An idle thought

[firstfishman]

This has probably been posted somewhere before.. What if the Seanchan profecy about the Dragon kneeling to the Crystal throne true?

 

This is how I think it would go down.

 

Fortuona dies by the hands of a Black sister after one of Moridin's lap-dog Chosen removes her A'dam. Mat becomes the first Seanchan Emperor since Arther Hawkwing. Rand kneels to Mat and gives him complete control over all military matters regarding The Last Battle.

 

On a side note.

 

Mat removes all damane a'dam as he did with Jolene when Tuon slapped one on her. Cant remember exactly what he said but it was something like, "I cant leave any women to that fate". We all know Mat keeps his word.

 

 

 

Time for the trolls to flame away.

[Lacanos]

I'm guessing this is just your fantasy? Although it's not set in stone, the fact that in Aviendha's visions in Rhuidean she saw there as being a Seanchan Empress at the last battle time is pretty suggestive.

[David Selig]

Jordan was planning a WoT Outrigger novel in which Mat and Tuon would be reclaiming the Seanchan continent after the Last Battle, so chances are Tuon will survive the LB.

 

Plus I don't think Mat will become Emperor if Tuon dies now, the Seanchan barely know him, he's a foreigner to them, why would they accept him?

[Myrenna]

I think Tuon's pretty safe, but in my opinion, you're onto something about Mat and the a'dam. I can't imagine him standing for that, especially when he knows Tuon can channel.

[jemron]

I think Tuon's pretty safe, but in my opinion, you're onto something about Mat and the a'dam. I can't imagine him standing for that, especially when he knows Tuon can channel.

 

This.

 

Also @David Selig I don't think it matters if he's a foreigner or not. Since when did the Seanchan use logic in recognizing certain people as leaders? They won't even make eye-contact with High Lords/Ladies, so I don't think Mat would have a problem being recognized as their true Emperor. I'm not saying Fortuona will die, but I don't think the people will look down on Mat for being a "foreigner." He's bloody SEEN Artur Hawkwing and talked to him face-to-face. That makes him more of an expert than any of the "Blood."

[Myrenna]

I'm not entirely sure about the idea of Mat being a "foreigner." Seanchan is an enormous empire made up of many differing cultures. Consider Karede's manservant, Ajimbura, who is from one of the hill-tribes. Karede expresses some distaste at Ajimbura's barbaric ways, and uses this cultural difference to intimidate other Seanchan. This makes me think that people from Seanchan-controlled countries in Randland would be seen as just more Seanchan, only with strange ways and strange accents.

[Hopefire]

I agree that Mat will probably command all Light-side forces during the Last Battle; Rand will want Mat in charge, Tuon will want Mat in charge, Egwene isn't going to be able to provide an alternate commander that will be acceptable to the other parties Seanchan.

 

I don't think that Tuon will die. I do think that there will come a point where Mat is in mortal danger, perhaps about to die, perhaps dying and in need of healing, and what Tuon wants more than anything she's ever wanted before is to save Mat. She will, via the One Power.

[Mandro]

I forget in which book, in fact I think there are too references to a "Domination chair" or something like that. Perhaps the chrystal thrown is a domination chair, and rand takes a knee. Not in supplication but in pain, and then dominance.

 

(sorry for all the mispelling and typos, I'm running short sleep, and took me about a day to reestablish my account here. :)

[chinnma]

I forget in which book, in fact I think there are too references to a "Domination chair" or something like that. Perhaps the chrystal thrown is a domination chair, and rand takes a knee. Not in supplication but in pain, and then dominance.

 

(sorry for all the mispelling and typos, I'm running short sleep, and took me about a day to reestablish my account here. :)

 

That's a pretty interesting possibility. I have had several conversations with friends regarding the question "are all the prophesies (seanchan, K-cycle, forsaken) correct, or just K-cylce?" Deffinately one way to satisfy that one...

[fikkie77]

I forget in which book, in fact I think there are too references to a "Domination chair" or something like that. Perhaps the chrystal thrown is a domination chair, and rand takes a knee. Not in supplication but in pain, and then dominance.

 

(sorry for all the mispelling and typos, I'm running short sleep, and took me about a day to reestablish my account here. :)

Both RJ and BS have said that the turn of event won´t go to Seandar. So Rand will not appear to the physical Crystal Throne (which is a ter'angreal), but might appear before the human Crystal Throne (Fortuona) and might or might not kneel.

 

Which Cycle is right? We don't know. There's no guarantee that the K Cycle hasn't been tampered with as well.

[randsc]

We've been given every reason to believe that the Seanchan prophecies have been corrupted. So I don't think that any of them will necessarily be fulfilled.

 

I like the idea that it might be Hawkwing himself, returned at the call of the Horn, that explains this to the Seanchan.

[Mandro]

I forget in which book, in fact I think there are too references to a "Domination chair" or something like that. Perhaps the chrystal thrown is a domination chair, and rand takes a knee. Not in supplication but in pain, and then dominance.

 

(sorry for all the mispelling and typos, I'm running short sleep, and took me about a day to reestablish my account here. :)

Both RJ and BS have said that the turn of event won´t go to Seandar. So Rand will not appear to the physical Crystal Throne (which is a ter'angreal), but might appear before the human Crystal Throne (Fortuona) and might or might not kneel.

 

Which Cycle is right? We don't know. There's no guarantee that the K Cycle hasn't been tampered with as well.

 

Alaida showed traveling, so the chrystal thrown can be brought to Fortuona once the skill is taught.

[Mandro]

I forget in which book, in fact I think there are too references to a "Domination chair" or something like that. Perhaps the chrystal thrown is a domination chair, and rand takes a knee. Not in supplication but in pain, and then dominance.

 

(sorry for all the mispelling and typos, I'm running short sleep, and took me about a day to reestablish my account here. :)

 

That's a pretty interesting possibility. I have had several conversations with friends regarding the question "are all the prophesies (seanchan, K-cycle, forsaken) correct, or just K-cylce?" Deffinately one way to satisfy that one...

 

It's always the small lie that builds the big.

[fikkie77]

I forget in which book, in fact I think there are too references to a "Domination chair" or something like that. Perhaps the chrystal thrown is a domination chair, and rand takes a knee. Not in supplication but in pain, and then dominance.

 

(sorry for all the mispelling and typos, I'm running short sleep, and took me about a day to reestablish my account here. :)

Both RJ and BS have said that the turn of event won´t go to Seandar. So Rand will not appear to the physical Crystal Throne (which is a ter'angreal), but might appear before the human Crystal Throne (Fortuona) and might or might not kneel.

 

Which Cycle is right? We don't know. There's no guarantee that the K Cycle hasn't been tampered with as well.

Alaida showed traveling, so the chrystal thrown can be brought to Fortuona once the skill is taught.

I don't think that the CT is very mobile...

It's probably like moving the glass columns from Rhuidean to Tar Valon by gateway. Possible, but unlikely and just too much trouble.

[Mandro]

I forget in which book, in fact I think there are too references to a "Domination chair" or something like that. Perhaps the chrystal thrown is a domination chair, and rand takes a knee. Not in supplication but in pain, and then dominance.

 

(sorry for all the mispelling and typos, I'm running short sleep, and took me about a day to reestablish my account here. :)

Both RJ and BS have said that the turn of event won´t go to Seandar. So Rand will not appear to the physical Crystal Throne (which is a ter'angreal), but might appear before the human Crystal Throne (Fortuona) and might or might not kneel.

 

Which Cycle is right? We don't know. There's no guarantee that the K Cycle hasn't been tampered with as well.

Alaida showed traveling, so the chrystal thrown can be brought to Fortuona once the skill is taught.

I don't think that the CT is very mobile...

It's probably like moving the glass columns from Rhuidean to Tar Valon by gateway. Possible, but unlikely and just too much trouble.

 

The heirs of Hawkwing not only use the one power, but propogate it? You think his heirs didn't understand the power of. . .well . . . the power before they left the western nations before crossing the sea? There is a lot of indications that not only was the power present, but that the items of the power were valued. Ine fewer paragraphs than there are books, the Seanchan demonstrated a greater understanding of terangreal.

 

I don't buy that argument.

[Callern]

Just a small question, is the origin of the Seanchan prophecies known? After the appearance of the Dark Prophecies, can we know that Rands kneeling in front of the CT is actually a good thing? A prophecy which he needs to fulfill?

[Whizbang]

At one point one of the Seanchan (I don't remember who) mentioned that he/she read the prophecies on this side of the ocean and how they were all corrupted and didn't even mention the Dragon kneeling to the Crystal Throne. My first thought, and I still feel this way, is that it is the Seanchan prophecies that are corrupted in this respect. Why would anyone on this side of the ocean care about the Dragon kneeling to the Crystal Throne? For one, no one even knew what the Crystal Throne was, so why bother omitting that obscure passage from a plethora of obscure passages? And for two, the name "Dragon" is/was a curse to everyone on this side of the ocean. If he kneels to the Crystal Throne, it's not the same as if some beloved king kneels to another authority. They would have no sense of loyalty to the Dragon that would lead them to omit that passage from the prophecies.

 

It seems much more likely that at some point in the Seanchan history, some emperor or empress read the prophecies and saw that the Crystal Throne was not mentioned. "What? I am the most important person in the world. Of course the Dragon will be my subject and kneel to me. From this day forth, all prophecies will state that the Dragon will kneel to the Crystal Throne".

 

And now because of that, Tuon is striving to force that "prophecy" to come true, and so it is a possibility (hence Aviendha's vision in the towers). Aviendha will have to stop this false prophecy from coming true in order for the Aiel in the post LB world to continue on in honor and strength.

 

As for the Crystal Throne being a Ter'Angreal that will force him to kneel, that, I think, is unlikely. For one, When Alanna bonded Rand, she attempted to use the bond to bend him to her will. She could not because "it felt like trying to uproot a tree with your bare hands" (or something like that). Whether because of his Ta'avren-ness or his indomitable will is not certain. Regardless, a Ter’Angreal would have to contend with the same resistence. So, is the Crystal Throne powerful enough to bend the pattern to its will? I think not. Is it powerful enough to bend the enlightened Rand (with all the knowledge of the AoL) to its will? Again, I think not, although it is more likely than the other option.

 

I’ve been surprised before in this series, so I could be wrong. But, Tuon needs to fall on her face. She still sees Mat as an inferior, very much so. She needs to see him as an equal, or at least a highly valued and respected advisor and companion. Failing in making the Dragon kneel to the throne will force her to reevaluate the goals and the role that her empire plays.

[randsc]

 

I’ve been surprised before in this series, so I could be wrong. But, Tuon needs to fall on her face. She still sees Mat as an inferior, very much so. She needs to see him as an equal, or at least a highly valued and respected advisor and companion. Failing in making the Dragon kneel to the throne will force her to reevaluate the goals and the role that her empire plays.

 

Ideally, yes, but don't hold your breath. Just look at Egwene's definnition of the word, "partner" as it applies to Gawyn. I could see the series ending without any attitude adjustment on Tuon's part.

[Whizbang]

 

I’ve been surprised before in this series, so I could be wrong. But, Tuon needs to fall on her face. She still sees Mat as an inferior, very much so. She needs to see him as an equal, or at least a highly valued and respected advisor and companion. Failing in making the Dragon kneel to the throne will force her to reevaluate the goals and the role that her empire plays.

 

Ideally, yes, but don't hold your breath. Just look at Egwene's definnition of the word, "partner" as it applies to Gawyn. I could see the series ending without any attitude adjustment on Tuon's part.

 

Yes, I agree that it is likely she will not change her opinions much in this series. That, in bulk, is/was probably saved for the Mat/Tuon series. Still, Mat would not accept her constantly doubting/questioning/abusing/punishing his actions. He sees her as a wife. In his mind, that means a close companion and friend, as equals or near equals. If she constantly was challenging him, he would in turn challenge back. He would eventually turn sour on the whole idea of the marriage and rebel. He has the Dragon Tubes. It would cause a very long and bloody civil war.

 

So, regardless as to whether she changes her whole outlook on life in the next book, I still believe that she will fail to bend Rand's knee.

[OptimusPrime]

Tuon: The Seanchan are clearly the embodiment of the Light in the Last Battle, the Prophecies state that the Lights saviour shall kneel to the Crystal Throne. Who better than the Ever Victorious Army to lead Tarmon Gai'don?

Rand: If I must kneel, then so be it. But I have terms.

Tuon: As do I. I would have the armies of the nations you hold under Seanchan command.

Rand: Then I demand that Mat Cauthon holds command over the entire Seanchan forces.

Tuon: Oh my Creator. Prince of the Ravens is supposed to do that anyway. You got a deal pal. Kneel to my throne and be enthralled by my inspiration!

Rand: I can not include the Aiel in this. I do not command them.

Tuon: Fine

Rand: You're saying yes? If I kneel, you will not go back on this, EVER?

Tuon: This will be the most formal of agreements! Do not question the legitimacy of our customs! If you kneel to my throne and say that speech thing about me living forever, and let the Seanchan command your armies, I will ensure that Matrim Cauthon as Prince of the Ravens has full control over the whole frikkin lot. (hehehehe hes about to kneel and be caught by my chair, and then I will have control over the Dragon and lead the world through Tarmon Gaidon, Oh my Creator Im so awesome and everyone-EVERYONE-is about to see it RIGHT NOW)

Rand: *kneels while holding saidin*

Tuon: And there we have it. The Seanchan control the military forces of Illian, Tear, Cairhein, and the Legion of the Dragon. Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made *Seals The Essanik Treaty of the Dragon, hands Rand a copy*

Rand: Thanks. By the way, did you know that Mat is Ta'veren, and that he is also connected to me? lemme just give you an example. There came a time when Mat wanted to go home, but he couldnt because I needed him. I told him he could leave, but I didnt WANT him to, so he couldnt. He couldnt even say he wanted to leave, as in, he tried to say it, but the Pattern wouldnt let him because I DIDNT WANT HIM TO. Hmm. Whats that agreement say again? Oh yeah, Thanks for the army, we will use it well. KTHXBAI

 

Moridin: No no no NO!! THEY were supposed to control HIM, but now he has the whole lot!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Lews Therin: Hmm. My first failure.

Moridin: Shut up, idiot! This is MY first failure. YOU failed a million times! I wouldnt mind you in my head, if you werent such a madman

Lews Therin: Ooooh

[Callern]

Just out of curiosity, where does the Seanchan prophecy actually say that the Dragon has to kneel?

"He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don or all is lost." Is that not the right quote?

[OptimusPrime]

I cant remember which book its in but its not the Karaetheon or however its written, its the Seanchan one which most people think Ishamael has corrupted as a way to stop the Seanchan from being under the Dragons control

[Whizbang]

I cant remember which book its in but its not the Karaetheon or however its written, its the Seanchan one which most people think Ishamael has corrupted as a way to stop the Seanchan from being under the Dragons control

I totally forgot about Ishy corrupting the prophecies. Well, then, I don't know which to believe now. Ishy would have more than enough motivation to remove that line from the prophecies on this side of the ocean. He knew Rand would read the prophecies. If Rand saw he would kneel to the Crystal Throne, he would be willing to do it because it was in the prophecy. Whereas if he didn't see it, then he would fight the idea.

 

Hmmm...

 

This comes down, to me, to whether or not Rand's ta'avren-ness would draw an uncorrupted version of the prophecy to him. I am sure at least one would have survived the ages. So, was he meant to read them, or were they intended for the people to read? Is it really necessary for him to act according to the prophecy, or merely for people to accept him and prepare for him?

 

In which case, the line about him kneeling gets the Seanchan back across the ocean. True or not, that would be the purpose.

 

Burn me, as Mat would say. Now I don't know what to think.

[OptimusPrime]

Id say the prophecies werent supposed to be hidden or anything, Ishamael engineered that, and the Patterns way of getting round it is for Mat to fall in love with the soon-to-be Empress. The Pattern has Mat under its control, so once he fills the position of Prince of the Ravens Rand can go ahead and USE the false Prophecy to win the Seanchan without conflict.

 

I cant decide if Ishamael took the Crystal Throne comment out of one, or put it in the other. Id like to think he added the Seanhan comment, that the Crystal Throne prophecy is false in its entirety, but Rand will sieze it as an opportunity and Ishamaels plan will have blown up in his own face, because in the end HE created that opportunity for Rand, even though that wasnt what he intended.

[akira.taylor]

I cant remember which book its in but its not the Karaetheon or however its written, its the Seanchan one which most people think Ishamael has corrupted as a way to stop the Seanchan from being under the Dragons control

 

The Karaethon Cycle is on both sides of the ocean, having been given around the time of the Breaking. According to some Seanchan we saw, Hawkwing's son brought an 'uncorrupted' version with him, replacing the known, corrupted version. That Seanchan (one of the Deathwatch Guard, I think) notes that the version he's seen in Randland is corrupted, with no mention of the Dragon kneeling to the Crystal Throne.

 

There is also the Essanik Cycle.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Question: We know that the Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle are different. Is that because there were different contributors to each, or some other reason (like tampering by Ishamael)? Which is more correct?

Answer: The Essanik cycle had only in Seanchan and there were different contributors. Which is more correct? I’m not going to say which is more correct. There has been tampering…

Question: In both?

Answer: People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what the Essanik cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.