The Red Eagle Banner

[Simo]

Perrin Has been using the Red Eagle Banner but he is not the Red Eagle, Mat is Aemon reborn... The Band of the Red Hand were the Guard of Aemon. So shouldn't the banner go to Mat?

[Tollieman]

I never thought that Mat was Aemon reborn, it was just the old blood singing. Wasn't this confirmed by RJ somewhere? *goes scrounging through ancient threads...*

[Simo]

Before Mat went to Finn-land he had memories of being Aemon and Aemon was was known as the Gambler.

[Lacanos]

Before Mat went to Finn-land he had memories of being Aemon and Aemon was was known as the Gambler.

Mat is NOT Aemon reborn, it has been confirmed.

[moratcorlm]

Mat is NOT Aemon reborn, it has been confirmed.

If it has, and it hasn't anywhere I can see, would you mind citing that confirmation?

 

As for the Red Eagle banner, nobody's going to raise it, any more than anyone will declare the independence of Essenia. It represents a deadly-serious challenge to the sovereignty of the successor nations, and nobody who isn't steeped in Old Blood or past life memories actually has nationalistic feelings for a country two thousand years dead.

[Lacanos]

Mat is NOT Aemon reborn, it has been confirmed.

If it has, and it hasn't anywhere I can see, would you mind citing that confirmation?

 

As for the Red Eagle banner, nobody's going to raise it, any more than anyone will declare the independence of Essenia. It represents a deadly-serious challenge to the sovereignty of the successor nations, and nobody who isn't steeped in Old Blood or past life memories actually has nationalistic feelings for a country two thousand years dead.

I cannot find it, but I'm convinced I've read it before. The only quote I can find - "Some of Mat's memories were either from past lives or from his ancestors via Old Blood. Mat remembers being Aemon at the Battle of Aemon's Field just after he is Healed in the White Tower; this is of course before he visits the Eelfinn (where he gets the other men's memories), and also before he visits the Aelfinn in Tear."

That would imply he's a descendant of Aemon as opposed to being the direct rebirth of him.

 

Perrin has as much justification to raise the flag as Mat. They're from the same region as Manetheren, probably both descended, but it doesn't matter in the end.

[moratcorlm]

Neither Perrin nor Mat wish to claim the existence of the state of Manetheren, and as a consequence the illegitimacy of the governments of Andor, Ghealdan, and Altara in parts of their realms, which is what raising its banner signifies. It would not be some sort of 21st century American ethnic pride parade symbol, lightly adopted and easily discarded – and it can't be considered a crackpot irrelevance when a ta'veren with tens of thousands of soldiers behind him takes it up. Balwer's explanation in TPOD9, like Morgase's reaction, is clear enough. As, for that matter, are the numerous wars caused by territorial claims justified by ancient history in our world.

[Aliriel]

I thought Perrin handed the red eagel banner over to the Seanchan woman (Thylee?) to solidify their allying just before the attack on Melden (sp)

 

A.

[Terez]

Before Mat went to Finn-land he had memories of being Aemon and Aemon was was known as the Gambler.

Mat is NOT Aemon reborn, it has been confirmed.

 

Brandon said it could be either Old Blood or past life memories - we're not sure (though Old Blood seems more likely). RJ's comment was about the 'Finn memories.

[FarShainMael]

[spoke]

I thought Perrin handed the red eagel banner over to the Seanchan woman (Thylee?) to solidify their allying just before the attack on Melden (sp)

 

A.

 

Read the part again, He offered to hand of the red eagle banner, and give up claims, but Tylee rejected, so he went to his last resource which was the letter from Suroth. So no he didn't hand the red-eagle banner over.

[Terez]

I thought Perrin handed the red eagel banner over to the Seanchan woman (Thylee?) to solidify their allying just before the attack on Melden (sp)

 

A.

 

Read the part again, He offered to hand of the red eagle banner, and give up claims, but Tylee rejected, so he went to his last resource which was the letter from Suroth. So no he didn't hand the red-eagle banner over.

Perhaps you should read it again.

[randsc]

I thought Perrin handed the red eagel banner over to the Seanchan woman (Thylee?) to solidify their allying just before the attack on Melden (sp)

 

A.

 

Read the part again, He offered to hand of the red eagle banner, and give up claims, but Tylee rejected, so he went to his last resource which was the letter from Suroth. So no he didn't hand the red-eagle banner over.

 

Yes, he did. And there is no way that that was an accident; the banner will make another appearance in the story.

 

This was Perrin's worst moment in the series, agreeing to submit his people, and their national aspirations, to the Seanchan in exchange for help with his very personal errand with the Shaido.

[akira.taylor]

I thought Perrin handed the red eagel banner over to the Seanchan woman (Thylee?) to solidify their allying just before the attack on Melden (sp)

 

A.

 

Read the part again, He offered to hand of the red eagle banner, and give up claims, but Tylee rejected, so he went to his last resource which was the letter from Suroth. So no he didn't hand the red-eagle banner over.

 

Perrin offers the banner, Tylee thinks it's a good deal, finds out that the Shaido have buckets of marath'damane, and that to get enough damane to deal with the problem she will have to go to the Daughter of the Nine Moons, so she offers to return the banner (since she can't carry out her side of the bargain). Perrin then presents the letter from Suroth and his plan to use forkroot to deal with the Shaido Wise Ones, and Tylee keeps the banner. All of it happens (I think, based on E-WoT) in Knife of Dreams, chapter 12.

[moratcorlm]

This was Perrin's worst moment in the series, agreeing to submit his people, and their national aspirations

The national aspirations they only developed after Moiraine told them a bedtime story? The banner he was only using as a disguise in the first place? It's very unlikely that Perrin's going to play Mussolini in the future after amicably resolving his differences with the Lion Throne, and Mat's both an employee of Andor and the consort of the Empress of Seanchan, and neither needs nor wants any banner but the Red Hand.

[randsc]

This was Perrin's worst moment in the series, agreeing to submit his people, and their national aspirations

The national aspirations they only developed after Moiraine told them a bedtime story? The banner he was only using as a disguise in the first place? It's very unlikely that Perrin's going to play Mussolini in the future after amicably resolving his differences with the Lion Throne, and Mat's both an employee of Andor and the consort of the Empress of Seanchan, and neither needs nor wants any banner but the Red Hand.

 

Right, we don't see anything in the books about that region developing a distinct identity.

 

But don't worry your little self. It's clear now that there won't be a new Manetheren, so "Elayne and Andor!" should be safe.

[Finnssss22]

Mat is NOT Aemon reborn, it has been confirmed.

If it has, and it hasn't anywhere I can see, would you mind citing that confirmation?

 

As for the Red Eagle banner, nobody's going to raise it, any more than anyone will declare the independence of Essenia. It represents a deadly-serious challenge to the sovereignty of the successor nations, and nobody who isn't steeped in Old Blood or past life memories actually has nationalistic feelings for a country two thousand years dead.

I cannot find it, but I'm convinced I've read it before. The only quote I can find - "Some of Mat's memories were either from past lives or from his ancestors via Old Blood. Mat remembers being Aemon at the Battle of Aemon's Field just after he is Healed in the White Tower; this is of course before he visits the Eelfinn (where he gets the other men's memories), and also before he visits the Aelfinn in Tear."

That would imply he's a descendant of Aemon as opposed to being the direct rebirth of him.

 

Perrin has as much justification to raise the flag as Mat. They're from the same region as Manetheren, probably both descended, but it doesn't matter in the end.

 

The only thing really confirmed in the books or from the Q&A's is that Mat is a direct bloodline descendant of Aemon.

It has never been confirmed or denied whether Mat is actually Aemon's soul reborn and trying to get any more info usually results in a RAFO.

 

Neither will fly the Red Eagle, both will fly the Dragon banner imo.

[moratcorlm]

Right, we don't see anything in the books about that region developing a distinct identity.

Oh, the Two Rivers clearly do, and some of that is due to the 'Old Blood' from the interbred remnants of Manetheren to be sure. But it's been two thousand years since Manetheren fell, not twenty. The people of the Two Rivers had no knowledge of any historical connection to Manetheren, no traditions. And the Two Rivers is by no means all of Manetheren – most of it has been Ghealdan for a thousand years. Most of the rest – Baerlon, Whitebridge, and that region – has been Andoran. And before that it was Dhowlan and Farashalle – for another thousand! The scraps of the Two Rivers and northern Altara that have been under little to no government in living memory are the only parts where a genuine connection to the past might have survived, and it hasn't.

 

So why no Farashalle revivalism in the Two Rivers? Only, it would seem, because Moiraine told them a different story. (Hey, Hawkwing ruled the Two Rivers; they should eagerly submit to Seanchan rule, eh?)

[Terez]

One thing that is interesting is that 'Arad Doman' might possibly be a corruption of something that essentially means 'Domain of Arad' (the first king of Manetheren was named Arad).

 

Also, Brandon seems to have hinted in the direction of Leane's innocent line about Perrin putting on a crown and speaking High Chant being foreshadowing for AMOL.

 

IMO, Tuon is going to be Empress of all of Randland before the Last Battle is won, and it won't really matter much. I imagine that she'll do elsewhere as she has in her already-conquered lands. Everyone keeps their various thrones, but they work for her. I think that's one of the inevitable changes between the future Aviendha saw and the real future. In order to get the Seanchan to stop collaring channelers, they have to offer Tuon something she really, really wants. And if the resurrected Manetheren is not competition for the Empire, then there is no need for Tuon to suppress it.

[Finnssss22]

Right, we don't see anything in the books about that region developing a distinct identity.

Oh, the Two Rivers clearly do, and some of that is due to the 'Old Blood' from the interbred remnants of Manetheren to be sure. But it's been two thousand years since Manetheren fell, not twenty. The people of the Two Rivers had no knowledge of any historical connection to Manetheren, no traditions. And the Two Rivers is by no means all of Manetheren – most of it has been Ghealdan for a thousand years. Most of the rest – Baerlon, Whitebridge, and that region – has been Andoran. And before that it was Dhowlan and Farashalle – for another thousand! The scraps of the Two Rivers and northern Altara that have been under little to no government in living memory are the only parts where a genuine connection to the past might have survived, and it hasn't.

 

So why no Farashalle revivalism in the Two Rivers? Only, it would seem, because Moiraine told them a different story. (Hey, Hawkwing ruled the Two Rivers; they should eagerly submit to Seanchan rule, eh?)

 

The Two Rivers holds the most significance because that is where all of Manetheren was concentrated and finally backed up to in the Trolloc Wars.

It is where the Capital was and their last stand came at a place called Aemon's field or as it is known today, Emond's Field.

The rest of the country was scattered to the four winds with the Two Rivers the only place where the bloodlines remained strong and whole.

It has nothing to do with what story they were told.

 

 

Also, Brandon seems to have hinted in the direction of Leane's innocent line about Perrin putting on a crown and speaking High Chant being foreshadowing for AMOL.

 

Good call. I always kinda wondered about that myself. There was obviously more than one King of Manetheren during its' 1000 years. Mat being of the blood of Aemon while Perrin being of the blood of another King of Manetheren is not unreasonable.

[quick ben]

Right, we don't see anything in the books about that region developing a distinct identity.

Oh, the Two Rivers clearly do, and some of that is due to the 'Old Blood' from the interbred remnants of Manetheren to be sure. But it's been two thousand years since Manetheren fell, not twenty. The people of the Two Rivers had no knowledge of any historical connection to Manetheren, no traditions. And the Two Rivers is by no means all of Manetheren – most of it has been Ghealdan for a thousand years. Most of the rest – Baerlon, Whitebridge, and that region – has been Andoran. And before that it was Dhowlan and Farashalle – for another thousand! The scraps of the Two Rivers and northern Altara that have been under little to no government in living memory are the only parts where a genuine connection to the past might have survived, and it hasn't.

 

So why no Farashalle revivalism in the Two Rivers? Only, it would seem, because Moiraine told them a different story. (Hey, Hawkwing ruled the Two Rivers; they should eagerly submit to Seanchan rule, eh?)

 

The Two Rivers holds the most significance because that is where all of Manetheren was concentrated and finally backed up to in the Trolloc Wars.

It is where the Capital was and their last stand came at a place called Aemon's field or as it is known today, Emond's Field.

The rest of the country was scattered to the four winds with the Two Rivers the only place where the bloodlines remained strong and whole.

It has nothing to do with what story they were told.

 

 

Also, Brandon seems to have hinted in the direction of Leane's innocent line about Perrin putting on a crown and speaking High Chant being foreshadowing for AMOL.

 

Good call. I always kinda wondered about that myself. There was obviously more than one King of Manetheren during its' 1000 years. Mat being of the blood of Aemon while Perrin being of the blood of another King of Manetheren is not unreasonable.

 

I still find it interesting how Perrin raised the Red Eagle Banner, however after another more recent reread of EOTW i remembered that Min saw the Red Eagle around Mat, rather than a Red Hand.. which was seen around Elayne.. Maybe another reread of the earlier books is imminent..

[Finnssss22]

 

I still find it interesting how Perrin raised the Red Eagle Banner, however after another more recent reread of EOTW i remembered that Min saw the Red Eagle around Mat, rather than a Red Hand.. which was seen around Elayne.. Maybe another reread of the earlier books is imminent..

 

Another good point and after looking up Min's viewing of Perrin from tEotW:

"A wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him"

 

Sounds like BS's mention of Leane's foreshadowing is about Saldaea's crown, not Manetheren's.

[Aliriel]

Good call. I always kinda wondered about that myself. There was obviously more than one King of Manetheren during its' 1000 years. Mat being of the blood of Aemon while Perrin being of the blood of another King of Manetheren is not unreasonable.

 

This is assuming that the passing of the title of "King" was done in a similar way of it is in the present day where Successions are rife and the position changed hands quite frequently, what if it were a heridery(sp) thing? father to son in and unbroken line?

 

A.

[bysomy]

I always thought Tam was desended from Aemon. al'(means son of) Thor(Thorin was an ancestor of Aemon, the name could have changed in the same way Aemon changed to Emond)

[Terez]

In that case, the same goes for all the al'Caars and Ayellins.