it is the link (for lack of a better word) between the two, and Moridin just cocked his head in the same mannerism that Rand would do when he listens to the voice in his own head. A similar would be when Moridin was observed flexing his hand (the one that Rand had just lost).

[Byzantine279]

The problem with that theory is that as of that point VoG had not happened yet in that timeline, Drekka. In fact, we have not seen or heard from Moridin post VoG.

[Morsker]

The problem with that theory is that as of that point VoG had not happened yet in that timeline, Drekka. In fact, we have not seen or heard from Moridin post VoG.

Uh-oh. I hope Moridin hasn't crawled under a bed somewhere, muttering, "The Light, oh the terrible Light!" That would be such a letdown.

[FarShainMael]

I can't wait to see what VoG did do to him..

[Mr Ares]

The random philosophising may have come from LTT

Ah, but Rand observed that it did not:

Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffer­ing? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

 

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nod­ding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?

And then of course he went back to assuming that it was Lews Therin because he did not want to consider the alternative. But it was still clearly Moridin's influence.

I fail to see why it is "clearly" Moridin's influence. Moridin is a possibility, but not even the most likely one. Do we have any reason to believe that it was not Rand? No, not really. The view expressed by Rand is one that is not incompatible with Moridin's nihilism, but is a long way from supporting it.

[Terez]

The random philosophising may have come from LTT

Ah, but Rand observed that it did not:

Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffer­ing? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

 

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nod­ding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?

And then of course he went back to assuming that it was Lews Therin because he did not want to consider the alternative. But it was still clearly Moridin's influence.

I fail to see why it is "clearly" Moridin's influence. Moridin is a possibility, but not even the most likely one. Do we have any reason to believe that it was not Rand? No, not really.

You mean other than the fact that Rand himself said he would have never considered it? That should be enough for most people.