Forsaken Turning back to the Light? Surviving the Last Battle?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Alright, ever since the Forsaken have been introduced, I have always wanted one of them to turn back to the Light. It seems such a good plotine. The fatally corrupted servant of the shadow redeeming themselves.

 

In relation to this, I have always wanted one of the Forsaken to survive the Last Battle. Perhaps be stilled or exiled.

 

So, who do you think could turn back to the Light in AMOL? Or has this plot device already been used?

 

Can we say that this plot device has already been used via Asmodean? Rand captures him and forces him to be a teacher. But did Asmodean actually turn back to the Light? Or would he ahve tried to kill Rand at the first oppertunity he got?

 

Lets have a look at the remaining Forsaken.

 

Moridin:

I would like to think that he has a real chance of turning back to the Light. He bears no real malice nor grudge against the Light. His reasons for joining the Shadow are the least selfish.

 

He merely wants to end existance. However, it would be fairly easy for him to turn back. All he needs to have is a moment like VoG where Rand realises the worth of life and reason to live and love again.

 

Couple this with his link to Rand, which gives him a reason for wanting to keep Rand alive, and Moridin could well turn back to the Light. He has spent a very suspicious amount of time saving Rand's life, I can defintely see his loyalties shifting.

 

Lanfear

 

Another posibility. The first half of the books she spent her time helping Rand rather than trying to kill him. She even states that with the Chodean Kal she would betray the Great Lord and rule the World with Lews Therin.

 

Also, Rands dream could be sincere. There is a definite possibilty she could turn back to the Light .

 

Demandred

The last of the Forsaken i could see turning back to the Light.

Demandred did not turn to the shadow straight away, and his reason is the most falible.

He turned because of his hatred of Lews Therin.

 

His soul concern is killing Rand, thats the only reason he lives basically.

 

It is highly unlikely, but since all we hear of Demandred is his wish to Kill Rand, could he actually suceed. he seems the most likely to do such a thing.

 

We know Rand is going to die somehow, so here it is.

 

So my scenario is that Demandred finally kills Lews Therin after all his hatred and realises "hey, that wasnt so great" and, having no reason to stay with the Shadow, turns back to the Light. Unlikely I know, but a possibility.

 

 

Graendal and Moggy. I cannot see them turning back to the Light, they seem to devoted to the shadow nor shown any sign of betraying the Great Lord like the others have. Of course, Graendal did get raped, that could be a reason, and Moggy is of course Mindtrapped. However, for some reason, I am not seeing it.

 

 

As for surviving the Last Battle, I can only see the women surviving.

 

Moggy and Lanfear.

 

Moggy has always been a coward, I can see her running away or begging for her life after being captured.

 

I can see Lanfear surviving, having turned back to the Light, living in obscurity.

 

 

Moridin, Demandred and Graendal I cannot see living.

 

Moridin is too attached to the DO to survive, even if he turns back to the Light. His use of the TP and position as Nae'blis seal him to hte DO, I cannot see him living after the DO has been sealed away, nor the DO allowing him to live after a betrayal.

 

Demandred's hatred is too great. He will not surrender, nor will he run. He will die trying to kill Rand. Or, if he turns to the light as per my unlikely scenario, he will not last the LB. Too much of his life has been dedicated to killing Rand, i dont see how he could live afterwards.

 

Graendal i cant see living either. She is courageous, and seems totally devoted to the Shadow. I can see her hiding away, she is good at it, but for some reason I just cant see her running like moggy. She seems to be made of sterner stuff.

[herid]

Somehow I don't see any Forsaken turning back to the Light. Every single one of them committed unspeakable crimes in AoL. Rand mentions that to Taim.

 

“Whatever your crimes are, Taim, they pale beside the Forsaken’s. Have you ever tortured an entire city, made thousands of people assist in breaking each other slowly, in breaking their own loved ones? Semirhage did that, for no more reason than that she could, to prove she could, for the pleasure of it. Have you murdered children? Graendal did. She called it kindness, so they would not suffer after she enslaved their parents and carried them away.” He just hoped the other Saldaeans were listening half as closely as Taim; the man had actually leaned forward slightly in interest. He hoped they did not ask too many questions about where all this came from. “Have you given people to Trollocs to eat? All the Forsaken did—prisoners who would not turn always went to the Trollocs, if they weren’t murdered out of hand—but Demandred captured two cities just because he thought the people there had slighted him before he went over to the Shadow, and every man, woman and child went into Trolloc bellies. Mesaana set up schools in the territory she controlled, schools where children and young people were taught the glories of the Dark One, taught to kill their friends who didn’t learn well enough or fast enough. I could go on. I could start from the beginning of the list and go through all thirteen names, adding a hundred crimes as bad to every name.

 

-LoC, Ch2

 

IMO, there is no redemption coming for any of them.

[GYLD]

I wouldn't say they will turn back to light, or find any kind of genuine redemption, but Lanfear and Demandred I think have a good shot of turning on the Shadow. They turned to the Shadow in the first place for very specific reasons, and at this point, it's pretty clear the Dark One is not at all concerned with giving them their wants and desires. Once Lanfear speaks with the new Rand I suspect she will begin to let go some of that anger and realize that being the victim of a mindtrap is far worse than being spurned by your reincarnated lover.

 

Demandred is likely going to arrive at the next Forsaken tea party and discover he and the Nae'blis are the only Chosen left unbound to a mindtrap. Moridin who I can't recall ever even humoring the idea that he'd let Demandred take the killing blow. It's at this point Demandred should think to himself, "Wait, this isn't what I signed up for."

[Byzantine279]

Moridin turning would honestly be too cliche, but I can see lanfear turning, but not because she wants to go back to the light, only because she wants revenge on Moridin and the DO for what was done to her.

[hankscorpio]

I don't see any of the Forsaken turning (possibly Lanfear, slim chance), but I could see one of them, possibly Demandred, finding out Moridin's true intentions and turning on/trying to kill Moridin. If that happened that wouldn't suddenly make Demandred any less of a bad guy though.

[Pygmalion79]

I wouldn't say they will turn back to light, or find any kind of genuine redemption, but Lanfear and Demandred I think have a good shot of turning on the Shadow.

 

I generally agree, especially about Lanfear. Rereading the series, I don't see one moment where she shows even a speck of goodness, so I don't think that she will turn to the Light. But she is a very selfish person and I could see her turning on the Shadow out of spite and hatred for Moridin. Similarly, Demandred might turn on Moridin and if necessary the Dark One for his own personal vendetta, but I don't see him turning back to the Light. Someone who turns to the Shadow because of envy and who slaughtered whole cities because they slighted him is far too selfish to turn without a remarkable story behind that redemption, and given how Demandred has been kept offscreen, that's unlikely. Moridin of course could be reasoned out of his devotion to the Dark One, if Rand could convince him that killing the Dark One were possible. But ~3400 years is a long time to pursue a cosmic death wish.

[FarShainMael]

What effect would Zen Rand be having on Moridin, through the link? I think it will either drive him insane or turn him back to the Light.

[zidfrekle]

I don't forsee any of the Forsaken crossing back over into the Light, but if one did, I would guess it would be Graendal. She is doomed to be mindtrapped/eliminated after her failure to kill Perrin, and has already lost all of her "pets" and her luxurious lifestyle that she cherishes. Plus, Graendal was originally known for her skills with Healing. She went to the shadow because she was disappointed with people as a whole. With all of the new advances in Healing being brought forward, and the goodwill of people coming together, she could possibly be swayed back to the light....still not likely.

[Terez]

Demandred is likely going to arrive at the next Forsaken tea party and discover he and the Nae'blis are the only Chosen left unbound to a mindtrap. Moridin who I can't recall ever even humoring the idea that he'd let Demandred take the killing blow. It's at this point Demandred should think to himself, "Wait, this isn't what I signed up for."

He did humor the idea in the TGS prologue. He even seemed to sanction it. I addressed that here. Demandred believes that he has the right to the point that he's not afraid to say so in front of Moridin, and the only exception that Moridin insists upon is 'you or the Great Lord'. Add that to Brandon saying that Demandred is the 'main player' for the Shadow, and I'd say Demandred has reason to believe he will get his chance.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Realistically, I could see many of the Forsaken turning on the Shadow, if not necessarily going back over to the Light. But RJ preferred to depict them as a bunch of irredeemable supervillains, and I suspect that we're unlikely to see any defections among the Dark's generals. Moridin, Lanfear, and Graendal seem the most likely among the survivors, but I have to say they're all long-shots. Moridin might end up being so transformed by his bond with Rand that there may not be enough of him left to continue being a Forsaken, so that might count as a technicality, but again it's just my wild speculation.

[Feral]

I've always thought Graendal is the most likely to turn. To me she's one of the most well balanced of the Forsaken and she shows no particular enjoyment of cruelty. Also, her reasons for turning to the Shadow (well what I guess are her reasons) are the most understandable in some ways and the least evil. In my opinion anyway. Plus she's my fav baddie lol. I really would love to see her turn good.

[Mr Hindley]

I've always thought Graendal is the most likely to turn. To me she's one of the most well balanced of the Forsaken and she shows no particular enjoyment of cruelty. Also, her reasons for turning to the Shadow (well what I guess are her reasons) are the most understandable in some ways and the least evil. In my opinion anyway. Plus she's my fav baddie lol. I really would love to see her turn good.

 

I think Graendal is the most practical of the Forsaken - see her first meeting with Shaidar Haran - and to save her skin, she'd have no hesitation about professing a change in sides. I agree, she's also my favourite baddie so I'm kind of hoping she'll make it out alive... But I can't see her missing out on her 'little pleasures' in life with her pets, nor is Rand likely to be easily duped. At best, she might sneak off somewhere obscure post-TG and carve out a minor dominion for herself where no-one is likely to find her.

 

Actually - bear in mind, she's the only Forsaken that everyone mistakenly thinks is already dead. Hmm... That has to count for something, surely?

[Feral]

But I can't see her missing out on her 'little pleasures' in life with her pets

 

Well she is supposed to be a beautiful woman so perhaps she'll just make do with having handsome men fawning over her of their own free will rather than the blind adoration of compulsion? Oh no I know Galad will fall hopelessly in love with her and he's so good looking she won't need any other pets lol.

 

And that's a good point about everyone thinking she's dead. Maybe there is hope for her.

[Awakened]

 

 

Demandred is likely going to arrive at the next Forsaken tea party and discover he and the Nae'blis are the only Chosen left unbound to a mindtrap. Moridin who I can't recall ever even humoring the idea that he'd let Demandred take the killing blow. It's at this point Demandred should think to himself, "Wait, this isn't what I signed up for."

 

Disagree, he is all about revenge against Lews Therin for always being better than him. He would probably burn down the Pattern itself before allowing Lews Therin to escape him. Sure, after Lews Therin was dead he might start thinking long term, but if Demandred believed that the Shadow was his only chance at beating Lews Therin he won't jump ship until he got what he wanted.

[Lord D]

I've always thought Graendal is the most likely to turn. To me she's one of the most well balanced of the Forsaken and she shows no particular enjoyment of cruelty. Also, her reasons for turning to the Shadow (well what I guess are her reasons) are the most understandable in some ways and the least evil. In my opinion anyway. Plus she's my fav baddie lol. I really would love to see her turn good.

Graendal may not torture anyone, but her pets are completely mind-destroyed; it's worse than what Rahvin did to Morgase, as Morgase could still think for herself. I'm of the opinion that people who do this kind of thing deserve some real pain, and it looks like Shaidar Haran is currently giving Graendal the justice that she deserves.

 

I think Asmodean is going to be the only Forsaken that returns to the Light; the rest deserve to suffer some dreadful fates, and indeed some of the female Forsaken have suffered.

[Ramzrie]

It has been stated several times throughout WoT that "No matter how far someone is in the shadow, they can always come back to the light."

 

Personally, I would like to see Moridin's redemption back to the light, and also find out that he is a fallen Dragon that turned to the Dark in despair (realizing the fight would go on forever unless the Wheel was broken.)

[OptimusPrime]

Demandred. He will realize that his reasons for turning are all happening again but in reverse. Hes second to a madman, who he thinks is inferior. Hes second to someone who has DIED already. The Dark One would laugh at him for such logic, but Demandred still thinks like a human which is basically the mistake the Dark One sees in him and not Moridin.

 

I think Moridins merge with Rand doesnt count as him coming back to the Light. That to me is more or less the same thing as someone being 13x13d, as in, he wont do it by choice, but because his personality has been influenced (by the link to Rand)

[TheAngryDruid]

Again, I'm more doubtful about turning back to the Light, but I think if any were made aware of the DO's, or Moridin's true game (nihilism), then they could switch sides out of sheer self-preservation.

 

In fact, we know Moggy and Graendal have been repeatedly raped. And likely Lanfear as well. I'd think Moggy and Lanfear would promise almost anything (even on a binder) if someone could get them out of those mind traps.

 

Regarding Moggy, I don't think she's a coward anymore. We haven't really seen a POV from her since The Cleansing, but I remember there was a thought in there from her along the lines of not being afraid of anything anymore if she survived it. And she did.

 

Still, we've heard the saying so much, I'd like to see it. Either form one of the Forsaken, or some sort of way to undo the 13x13 or whatever has been done to Tarna and the others.

[Cutlass]

If the Forsaken switch side they still need to be excuted... any switchovers would be purely lip service - and lets face facts, ANY of their crimes aginst humanity are worth an excution if even just to forgoe the chance they might do it again.

 

Morridin - how many people has he killed (or ordered killed?) 100? - 1 million? think Hitler with more power then a nuke.

 

Lanfear - same deal - although if anyone would switch side it would be her - shes out for herself above all else - and regardless if she worships the shadow, or the creator or herself she wouldn't think twice about cutting someone down.

 

Demandred - just out for the dragons blood he'll take power whereever he could get it and the shadow gave it to him - he's figiting for his team to the death.

 

Greandal - like Lanfear way too selfish more interested in the pleasures of life. Just half the act's she pulled in the 3rd age would send her to the headmans axe (regardl;ess of whatever punishemnt she gets from SH) she is a cold blooded killer.

 

moghedion - I see her surviving and hiding away causing greif for the post TG world. that suits her MO -she can live small and secretly and still counter influence important events. turing back to the light - only if she though it would hel;p her survive.

 

pretty sure the rest are dead and staying there for the time being (messanna - shes just kinda vegging right now - if Egwene was smart she would balefire her ass)

[Saguin Venart]

No a forsaken, but I always thought Alviarin would be raised to the level of The Chosen, then would hike her skirts and high tail it to the Light when the shadow was about to lose.

[OptimusPrime]

What effect would Zen Rand be having on Moridin, through the link? I think it will either drive him insane or turn him back to the Light.

 

"Lews Therin"

[Lord D]

If the Forsaken switch side they still need to be excuted... any switchovers would be purely lip service - and lets face facts, ANY of their crimes aginst humanity are worth an excution if even just to forgoe the chance they might do it again.

 

Morridin - how many people has he killed (or ordered killed?) 100? - 1 million? think Hitler with more power then a nuke.

 

Lanfear - same deal - although if anyone would switch side it would be her - shes out for herself above all else - and regardless if she worships the shadow, or the creator or herself she wouldn't think twice about cutting someone down.

 

Demandred - just out for the dragons blood he'll take power whereever he could get it and the shadow gave it to him - he's figiting for his team to the death.

 

Greandal - like Lanfear way too selfish more interested in the pleasures of life. Just half the act's she pulled in the 3rd age would send her to the headmans axe (regardl;ess of whatever punishemnt she gets from SH) she is a cold blooded killer.

 

moghedion - I see her surviving and hiding away causing greif for the post TG world. that suits her MO -she can live small and secretly and still counter influence important events. turing back to the light - only if she though it would hel;p her survive.

 

pretty sure the rest are dead and staying there for the time being (messanna - shes just kinda vegging right now - if Egwene was smart she would balefire her ass)

I agree very much with these sentiments. The Forsaken should definitely not be forgiven for their crimes, and would only turn back for the most selfish reasons. Execute them all!!!

[Nooska]

If the Forsaken switch side they still need to be excuted... any switchovers would be purely lip service - and lets face facts, ANY of their crimes aginst humanity are worth an excution if even just to forgoe the chance they might do it again.

 

Morridin - how many people has he killed (or ordered killed?) 100? - 1 million? think Hitler with more power then a nuke.

 

Lanfear - same deal - although if anyone would switch side it would be her - shes out for herself above all else - and regardless if she worships the shadow, or the creator or herself she wouldn't think twice about cutting someone down.

 

Demandred - just out for the dragons blood he'll take power whereever he could get it and the shadow gave it to him - he's figiting for his team to the death.

 

Greandal - like Lanfear way too selfish more interested in the pleasures of life. Just half the act's she pulled in the 3rd age would send her to the headmans axe (regardl;ess of whatever punishemnt she gets from SH) she is a cold blooded killer.

 

moghedion - I see her surviving and hiding away causing greif for the post TG world. that suits her MO -she can live small and secretly and still counter influence important events. turing back to the light - only if she though it would hel;p her survive.

 

pretty sure the rest are dead and staying there for the time being (messanna - shes just kinda vegging right now - if Egwene was smart she would balefire her ass)

I agree very much with these sentiments. The Forsaken should definitely not be forgiven for their crimes, and would only turn back for the most selfish reasons. Execute them all!!!

By defintion, would switching sides for selfish reasons not make you a darkfriend - and thus prevent you from "turning" to the light?

[Stone Rocks Hold]

I imagine that if any of the Forsaken return to the light, it will be only moments before he/she dies. That way, the story doesn't have to deal with the fallout of how to treat a "redeemed Forsaken." All of them are guilty of heinous crimes against humanity during the War of the Shadow (and after), and any would stand trial even after a conversion experience.

 

With respect to who might do that, IMO, Lanfear is the best guess. Her motivation for joining the Shadow in the first place always seemed to me to be too emotional to be well reasoned - meaning that her emotion could lead her back the other way.

 

I think she'd have to be very hard pressed, but Lanfear may very well have actual feelings for Rand/LTT (in a sociopath kind of way), and I could see her come to the Light if she saw someone (other than herself) in the process of killing him. She spends much of the early books protecting Rand and guiding him. She's by far the most independent thinking of the Forsaken, she's the only one that has talked openly of challenging the Dark One, and now she has a pretty strong/recent grievance against Moridin. We also have no idea what she learned from the 'Fins - but I imagine that the experience could have done something to reshape her personality though that remains to be seen. Even ignoring that, from a motivation to change standpoint, I've always seen Lanfear's power-obtaining behavior as a mechanism for trying to impress LTT - even if grabbing power meant joining the Shadow. She's trying to impress him by being his bad guy equal. "If only I can stand toe to toe with him, he'll notice me and love me." Sociopath reasoning, but it fits with Lanfear's behavior.

 

So, if Moridin/Fain/Demandred are on the verge of killing Rand, I can imagine a scenario where Lanfear sacrifices herself to save him. Perhaps as she's dying, she confesses genuine - if misplaced - feelings (and the secret to sealing the Bore).

 

I can't see Moridin turning. He was a noted philosopher during the Age of Legends. I cannot imagine that he wouldn't have considered "love" already as a reason for being on the side of the Light. And I think it would cheapen the danger present in the story if Moridin crossed back over. He's the big baddy, and he has been since book 1. I don't know how he could come back to the Light without the book feeling very anti-climactic. I could see Moridin wrestling with the idea, though, like Rand wrestled with the Shadow on top of Dragonmount, but ultimately embracing his destiny (the Shadow) once more. Nobody else in the series would be a notable enough a conversion (or realistic enough within the parameters of the story) to be worth the telling of it in the last book.

[Suttree]

With respect to who might do that, IMO, Lanfear is the best guess. Her motivation for joining the Shadow in the first place always seemed to me to be too emotional to be well reasoned - meaning that her emotion could lead her back the other way.

 

I think she'd have to be very hard pressed, but Lanfear may very well have actual feelings for Rand/LTT (in a sociopath kind of way), and I could see her come to the Light if she saw someone (other than herself) in the process of killing him. She spends much of the early books protecting Rand and guiding him. She's by far the most independent thinking of the Forsaken, she's the only one that has talked openly of challenging the Dark One, and now she has a pretty strong/recent grievance against Moridin. We also have no idea what she learned from the 'Fins - but I imagine that the experience could have done something to reshape her personality though that remains to be seen. Even ignoring that, from a motivation to change standpoint, I've always seen Lanfear's power-obtaining behavior as a mechanism for trying to impress LTT - even if grabbing power meant joining the Shadow. She's trying to impress him by being his bad guy equal. "If only I can stand toe to toe with him, he'll notice me and love me." Sociopath reasoning, but it fits with Lanfear's behavior.

 

Per RJ she was "ripe for the shadows plucking" long before the bore was drilled and the character flaws that led her to join were exhibited throughout her entire life. It is no coincidence that in a time in which self sacrifice and public service were the most prized traits she failed to earn a third name despite being so powerful.

 

To your other points her protecting and guarding Rand had nothing to do with her feelings for him. It was merely an ends to a mean...

 

RJ

And Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love—not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted—wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance.

 

In terms of her power "obtaining" behavior you have it backwards. All he ever was for her was a stepping stone to power and prestige.

 

BWB

Lews Therin broke off the relationship some years before the drilling of the Bore, partly because she loved her association with the great Lews Therin more than she loved the man, and partly because she saw him as a path to power for herself.

 

Rand tells us the truth of the matter himself...

 

TSR

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

 

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true — he knew they were true — but where had they come from?

 

Selene — Lanfear — seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly.

 

Notice she doesn't even try to deny it, she is just stunned her remembered.