"You will kneel, Lews Therin!"

[yoshinobu]

I think that perhaps the reason Moridin could not destroy the patter, yet Rand can might be tied to the fact that Rand is the Lights Champion. The creator would oppose Moridin (or any other powerful chanaller, say Lanfear). But Rand either cannot or will not oppose should he ever choose that path. Sorry for any bad spelling.

[asudlow]

I wonder if Rand could be 13x13'd then?

 

I suspect not, as he is the creator's champion after all.

[Hadilmir]

Where did the notion that the Dragon Reborn is the Creator's champion come from?

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

 

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from ... creating ... the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

Guys, he's the Wheel's champion...

[draconian]

Where did the notion that the Dragon Reborn is the Creator's champion come from?

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

 

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from ... creating ... the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

Guys, he's the Wheel's champion...

if thats so then who said "only the choosen one can do what must be done" back in book 1?

[Hadilmir]

if thats so then who said "only the choosen one can do what must be done" back in book 1?

It doesn't matter who said it. The voice said the Chosen One, there is complete ambiguity. With that instance providing no clear answer the rest of the series must be examined, and I still don't see how anyone could read the whole series and still think Rand is the Creator's Champion.

[bobarose]

The Foresaken think they will live after the finale battle.That is why they would not destroy the pattern.

[fikkie77]

The Foresaken think they will live after the finale battle.That is why they would not destroy the pattern.

All except Moridin.

[OneOfTheBand]

My theory on the Pattern is that is it is like a grand macroscopic version of Quantum Mechanics. If there is any probability that the pattern will continue, the pattern will find that probability and continue.

 

It appears that it is impossible for the pattern to be destroyed unless the Light's champion does it. It is not clear this is but you can see this through the myriad parallel worlds that exist in the WoT. In large numbers of these Rand dies but the pattern continues.

 

The DO knows this hence all his efforts are aimed at turning Rand. As a side note it is clear that the taint is a huge part of his efforts to be freed. Without the taint, Rand would never have reached the level of insanity required.

 

Also BTW it is unlikely that DO dominated world would achieve the level of cooperation/technology required to build their own CK's. It would be everyone for themselves and technology would rapidly go backwards.

[Lacanos]

Sorry, a lot of people in this thread seem to be confused or missing one point.

 

While I don't deny that it's probably necessary for the Dragon to be "turned" for the DO to win, we are told that this has happened before and the wheel wasn't destroyed on these occasions. Therefore I'm not completely convinced.

[fikkie77]

So... you think that Ishy told the truth? I certainly don't believe him!

[blazetheearth]

Sorry, a lot of people in this thread seem to be confused or missing one point.

 

While I don't deny that it's probably necessary for the Dragon to be "turned" for the DO to win, we are told that this has happened before and the wheel wasn't destroyed on these occasions. Therefore I'm not completely convinced.

 

Actually, as Rand told Ishy, the Dragon has never turned to the Shadow. Rand knew it in TGH. He tells Ishy so during the fight at the end of that book. That in "1000 lives" he had never served the Shadow. He has died by the Shadow's hands many, many times, but he had never went over to the DO's side.

[Lacanos]

Sorry, a lot of people in this thread seem to be confused or missing one point.

 

While I don't deny that it's probably necessary for the Dragon to be "turned" for the DO to win, we are told that this has happened before and the wheel wasn't destroyed on these occasions. Therefore I'm not completely convinced.

 

Actually, as Rand told Ishy, the Dragon has never turned to the Shadow. Rand knew it in TGH. He tells Ishy so during the fight at the end of that book. That in "1000 lives" he had never served the Shadow. He has died by the Shadow's hands many, many times, but he had never went over to the DO's side.

That's an interesting point, one I had forgotten. I'm almost ready to concede the point now, except the one qualm I have left is that he was telling the other forsaken this, not just Rand. He's told the other Forsaken that the DO wants to take Rand and put him above them, as he has before. This could well be a lie, but to what end?

[fikkie77]

Ishy might not even have consciously lied. He was insane into the bone and might just have been dellusional.

[threadnecromancer]

Sorry, a lot of people in this thread seem to be confused or missing one point.

 

While I don't deny that it's probably necessary for the Dragon to be "turned" for the DO to win, we are told that this has happened before and the wheel wasn't destroyed on these occasions. Therefore I'm not completely convinced.

 

Actually, as Rand told Ishy, the Dragon has never turned to the Shadow. Rand knew it in TGH. He tells Ishy so during the fight at the end of that book. That in "1000 lives" he had never served the Shadow. He has died by the Shadow's hands many, many times, but he had never went over to the DO's side.

 

But did not the author say that the Lights champion had been turned on occasion but in those situations it came out as a draw? I seem to recall him saying that on the TOR website around the time Knife of Dreams was released.

[blazetheearth]

Here's 2 quotes from RJ on the subject:

 

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

The first one comes from a Dragoncon Q&A in 2005, while the second comes from a tarvalon.net Q&A in 2003. I guess we get to pick which one we want to believe. Both were directly from RJ, not BS.

[FarShainMael]

If Ishamael had killed Rand in any book something would have happened to bring him back.

 

This much is I think almost certain - even if not in the timescale of the books, if the Dragon dies or turns much as the Forsaken (excluding Moridin) did, there's still another Dragon when the Wheel turns again. The Dark One must be getting pretty bored of this by now.

 

The Dragon did die - as LTT. And the DO did not win. Therefore, It needs something other than the Dragon/Reborn's death in order to win.

 

Note further that Ishy did not kill LTT, though he could have done so easily. LTT killed himself, and Ishy wasn't at all happy about it!

[Elan Tedronai]

rand is just lucky he found it that aiel place...rhudiean or something. If ishy had that access key,well destroy the pattern and game over. No need for the dragon reborn is there.

 

Unless you account for the Pattern aiming for its own continuation...? What's to say Ishmael/Moridin could have even touched the Access Keys without being struck by lightning or a falling brick? What's to say Rand isn't outside the Pattern's direct influence, causing him to be the only mortal to be able to work against its will if he so chooses? There's far too many explanations as to why anyone else destroying the Pattern would not work.

 

 

don't you love that? that any possibility of the bad guys winning is rendered moot by the pattern's 'will'? sure i agree with you in a way. If ishy had that access key, jordan would have brought some inane plot fail mechanism to stop it from happening.

 

 

Here's the issue the way i see it. If i was shaitan, i need someone or something to break that prison. Last time lanfear did an ok job in drilling through. But i need that hole to be bigger. Big enough so that i can squeeze my way through and rip it apart.

 

if lanfear and beidomon can rip a hole through the shaitan's prison which by the way the pattern did'nt prevent (oh gosh!) then what's stopping a circle of 13 forsaken fom ripping it out completely and letting him free?

 

 

Like i said, answering the OP's question, it was the only way to explain how an uneducated farmboy can beat legends from another age. If these baddies can cause so much headache for the great Lews Therin Telamon during his prime, it begs the question, why is a simple farmer able to beat them time and time again?

 

Answer: Jordan plays hide and seek with his characters. And then calls it the pattern's will

[Fel]

Sorry, a lot of people in this thread seem to be confused or missing one point.

 

While I don't deny that it's probably necessary for the Dragon to be "turned" for the DO to win, we are told that this has happened before and the wheel wasn't destroyed on these occasions. Therefore I'm not completely convinced.

 

Actually, as Rand told Ishy, the Dragon has never turned to the Shadow. Rand knew it in TGH. He tells Ishy so during the fight at the end of that book. That in "1000 lives" he had never served the Shadow. He has died by the Shadow's hands many, many times, but he had never went over to the DO's side.

 

But did not the author say that the Lights champion had been turned on occasion but in those situations it came out as a draw? I seem to recall him saying that on the TOR website around the time Knife of Dreams was released.

 

There is a big difference between being turned to the Dark One (a la your run of the mill Forsaken) and going all crazy and trying to end the world itself (a la Moridin or Rand pre-VoG)

 

I can believe that the Dragon turned in one of the previous infinite incarnations of this age, but its a much bigger step to turn so nuts about htings that you want to end reality itself. I think if the dragon turns, the next age is a dark one until he is reborn again to fight what he wrought (or until one of the other heroes of the horn is born to kill him).

 

To truly free the Dark One, though, the Dragon has to destroy reality (totally an opinion on this one, but it seems to be the only one that is consistent with the actions/statements in the books).

[Elan Tedronai]

to free the dark one, you need to rip open his prison. you know what lanfear and co attempted to do. No need for someone destroying reality is there?

[Fel]

to free the dark one, you need to rip open his prison. you know what lanfear and co attempted to do. No need for someone destroying reality is there?

Lanfear poked a hole in his prison, not ripped it open. He can reach through the hole, but he is not "free".

 

Ishmael/Moridin has stated at some point that the DO needs to destroy the pattern to win.

 

Basically, it seems that the pattern IS the prison of the dark one. there is a hole in the prison that he can reach through, but it is still holding him captive. To truly get free, he has to destroy the prison (i.e. the pattern). I postulated that the pattern was set up so that only the Dragon could destroy it, which is why the DO was trying to drive him mad.

[Elan Tedronai]

to free the dark one, you need to rip open his prison. you know what lanfear and co attempted to do. No need for someone destroying reality is there?

Lanfear poked a hole in his prison, not ripped it open. He can reach through the hole, but he is not "free".

 

Ishmael/Moridin has stated at some point that the DO needs to destroy the pattern to win.

 

Basically, it seems that the pattern IS the prison of the dark one. there is a hole in the prison that he can reach through, but it is still holding him captive. To truly get free, he has to destroy the prison (i.e. the pattern). I postulated that the pattern was set up so that only the Dragon could destroy it, which is why the DO was trying to drive him mad.

 

wasn't one the dangers of lews therin's plan for sealing the bore not focusing the seals properly would lead to a complete rippage of the dark one's prison? risks he himself acknowledged at the time?

[asha man]

My theory on the Pattern is that is it is like a grand macroscopic version of Quantum Mechanics. If there is any probability that the pattern will continue, the pattern will find that probability and continue.

 

It appears that it is impossible for the pattern to be destroyed unless the Light's champion does it. It is not clear this is but you can see this through the myriad parallel worlds that exist in the WoT. In large numbers of these Rand dies but the pattern continues.

 

The DO knows this hence all his efforts are aimed at turning Rand. As a side note it is clear that the taint is a huge part of his efforts to be freed. Without the taint, Rand would never have reached the level of insanity required.

 

Also BTW it is unlikely that DO dominated world would achieve the level of cooperation/technology required to build their own CK's. It would be everyone for themselves and technology would rapidly go backwards.

 

Agreed. That's what I was trying to get at, with a few extra details. Well done.

[Loophole]

If Ishamael had killed Rand in any book something would have happened to bring him back.

 

This much is I think almost certain - even if not in the timescale of the books, if the Dragon dies or turns much as the Forsaken (excluding Moridin) did, there's still another Dragon when the Wheel turns again. The Dark One must be getting pretty bored of this by now.

 

The Dragon did die - as LTT. And the DO did not win. Therefore, It needs something other than the Dragon/Reborn's death in order to win.

 

Note further that Ishy did not kill LTT, though he could have done so easily. LTT killed himself, and Ishy wasn't at all happy about it!

 

LTT was the dragon.

 

Rand is the dragon reborn, same soul, but serving different purposes. LTT was never meant to fight the last battle like Rand is, not in his incarnation.

[Crossroad]

Mordin will switch sides at the final battle allowing the light to create and seal the breach with all magical elements. IMO hehehe LOL

[fikkie77]

If Ishamael had killed Rand in any book something would have happened to bring him back.

 

This much is I think almost certain - even if not in the timescale of the books, if the Dragon dies or turns much as the Forsaken (excluding Moridin) did, there's still another Dragon when the Wheel turns again. The Dark One must be getting pretty bored of this by now.

 

The Dragon did die - as LTT. And the DO did not win. Therefore, It needs something other than the Dragon/Reborn's death in order to win.

 

Note further that Ishy did not kill LTT, though he could have done so easily. LTT killed himself, and Ishy wasn't at all happy about it!

 

LTT was the dragon.

 

Rand is the dragon reborn, same soul, but serving different purposes. LTT was never meant to fight the last battle like Rand is, not in his incarnation.

We actually don't know that. LTT might have been foretold as well. That could also have been by the title 'Dragon Reborn', which changed to 'Dragon' when he gained his own reputation (which also happened to Rand, who is called 'Dragon' much more often than 'Dragon Reborn'). We actually have one clue to that being true: why else would LTT have been called after a creature that didn't exist in that age?