Rands dream of Lanfear

[Guest curator]

Hey thanks to the lengthy winter break i was finally able to finish this wonderful novel. I was wondering what people thought about the significance of Rands dream was when he dreamed of Lanfear being tortured. Do you think it was a trick? Any significance at all? Just want some opinions :)

[AvroChris]

Almost certainly a trick - her being tortured I can well imagine, her being able to escape Moridin in some way and push her way into his dreams seems less likely. As Rand and Moridin seem to have some form of access to each other's dreams through their odd bond it makes deliberate manipulation by the Shadow to be more probable in my eyes.

[moratcorlm]

Obviously huge significance, and obviously a trap, but who knows whether Cyndane is actually in on it. Possibly she is sincere.

[Mandro]

cyndane has almost universally been depicted as angry and resentful. She still serves the darkone, but she is being tormented by Moridin. I think the dream was an accident, like the other one, based on his link to morridin. No trap, no ultimate revelation I think. Maybe just a tool to see the humanity of LTT before he was Rand? It was a rather throw away scene.

[moratcorlm]

Cyndane hasn't had a POV in 130 days, and hasn't been depicted at all in nearly a hundred. I'm not sure we can count on her situation or motives being the same as they were at last sight, nor her feelings in WH35 when she feels Rand beginning to enact her plan with someone else being lasting.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Before ToM came out I anticipated that the book would address some of the mysteries surrounding Mierin/Lanfear/Cyndane (whom I'll mostly just call "Mierin"). Well, I was half-right: I was wrong that ToM would be the book where all of this stuff gets brought out into the open, but I was right that there are such mysteries; Cyndane isn't just going to become a throwaway resurrected Forsaken like the 'Gars. I think most of us suspected this, and her cliffhanger in ToM goes a long way toward confirming it. I think it's a very significant scene.

 

This book has inspired me to do a lot of thinking about what the Last Battle will actually entail. The premise of armies confronting each other for a military victory seems extraneous now to any confrontation between Rand and the Dark One. Rand can move at will through armies of Shadowspawn and other nasties. He doesn't need an army to back him up. The only purpose for a Light army would be to defend against military actions by the Shadow, either ahead of their effort to conquer the world or in reprisal to Rand's movements toward Shayol Ghul. As an instrument of true victory, I don't think the military aspect will matter.

 

Instead, I think Rand's personal relationships with the big antagonists will matter the most. At this point, the biggest remaining antagonists in WoT are the Dark One, Fain, Moridin, Shaidar Haran, Mierin, and, if we take BS at his word, Demandred. Rand himself has had notable dealings with only some of these, most notably Moridin, but also Fain and Mierin. I think these three are the ones who we should be paying the most attention to on the Shadow side.

 

I used to think that Mierin would abandon the Shadow and make good on her ambition to try and join with Rand—not necessarily with the Light so much as Rand himself. That's what her storyline had always seemed to be leading up to. But I have since learned that RJ didn't consider Mierin to be a candidate for abandoning the Shadow, and he even specifically declared that she wasn't under some kind of duress like the 13x13 trick. He didn't say it outright, but he seemed to rule out the possibility that Mierin would have some kind of redemption of character.

 

I took RJ at his word, which forced me to conclude that Mierin will remain an antagonist through the end of her storyline. That, in turn, left me to think about how her role as an antagonist would play out. She is likely not going to be some kind of military leader, and doesn't have much of a relationship with any of the Light characters besides Rand. Some people have predicted another showdown between her and Moiraine, but I just don't see it happening. Moiraine attacked Mierin, not the other way around, and if anyone has a score to settle it'd be Mierin, not Moiraine. If Mierin's plight at the end of ToM is sincere, then she is past the point of wanting to "settle scores." If it's insincere, then she is clearly focusing all of her attention on beguiling Rand. Either way, the arrows all point to her storyline being intertwined with Rand's in AMoL.

 

I honestly don't know if her plight is sincere or not. I've seen people jump to the conclusion that she is faking it, but there is no basis for doing so, because there is no definitive evidence either way and both possibilities are plausible. This same dearth of facts makes it very hard to make an educated guess about the exact way in which Mierin will be important in AMoL, but it seems almost inevitable that she will be a key player in some fashion.

 

BS called Demandred the biggest player for the Shadow, which makes me think that both Moridin and Mierin have some other, higher fate ahead of them. BS also said that Mierin questions are mostly going to be RAFO until AMoL, which is a pretty big hint in itself.

[AnimusMessor]

Well, Rand is sleeping and has a connection to Moridin. Moridin might be in a pocket outside the pattern just punishing Lanfear. If you think about it, Lanfear went to the shadow because of LT. I think her goals throughout the entire series was ways to get LT back while keeping the Shadow hierarchy satisfied. I dont think she has any real motives of conquering, she saw the shadow as a way of getting LT back. If she cant be "The One" then she'll be "The BITCH!"

[Bluedust9]

Definitely a trap, now the question is if Lanfear is in on it or not.

[Ashenn]

There is a great amount of assumption going on. Whether or not it's a trap is one assumption. However, if it is a trap another assumption people are making is who is setting the trap.

 

Mordeth was making his way through the blight at the start of the book on a mission. He wants Rand, no secret there. So far we've seen nothing the shadow can throw at him that can stop his cunning and power. In fact, if Shadar Logoth hadn't eaten itself, it might have been able to replace the shadow with it's own ancient evil corruption. It's very possible Mordeth is aware of Lanfear's connection to Rand, and she is being truly tortured by him to get Rand attention. Look at the imagery of the scene. It's not entirely representative of what we've seen Moridin use. It is however consistent with imagery Mordeth has used. Attacking people Rand cares about is also Fain/Mordeths MO. Perhaps, he feels he underestimated Rands care for the Two Rivers and is now looking for something closer. He also knows it wont be too far out of Rand's way this time.

 

I think it is entirely possible that Mordeth has captured Lanfear and is torturing her to get to Rand. I'm not saying this is the case, but that scene was way too "predictable" for Moridin than what this series has shown thus far by both authors.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

There is a great amount of assumption going on. Whether or not it's a trap is one assumption. However, if it is a trap another assumption people are making is who is setting the trap.

 

Mordeth was making his way through the blight at the start of the book on a mission. He wants Rand, no secret there. So far we've seen nothing the shadow can throw at him that can stop his cunning and power. In fact, if Shadar Logoth hadn't eaten itself, it might have been able to replace the shadow with it's own ancient evil corruption. It's very possible Mordeth is aware of Lanfear's connection to Rand, and she is being truly tortured by him to get Rand attention. Look at the imagery of the scene. It's not entirely representative of what we've seen Moridin use. It is however consistent with imagery Mordeth has used. Attacking people Rand cares about is also Fain/Mordeths MO. Perhaps, he feels he underestimated Rands care for the Two Rivers and is now looking for something closer. He also knows it wont be too far out of Rand's way this time.

 

I think it is entirely possible that Mordeth has captured Lanfear and is torturing her to get to Rand. I'm not saying this is the case, but that scene was way too "predictable" for Moridin than what this series has shown thus far by both authors.

 

 

I thought the Rand obsession was solely Fain? Ever since the weaker Fain body is finally getting occupied by the Ordeth soul there seems to be a distinct lack of interest in Rand. We can see this insofar as the persona starting to call himself "Mordeth" and heading northwards to slaughter all shadowspawn. Ordeth quite possibly was the most acerbic and passionate foe of the Shadow. It would make sense that he would go on rampage against the Shadow and completely ignores Rand who is well south of the Blight.

[Ashandarei]

There is a great amount of assumption going on. Whether or not it's a trap is one assumption. However, if it is a trap another assumption people are making is who is setting the trap.

 

Mordeth was making his way through the blight at the start of the book on a mission. He wants Rand, no secret there. So far we've seen nothing the shadow can throw at him that can stop his cunning and power. In fact, if Shadar Logoth hadn't eaten itself, it might have been able to replace the shadow with it's own ancient evil corruption. It's very possible Mordeth is aware of Lanfear's connection to Rand, and she is being truly tortured by him to get Rand attention. Look at the imagery of the scene. It's not entirely representative of what we've seen Moridin use. It is however consistent with imagery Mordeth has used. Attacking people Rand cares about is also Fain/Mordeths MO. Perhaps, he feels he underestimated Rands care for the Two Rivers and is now looking for something closer. He also knows it wont be too far out of Rand's way this time.

 

I think it is entirely possible that Mordeth has captured Lanfear and is torturing her to get to Rand. I'm not saying this is the case, but that scene was way too "predictable" for Moridin than what this series has shown thus far by both authors.

 

 

I thought the Rand obsession was solely Fain? Ever since the weaker Fain body is finally getting occupied by the Ordeth soul there seems to be a distinct lack of interest in Rand. We can see this insofar as the persona starting to call himself "Mordeth" and heading northwards to slaughter all shadowspawn. Ordeth quite possibly was the most acerbic and passionate foe of the Shadow. It would make sense that he would go on rampage against the Shadow and completely ignores Rand who is well south of the Blight.

 

I don't think the Cyndane dream was in any way related to Mordeth for a couple reasons. Firsly, TAR and Dreams have never been Fain/Mordeth's domain and he's never been seen in them(IIRC). Secondly, he doesn't need to set a trap for Rand, he already knows exactly where Rand will be at the end- Shayol Ghul. That's where he's heading, through the Blight, in the following scene.

 

No matter. Onward. The time had come to kill al'Thor.

It saddened him that the hunt must end. But there was no longer a reason for a hunt. You didn't hunt something when you knew exactly here it was going to be. You merely showed up to meet it. Like an old friend. A dear, beloved old friend that you were going to stab through the eye, open up at the gut and consume by handfuls while drinking his blood. That was the proper way to treat friends.

It was an honor.

 

Lastly, as we can see in this scene, Rand is still most definitely a priority for Mordeth/Fain/Ordeith.

[Ashenn]

There is a great amount of assumption going on. Whether or not it's a trap is one assumption. However, if it is a trap another assumption people are making is who is setting the trap.

 

Mordeth was making his way through the blight at the start of the book on a mission. He wants Rand, no secret there. So far we've seen nothing the shadow can throw at him that can stop his cunning and power. In fact, if Shadar Logoth hadn't eaten itself, it might have been able to replace the shadow with it's own ancient evil corruption. It's very possible Mordeth is aware of Lanfear's connection to Rand, and she is being truly tortured by him to get Rand attention. Look at the imagery of the scene. It's not entirely representative of what we've seen Moridin use. It is however consistent with imagery Mordeth has used. Attacking people Rand cares about is also Fain/Mordeths MO. Perhaps, he feels he underestimated Rands care for the Two Rivers and is now looking for something closer. He also knows it wont be too far out of Rand's way this time.

 

I think it is entirely possible that Mordeth has captured Lanfear and is torturing her to get to Rand. I'm not saying this is the case, but that scene was way too "predictable" for Moridin than what this series has shown thus far by both authors.

 

 

I thought the Rand obsession was solely Fain? Ever since the weaker Fain body is finally getting occupied by the Ordeth soul there seems to be a distinct lack of interest in Rand. We can see this insofar as the persona starting to call himself "Mordeth" and heading northwards to slaughter all shadowspawn. Ordeth quite possibly was the most acerbic and passionate foe of the Shadow. It would make sense that he would go on rampage against the Shadow and completely ignores Rand who is well south of the Blight.

 

I don't think the Cyndane dream was in any way related to Mordeth for a couple reasons. Firsly, TAR and Dreams have never been Fain/Mordeth's domain and he's never been seen in them(IIRC). Secondly, he doesn't need to set a trap for Rand, he already knows exactly where Rand will be at the end- Shayol Ghul. That's where he's heading, through the Blight, in the following scene.

 

No matter. Onward. The time had come to kill al'Thor.

It saddened him that the hunt must end. But there was no longer a reason for a hunt. You didn't hunt something when you knew exactly here it was going to be. You merely showed up to meet it. Like an old friend. A dear, beloved old friend that you were going to stab through the eye, open up at the gut and consume by handfuls while drinking his blood. That was the proper way to treat friends.

It was an honor.

 

Lastly, as we can see in this scene, Rand is still most definitely a priority for Mordeth/Fain/Ordeith.

 

 

I agree TAR and Dreams has not been used in association with Fain/Mordeth. However, it was Lanfear that was reaching out to Rand and who is definitely is known for using TAR and Dreams. In fact, I think no matter trap or not that was how she'd attempt to communicate with Rand. The appearance of the Dream could be his fouled impression reflected in her mind.

 

Me saying "He also knows it wont be too far out of Rand's way this time." is my way of saying he knows exactly where Rand will be. It's not that Mordeth needs the trap to lure Rand to a place, but to divert Rands attention to him.

[Ashenn]

There is a great amount of assumption going on. Whether or not it's a trap is one assumption. However, if it is a trap another assumption people are making is who is setting the trap.

 

Mordeth was making his way through the blight at the start of the book on a mission. He wants Rand, no secret there. So far we've seen nothing the shadow can throw at him that can stop his cunning and power. In fact, if Shadar Logoth hadn't eaten itself, it might have been able to replace the shadow with it's own ancient evil corruption. It's very possible Mordeth is aware of Lanfear's connection to Rand, and she is being truly tortured by him to get Rand attention. Look at the imagery of the scene. It's not entirely representative of what we've seen Moridin use. It is however consistent with imagery Mordeth has used. Attacking people Rand cares about is also Fain/Mordeths MO. Perhaps, he feels he underestimated Rands care for the Two Rivers and is now looking for something closer. He also knows it wont be too far out of Rand's way this time.

 

I think it is entirely possible that Mordeth has captured Lanfear and is torturing her to get to Rand. I'm not saying this is the case, but that scene was way too "predictable" for Moridin than what this series has shown thus far by both authors.

 

 

I thought the Rand obsession was solely Fain? Ever since the weaker Fain body is finally getting occupied by the Ordeth soul there seems to be a distinct lack of interest in Rand. We can see this insofar as the persona starting to call himself "Mordeth" and heading northwards to slaughter all shadowspawn. Ordeth quite possibly was the most acerbic and passionate foe of the Shadow. It would make sense that he would go on rampage against the Shadow and completely ignores Rand who is well south of the Blight.

 

 

I agree with your belief about Mordeths intention in regards to the shadow. I suspect his mission has much to do with long unfinished business. However, Fain merged with Mordeth and there were hints earlier about Mordeth's dislike of the influence. I suspect Fain's obsession with Rand has merged with Mordeth when he was consumed. He may still be obsessed with Rand and the shadow, and is trying to "kill two birds with one stone."

[Twitchy]

Fain is in the Blight, headed to Shayol Ghul because he knows that Rand will be there. There's a direct quote saying something like that, I can't get off my lazy ass to grab my book right now, but it's something of the sort saying how there's no need to hunt your enemy when you know exactly where he will be headed.

 

There's no need for Fain to tempt Rand into following him, or find out where he is going, or direct his attentions to him, because Fain will be exactly where Rand is going. And as for wanting to draw his attention to him, why the hell would he want that? If Rand doesn't realize that Fain is there, he could easily pop out from nowhere and stab Rand in the back. It's not like Fain is an honorable guy waiting to duel Rand. He just wants him dead.

 

... And to feast on his insides.

[thevillagecouncil]

do you also remember moiraine telling mat and thom that a main came to see her in the ToG and said she was not the one he was looking for? I believe that it was moridin that came for lanfear and took her away. how in the world could fain have gotten his hands on her?

[htarcan]

I hope Lews Therin was there to yell inside rand's head that its a trap.

lanfear has no reason to be punished like that by the Dark One.

 

besides, u remember what shadar told to graendal? someone else will replace her. maybe he ment lanfear

[Entreri]

It will be interesting seeing what kind of trap it is.

 

Since Rand now has the entirety of LTT's OP knowledge, skill, raw Power, Lanfear even at full strength would be a merely be an insect compared to him, outside of TAR at least.

 

Ishamael no doubt has something sinister for him. Demandred is merely an almost LTT, and there is no way he would defeat him one-on-one, unless he also had a sinister trap

 

 

Weak jealous posers all.

[Bluedust9]

do you also remember moiraine telling mat and thom that a main came to see her in the ToG and said she was not the one he was looking for? I believe that it was moridin that came for lanfear and took her away. how in the world could fain have gotten his hands on her?

 

I know this is Off Topic, but I believe it was Moridin too, or maybe Slayer on behalf of Moridin. Reason I believe this is BS made it a point in a Q&A to say the Finns have a *ton* of *angreal, and then what do we learn in ToM but that Moridin has a huge cache of *angreal now.

 

Just a thought I had.

[newimperium]

There's something no one here seems to have considered, and I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned before now.

 

This has GOT to have something to do with the 3 wishes that Lanfear received when she fell through the stone doorway.

 

Why? Because just pages earlier, we find out that Moiraine AND Lanfear both had 3 wishes granted to them because they were covered by the agreement. It's too coincidental to find out such a big revelation about Moiraine and Lanfear, and now both of them are suddenly back onto the scene. Now, frustratingly, Moiraine refused to reveal what her other two wishes were (the third being retaining the angreal). But what about Lanfear? We have no idea what she might have asked for, but wouldn't she, above all else, want LTT back for herself, or perhaps at least to get revenge upon him?

 

Maybe it's still a trick. Or maybe she asked for the ability to enter Rand's dreams, and she really IS in pain and wants his help. Either way, the 3 things that she wished for are going to be IMPORTANT. We suspect that Moridin was the one who came in and rescued her. Are we still in general agreement that Lanfear is now Cyndane? If so she's obviously in Moridin's grasp and is either acting under his control or is trying to get out. But if she's not Cyndane... Well, anything could happen. But her three wishes have got something to do with this, mark me.

 

Josh

[garion]

Not going to lie here but when I read this part I thought Admiral Ackbar was going to show up and proclaim,"IT'S A TRAP!"

[Canis Rufus]

 

 

 

Happy to oblige

[Ashandarei]

There's something no one here seems to have considered, and I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned before now.

 

This has GOT to have something to do with the 3 wishes that Lanfear received when she fell through the stone doorway.

 

Why? Because just pages earlier, we find out that Moiraine AND Lanfear both had 3 wishes granted to them because they were covered by the agreement. It's too coincidental to find out such a big revelation about Moiraine and Lanfear, and now both of them are suddenly back onto the scene. Now, frustratingly, Moiraine refused to reveal what her other two wishes were (the third being retaining the angreal). But what about Lanfear? We have no idea what she might have asked for, but wouldn't she, above all else, want LTT back for herself, or perhaps at least to get revenge upon him?

 

Maybe it's still a trick. Or maybe she asked for the ability to enter Rand's dreams, and she really IS in pain and wants his help. Either way, the 3 things that she wished for are going to be IMPORTANT. We suspect that Moridin was the one who came in and rescued her. Are we still in general agreement that Lanfear is now Cyndane? If so she's obviously in Moridin's grasp and is either acting under his control or is trying to get out. But if she's not Cyndane... Well, anything could happen. But her three wishes have got something to do with this, mark me.

 

Josh

 

I really want to see that part, could you provide the chapter?

 

EDIT:

 

Found it.

"I passed through the ter'angreal," [Moiraine] said. "The ancient treaty held for both of us, though with the doorway destroyed, there was no simple return. I knew from... previous events that I would not escape unless you came for me, no matter what my demands were or how carefully I worded them. So I used them for the best."

[AuldGoldBeard]

"I have a better plan, more bold. You will be impressed. Al'Thor thinks I am dead, and so I can--"

"No..." Shaidar Haran continued. "This opportunity has been given to another."

 

 

Ten pages later, enter screaming Cyndane. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to connect the dots here.

 

 

 

As for the wishes, I sincerely doubt they last past Cindy's death.

[newimperium]

"I have a better plan, more bold. You will be impressed. Al'Thor thinks I am dead, and so I can--"

"No..." Shaidar Haran continued. "This opportunity has been given to another."

 

 

Ten pages later, enter screaming Cyndane. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to connect the dots here.

 

 

 

As for the wishes, I sincerely doubt they last past Cindy's death.

 

 

Don't be so sure. Mat died too, technically, when he was hanged on the Tree of Life, and Rand revived him. He also sort of "died" when he was killed by Rahvin and saved by Balefire. Of course, I suppose this all depends on what Lanfear had wished for.

 

Secondly, there's no reason to take Shaidar Haran at his word.... In other words, it doesnt' mean it's a trick that Cyndane is volunteering for... She may still be being tortured and looking for Rand as a way out. She's Mindtrapped, and a prisoner. It's not like she'd have much choice whether or not to take this great "opportunity". The whole series is chock-full of Forsaken and Darkfriends being forced to do stuff they don't really want to do, and always looking for a way out.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Duh. Mat got physical objects. They're not going to combust spontaneously the moment he dies. That has absolutely no relevance or bearing on Cindy.

 

 

Name three examples of a Forsaken undertaking a task at the Dark One's instance (i.e. not being mind-trapped, raped, etc.) that he/she didn't want to do.