Crossroads of Twilight - Frustration

[Luckers]

So if someone here happens to love CoT (there must'be some people like that),

 

Hi. Well... no, love is a strong word. I enjoy it.

 

I'm also ending this line of discourse at this point. People are allowed to dislike or like what they want, vehemenately--so long as they are polite to their opposites in doing so. It is that addendum that is slowly being crossed, and therefore this discussion is over.

 

That being said, David Selig you are a woolheaded sheepherding fool for not liking Knife of Dreams. There's a knife in it--one made of dreams. Who could not like that?

 

Wait...

[Beidomon]

There are some just plain bad books in the middle of the series, no doubt. If you have made it through CoT, you're almost through the worst. The next book, Knife of Dreams, is also awful. But then the last two are better. Not up to the standard of the first five books, but better.

KoD is also awfull ??? General opinion seems it's one of the best. It's a matter of taste, people. Please just grow up and stop saying "this one is good, this one is bad". You totally have the right to believe what you want, but please don't try to make it an absolute truth. It's YOUR opinion, and no more than that.

 

What is this "general opinion" you speak of? According to Amazon.com, which is a far greater sampling than a fansite message board, Knife of Dreams is the 3rd most unpopular book in the series, ranked only higher than Path of Daggers (2nd) and Crossroads (1st). I tend to agree with that ranking. KoD was just Ok. It was obviously better than the stinker it followed, so maybe that's why some people "like" it. Kind of like the average chick in the bar who hangs out with... never mind, you know where I'm going with that.

[yoniy0]

Beidomon, do you not see that your comment above flies in the face of what Luckers previously requested?

Edited January 26, 2011 by yoniy0

[moratcorlm]

There are some just plain bad books in the middle of the series, no doubt. If you have made it through CoT, you're almost through the worst. The next book, Knife of Dreams, is also awful. But then the last two are better. Not up to the standard of the first five books, but better.

KoD is also awfull ??? General opinion seems it's one of the best. It's a matter of taste, people. Please just grow up and stop saying "this one is good, this one is bad". You totally have the right to believe what you want, but please don't try to make it an absolute truth. It's YOUR opinion, and no more than that.

What is this "general opinion" you speak of? According to Amazon.com, which is a far greater sampling than a fansite message board

Yet it's no less flawed a sample. A self-selected cadre of vocal people on the internet is not a reliable guide to popularity.

 

And, of course, 'but most people disagree with you' in your parent post is a fallacious argument in any case, since the grandparent comment was about quality, not popularity, and of course everyone's entitled to their own opinion about that.

 

Edit: As for mine, since I don't think I stated it in my earlier reply, I like most of COT, except for the infamous Shaido shenanigans; most of Perrin's chapters are unpleasant reading, though the torture bit is kind of fun. Egwene's chapters are par for her course, but the rest of it is at least decent – and in the case of Mat and Karede's chapters, excellent.

Edited January 26, 2011 by moratcorlm

[randsc]

There are some just plain bad books in the middle of the series, no doubt. If you have made it through CoT, you're almost through the worst. The next book, Knife of Dreams, is also awful. But then the last two are better. Not up to the standard of the first five books, but better.

KoD is also awfull ??? General opinion seems it's one of the best. It's a matter of taste, people. Please just grow up and stop saying "this one is good, this one is bad". You totally have the right to believe what you want, but please don't try to make it an absolute truth. It's YOUR opinion, and no more than that.

What is this "general opinion" you speak of? According to Amazon.com, which is a far greater sampling than a fansite message board

Yet it's no less flawed a sample. A self-selected cadre of vocal people on the internet is not a reliable guide to popularity.

 

And, of course, 'but most people disagree with you' in your parent post is a fallacious argument in any case, since the grandparent comment was about quality, not popularity, and of course everyone's entitled to their own opinion about that.

 

Edit: As for mine, since I don't think I stated it in my earlier reply, I like most of COT, except for the infamous Shaido shenanigans; most of Perrin's chapters are unpleasant reading, though the torture bit is kind of fun. Egwene's chapters are par for her course, but the rest of it is at least decent – and in the case of Mat and Karede's chapters, excellent.

 

 

I enjoyed Karede's scenes, and the Shaido hand-chopping (that was CoT, right?) I don't mean to suggest that CoT, or KoD for that matter, is valueless (hell, I have even re-read CoT). But I do think they rank low on the list.

Edited January 26, 2011 by randsc

[yoshinobu]

In my opinion Crossroads of Twilight was horrible the first time i read it. I did not like it at all. I wanted the story I loved so much to continue and that was simply not happining. Now, after I have read KoD and the books following it, I enjoy CoT on the rereads. Again this is just my opinion but I find that now that i know what happens next, I can enjoy the character dvelopment more. I still skip most of Perrins stuff though, except the hand chopping

[Beidomon]

Beidomon, do you not see that your comment above flies in the face of what Luckers previously requested?

 

Sorry, I didn't read to the bottom of the thread before posting. Certainly not trying to incite a flame war. I hereby retract my previous comments that Crossroads stunk, and Knife of Dreams was only marginally better.

[showerlilly]

This topic is one in which I think that those of us that have been reading the series for almost 20 years have an advantage.

 

On the one hand, for those that have come to the series relatively recently have the advantage of not having to wait between books, like we did. We had to wait almost 2 years between ACoS and TPoD then another 2 years for WH and another 2 years for CoT and 2 more for KoD. And some of those gaps we agonizingly long. Personally I remember the gap between WH and CoT especially well, because of the ending of WH (Rand Cleansing the OP, and the serious ownage of Forsaken that took place). So if you think you are frustrated by CoT (when you could put down one and then pick the next right up after), think about how we felt after waiting 26 months and then we get to send all that time reading about "tea drinking, bath taking, sniffing women...oh, you get the idea."

 

But at the same time, those 2 years gave us a hunger that someone who can read the series back-to-back doesn't necessarily have. I was unhappy with CoT on my first read through (because it was not giving me the info that I wanted when I wanted it), but I especially came to appreciate it while I was waiting for KoD to come out. Those two years in between books exposed me to so much really bad fantasy that I would go back and re-read the entire WoT series (including CoT) or reread one of the Eddings series, or Fiest's Riftwar. It was on those rereads that I came to appreciate CoT,

 

Because after all, bad WoT is still better than most good fantasy, and definitely better than other bad fantasy.

 

And I can say without a doubt that finishing the series will be worth it. Skip CoT if you must, but you may be a little lost in KoD if you do.

 

 

 

 

 

I completely agree. I have loved all of the books, simply because I was so hungry for any wot at all that it just amazed me to be able to examine the characters again.

[HighWiredSith]

I think my crisis is adverted, should complete COT by week's end and look forward to starting KOD.

 

The real question, will I re-read the series, particularly when it's been completed and I know the end. I am certainly going to reread the first six books. Frankly, the series has gone severely downhill since the epic Battle of Dumai's Wells and the conclusion of Lord of Chaos.

 

The books since have been a chore to complete. Yes, there are a few interesting moments here and there but frankly Perrin has been woefully under represented and the whole focus on who loves who and the odd love quadrangle between Rand and Min/Elaine/Avhienda just nauseates me. We go six books with really minimal romance for the most part and suddenly everybody is getting it on all the time while the world burns around them. The real saving grace of the last few books for me has been Matt. I can kind of see how Egwene's inaction is setting up event to happen later, just wondering when the Seanchan - who are the only group that seems to be actually doing something other than talking these days, are going to show up and ruin everyone's day.

[hankscorpio]

You will get a lot more Perrin later on. Without giving away spoilers, there's a decent amount of Perrin in Knife of Dreams, and while he's almost absent from The Gathering Storm, he is the most frequent PoV character in Towers of Midnight.

 

The pacing also picks up a great deal. In my opinion, Towers of Midnight actually has the fastest pacing of any book in the series.

[yoniy0]

The real saving grace of the last few books for me has been Matt.

Say, are you listening to the audio books, by any chance? Or perhaps reading a translated copy? Never mind, I agree that Mat's plot line is very good. It gets better in KoD, and it's pretty good in ToM as well.

 

I can kind of see how Egwene's inaction is setting up event to happen later

Hmm, let us know what you think once you've finished CoT. I must admit, I REALLY liked Egwene's chapters in KoD (and TGS, kudos for Brandon), and I didn't like her at all in LoC through CoT.

 

just wondering when the Seanchan - who are the only group that seems to be actually doing something other than talking these days, are going to show up and ruin everyone's day.

Try to guess what they're playing at before you start TGS (you can try to assess their intentions before KoD, I think, but that'll be harder). It'll be more fun that way.

[Twitchy]

I'm doing a re-read and at around page 300 of CoT I had to put the book down and go get Leigh Butler's summary on tor.com, used that to get rid of all the Egwene and Elayne and Perrin chapters, and then read the Mat chapters straight from the book. Was much easier that way!

[moratcorlm]

A pair of scissors or a razor blade would work better. So would the chapter summaries at the encyclopedia; much less ranting and cutesy familiarity involved.

[Isgrimner]

I think I may have liked CoT. Though it seems that the books from ACoS to CoT kind of blend to me now in that events that take place in them, I would have to sit and try to figure out which book it actually took place in.

 

I know Mat was in CoT so of course I liked his parts. I think I did feel a lot of frustration with all the Elayne chapters in one of the books. I really didn't care too much about the process her gaining Andoran crown. I recall getting to a new chapter and seeing it as an Elayne chapter and wanting to throw the book. That was really drawn out too much. I can't remember if the bulk this was mainly in CoT or PoD.

 

I know I liked KoD though.

[hankscorpio]

I think this is kind of funny, and at the same time a good way to see why most people don't like CoT.

 

Go to Wikipedia and read the plot summary. Five paragraphs:

 

Perrin contiues

Mat continues

Elayne continues

Rand rests

maintaining the siege

 

While it's still my least favorite book in the series by a pretty decent margin, I don't quite have the burning hatred that I did when I read it the first time. I think we all can agree waiting over 2 years for CoT after WH only to see the plot barely move forward was extremely frustrating.

 

I actually didn't buy KoD right away when it came out because of the frustration CoT gave me.

[Sleeper]

Don't worry, the series IMO picks back up with Knife of Dreams. Then it's (relatively) smooth sailing to AMoL.

[HighWiredSith]

So yeah, I finished COT last Friday. The fact that it ended on a cliffhanger only added insult to injury for me. I can't imagine having eagerly awaited this entry into the series for a year or more, reading it, and then having the prospect of waiting another year or two for something else. Ugh.

 

Not be deterred I jumped in KOD yesterday afternoon and yes, the first 20 pages already seem to have more action then the last four books. The trail between Galad and Valda was almost...refreshing. Finally swords are drawn, blood is spilled. It also hit me how RJ seems to have shortchanged the most interesting Children of the Light for most of the series so far. Should it bother me that the Children are so quick to abandon three thousand years of hatred of the Witches of Tar Valon because of a single defeat at the hands of the Seanchan? Then again, we are talking about religious zealots, right?

 

I take it they over published the hardback version of KOD. I've read the entire series thus far in paperback and purchased a paperback copy of KOD a while back. But, I was in my local discount store and saw hardback copies of KOD on sale for $2. How could I not buy one? I'm really more of a paperback reader. I hate bother with dust jackets and like something I can carry around to work, to the park, something I can have in my computer back to pop out at break time, restroom break, etc. So I put the hard cover version on my bookshelf and am reading from the paperback. My only problem, now I fee compelled to have the entire series in hardcover to go with my one hardcover KOD.

 

And BTW, the cover art for KOD is the worst since The Great Hunt. Is that supposed to be Rand on the cover? He looks like a truck driver circa 1977.

[David Selig]

It is supposed to be Perrin on the KoD cover, IIRC. Not that you can really tell with Sweet's covers...

[Beidomon]

This has been covered in another thread, but Sweet's covers are just horrific. First, there's the inaccuracies. Is the elf-looking dude supposed to be Loial on the cover of TGH? And for ToM, the Tower of Genji is made of stone and mortar? But I don't mind the inaccuracies so much as the fact that the people look so unbelievably freakin' fake and cartoonish from about Book 4 on. (Oddly, the people don't look too bad in the first 3 books). Basically, the people look like crappy fan art, and this dude is getting paid how much money per cover?

 

True story: If I'm taking one of these books out in public, like on a plane, I actually remove the dust jacket because anybody who doesn't know WoT would take one look and think "cheesy," "dungeons and dragons," or just plain "nerd."

 

All the griping aside, I'll always associate the hardcover illustrations with the series because that's how I bought them.

 

Edit: I just realized I made a pun. This has been "covered"... Ha!

Edited January 31, 2011 by Beidomon

[randsc]

The covers are awful. tEotW is probably the least bad, and it was bad enough to nearly keep me from picking it up.

 

The Great Hunt cover isn't actually bad, the colors are great, but the scene pictured never happens, which I don't like in book cover art.

 

Knife of Dreams just looks like a random bearded guy having a staff meeting. Possible the worst fantasy book cover art of all time.

Edited January 31, 2011 by randsc

[hankscorpio]

If they rereleased the entire series with the e-book covers I would repurchase all the books.

 

Loial on the cover of The Great Hunt is just awful.

[HighWiredSith]

If they rereleased the entire series with the e-book covers I would repurchase all the books.

 

Loial on the cover of The Great Hunt is just awful.

 

I agree, some of the ebook covers literally made me gasp when I first saw them - or, as RJ would put it, "I laid eyes upon the ebook covers and my draw dropped, with fists planted firmly on hips I sniffed and broke into a broad smile that touched my eyes which hinted of satisfaction..."

 

The first time I saw the ebook cover for KoD I said, out loud mind you, "OMG, there is Rand Al'Thor! Finally someone has captured the Rand Al'Thor in my head! Finally!"

[Beidomon]

The first time I saw the ebook cover for KoD I said, out loud mind you, "OMG, there is Rand Al'Thor! Finally someone has captured the Rand Al'Thor in my head! Finally!"

 

I agree. KoD ebook cover was a very good Rand depiction. I also really liked the "younger" Rand on the TDR ebook cover. However, the Rands on the TEotW and WH ebook covers... not so much. TEothW ebook Rand looks like he has brown hair. WH ebook Rand looks a bit too anime-ish.

[A2597]

If they rereleased the entire series with the e-book covers I would repurchase all the books.

 

Loial on the cover of The Great Hunt is just awful.

 

I agree, some of the ebook covers literally made me gasp when I first saw them - or, as RJ would put it, "I laid eyes upon the ebook covers and my draw dropped, with fists planted firmly on hips I sniffed and broke into a broad smile that touched my eyes which hinted of satisfaction..."

 

The first time I saw the ebook cover for KoD I said, out loud mind you, "OMG, there is Rand Al'Thor! Finally someone has captured the Rand Al'Thor in my head! Finally!"

 

 

It's funny, because that's how I saw Rand as well...

[Songstress]

If they rereleased the entire series with the e-book covers I would repurchase all the books.

 

Loial on the cover of The Great Hunt is just awful.

 

Ditto.