Egwene al'Vere = Latra Posae reborn

[Mandro]

I also havent seen any indication of female channelers (or any channelers aside from LTT for that matter) being reborn, just heroes of the horn.

Everyone is reborn. Only the Heroes are reborn for a specific purpose, though. Anyone else could be a great hero in one life, and a baker in the next, and so on. That said, there is absolutely nothing beyond the most superficial characteristics to say Elayne is Ilyena, Egwene is Latra Posae Decume, Valan Luca is that Aiel called Luca that appeared in a flashback, Mat and Tuon are Aemon and Eldrene, and any other crazy, crackpot, this-person-is-that-person-reborn theories that crop up that I didn't mention.

Logain is Guaire Amalasan!

 

When does he ever indicate that he does not have a plan? He told her he does not have all the answers yet but that's it.

That's what he told Egwene. This is what he said to Min:

 

He looked at her, and those unfathomable eyes seemed to draw her in. "I need you, Min."

 

"You have me. Stupid looby."

 

"Callandor," he said. "It plays a part in this. You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

"I will, Rand." A cold shiver ran through her. "I promise."

 

"I trust you."

That's his plan.

 

True it ends up being a very good thing that she opposed LTT on this. But that does not mean that she was right to do it.

Yes, it does. The plan was too dangerous for many obvious reasons. And there are many obvious reasons not to break the seals.

 

Maybe if she had anything constructive rather than criticism the plan would have been modified so that it became successful?

 

But that''s okay, the women are pristine and can live in their ivory tower.

[Suttree]

She was hiding in her closet, waiting for the Dark One to come and take her.

 

With a nickname like 'Shadar Nor' somehow I highly doubt that...

[Terez]

Maybe if she had anything constructive rather than criticism the plan would have been modified so that it became successful?

What makes you think she did not? In any case, Lews Therin's plan relied on touching something to the Dark One, which is what allowed him to taint saidin. There was no way to modify it to avoid that, and if there was, Lews Therin was just as capable of coming up with it as Latra Posae.

 

But that''s okay, the women are pristine and can live in their ivory tower.

Let's not bring your own sexism into it....

[b3arz3rg3r]

I also havent seen any indication of female channelers (or any channelers aside from LTT for that matter) being reborn, just heroes of the horn.

Everyone is reborn. Only the Heroes are reborn for a specific purpose, though. Anyone else could be a great hero in one life, and a baker in the next, and so on. That said, there is absolutely nothing beyond the most superficial characteristics to say Elayne is Ilyena, Egwene is Latra Posae Decume, Valan Luca is that Aiel called Luca that appeared in a flashback, Mat and Tuon are Aemon and Eldrene, and any other crazy, crackpot, this-person-is-that-person-reborn theories that crop up that I didn't mention.

Logain is Guaire Amalasan!

 

When does he ever indicate that he does not have a plan? He told her he does not have all the answers yet but that's it.

That's what he told Egwene. This is what he said to Min:

 

He looked at her, and those unfathomable eyes seemed to draw her in. "I need you, Min."

 

"You have me. Stupid looby."

 

"Callandor," he said. "It plays a part in this. You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

"I will, Rand." A cold shiver ran through her. "I promise."

 

"I trust you."

That's his plan.

 

True it ends up being a very good thing that she opposed LTT on this. But that does not mean that she was right to do it.

Yes, it does. The plan was too dangerous for many obvious reasons. And there are many obvious reasons not to break the seals.

 

LTT's plan may have been too dangerous, but it was the best solution anyone had at the time. It gave them 3,000 years of reprieve and the Breaking was a small price to pay if the alternative was the victory of the DO.

 

Rand's plan being so sketchy is the reason why he's waiting a month to break the seals, he's giving himself and Min that time to find something to fill in the blanks. Besides he only even told Egwene about it knowing she would gather everyone so he could adress them to dictate his terms. As far as defeating the DO is concerned Egwene and the WT are unnecessary to him. He has the forces to get him to SG and he has the channelers he requires.

[Mr Ares]

When does he ever indicate that he does not have a plan? He told her he does not have all the answers yet but that's it.

That would be it. He says saidar and saidin must both be used, but then admits that he doesn't really know how. That's not a plan.

 

True it ends up being a very good thing that she opposed LTT on this. But that does not mean that she was right to do it.

Why not? Can one not do the right thing for the wrong reasons? Even assuming we accept her reasons were wrong, which I don't - she thought it was too dangerous, and she had a bit of a point. True, it wasn't as bad as she feared it might be, but that's rather beside the point. Her actions helped to save the world.

 

And in doing so stopped all the women channelers from going crazy. What a monster.

 

Because Latra knew beforehand that Saidin would be tainted, right?

No, but that's hardly relevant. LTT had a plan, whch she considered too dangerous, and opposed it on those grounds. By opposing it, she ended up creating a situation in which things were not as bad as they could have been. To be honest, I'm not really a fan of the line of reasoning the a bad plan should be mindlessly supported because it's the only one on the table. Opposing a bad plan can still be the right thing to do even if you don't have a better one of your own.

 

I also havent seen any indication of female channelers (or any channelers aside from LTT for that matter) being reborn, just heroes of the horn.

Everyone is reborn. Only the Heroes are reborn for a specific purpose, though. Anyone else could be a great hero in one life, and a baker in the next, and so on. That said, there is absolutely nothing beyond the most superficial characteristics to say Elayne is Ilyena, Egwene is Latra Posae Decume, Valan Luca is that Aiel called Luca that appeared in a flashback, Mat and Tuon are Aemon and Eldrene, and any other crazy, crackpot, this-person-is-that-person-reborn theories that crop up that I didn't mention.

Logain is Guaire Amalasan!

Of course! It all makes sense now!

 

 

True it ends up being a very good thing that she opposed LTT on this. But that does not mean that she was right to do it.

Yes, it does. The plan was too dangerous for many obvious reasons. And there are many obvious reasons not to break the seals.

LTT's plan may have been too dangerous, but it was the best solution anyone had at the time. It gave them 3,000 years of reprieve and the Breaking was a small price to pay if the alternative was the victory of the DO.

 

Rand's plan being so sketchy is the reason why he's waiting a month to break the seals, he's giving himself and Min that time to find something to fill in the blanks. Besides he only even told Egwene about it knowing she would gather everyone so he could adress them to dictate his terms. As far as defeating the DO is concerned Egwene and the WT are unnecessary to him. He has the forces to get him to SG and he has the channelers he requires.

Rand has made up a thirty day time limit - true, they can't wait forever, but they don't have to do things quite that quickly. Rand is trying to seize the initiative, but without any real plan and hoping he comes up with one against a self-imposed time limit. I can't see that as a good idea. And Rand could have gotten Egwene to gather people without turning her against him - why does he want to be opposed? And while the Breaking might be a small price to pay for stopping Shai'tan, that doesn't mean it wasn't right of LPD to oppose LTT, as it meant that the price paid wasn't as high as it had to be. LTT was right to act - without it, all was lost. LPD was right to oppose - without that, all is still lost.

[MasterAblar]

When does he ever indicate that he does not have a plan? He told her he does not have all the answers yet but that's it.

That would be it. He says saidar and saidin must both be used, but then admits that he doesn't really know how. That's not a plan.

 

True it ends up being a very good thing that she opposed LTT on this. But that does not mean that she was right to do it.

Why not? Can one not do the right thing for the wrong reasons? Even assuming we accept her reasons were wrong, which I don't - she thought it was too dangerous, and she had a bit of a point. True, it wasn't as bad as she feared it might be, but that's rather beside the point. Her actions helped to save the world.

 

And in doing so stopped all the women channelers from going crazy. What a monster.

 

Because Latra knew beforehand that Saidin would be tainted, right?

No, but that's hardly relevant. LTT had a plan, whch she considered too dangerous, and opposed it on those grounds. By opposing it, she ended up creating a situation in which things were not as bad as they could have been. To be honest, I'm not really a fan of the line of reasoning the a bad plan should be mindlessly supported because it's the only one on the table. Opposing a bad plan can still be the right thing to do even if you don't have a better one of your own.

 

I also havent seen any indication of female channelers (or any channelers aside from LTT for that matter) being reborn, just heroes of the horn.

Everyone is reborn. Only the Heroes are reborn for a specific purpose, though. Anyone else could be a great hero in one life, and a baker in the next, and so on. That said, there is absolutely nothing beyond the most superficial characteristics to say Elayne is Ilyena, Egwene is Latra Posae Decume, Valan Luca is that Aiel called Luca that appeared in a flashback, Mat and Tuon are Aemon and Eldrene, and any other crazy, crackpot, this-person-is-that-person-reborn theories that crop up that I didn't mention.

Logain is Guaire Amalasan!

Of course! It all makes sense now!

 

 

True it ends up being a very good thing that she opposed LTT on this. But that does not mean that she was right to do it.

Yes, it does. The plan was too dangerous for many obvious reasons. And there are many obvious reasons not to break the seals.

LTT's plan may have been too dangerous, but it was the best solution anyone had at the time. It gave them 3,000 years of reprieve and the Breaking was a small price to pay if the alternative was the victory of the DO.

 

Rand's plan being so sketchy is the reason why he's waiting a month to break the seals, he's giving himself and Min that time to find something to fill in the blanks. Besides he only even told Egwene about it knowing she would gather everyone so he could adress them to dictate his terms. As far as defeating the DO is concerned Egwene and the WT are unnecessary to him. He has the forces to get him to SG and he has the channelers he requires.

Rand has made up a thirty day time limit - true, they can't wait forever, but they don't have to do things quite that quickly. Rand is trying to seize the initiative, but without any real plan and hoping he comes up with one against a self-imposed time limit. I can't see that as a good idea. And Rand could have gotten Egwene to gather people without turning her against him - why does he want to be opposed? And while the Breaking might be a small price to pay for stopping Shai'tan, that doesn't mean it wasn't right of LPD to oppose LTT, as it meant that the price paid wasn't as high as it had to be. LTT was right to act - without it, all was lost. LPD was right to oppose - without that, all is still lost.

 

What Rand says exactly is:

 

"I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet"

 

So saidin and saidar being used is part of his plan but only part of it. He says "yet", so he means to get those answers. He gives Egwene 30 days. There is no reason, from Egwene's point of view to think that he will not have those answers by the time they meet again. After all what else could he need that time for but to get those answers? Whether he has those answers now is irrelevant since Egwene would not know.

 

Also Egwene says this to Rand just after:

 

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

 

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed."

 

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

So Egwene says breaking the seals is out of the question. Rand answers that is necessary though risky if the bore is to be sealed up. Egwene wants to talk about it (it being the breaking of the seals). Nowhere does Egwene or Rand bring up how the bore will be sealed up, probably because it is a given that it would be insane to do this without a plan. And I certainly believe that it would be a bad idea to break the seals without the slightest idea of how to seal up the bore.

 

Later on Egwene says to Nynaeve and Egwene:

 

"You should know that Rand is planning to break the remaining seals upon the Dark One's prison, and in doing so risk releasing him upon the world."

 

Elayne pursed her lips. "Well, there are only three seals left, and they're crumbling."

 

"So what if he is running that risk?" Nynaeve said. "The Dark One will be freed when the final seal crumbles; best if it happens when Rand is there to battle him."

 

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

 

There isn't any mention of opposing him because he does not have a plan to seal up the bore. Her opposition is solely based on her opinion that breaking the seals is a bad idea. In the last line I quoted she does not even seem to doubt Rand's ability to seal the bore or his knowledge of how to do it, just the necessity of breaking the seals to do it. In neither her letter to Darlin or her meeting with the wise ones does she say she opposes him because he has no plan. So it really does not seem to me as though she opposes him because he has no idea how to reseal the Dark One.

 

As far as LPD's opposition to LTT goes, I don't think accepting a bad plan because it is the only one on the table is a good idea either. However LTT's plan was not a recipe for disaster and certainly had a chance for success. It was certainly a risky plan, LTT said so himself, so it was not a point of contention. However, what bugs me is that at this point their back is up against the wall, and LTT's plan is the only plan they have. Doing nothing will hand the DO his victory and there is no time to come up with another plan (if they even could come up with another plan). Even if LPD thinks LTT's plan is risky, at this point it's the only one they have got left. If the bomb is about to explode and the only thing you can do is hope to cut the right wire, you take your chance. It's that or nothing. You don't want to be in that position but ignoring it and hoping for a miracle is not a viable option. Considering the risk that LPD was worried about was successfully evaded by LTT, it's impossible to say that she ended up being right. The taint was something completely unexpected that took everyone by surprise. The fact that her opposition allowed saidar to not be tainted is really just pure luck.

 

So in my opinion, thank god she opposed him, even if she was wrong to do so, considering the situation.

 

Also no offense, but I think that Rand should know better than you how quickly they need to act, and how much time they have left before it's too late. His self-imposed time limit is so they no longer stall.

As far as him using Egwene to gather everyone for him, well what is more likely: the aes sedai agreeing with him and helping him out, or them being completely opposed to him because of who he is and their opinion of him? Rand considers Egwene's opposition to be of no matter. He simply chose the fastest and easiest solution so that he could focus on other things.

 

Logain=Guaire: that would be awsome.

[Mandro]

I have said several times, the 3 becoming one, isn't about people, it's about the powers, saidar, saidin and the TP. I know, repetative, I'm sorry, but I do belive it.

[Elan Tedronai]

but wait a second. According to many people here, shaitan and his order not to kill rand is because they need him to break open the great lord's prison. Right? If that's the case then how could the dark one win anything in AOL, considering LTT never considered switching allegiences?

 

yes, the bad guys would overrun everything but it would have never led to a total shadow victory since their master is still locked up

[MasterAblar]

but wait a second. According to many people here, shaitan and his order not to kill rand is because they need him to break open the great lord's prison. Right? If that's the case then how could the dark one win anything in AOL, considering LTT never considered switching allegiences?

 

yes, the bad guys would overrun everything but it would have never led to a total shadow victory since their master is still locked up

 

I don't get it. Why do they need the dragon for the prison to be opened completely?

[Ananta]

but wait a second. According to many people here, shaitan and his order not to kill rand is because they need him to break open the great lord's prison. Right? If that's the case then how could the dark one win anything in AOL, considering LTT never considered switching allegiences?

 

yes, the bad guys would overrun everything but it would have never led to a total shadow victory since their master is still locked up

 

I don't get it. Why do they need the dragon for the prison to be opened completely?

They need Rand to turn to the shadow for some reason. Maybe it's because he's so strong ta'veren that it could have some special effects on the Pattern if he turns to the shadow... Dunno. Anyhow, for DO's victory to be absolute they need Dragon Reborn on their side.

[Elan Tedronai]

but wait a second. According to many people here, shaitan and his order not to kill rand is because they need him to break open the great lord's prison. Right? If that's the case then how could the dark one win anything in AOL, considering LTT never considered switching allegiences?

 

yes, the bad guys would overrun everything but it would have never led to a total shadow victory since their master is still locked up

 

I don't get it. Why do they need the dragon for the prison to be opened completely?

 

 

same question i have been asking on dragonmount forums for years. why did the dark one gave the order not to kill rand and this is the answer i get.

[Elan Tedronai]

but wait a second. According to many people here, shaitan and his order not to kill rand is because they need him to break open the great lord's prison. Right? If that's the case then how could the dark one win anything in AOL, considering LTT never considered switching allegiences?

 

yes, the bad guys would overrun everything but it would have never led to a total shadow victory since their master is still locked up

 

I don't get it. Why do they need the dragon for the prison to be opened completely?

They need Rand to turn to the shadow for some reason. Maybe it's because he's so strong ta'veren that it could have some special effects on the Pattern if he turns to the shadow... Dunno. Anyhow, for DO's victory to be absolute they need Dragon Reborn on their side.

 

 

 

in that case LTT and the aes sedai had nothing to fear since LTT never considered turing to shadow side.

[Ananta]

 

 

in that case LTT and the aes sedai had nothing to fear since LTT never considered turing to shadow side.

 

World would still be under the rule of the evil side. That's nothing to fear?

 

 

DO's absolute win is destroying the pattern and existence. For that he needs the Dragon Reborn. However, a smaller win is world under his rule.

[MasterAblar]

Do they really need him on their side. I always got the impression that the DO was trying to turn him because it would be easier than fighting him. They didn't mind killing him at shadar logoth for example. Is he really vital for the release of the DO.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Rand has made up a thirty day time limit - true, they can't wait forever, but they don't have to do things quite that quickly. Rand is trying to seize the initiative, but without any real plan and hoping he comes up with one against a self-imposed time limit. I can't see that as a good idea. And Rand could have gotten Egwene to gather people without turning her against him - why does he want to be opposed? And while the Breaking might be a small price to pay for stopping Shai'tan, that doesn't mean it wasn't right of LPD to oppose LTT, as it meant that the price paid wasn't as high as it had to be. LTT was right to act - without it, all was lost. LPD was right to oppose - without that, all is still lost.

 

I don't know whether they don't have to resolve things quickly. Rand seems to have a pretty good grasp on the true state of the war against the shadow. He isn't aware of specific details, but he knows that since the shadow made its play for him and was rejected the DO will go on the offensive. The DO tried for the guaranteed win by turning the DR and now that ploy has failed he'll go for the bloody victory instead. And Rand knows that the forces of the light have no chance of surviving a protracted war. The light lost the war in the AOL, the current forces of the light would be doomed from the start. Rand's goal is to save as many as he can and a few days of a free DO will lead to fewer casualties than a longer war.

 

I doubt Rand could have gotten the nations assembled that quickly if he offered them a unifying threat. He plans on dictating the terms which would lead to the Dragon's Peace. Though Avi will certainly influence him in some way before that happens.

[Entreri]

Could be, being that it is the Last Battle, anybody of worth would be reborn, with the exception of the heroes who could be recalled via the Horn.

 

Nynaeve is likely some powerful AS reborn from AoL or perhaps that AS who made the final stand in Mantheran...Logain could be the one that took out the 2nd greatest city in AoL when he went mad, Lan could be Jearom reborn etc.

[randsc]

For all any of them knew, 30 days might have been too long. To conclude that because they made it 30 days until the world's largest city was in flames, they could have waited longer, is silly.

 

That "made up" time limit is stretching that which is prudent, as it is.

[Cat-Sister]

but wait a second. According to many people here, shaitan and his order not to kill rand is because they need him to break open the great lord's prison. Right? If that's the case then how could the dark one win anything in AOL, considering LTT never considered switching allegiences?

 

yes, the bad guys would overrun everything but it would have never led to a total shadow victory since their master is still locked up

 

I don't get it. Why do they need the dragon for the prison to be opened completely?

 

 

same question i have been asking on dragonmount forums for years. why did the dark one gave the order not to kill rand and this is the answer i get.

I think it has possibly got something to do with him wanting to destroy the wheel of time, if the dragon turned to the shadow and became the DO's champion instead of the creator, then there would be no stopping him from doing what he wants, and the wheel would not "come again" to that point...

[Cat-Sister]

but wait a second. According to many people here, shaitan and his order not to kill rand is because they need him to break open the great lord's prison. Right? If that's the case then how could the dark one win anything in AOL, considering LTT never considered switching allegiences?

 

yes, the bad guys would overrun everything but it would have never led to a total shadow victory since their master is still locked up

 

I don't get it. Why do they need the dragon for the prison to be opened completely?

 

 

same question i have been asking on dragonmount forums for years. why did the dark one gave the order not to kill rand and this is the answer i get.

I think it has possibly got something to do with him wanting to destroy the wheel of time, if the dragon turned to the shadow and became the DO's champion instead of the creator, then there would be no stopping him from doing what he wants, and the wheel would not "come again" to that point...

****I meant the DO's champion instead of the creator's champion

[Elan Tedronai]

but wait a second. According to many people here, shaitan and his order not to kill rand is because they need him to break open the great lord's prison. Right? If that's the case then how could the dark one win anything in AOL, considering LTT never considered switching allegiences?

 

yes, the bad guys would overrun everything but it would have never led to a total shadow victory since their master is still locked up

 

I don't get it. Why do they need the dragon for the prison to be opened completely?

 

 

same question i have been asking on dragonmount forums for years. why did the dark one gave the order not to kill rand and this is the answer i get.

I think it has possibly got something to do with him wanting to destroy the wheel of time, if the dragon turned to the shadow and became the DO's champion instead of the creator, then there would be no stopping him from doing what he wants, and the wheel would not "come again" to that point...

 

 

so if rand turned to the shadow tomorrow, how is the dark one going to achieve total victory? you know not just taking over the world bit but escaping from his prison?

[Terez]

It's just a matter of preventing Rand from doing his thing. He's the only one that has a chance of defeating the Dark One, however he eventually does it. If he's on the Shadow team, he won't want to do it.

[Guest PiotrekS]

For me, the biggest difference between Egwene and Latra is this: Latra was actually heavily involved in the fight against the Shadow and her stance on sealing the Bore was, on its first appearance, equally justified as LTT's. Egwene's role in this fight has so far been almost marginal. She went after Mesaana only because she was in the White Tower. Before that, for books and books she was thinking only about ensuring her power over Aes Sedai. And therefore, regardless of who actually is right about breaking the seals, I simply don't like Egwene's sudden certainty that she should decide how to fight the Last Battle when:

1. She's not the one to fight it and pay the ultimate price

2. She has done nothing so far about removing Dark One's influence (compare that with e.g. Nynaeve, who played a crucial role in cleansing the taint and discovered how to heal stilling and taint-induced madness) outside Aes Sedai context. And I think RJ has spent too many books on showing that Aes Sedai aren't really such be-all and end-all for us to accept that concentrating only on this one organization when the world was crumbling around was in any way justified.

[Mr Ares]

When does he ever indicate that he does not have a plan? He told her he does not have all the answers yet but that's it.

That would be it. He says saidar and saidin must both be used, but then admits that he doesn't really know how. That's not a plan.

 

True it ends up being a very good thing that she opposed LTT on this. But that does not mean that she was right to do it.

Why not? Can one not do the right thing for the wrong reasons? Even assuming we accept her reasons were wrong, which I don't - she thought it was too dangerous, and she had a bit of a point. True, it wasn't as bad as she feared it might be, but that's rather beside the point. Her actions helped to save the world.

 

And in doing so stopped all the women channelers from going crazy. What a monster.

 

Because Latra knew beforehand that Saidin would be tainted, right?

No, but that's hardly relevant. LTT had a plan, whch she considered too dangerous, and opposed it on those grounds. By opposing it, she ended up creating a situation in which things were not as bad as they could have been. To be honest, I'm not really a fan of the line of reasoning the a bad plan should be mindlessly supported because it's the only one on the table. Opposing a bad plan can still be the right thing to do even if you don't have a better one of your own.

 

What Rand says exactly is:

 

"I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet"

I know what it says, and I maintain that those words support my interpretation, not yours. He doesn't have the answers. He doesn't know how to seal the Bore. Thus he doesn't have a plan to seal the Bore. Exactly what I said. Yet is hardly relevant.

 

There is no reason, from Egwene's point of view to think that he will not have those answers by the time they meet again.

No reason to think he will, either. After all, just because you try to get answers, doesn't mean you'll succeed.

 

Also Egwene says this to Rand just after:

 

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

 

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed."

 

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

And Rand leaves it to Egwene to plan. Rand offers scant justification for his decision. Egwene is right to be wary, but Rand basically just says it has to be done but not why.

 

As far as LPD's opposition to LTT goes, I don't think accepting a bad plan because it is the only one on the table is a good idea either. However, what bugs me is that at this point their back is up against the wall, and LTT's plan is the only plan they have.

But as you say, that alone is not reason enough to back it.

Considering the risk that LPD was worried about was successfully evaded by LTT, it's impossible to say that she ended up being right. The taint was something completely unexpected that took everyone by surprise.

It's perfectly possible to say that she ended up being right. Look: LPD ended up being right. You se, I just said it, thus demonstrating its possibility. And it is quite accurate - the taint being expected isn't relevant. She opposed it because she thought it was a bad plan, too risky. She risk she worried about was averted, but there were other risks. Those risks were minimised by her actions. The course of action was right, even if the reason was wrong.

 

As far as him using Egwene to gather everyone for him, well what is more likely: the aes sedai agreeing with him and helping him out, or them being completely opposed to him because of who he is and their opinion of him?

The former. Rand never even bothered trying to get Egwene to support him. And he's a ta'veren - if the Pattern needs her to bring the leaders of the world to listen to him, they will. He could have had her support if he wanted, but he purposely aimed for her opposition. Why? What does he gain? It's not faster than asking for her help, nor is it easier.

 

but wait a second. According to many people here, shaitan and his order not to kill rand is because they need him to break open the great lord's prison. Right? If that's the case then how could the dark one win anything in AOL, considering LTT never considered switching allegiences?

In Sha'rah, it is possible to win by controlling the Fisher, but also to win by letting the other side control him, but leaving only moves that lead to your victory open to him. LTT (like Rand) didn't need to go over to the Shadow - if they could manipulate him into doing as they wanted, they still win.

[MasterAblar]

When does he ever indicate that he does not have a plan? He told her he does not have all the answers yet but that's it.

That would be it. He says saidar and saidin must both be used, but then admits that he doesn't really know how. That's not a plan.

 

True it ends up being a very good thing that she opposed LTT on this. But that does not mean that she was right to do it.

Why not? Can one not do the right thing for the wrong reasons? Even assuming we accept her reasons were wrong, which I don't - she thought it was too dangerous, and she had a bit of a point. True, it wasn't as bad as she feared it might be, but that's rather beside the point. Her actions helped to save the world.

 

And in doing so stopped all the women channelers from going crazy. What a monster.

 

Because Latra knew beforehand that Saidin would be tainted, right?

No, but that's hardly relevant. LTT had a plan, whch she considered too dangerous, and opposed it on those grounds. By opposing it, she ended up creating a situation in which things were not as bad as they could have been. To be honest, I'm not really a fan of the line of reasoning the a bad plan should be mindlessly supported because it's the only one on the table. Opposing a bad plan can still be the right thing to do even if you don't have a better one of your own.

 

What Rand says exactly is:

 

"I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet"

I know what it says, and I maintain that those words support my interpretation, not yours. He doesn't have the answers. He doesn't know how to seal the Bore. Thus he doesn't have a plan to seal the Bore. Exactly what I said. Yet is hardly relevant.

 

There is no reason, from Egwene's point of view to think that he will not have those answers by the time they meet again.

No reason to think he will, either. After all, just because you try to get answers, doesn't mean you'll succeed.

 

Also Egwene says this to Rand just after:

 

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

 

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed."

 

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

And Rand leaves it to Egwene to plan. Rand offers scant justification for his decision. Egwene is right to be wary, but Rand basically just says it has to be done but not why.

 

As far as LPD's opposition to LTT goes, I don't think accepting a bad plan because it is the only one on the table is a good idea either. However, what bugs me is that at this point their back is up against the wall, and LTT's plan is the only plan they have.

But as you say, that alone is not reason enough to back it.

Considering the risk that LPD was worried about was successfully evaded by LTT, it's impossible to say that she ended up being right. The taint was something completely unexpected that took everyone by surprise.

It's perfectly possible to say that she ended up being right. Look: LPD ended up being right. You se, I just said it, thus demonstrating its possibility. And it is quite accurate - the taint being expected isn't relevant. She opposed it because she thought it was a bad plan, too risky. She risk she worried about was averted, but there were other risks. Those risks were minimised by her actions. The course of action was right, even if the reason was wrong.

 

As far as him using Egwene to gather everyone for him, well what is more likely: the aes sedai agreeing with him and helping him out, or them being completely opposed to him because of who he is and their opinion of him?

The former. Rand never even bothered trying to get Egwene to support him. And he's a ta'veren - if the Pattern needs her to bring the leaders of the world to listen to him, they will. He could have had her support if he wanted, but he purposely aimed for her opposition. Why? What does he gain? It's not faster than asking for her help, nor is it easier.

 

but wait a second. According to many people here, shaitan and his order not to kill rand is because they need him to break open the great lord's prison. Right? If that's the case then how could the dark one win anything in AOL, considering LTT never considered switching allegiences?

In Sha'rah, it is possible to win by controlling the Fisher, but also to win by letting the other side control him, but leaving only moves that lead to your victory open to him. LTT (like Rand) didn't need to go over to the Shadow - if they could manipulate him into doing as they wanted, they still win.

 

Well whether Rand has a fully fleshed plan or not is not certain. I would not say it is complete, not even by the end of ToM. But what matters here is what Egwene knows and considering what she says to Elayne and Nynaeve, I don't think that his lack of a plan is why she opposes. I personally don't believe she should be supporting rand either. But just like you said, Rand told her nothing, left her with very little to go with. Why not go to the FoM like Darlin, wanting to discuss it, to understand why Rand wants to break the seals, instead of outright opposing him when she does not know if he knows something she does not? Nynaeve told her everything that happened while she was with Rand. Egwene should have noticed that Rand was nothing like that when she met him. So logically something must have happened to change him. Rand told her that he remembered being LTT. That alone should give her reason to wonder if he does not know something she does not. Going there supporting him when she has no certainties would be foolish but doing the opposite doesn't make sense to me either. Going there to question Rand should not stop her from getting all the leaders to come as well in case Rand is insane and needs to be stopped.

 

If LPD's reasons for taking the course of action she did were wrong then she should not have taken it. That does not mean that the course of she took was wrong but she ended up being wrong about why to take it. And besides even if LTT's plan had 1 in a 100 chances of succeding (from her point of view), it's still better than the 0 out of a 100 if they do nothing. There was no time to come up with another plan and doing nothing means defeat. Best to go with what you have even if you think there is almost no chance it will succeed.

 

I don't recall aes sedai ever deciding to work with Rand if they could help it, and it wasn't really out of any logical reasoning, it was because they feared, hated and, mistrusted him. Even if he managed to sway Egwene to his side (which is not certain as she is very similar to the other aes sedai now), there remains the rest of the hall. They have no reason to trust him and a lot of reasons to think him insane. Not to mention the aes sedai might well try to take control of everything which Rand, though he has changed greatly doesn't seem ready to accept.

[Terez]

I don't recall aes sedai ever deciding to work with Rand if they could help it

Aside from when they saved his ass in Far Madding? His 'plan' for the Cleansing was at least as harebrained as his plan to seal the Bore. He was just going to do it with Lan to guard them. Lan. Against all the Forsaken, whom Rand was trying to pretend did not exist since he didn't know what to do about them. The whole point of the expedition to Far Madding as far as Rand was concerned was to get rid of the renegades so he wouldn't have to worry about them sneaking up on him while he was trying to cleanse saidin.