A Seanchan Solution

[Ashandarei]

The plan is simple: Why not send the Randland equivalent of bloodknives into the Seanchan ranks, whether through gateways or by crossing borders on foot- spies who have one and only one purpose in the Seanchan controlled lands. Collar every single sul'dam they can find as covertly as possible and move on before they are found leaving behind a trail of horrified Seanchan people(non-channelers) to find their supposedly honored sul'dam to be no less "revolting" than the damane they handle.

 

It would be a two-fold blow: firstly the very people in charge of the damane(sul'dam) would get a taste of their own medicine as well as be incapacitated by the truth of their ability and secondly every "normal" person who can't touch the Power would no longer trust the sul'dam to do anything, much less handle the damane. This would be much more effective than slowly sending back sul'dam in 1's and 2's as Elayne is doing.

 

The Seanchan's worldview and power? In ashes.

 

Is there any good reason this wasn't done in the series besides the fact that it would make the Seanchan threat "too easy" to deal with and remove a large part of the conflict that is part of the story?

 

Thoughts?

[moratcorlm]

What, you mean Warders?

[Ashandarei]

What, you mean Warders?

 

Oh I just meant anyone whose highly trained at deception/being sneaky like what Tuon and Karede thought Thom was. Although Warders would definitely qualify now that you mention it.

[kanucha]

 

Is there any good reason this wasn't done in the series besides the fact that it would make the Seanchan threat "too easy" to deal with and remove a large part of the conflict that is part of the story?

 

Thoughts?

 

1. Randland doesn't have the equivalent of Bloodknives.

2. Randland does not have a'dam. (Nor have they ever tried to make them, I believe. I think their three oaths may even preven them from making a'dam)

3. The people with the power to make the a'dam would probably seek to emancipate the damane and sul'dam--not make their culture try to destroy them.

[moratcorlm]

Oh I just meant anyone whose highly trained at deception/being sneaky like what Tuon and Karede thought Thom was.

It seems unlikely that ordinary spies could orchestrate massive infiltration and sabotage of essentially military barracks to acquire a'dam, and then track down sul'dam off-duty to leash them (because trying to leash them on-duty sounds like all kinds of a terrible idea). I assumed when you mentioned the "equivalent of Bloodknives" that you were referring to their extraordinary sneakiness, viz., their invisibility, which is something only Warders (or others outfitted with fancloth cloaks–Aes Sedai production of fancloth seems to be limited, though) can theoretically match, and really fancloth is nowhere near as effective as the Bloodknife rings.

[Ashandarei]

 

Is there any good reason this wasn't done in the series besides the fact that it would make the Seanchan threat "too easy" to deal with and remove a large part of the conflict that is part of the story?

 

Thoughts?

 

1. Randland doesn't have the equivalent of Bloodknives.

2. Randland does not have a'dam. (Nor have they ever tried to make them, I believe. I think their three oaths may even preven them from making a'dam)

3. The people with the power to make the a'dam would probably seek to emancipate the damane and sul'dam--not make their culture try to destroy them.

 

1) Warders

2,3)A'dam are already there in Seanchan lands aplenty, no need to make them. (read below)

 

Oh I just meant anyone whose highly trained at deception/being sneaky like what Tuon and Karede thought Thom was.

It seems unlikely that ordinary spies could orchestrate massive infiltration and sabotage of essentially military barracks to acquire a'dam, and then track down sul'dam off-duty to leash them (because trying to leash them on-duty sounds like all kinds of a terrible idea). I assumed when you mentioned the "equivalent of Bloodknives" that you were referring to their extraordinary sneakiness, viz., their invisibility, which is something only Warders (or others outfitted with fancloth cloaks–Aes Sedai production of fancloth seems to be limited, though) can theoretically match, and really fancloth is nowhere near as effective as the Bloodknife rings.

 

It would in fact be on-duty sul'dam. I don't even have to create the scenario, RJ did it for us in Egwene's case with Renna(IIRC). Based on that event but modified for this case:

Infiltrate the kennels*, subdue the damane by gagging and if necessary knocking them out to keep them quiet, remove the a'dam(the agent would obviously need to be trained to remove the collars), snap it on the moment a sul'dam enters to take her charge out for a walk etc(if necessary knock out sul-dam first). Finally, 99% of cases the collared sul'dam would be too horrified to scream out and reveal their situation but just for good measure gag them and leave them. Rinse, repeat.

 

*The hardest part would be the infiltration, which while challenging for an average person, is a piece of cake for a warder with fancloth(it can cover the whole body, doesn't have to leave the head exposed, as we see when the "watcher" is spying on Sammael/Graendal after their meeting with Sevanna and the Shaido. Also, even without the whole body covered, as Lan demonstrated when infiltrating the whitecloak camp to save Perrin/Egwene, a warder is trained to deal with stealth situations like that.

[moratcorlm]

I don't even have to create the scenario, RJ did it for us in Egwene's case with Renna(IIRC). Based on that event but modified for this case:

Infiltrate the kennels*, subdue the damane by gagging and if necessary knocking them out to keep them quiet, remove the a'dam(the agent would obviously need to be trained to remove the collars), snap it on the moment a sul'dam enters to take her charge out for a walk etc(if necessary knock out sul-dam first). Finally, 99% of cases the collared sul'dam would be too horrified to scream out and reveal their situation but just for good measure gag them and leave them. Rinse, repeat.

 

*The hardest part would be the infiltration, which while challenging for an average person, is a piece of cake for a warder with fancloth(it can cover the whole body, doesn't have to leave the head exposed, as we see when the "watcher" is spying on Sammael/Graendal after their meeting with Sevanna and the Shaido. Also, even without the whole body covered, as Lan demonstrated when infiltrating the whitecloak camp to save Perrin/Egwene, a warder is trained to deal with stealth situations like that.

The hardest part in fact is "remove the a'dam", which almost always results in this:

But when he forced a sul’dam to remove the woman’s collar, her a’dam, she screamed for the sul’dam to help her and immediately began lashing out with the Power.

Elayne, Min, and Nynaeve were very lucky that the damane Seta was walking in TGH45 was a recent captive who bolted instead. Now, I suppose your solution to that is to kill the damane (since gags wouldn't work and "knocking them out" really doesn't work as well as movies would have you think), but good luck doing so before some manner of alarm is raised – at which point soldiers and complete sul'dam, not sul'dam ripe for the collaring, will be the first into the room. Really, it's a much better idea to try to find the bulk stores of a'dam the Return brought along (i.e., the ones Tylee requisitioned).

 

In any case, the necessity for Warders makes it a moot point, since Aes Sedai would not authorize their Warders to go on suicide missions like this en masse.

[Ashandarei]

It may not be necessary for Warders to do it, the only truly important part would be the fancloths which can be made on the WT ter'angreal easily. For a task this important I can easily see the Amyrlin/Hall having it run overtime to provide the fancloths. People who are good at being stealthy can be quite normal individuals like Vanin for example, the horse thief.

 

As for the damane, I'd never suggest killing them in this process considering it would be pretty hypocritical to kill the victims of this process while aiming at the ultimate goal of freeing them. The knocking out part really wouldn't be that impossible, since this is in fact fiction and not reality and again, as Lan did early in the series with the Whitecloaks guarding Perrin, it's been shown that knocking out alert guards is quite feasible in the WoT world.

 

I would agree about taking the extra a'dam, but only because they mention that there are always more sul'dam than damane, since the more things the covert agents have to carry, the harder it would be for them to sneak.

[AquilaInfernus]

Send in Aes Sedai with inverted weaves that prevent others seeing the ability, I think this was done while Moghedien was in captivity. They could parade as recent sul'dam trained in Falme (before it's demise), tie off inverted shields and gags/bindings on damane, then use the now free a'dam on unsuspecting sul'dam. If you're really willing to risk it, again masquerade as a sul'dam, take out damane for exercise or whatever, then pre-arrange with the White Tower to spirit them away for rehab. Hell, do both at the same time!

 

Cowardly Aes Sedai! (yes I know some of these weaves have only just be rediscovered, but still, I'd have thought it would be a feasible rescue mission following the raid)

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Why bother? Rand needs their support in the TG and he can't spare the manpower to get involved in an overarching military conflict with the Seanchan. Likewise he needs them and their highly efficient bureaucracy post-TG to help restore order to a chaotic world. Doubtless the already prominent migrations to Seanchan controlled lands will only increase the more things collapse in Randland.

[dpmcg]

Lets face it, your viewpoints are all fairly valid but storywise how satisfied would you be with a solution like that? sure it makes sense but to be honest if that was the way the seanchan issue was settled I would be more than a little dissapointed!

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Lets face it, your viewpoints are all fairly valid but storywise how satisfied would you be with a solution like that? sure it makes sense but to be honest if that was the way the seanchan issue was settled I would be more than a little dissapointed!

 

 

Which solution? That Rand bows down and recognizes that the Seanchan forces are simply for the time being too superior for him to fight? It takes a great man to realize when there is a fight he cannot win. The Seanchan are too massive, too intelligent and too well organized to be crushed like the nations in Randland which Rand conquered (Cairhien, Tear, Illian, Andor, etc..).

 

Likewise Rand realized with piety that the Seanchan were a force for good in the world. Considering the scene where Rand was in disguise touring through Seanchan territory he noted how content and happy all the people seemed, how the Seanchan were feeding all the previously starving refugees left to fend for themselves by their former Randland nobles, rebuilding destroyed infrastructure and housing, etc.. In all honesty Rand will not move against them since he cannot morally justify it let alone muster/risk the forces necessary for such a strike.

 

As Aviendha's foretelling showed the Seanchan are the legacy of Hawkwings "one Empire, one People" dream. Post-TG they will continue to assimilate cultures into their fold and usher in a new age of prosperity, stability, peace and trade. A few war-mongering desert savages apparently won't destroy this ambitious undertaking simply because the Seanchan rally the support of the poor and disenfranchised who value nothing more than stability and safety.

[blazetheearth]

Not Warders, Aes Sedai.

 

Well, AS/WO/WF/Kin/any woman you can find that is strong enough to invert her weaves and hide her ability to channel and weave a Mask of Mirrors and preferably strong enough to travel (but not actually necessary because gateways could be provided for them to get to Seanchan held lands (preferably by Asha'man because the damane couldn't sense those).

 

Every Aes Sedai could go in and bring back 2 damane each. Warders in fancloth cloaks to collar a few sul'dam and leave them there, but a combined effort by the BT and WT could strip the Seanchan of every damane they have (or near enough) within one night. Just have the AS put on the bracelets and bring the damane back through the AM Gateways. Don't uncollar them until they are far away from Seanchan held lands.

 

As for why no one has thought of it in Randland, it's because no one talks to each other. I have often found it humorous that Mat thinks about how 'women like to talk', and Nyn/Elayne/Eggy all think about how 'men like to talk/gossip', but in reality in the story the people should be talking to each other never do.

[Erunion]

Sending in women who can channel is risky, because they're is a (small, if their smart) chance that they'll get caught and collared.

 

Send in the Asha'man. Won't even need to invert weaves!

All it would require is that you get some Wise Ones to work with the Asha'man. You would use Tel'aran'rhiod to find out where the kennels are, then have Asha'man gate in, then, using the AM's to hold the fort sneakily, have the wise ones grab as many Damane as they can (simply snap the bracelets on, theoretically you should be able to have more than one Damane at a time. If not, then just take several trips) and then run out the still-open gateway. Once the Damane are secure, the Wise Ones begin the process of reintegrating them into society.

 

If they're smart, they should be able to subdue any Sul'dam/Damane pairs they find completed relatively easily, and even if they aren't able to they'll still only lose minimal casualties.

 

Do this, and you'll take away all (well, 90% of) the Damane. After this, convincing the Seanchan to stop collaring people will be a lot easier (No Damane = less of a loss + they'll be terrified of your channeler equipped army).

[moratcorlm]

You would use Tel'aran'rhiod to find out where the kennels are

...how?

[randsc]

Lets face it, your viewpoints are all fairly valid but storywise how satisfied would you be with a solution like that? sure it makes sense but to be honest if that was the way the seanchan issue was settled I would be more than a little dissapointed!

 

 

Which solution? That Rand bows down and recognizes that the Seanchan forces are simply for the time being too superior for him to fight? It takes a great man to realize when there is a fight he cannot win. The Seanchan are too massive, too intelligent and too well organized to be crushed like the nations in Randland which Rand conquered (Cairhien, Tear, Illian, Andor, etc..).

 

Likewise Rand realized with piety that the Seanchan were a force for good in the world. Considering the scene where Rand was in disguise touring through Seanchan territory he noted how content and happy all the people seemed, how the Seanchan were feeding all the previously starving refugees left to fend for themselves by their former Randland nobles, rebuilding destroyed infrastructure and housing, etc.. In all honesty Rand will not move against them since he cannot morally justify it let alone muster/risk the forces necessary for such a strike.

 

As Aviendha's foretelling showed the Seanchan are the legacy of Hawkwings "one Empire, one People" dream. Post-TG they will continue to assimilate cultures into their fold and usher in a new age of prosperity, stability, peace and trade. A few war-mongering desert savages apparently won't destroy this ambitious undertaking simply because the Seanchan rally the support of the poor and disenfranchised who value nothing more than stability and safety.

 

You must have been reading a different series of books than the rest of us.

 

Seanchan is in chaos, with open war throughout the empire. Fortuona controls the far west of Randland, that's it.

 

We don't, as far as I can recall, see anything in the text that the Seanchan are rebuilding infrastructure and housing. Do you have a quote?

 

The Seanchan are morally reprehensible. The stability they offer it the stability the cattleman offers his herd, and for the same reason.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Lets face it, your viewpoints are all fairly valid but storywise how satisfied would you be with a solution like that? sure it makes sense but to be honest if that was the way the seanchan issue was settled I would be more than a little dissapointed!

 

 

Which solution? That Rand bows down and recognizes that the Seanchan forces are simply for the time being too superior for him to fight? It takes a great man to realize when there is a fight he cannot win. The Seanchan are too massive, too intelligent and too well organized to be crushed like the nations in Randland which Rand conquered (Cairhien, Tear, Illian, Andor, etc..).

 

Likewise Rand realized with piety that the Seanchan were a force for good in the world. Considering the scene where Rand was in disguise touring through Seanchan territory he noted how content and happy all the people seemed, how the Seanchan were feeding all the previously starving refugees left to fend for themselves by their former Randland nobles, rebuilding destroyed infrastructure and housing, etc.. In all honesty Rand will not move against them since he cannot morally justify it let alone muster/risk the forces necessary for such a strike.

 

As Aviendha's foretelling showed the Seanchan are the legacy of Hawkwings "one Empire, one People" dream. Post-TG they will continue to assimilate cultures into their fold and usher in a new age of prosperity, stability, peace and trade. A few war-mongering desert savages apparently won't destroy this ambitious undertaking simply because the Seanchan rally the support of the poor and disenfranchised who value nothing more than stability and safety.

 

You must have been reading a different series of books than the rest of us.

 

Seanchan is in chaos, with open war throughout the empire. Fortuona controls the far west of Randland, that's it.

 

We don't, as far as I can recall, see anything in the text that the Seanchan are rebuilding infrastructure and housing. Do you have a quote?

 

The Seanchan are morally reprehensible. The stability they offer it the stability the cattleman offers his herd, and for the same reason.

 

 

Mostly since the entire Imperial family has just been murdered and the heiress was kidnapped for a good few months without everyone knowing yet of her status or return to safety. The tumult seems a temporary issue that will solve itself rather quickly.

 

You merely have to revisit Ebou Dar and see it through the eyes of Rand. He sought to destroy Ebou Dar and yet even in his hardest phase he was moved by the undertakings of the Seanchan to better the lot of the lowest common denominators of society. It is what lead to his reflective musing that the Seanchan in some regards were more privy and caring to the needs of their newly conquered subjects than Rand was in his newly acquired dominions.

 

Yet a man who leads rabid savages from the desert into your lands who loot, plunder and even go rogue (Shaido) are somehow to be seen as less reprehensible? Mind you the Shaido go around enslaving children, which I honestly find worse than the entire damane affair. The Dragonsworn whom Rand called to his banners go around murdering, looting and raping with Rand looking the other way to tolerate their excesses pretending their not his problem. The list goes on and on.

[randsc]

If I say, " X is reprehensible", it in no way disproves my point for you to say, "Well, Y is reprehensible too!"

 

We have no reason to think that the chaos in Seanchan is temporary. The fact that Jordan planned a series of outrigger novels set in Seanchan suggests that the place isn't about to settle down into peace and harmony immediately. And we have a number of indications in the text that wars and rebellions within Seanchan are not uncommon.

 

Perhaps because they enslave large parts of the population. The way they treat channellers is the least of it. You're talking about a place where if a parent isn't quick enough to cast his eyes downward when he sees a member of the Blood, his children and all of their descendents end up as chattel.

[yoniy0]

I daresay the Aiel never actually plundered the Wet Lands. They've taken the fifth, but only from the rich and powerful. And the Shaido were never among the ones led by Rand, so they didn't in fact go 'rogue'. Rand actually brought his Aiel back to fight them (well, he intended to do it anyways, but intention isn't the same as action). With the possible exception of Ilian, they never attacked any country. And he didn't use them for the actual conquest even there (I guess you can say that he used them in Cairhien, but that was against the Shaido only. Can he help it if they then decide to hand him the city?).

[Lacanos]

I think it's an odd idea.

 

However, there would be no need for warders or aes sedai, normal people could do the job just as well - just good soldiers or whatever. After all, half the point is that the Seanchan are taking over countries in Randland and have relatively open borders. These people would just need to be clever and fast-thinking.

[Ashandarei]

I think it's an odd idea.

 

However, there would be no need for warders or aes sedai, normal people could do the job just as well - just good soldiers or whatever. After all, half the point is that the Seanchan are taking over countries in Randland and have relatively open borders. These people would just need to be clever and fast-thinking.

 

Personally, I agree that well trained individuals could do the job. That was actually my original intent, and like I said, covert agents such as these with the aid of fancloth(credit to morattolm for the idea) would be more than enough. I specifically didn't mention AS because it's too dangerous to let even a few get caught by the other side, too costly. As for Warders, they'd be great but as morattolm said they're bonded to AS who wouldn't let them just go on a mass mission of great danger such as this just because it's for the greater good ¹, not unless the respective AS got a personal advantage/gain out of it.

 

¹Heavy sarcasm intended.

[Mr Ares]

One point about this plan - not all sul'dam can be held by the a'dam. You have to have worked with damane for quite a while. There are far more sul'dam than damane. True, you would deny the Seanchan many experienced sul'dam, at the cost of giving them far more damane. Doesn't seem like a brilliant move to me. Lot of risk, lot of downside, not a huge amount of upside. Also, the Westlands need peace with the Seanchan - further conflict must be put aside until after TG, for the sake of the world.

[Mandro]

Bethamin and Ceta, now belong to mat, mat gave them a task, they will be the gateway towards the abolition of the Damane, wouldn't be top notch for even the empress to immediately override her consort, especially that "for him you will marry and no other." she is so thoroughly entwined with mat that she really doesn't have a choice unless she wants to kill the only man she will marry, and mat doesn't seem the type to be coy.