Egwene al'Vere = Latra Posae reborn

[randsc]

I don't know how acceptable she would be to all parties. Hell, I don't think she would be acceptable to the Hall of the Tower.

 

She certainly doesn't have any training or experience in running a war. Or even a skirmish. A couple of weeks camped around Tar Valon hardly counts.

 

Gods, can't you just imagine Egwene, sniffing and spluttering, refusing to listen to Mat, Perrin, Rhuarc, Ituralde, Bryne, Bashere and Anglemar, because they're men?

[capuga]

I don't know how acceptable she would be to all parties. Hell, I don't think she would be acceptable to the Hall of the Tower.

 

She certainly doesn't have any training or experience in running a war. Or even a skirmish. A couple of weeks camped around Tar Valon hardly counts.

 

Gods, can't you just imagine Egwene, sniffing and spluttering, refusing to listen to Mat, Perrin, Rhuarc, Ituralde, Bryne, Bashere and Anglemar, because they're men?

 

I'm no Egwene fan either so I hate when I have to defend her, but I will say that she left the war part of the seige pretty much up to Gareth. She listened to and trusted his judgement on military matters.

[Suttree]

I don't know how acceptable she would be to all parties. Hell, I don't think she would be acceptable to the Hall of the Tower.

 

She certainly doesn't have any training or experience in running a war. Or even a skirmish. A couple of weeks camped around Tar Valon hardly counts.

 

Gods, can't you just imagine Egwene, sniffing and spluttering, refusing to listen to Mat, Perrin, Rhuarc, Ituralde, Bryne, Bashere and Anglemar, because they're men?

 

Yeah because that is exactly what she did with Gareth Byrne

 

Edit: Damn it Grayson!

[randsc]

I don't know how acceptable she would be to all parties. Hell, I don't think she would be acceptable to the Hall of the Tower.

 

She certainly doesn't have any training or experience in running a war. Or even a skirmish. A couple of weeks camped around Tar Valon hardly counts.

 

Gods, can't you just imagine Egwene, sniffing and spluttering, refusing to listen to Mat, Perrin, Rhuarc, Ituralde, Bryne, Bashere and Anglemar, because they're men?

 

Yeah because that is exactly what she did with Gareth Byrne

 

Edit: Damn it Grayson!

 

My post was a reply to someone who posited that Egwene would be the logical choice to command the light-side defense. She isn't. She might be a logical unifying political figure (though I would dispute that, too) but she shouldn't be making the military decisions.

 

As for listening to Bryne, when he made the perfectly rational military decision to remain in contact with the commander of a substantial military force whose path parralleled his, she forbade him to do so.

 

Personally, I expect that it will be Mat who ends up in command of the Light-side forces.

[dwn]

My post was a reply to someone who posited that Egwene would be the logical choice to command the light-side defense. She isn't. She might be a logical unifying political figure (though I would dispute that, too) but she shouldn't be making the military decisions.

 

As for listening to Bryne, when he made the perfectly rational military decision to remain in contact with the commander of a substantial military force whose path parralleled his, she forbade him to do so.

 

Personally, I expect that it will be Mat who ends up in command of the Light-side forces.

 

I meant as a political leader, not a general; Rand hasn't been much of a military strategist himself. Put one of the monarchs in charge, the others will resent him. Put a general in charge, the monarchs won't feel bound to his decisions. Put a clan chief in charge, everyone else will have a fit.

 

The Amyrlin would likely be acceptable to all the monarchs--the Aes Sedai are generally seen as outside the mainstream politics of the nations. Egwene herself would likely be acceptable to the Aiel, since she's sympathetic to them and near enough a Wise One herself. Should Logain actually replace Taim, he'd also likely understand the political necessity of her leadership.

 

The Seanchan may not accept anyone but Tuon, but that still leaves two leaders rather than a dozen. The Sea Folk are also a bit of a wild card.

 

-- dwn

[dwn]

Regarding why Rand would intentionally antagonize Egwene...

 

Another possibility, one that's a bit more metaphysical, is that Rand wants to recreate the male-female divide that occurred with Latra Posae's Fateful Concord. Men and women acted in relative equality during the AoL but became divided due to the DO's impact on the world. That division, invigorated by the taint on saidin, permeated the entire third age. Following the logic that a scarred wound must be reopened before it can properly heal, the conflict must be brought to the foreground before the two sides can reconcile.

 

-- dwn

[Hopefire]

Regarding why Rand would intentionally antagonize Egwene...

 

Another possibility, one that's a bit more metaphysical, is that Rand wants to recreate the male-female divide that occurred with Latra Posae's Fateful Concord. Men and women acted in relative equality during the AoL but became divided due to the DO's impact on the world. That division, invigorated by the taint on saidin, permeated the entire third age. Following the logic that a scarred wound must be reopened before it can properly heal, the conflict must be brought to the foreground before the two sides can reconcile.

 

-- dwn

From a slightly more practical perspective, he may be looking to ensure that if the Pattern wants him to back off, if there's something amiss, the Pattern makes him aware of it. During the Age of Legends, the Pattern put him into a position where he was able to execute his plan, but not with the help of women like he intended. As a result, only one side of the One Power was tainted. I think that Rand is pretty sure of his plan and determined to see it through, but he's also giving the Pattern room to hint at what needs to happen.

 

It's sort of similar to how Verin ended up running into Mat in TGS. She eventually clued in that the Pattern wanted her in a specific place, and let the Pattern do its thing. I think that Rand is letting the Pattern do its thing, except on a larger level. It's why he knew he was safe to enter Tar Valon, it's why the armies of the world - including the peasant armies that should have had no way of organizing and making it to the FOM, given the time delay - are all gathering there.

 

 

 

 

In any case, I see Mat as the only person that can effectively lead the armies of the world. Not just from a practical perspective, that the Pattern has seen fit to make him the general he needs to be. At the end of the day, he's the only military commander that the world can agree on. Rand trusts him, and almost certainly is already planning to put Mat in charge.

 

Rhurc and Bashere can personally testify to Mat's skills, which will count for a lot among the Borderlanders and the other Aiel chiefs. Elayne should be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, especially with testimony from Rand, Birgitte, etc. Tuon has seen what he can do, and will support him - among other things, she'll recognize the political necessity of having Mat in charge, as she likely won't allow a non-Seanchan to command her troops and will understand that she's find it difficult to produce a different candidate of her own that the other nations will serve under. Really, the only faction in the world that seems likely to oppose Mat as commander is the White Tower.

 

Egwene might accept that Mat has come as far as any of the EF Five, that he's up to the task. Or she might not. It's hard to say. I'm guessing not, but it's a long time until I find out if I'm right or not.

[Barid Bel Medar]

i dont think Egwene is Latra reborn. I know there are striking similarities, but I htink she has a different purpose. Not just opposing Rand. she will definitely side with Rand in the end. Remember this is not a repeat of the AoL. The repeat of the AoL would be a whole turning of the Wheel away, 7 (or however many ages there are in each turning). The third age is only one turning of an age. If that makes much sense.

 

Anyway, I have a strong feeling that Egwene has been compulsed by Aran'gar. I agree with FSM on this.

 

I mean, her whole insistance on her being the Amyrlin Seat in tGS was a perfect example of compulsion. She would not back down, even if it cost her her life, which it nearly did. Considering it was Aran'gar and Mesaana's job to keep the two factions fighting, and taking into account Aran'gars little "massages" it stands to reason that s/he would not just give her little headaches.

 

I am not saying that Egwene is a pawn of the shadow now, like Graendals pets, but Aran'gar just placed a mild dose of compulsion on her mind, one that would forcce her to keep fighting against Elaida, keep her believing that she was the true Amyrlin until she died.

 

It was after Aran'gars little massages that Egwene becomes so insistant on her role as Amyrlin. It explains the strange contradictions we see in Egwene in tGS and ToM.

 

LoC, pre- Aran'gar we see Egwene tell Elayne and Nynaeve she needs people to act like friends, rather than bow and scrape to her calling her "mother" all the time. However, in ToM, she basically forces Nynaeve to bow and scrape to her even in private. Insisting Nynaeve aknowledge her as Amyrlin.

 

Also happens with Gawyn. She insists he aknwoledge her as Amyrlin, even in private. The man that she loves, she insists that he realises she is superior to him. I mean, if that doesnt have a ring of compulsion, i dont know what does.

 

No-one would know she was compulsed, as it is done with Saidin. There have been no male channelers in close contact with her bar Rand, and there is good reason why he would not tell her that she was being compulsed.

 

I mean, he is shielded, in the middle of the White Tower, surrounded by a bunch of Aes Sedai with no allies around. How would it go down, Rand, a man the Aes Sedai think is quite mad and dangerous, telling their perfect do-no-wrong hero Amyrlin (in their eyes, she is, I mean, look what she has done. ) that she is under compulsion.

 

1. I doubt they would believe him.

2. He has no real talent for healing, let alone unweaving compulsion, so he could do nothing about it.

3. It does not actually harm the Light per-se.

4. It would seriously undermine Egwene's leadership, something he doesnt want.

5. It would lead to distrust, and he would not be able to bargain with her as efficiantly.

 

So I am thinking that he will wait for the FoM to tell her about this compulsion where he is surrounded by allies, and has people who can actually heal her. Cue, Damer Flynn. I mean, he is the equivilant of Nynaeve really. He would be the perfect candidate.

[Suttree]

No-one would know she was compulsed, as it is done with Saidin. There have been no male channelers in close contact with her bar Rand, and there is good reason why he would not tell her that she was being compulsed.

 

I mean, he is shielded, in the middle of the White Tower, surrounded by a bunch of Aes Sedai with no allies around. How would it go down, Rand, a man the Aes Sedai think is quite mad and dangerous, telling their perfect do-no-wrong hero Amyrlin (in their eyes, she is, I mean, look what she has done. ) that she is under compulsion.

 

1. I doubt they would believe him.

2. He has no real talent for healing, let alone unweaving compulsion, so he could do nothing about it.

3. It does not actually harm the Light per-se.

4. It would seriously undermine Egwene's leadership, something he doesnt want.

5. It would lead to distrust, and he would not be able to bargain with her as efficiantly.

 

So I am thinking that he will wait for the FoM to tell her about this compulsion where he is surrounded by allies, and has people who can actually heal her. Cue, Damer Flynn. I mean, he is the equivilant of Nynaeve really. He would be the perfect candidate.

 

 

From what we know of Rand there isn't the slightest chance that he would think Egwene was under compulsion and not take action immediately. In addition what you are saying would completely undermine her entire character arc in TGS.

[Elan Tedronai]

One thing LPD should be credited for is actually coming up with the plan to build the kal. Since LTT had no other plan at the time, it could have been much worse. Imagine If the female aes sedai simply refused to go with LTT's plan without coming up with any sort of backup of their own. you would have a situation where saidin would have been tainted for good. since the current age do not have the tools to create objects of power on the scale of the kal.

 

It would have also been the best solution by using the kal to temporarily push back the shadow while coming up with a feasable plan to seal the bore without any backlash or risks of ripping upon the prison. Ofcourse the loss of the keys changed all that.

[Mr Ares]

Again, Rand didn't "turn a potential friend against his plan" as you stated that he did. Ta'veren do not have the ability to use the ta'veren influence to bend people to their will. Ta'veren are used by the Pattern to bend people to its will. If Egwene was required to act as she did by the needs of the Pattern (and she was, as is clear from the text) than she would have opposed Rand's plan even if he kissed her ring, called her Mother, and "submitted himself to the guidance of the Tower."

Ta'veren works on probabilities. If there was no chance of them being allied on this point, ta'veren wouldn't be necessary to make them opposed. Further, his own actions were in line with the ta'veren influence - he acted to push her away, as did the Pattern.

 

Well whether Rand has a fully fleshed plan or not is not certain. I would not say it is complete, not even by the end of ToM. But what matters here is what Egwene knows

And Egwene knows he doesn't have a plan because he as good as told her he didn't.

Why not go to the FoM like Darlin, wanting to discuss it, to understand why Rand wants to break the seals, instead of outright opposing him when she does not know if he knows something she does not?

She asked to discuss it. Rand turned her down.

 

If LPD's reasons for taking the course of action she did were wrong then she should not have taken it.

No, she should have taken it for different reasons. As for doing nothing meaning defeat, what does defeat mean? Does she believe doing nothing will result in an oppressive regime, or does she think it will result in the end of the world? If the former, non-action is bad, but action carries with it the possibility of universal death, and therefore there is good reason to oppose. There is still time. The Shadow can be overthrown later. It can't if LTT kills them all.

 

Not to mention the aes sedai might well try to take control of everything which Rand, though he has changed greatly doesn't seem ready to accept.

They can do that anyway. The Hall can oppose him anyway. All he did was turn a potential friend against his plan.

 

The fact that he tells her that he means to look for answers means that he isn't planning on doing this without a plan.

The fact that he doesn't yet have the answers means he doesn't yet have the information he needs to actually come up with a plan. As it is, we wants to break the seals. Fine. Then he knows saidar and saidin together need to be used. But he doesn't know how. So he can't plan what he is going to do, not until he has that information. So he as good as tells her he doesn't have a plan. She tells him they should plan, and he shrugs her off.

How can she say that he should be able implement his plan to reseal the DO and yet believe that he has absolutely no plan?

She thinks it should be possible to come up with a plan that doesn't involve breaking the seals. As yet, he has no plan either way.

 

It's pretty clear that Rand intended to antagonize Egwene--either by ta'veren-fu or by pushing her buttons--and that he intended her to gather forces to oppose him. So... why? The obvious answer is that he wanted someone to finish marshalling the Light's armies in preparation for the fallout of breaking the seals. Yet, I think it might go further than that.

I think it has to go further - I think Rand alone could have marshalled them, or with Egwene as an ally. Why does Rand want to be opposed? Why does the Pattern want him to be opposed? Egwene is a good choice for a political leader of the armies, if Rand won't take the job himself, but why can't she simply be given the job by Rand? Why not just ask her? I certainly think this needs more thought.

[MasterAblar]

Again, Rand didn't "turn a potential friend against his plan" as you stated that he did. Ta'veren do not have the ability to use the ta'veren influence to bend people to their will. Ta'veren are used by the Pattern to bend people to its will. If Egwene was required to act as she did by the needs of the Pattern (and she was, as is clear from the text) than she would have opposed Rand's plan even if he kissed her ring, called her Mother, and "submitted himself to the guidance of the Tower."

Ta'veren works on probabilities. If there was no chance of them being allied on this point, ta'veren wouldn't be necessary to make them opposed. Further, his own actions were in line with the ta'veren influence - he acted to push her away, as did the Pattern.

 

Well whether Rand has a fully fleshed plan or not is not certain. I would not say it is complete, not even by the end of ToM. But what matters here is what Egwene knows

And Egwene knows he doesn't have a plan because he as good as told her he didn't.

Why not go to the FoM like Darlin, wanting to discuss it, to understand why Rand wants to break the seals, instead of outright opposing him when she does not know if he knows something she does not?

She asked to discuss it. Rand turned her down.

 

If LPD's reasons for taking the course of action she did were wrong then she should not have taken it.

No, she should have taken it for different reasons. As for doing nothing meaning defeat, what does defeat mean? Does she believe doing nothing will result in an oppressive regime, or does she think it will result in the end of the world? If the former, non-action is bad, but action carries with it the possibility of universal death, and therefore there is good reason to oppose. There is still time. The Shadow can be overthrown later. It can't if LTT kills them all.

 

Not to mention the aes sedai might well try to take control of everything which Rand, though he has changed greatly doesn't seem ready to accept.

They can do that anyway. The Hall can oppose him anyway. All he did was turn a potential friend against his plan.

 

The fact that he tells her that he means to look for answers means that he isn't planning on doing this without a plan.

The fact that he doesn't yet have the answers means he doesn't yet have the information he needs to actually come up with a plan. As it is, we wants to break the seals. Fine. Then he knows saidar and saidin together need to be used. But he doesn't know how. So he can't plan what he is going to do, not until he has that information. So he as good as tells her he doesn't have a plan. She tells him they should plan, and he shrugs her off.

How can she say that he should be able implement his plan to reseal the DO and yet believe that he has absolutely no plan?

She thinks it should be possible to come up with a plan that doesn't involve breaking the seals. As yet, he has no plan either way.

 

It's pretty clear that Rand intended to antagonize Egwene--either by ta'veren-fu or by pushing her buttons--and that he intended her to gather forces to oppose him. So... why? The obvious answer is that he wanted someone to finish marshalling the Light's armies in preparation for the fallout of breaking the seals. Yet, I think it might go further than that.

I think it has to go further - I think Rand alone could have marshalled them, or with Egwene as an ally. Why does Rand want to be opposed? Why does the Pattern want him to be opposed? Egwene is a good choice for a political leader of the armies, if Rand won't take the job himself, but why can't she simply be given the job by Rand? Why not just ask her? I certainly think this needs more thought.

 

So he means to look for answers. There is no certainty that he will find them, but he very well might. If Egwene is opposing him because of his lack of a plan, would it not be better to wait until she knows if he has found his answers, or if he has failed, before making that decision? Egwene makes it pretty clear that she means to oppose him at the FoM and hopes Rand does not force her hand. No mention is made of whether he has found his answers or not.

Her saying they should plan refers to the breaking of the seals, which she considers insane, not the resealing of the bore, which she has never questioned Rand on.

 

She does not mention coming up with a plan in her meeting with Elayne and Nynaeve, only that it would be better to not break the seals. And if as you say she thinks it should be possible to come up with a plan that doesn't involve breaking the seals then that means she opposes the breaking of the seals, whether Rand has a plan or not.

Besides why would she never mention her biggest reason for opposing Rand to all those she tries to convince to do so as well. She tells the Wise ones that his words were madness as he said he was going to break the seals. She tells the same to Elayne and Nynaeve who then wonder about whether it is such a bad idea since they are already breaking apart, and it might as well be done when Rand chooses. Egwene then says that the breaking of the seals is crazy. When Darlin responds to her letter he says that the breaking of the seals is something that should be discussed. When Nynaeve questions Rand on why he wants to break the seals, she only mentions that it would release the DO. Nowhere is it mentioned that Rand does not have a plan, therefore Egwene can't be opposing him because he has no plan or she would have said so to those she tries to convince to oppose him. She does however constantly say that the breaking of the seals is insane.

 

Rand has constantly said that he does not have enough time so I think it's doubtful that he would have had enough time to gather up all the different armies. And the reaction of the aes sedai when he came to the white tower should be evidence to him that they are not about to work with him. I definitely think that he manipulated her into opposing him however and that it was not the pattern's doing.

[randsc]

While I mostly agree with you Master Ablar, I think the the reaction of the Aes Sedai when Rand came to the Tower is actually a point in favor of Mr Ares' argument. Those Sisters were unable to even summon the breath to oppose him; they would have done whatever he required.

[MasterAblar]

While I mostly agree with you Master Ablar, I think the the reaction of the Aes Sedai when Rand came to the Tower is actually a point in favor of Mr Ares' argument. Those Sisters were unable to even summon the breath to oppose him; they would have done whatever he required.

 

True, tavereen would probably have taken care of their opposition. I meant that they would not voluntarily work with him, because they don't trust him. I don't know if Rand would want to make everyone do what he wants them to through tavereen though. I don't think he was using tavereen on Egwene, because if he was, he might have been able to just make her do what he wanted her to. Which she probably would not appreciate.

[randsc]

See, I don't think you can "use ta'veren" like its Superman's laser vision or something. You can't turn it on and off, and it doesn't cause people to do what you want. It causes people to do what the Pattern requires.

 

I think it is clear that Egwene WAS under ta'veren influence. The dizziness she feels is exactly what Galad feels after being caught up in Perrin's ta'veren influence. I know Egwene THINKS she didn't feel ta'veren influence, because she was able to speak in opposition to Rand while the others weren't. But I think that just means that the Pattern required her opposition.

 

That's why, silly statements from certain chuckleheads notwithstanding, I don't actually dislike Egwene for opposing Rand's plan for the Seals. The Pattern required it of her (and besides, it is clear from Rand's POV at the end of the book that he WANTED her to act as she did).

 

I disike her for not coming up with a plan of her own. We as readers know that no such plan is necessary, because Rand's plan will prove correct. But Egwene has no way of knowing that, which is why I think it approaches criminal negligence for her to work to prevent Rand from implementing his plan without coming up with a plan of her own.

[Mr Ares]

So he means to look for answers. There is no certainty that he will find them, but he very well might. If Egwene is opposing him because of his lack of a plan, would it not be better to wait until she knows if he has found his answers, or if he has failed, before making that decision?

Wouldn't it be better to come up with a plan before breaking the seals?

Her saying they should plan refers to the breaking of the seals, which she considers insane, not the resealing of the bore, which she has never questioned Rand on.

So they are to make plans on the breaking of the seals, which she is categorically opposed to? Doesn't sound like much room for planning.

 

Rand has constantly said that he does not have enough time so I think it's doubtful that he would have had enough time to gather up all the different armies.

Just send a letter. Doesn't take that long.

I definitely think that he manipulated her into opposing him however and that it was not the pattern's doing.

It was both the ta'veren influence and Rand's own actions.

[MasterAblar]

So he means to look for answers. There is no certainty that he will find them, but he very well might. If Egwene is opposing him because of his lack of a plan, would it not be better to wait until she knows if he has found his answers, or if he has failed, before making that decision?

Wouldn't it be better to come up with a plan before breaking the seals?

Her saying they should plan refers to the breaking of the seals, which she considers insane, not the resealing of the bore, which she has never questioned Rand on.

So they are to make plans on the breaking of the seals, which she is categorically opposed to? Doesn't sound like much room for planning.

 

Rand has constantly said that he does not have enough time so I think it's doubtful that he would have had enough time to gather up all the different armies.

Just send a letter. Doesn't take that long.

I definitely think that he manipulated her into opposing him however and that it was not the pattern's doing.

It was both the ta'veren influence and Rand's own actions.

 

Of course it would be better to come up with a plan before breaking the seals. And if Egwene is opposing him because he does not have a plan, she should wait until meeting him at the FoM to see whether she should oppose him or not, based on whether he has come up with a plan or not. I don't believe this is why Egwene is opposing Rand anyway. I believe that she opposes the breaking of the seals, which she has constantly repeated.

 

Plan on what to do about the seals if you prefer, and about the Last Battle in general. Egwene clearly says before this that Rand cannot break the seals which is what he is answering her about. No mention of his plan to reseal the DO is made.

 

And what reason does he give in his letters to convince the various rulers to meet together. Rand has purposely hidden the true meaning of the meeting at the FoM and made Egwene think that he means to discuss the breaking of the seals.

 

There could be ta'veren influence in there, but I feel that Egwene is perfectly capable of acting as she is without that influence. Rand says he had planned on her gathering opposition, so I think that means that he believed that that is what she would probably do not that it was a certainty.

[Mr Ares]

Of course it would be better to come up with a plan before breaking the seals. And if Egwene is opposing him because he does not have a plan, she should wait until meeting him at the FoM to see whether she should oppose him or not, based on whether he has come up with a plan or not.

No, she should oppose him from that meeting until he has a plan.

 

Plan on what to do about the seals if you prefer, and about the Last Battle in general. Egwene clearly says before this that Rand cannot break the seals which is what he is answering her about. No mention of his plan to reseal the DO is made.

But there isn't much planning to be done about the seals. Just because she doesn't say "let's plan what we are to do about the Dark One" doesn't mean that isn't what she meant. Clearly, beating Shai'tan, sealing the Bore is what they were talking about - breaking the seals was a part of that.

 

And what reason does he give in his letters to convince the various rulers to meet together.

Talk about the Last Battle. Really, he had to gather some of them anyway (he found King Alsalam, not Egwene, and the Borderlanders were sitting in FM for him so she couldn't gather them), so it's no stretch to say he could get the rest with precious little effort if he wanted to.

 

There could be ta'veren influence in there, but I feel that Egwene is perfectly capable of acting as she is without that influence.

Of course, that's how ta'veren works. If it can't happen without ta'veren, it still can't happen with. Ta'veren changes probability, not possbility.

[randsc]

Except that it can act on probability to such an extent as to render the distinction meaningless.

 

If the needs of the Pattern required something that Egwene would NOT do, than something that was possible but unlikely would happen to Egwene. Like tripping over her hem, falling and breaking her neck.

[MasterAblar]

Of course it would be better to come up with a plan before breaking the seals. And if Egwene is opposing him because he does not have a plan, she should wait until meeting him at the FoM to see whether she should oppose him or not, based on whether he has come up with a plan or not.

No, she should oppose him from that meeting until he has a plan.

 

Plan on what to do about the seals if you prefer, and about the Last Battle in general. Egwene clearly says before this that Rand cannot break the seals which is what he is answering her about. No mention of his plan to reseal the DO is made.

But there isn't much planning to be done about the seals. Just because she doesn't say "let's plan what we are to do about the Dark One" doesn't mean that isn't what she meant. Clearly, beating Shai'tan, sealing the Bore is what they were talking about - breaking the seals was a part of that.

 

And what reason does he give in his letters to convince the various rulers to meet together.

Talk about the Last Battle. Really, he had to gather some of them anyway (he found King Alsalam, not Egwene, and the Borderlanders were sitting in FM for him so she couldn't gather them), so it's no stretch to say he could get the rest with precious little effort if he wanted to.

 

There could be ta'veren influence in there, but I feel that Egwene is perfectly capable of acting as she is without that influence.

Of course, that's how ta'veren works. If it can't happen without ta'veren, it still can't happen with. Ta'veren changes probability, not possbility.

 

Do you mean their first meeting or the meeting to come at the FoM? If it's the latter you are talking about, then I disagree as she has no way of knowing if he has figured out his plan or not, as he said he would. If it turns out that he has figured out his plan when they meet again, then she is going to feel pretty stupid in front of all the rulers that she convinced to help stop him, since it turns out there is no reason to oppose him after all. The rulers (particularly those of Illian and Tear) aren't going to like hearing that they have brought significant armies to the FoM for, as it turns out, no reason at all. There is no reason for her not to wait until she knows whether she must stop him or not. In other words, there is no reason for her to oppose him until she knows whether he means to break the seals without a plan or with a plan. It does not stop her from acting exactly the way she has. Of course this is all supposing that she is opposing him because he lacks a plan, which I don't believe is her reason for opposing him, for the simple reason that she never says this is why she opposes him to anyone. She simply opposes the breaking of the seals.

 

Right, so they are talking about the Last Battle as a whole, not just his plan to seal the bore. Besides there is plenty to talk about in regards to the seals. It's not just "should they be broken or not", it's "why should they be broken" which is sort of something that should be discussed before it is done. She was probably asking him right then to explain why he believes the seals should be broken, which he purposefully did not answer so that she would oppose him.

 

Except he is not meeting them to talk about the Last Battle, he is meeting them to, quite probably, talk about the dragon peace, his price for him to go to SG. And I hardly see anyone wanting to talk about world peace at the moment with the seanchan on their doorstep. Neither requires them to bring their armies either, although Rand might not have necessarily wanted that (though so many armies being there will probably turn out to be important. Having Egwene gather them all allows him to keep the true purpose of the meeting secret.

 

Well I meant that Egwene was likely to react this way, so ta'veren is not really necessary. Good old manipulation would work just fine (especially as the aes sedai would never expect someone to try and manipulate them).

[CoonDawg]

And Rand could have gotten Egwene to gather people without turning her against him - why does he want to be opposed?

 

That's the point, she's already against him. Since about book 4 she has been at constant odds with Rand. Not because some of his ideas were bad (and some certainly were), but because it isn't her way. I have never seen her listen to Rand's idea, actually consider it, then offer a counter. It's nothing but resistance. Either she sees him is a moron incapable of tying his own shoes, or she is like that really bad girlfriend that can't stand the idea you came up with something on your own.

 

If Egwene was against the seal break because she thought she had a better idea, I would be fine with that. However, all I've ever heard out of her mouth (and every other Aes Sedai) is the necessity to lead Rand "by the hand". (Pretty sure that exact wording has been used.)

[Mandro]

And Rand could have gotten Egwene to gather people without turning her against him - why does he want to be opposed?

 

That's the point, she's already against him. Since about book 4 she has been at constant odds with Rand. Not because some of his ideas were bad (and some certainly were), but because it isn't her way. I have never seen her listen to Rand's idea, actually consider it, then offer a counter. It's nothing but resistance. Either she sees him is a moron incapable of tying his own shoes, or she is like that really bad girlfriend that can't stand the idea you came up with something on your own.

 

If Egwene was against the seal break because she thought she had a better idea, I would be fine with that. However, all I've ever heard out of her mouth (and every other Aes Sedai) is the necessity to lead Rand "by the hand". (Pretty sure that exact wording has been used.)

 

And nose, and "guide the dragon to his destiny." Good job with that so far almighty Aes Sedai, you've worked wonders thus far.

[Mandro]

I don't know how acceptable she would be to all parties. Hell, I don't think she would be acceptable to the Hall of the Tower.

 

She certainly doesn't have any training or experience in running a war. Or even a skirmish. A couple of weeks camped around Tar Valon hardly counts.

 

Gods, can't you just imagine Egwene, sniffing and spluttering, refusing to listen to Mat, Perrin, Rhuarc, Ituralde, Bryne, Bashere and Anglemar, because they're men?

 

Also rand, or Logain. Rand, other than maybe mat, is likely the most experienced warrior in the lists, because of his reconstituted memories. Logain nearly conquered Ghealdan, and was already making plans to march on Tear. Then toss in Horror of Horrors *shiver* they are *shiver* Men who can *shiver* channel!

 

Her inherent hypocrisy in all things is why she is thoroughly worthy of disgust. In the first 5 books she was solid, and didn't hold it against rand that he could channel, but after she became Amyrlin *stamps foot* in salidar her reactions have been very nearly bigoted.

[edit: I just corrected a timeline thing, for some reason I said first 4 books, not first five before she was summoned to salidar.]

[CoonDawg]

And nose, and "guide the dragon to his destiny." Good job with that so far almighty Aes Sedai, you've worked wonders thus far.

 

Well, in a very round-about way, I suppose you could say they have. Stuffing him in a box, bonding him, driving him insane (Cadsuane in particular) DID make him into the psycho he was. If the Aes Sedai weren't so contradictory, he'd never have gone to Dragonmount, etc.

 

No doubt, in the history books, it will tell how the White Tower singlehandedly shaped the Dragon and saved the world. And it will all have gone according to plan. Including the whole "Swear fealty or die" part. Rand was just playing into their hands...

[Mandro]

I don't know how acceptable she would be to all parties. Hell, I don't think she would be acceptable to the Hall of the Tower.

 

She certainly doesn't have any training or experience in running a war. Or even a skirmish. A couple of weeks camped around Tar Valon hardly counts.

 

Gods, can't you just imagine Egwene, sniffing and spluttering, refusing to listen to Mat, Perrin, Rhuarc, Ituralde, Bryne, Bashere and Anglemar, because they're men?

 

I'm no Egwene fan either so I hate when I have to defend her, but I will say that she left the war part of the seige pretty much up to Gareth. She listened to and trusted his judgement on military matters.

 

Yeah, the seige part, which consists of collecting food, and not letting other people collecting food. He was ordered not attack servants of tower unless attacked, so, Yeah Egwene is the queen of Hurry UP and wait and always obey me! In fact thinking about it now, name one non political act that she engaged in with a possitive executive order? All of her orders (other than politicing and hypocricy (the oaths)and her own ego) were to the negative. While a lack of direct action is the best action at times, egwene is missing the other 34 chapters of clausewitz's book. I guess they were lost in the breaking.

 

[edit: I fixed a few typo's not all of them]