Trollocs getting to Caemlyn via Ways

[herid]

Verin's letter warns of a huge number of shadowspawn using the Ways to get to Caemlyn. How are they doing it without getting caught by Machin Shin? Verin told Perrin in SR that Isam/Luc could only bring Trollocs to Two Rivers in small groups since a large group of them would attract Machin Shin in minutes. Is this restriction gone for some reason? There was a huge army of Trollocs that attacked Rand and co in KoD but I believe that one was brought there by Fain who has an understanding with Machin Shin. Is he the one in charge of the Caemlyn invasion? Doesn't seem likely to me. Any other ideas?

[Brown Ajah]

Throughout the entire series, followers of the DO have been sending trollocs through the ways, so to me its no surprise. Sure Machin Shin kills many of them, but they're just collateral damage. Several groups of trollocs still make it through. I believe we've encountered the bodies of dead trollocs in the ways before, showing evidence of trollocs traveling through. I see the attack on Caemlyn as believable and i'm sure it's an issue of numbers, you send a crapload of trollocs through and maybe 60% or something make it to their destination, idk. No surprise though.

[Muad Cheade]

Ever since Fain interacted with Machin Shin, it hasn't been acting properly. It may even be gone.

 

One such example is in KoD when 100,000 Trollocs made it through the Ways to attack Rand when he was in Tear, compared to tSR when Perrin's small group was found and even though the Shadow was moving Trollocs in small groups, they were still consumed by Machin Shin.

[herid]

Ever since Fain interacted with Machin Shin, it hasn't been acting properly. It may even be gone.

 

One such example is in KoD when 100,000 Trollocs made it through the Ways to attack Rand when he was in Tear, compared to tSR when Perrin's small group was found and even though the Shadow was moving Trollocs in small groups, they were still consumed by Machin Shin.

As I mentioned I believe that Fain was the one who brought that particular group of Trollocs. He can command Trollocs and Myrddraal now. And it is pretty clear from the meeting of the Forsaken at the beginning of KoD that it wasn't one of the Forsaken who ordered that attack. But it looks highly unlikely that Fain is behind the attack on Caemlyn as this attack seems to be directed by one of the Forsaken based on what Chesmal told Elayne.

 

And there is certainly no indication that Machin Shin is gone. I suppose it's possible that Fain changed it in some way but what would indicate that? all we've seen is that Fain can command Machin Shin (and even set it tasks), not that Machin Shin is changed somehow.

[Mr Ares]

The attack on Lord Algarin's manor in KoD was almost certainly not Fain's doing - it was ordered by someone impersonating Sammael, for one thing (we have no reason to believe Fain could do that, or would want to), and for another the method is one that is decidedly different to Fain's MO - he wants to kill Rand. He doesn't want Rand dead, he wants to kill him himself. An army of Trollocs might kill Rand - that is not what Fain wants, as it denies him his vengeance. So, if it was sent by the Shadow, it either means that the Shadow has some way of guarding against MS, or it means that MS didn't interfere for some other reason. The attack on Caemlyn is the same - either MS must be guarded against, or not present. If they didn't have a way to protect against it and it showed up, it would annihilate them. The only chance of getting any number through is sending them in small groups - but that means you have to attack Caemlyn with a small army, not large one.

[Terez]

The attack on Lord Algarin's manor in KoD was almost certainly not Fain's doing - it was ordered by someone impersonating Sammael, for one thing (we have no reason to believe Fain could do that, or would want to)

1. Fain can create illusion. He did it in Far Madding.

2. Fain has a connection to Mashadar, which ate Sammael's soul.

3. The Fade might have been lying.

 

and for another the method is one that is decidedly different to Fain's MO - he wants to kill Rand. He doesn't want Rand dead, he wants to kill him himself.

Kinda like how he sent those Whitecloaks to kill Rand in Caemlyn in LOC? Yes, we know. It was a test. But the Whitecloaks were obviously ordered to actually try to kill him.

[Incom]

Machin Shin could potentially be gone (/decorrupted/fixed/etc. depending on how it originated). Why is this? It's reasonable to believe that MS is the result of the evil of Shadar Logoth leaking through the Waygate there. And with the original evil destroyed (with the exception of Rand's wound, the dagger, and Fain), it's possible that MS was "tethered" to the place, and it "starved" when SL was destroyed.

 

Just a theory.

[moratcorlm]

Liandrin seems to believe that she can control Machin Shin. And since she's speaking to four women she believes will shortly be disposed of forever, she has no particular reason to lie.

After a time, Egwene said, “Liandrin Sedai, what if we encounter the Black Wind?” Min mouthed the word questioningly, but Elayne gave a squeak. “Moiraine Sedai said it could not be killed, or even hurt very much, and I can feel the taint on this place waiting to twist anything we do with the Power.”

 

“You will not so much as think of the Source unless I tell you to,” Liandrin said sharply. “Why, if one such as you tried to channel here, in the Ways, you might well go as mad as a man. You have not the training to deal with the taint of those men who made this. If the Black Wind appears, I will deal with it.” She pursed her lips, studying a lump of white cheese. “Moiraine does not know so much as she thinks.” She popped the cheese into her mouth with a smile.

If Machin Shin derived from the taint on saidin, and loyalty to Shai'tan can filter the taint from saidin, it stands to reason that Darkfriend channelers can in some way repel the Black Wind.

 

Trollocs have been killed in the series by Machin Shin, but none of the afflicted armies was accompanied by a Dreadlord; the Shadow has so far not moved them openly. But if the attack on Algarin's manor was sent by Moridin, or Demandred, or particularly Taim, this could help explain why they arrived in force even though Verin thinks "a thousand men, or a thousand Trollocs, would very likely draw Machin Shin within minutes, a monstrous wasp to a bowl of honey" (TSR44).

[Lacanos]

Machin Shin could potentially be gone (/decorrupted/fixed/etc. depending on how it originated). Why is this? It's reasonable to believe that MS is the result of the evil of Shadar Logoth leaking through the Waygate there. And with the original evil destroyed (with the exception of Rand's wound, the dagger, and Fain), it's possible that MS was "tethered" to the place, and it "starved" when SL was destroyed.

 

Just a theory.

It is considerably more likely that Machin Shin is a result of the taint on saidin - as much has been said several times.

[herid]

The attack on Lord Algarin's manor in KoD was almost certainly not Fain's doing - it was ordered by someone impersonating Sammael.

We don't know that. Moridin thinks that because he believes that only a Forsaken could do it and all the other Forsaken are accounted for. There are apparently no eyewitnesses and all Moridin knows is that a bunch of trollocs and fades are gone.

and for another the method is one that is decidedly different to Fain's MO - he wants to kill Rand. He doesn't want Rand dead, he wants to kill him himself.

Ok, that is a strong argument. However, as Terez mentioned he's done this before when he sent the whitecloaks in Caemlyn in LOC. It might also be that he wants the trollocs to soften up the defenses around Rand and would then finish him off himself. Still, you may be right on this one and I must admit I'm no longer sure on this.

 

Machin Shin could potentially be gone (/decorrupted/fixed/etc. depending on how it originated). Why is this? It's reasonable to believe that MS is the result of the evil of Shadar Logoth leaking through the Waygate there. And with the original evil destroyed (with the exception of Rand's wound, the dagger, and Fain), it's possible that MS was "tethered" to the place, and it "starved" when SL was destroyed.

 

Sorry, but that is a weak argument that Machin Shin is gone. The destruction of Shadar Logoth did not affect Fain or Rand's wound. Why would it affect Machin Shin then? I've seen the theory that Machin Shin was a result of interaction of the taint on saidin and Mashadar seeping into the Ways. (taint is definitely involved). that seems possible but in that case there is even more of an argument that none but Fain could control Machin Shin.

Liandrin seems to believe that she can control Machin Shin. And since she's speaking to four women she believes will shortly be disposed of forever, she has no particular reason to lie.

After a time, Egwene said, “Liandrin Sedai, what if we encounter the Black Wind?” Min mouthed the word questioningly, but Elayne gave a squeak. “Moiraine Sedai said it could not be killed, or even hurt very much, and I can feel the taint on this place waiting to twist anything we do with the Power.”

 

“You will not so much as think of the Source unless I tell you to,” Liandrin said sharply. “Why, if one such as you tried to channel here, in the Ways, you might well go as mad as a man. You have not the training to deal with the taint of those men who made this. If the Black Wind appears, I will deal with it.” She pursed her lips, studying a lump of white cheese. “Moiraine does not know so much as she thinks.” She popped the cheese into her mouth with a smile.

If Machin Shin derived from the taint on saidin, and loyalty to Shai'tan can filter the taint from saidin, it stands to reason that Darkfriend channelers can in some way repel the Black Wind.

 

Trollocs have been killed in the series by Machin Shin, but none of the afflicted armies was accompanied by a Dreadlord; the Shadow has so far not moved them openly. But if the attack on Algarin's manor was sent by Moridin, or Demandred, or particularly Taim, this could help explain why they arrived in force even though Verin thinks "a thousand men, or a thousand Trollocs, would very likely draw Machin Shin within minutes, a monstrous wasp to a bowl of honey" (TSR44).

Ah, that is a very interesting quote on Liandrin. You may be right on this one and maybe dreadlords (men or women?) can control Machin Shin after all. It does appear strange though that Verin seems to be unaware of this. She is a balck and she is a brown. If anybody would know that this might be possible, she certainly should. It's still somewhat strange that Luc didn't get any help on this when he was bringing Trollocs via ways to the Two Rivers in SR.

[mbuehner]

The timing doesn't match up very well either- Aradhol became Shadar Logoth something like 1500 years before the Ways darkened at the end of the War of a Hundred Years. You could argue that that's how long it took to seep in, but it doesn't scream convergence to me.

 

As far as Liandrin, perhaps she thought (or was told) she could influence MS, or she may have said it just to shut the girls up and keep them moving. Its possible this is true but it seems unlikely to me that the BA would be given that power as opposed to the Forsaken. Its a big mystery for sure.

[garryowen]

As far as Liandrin, perhaps she thought (or was told) she could influence MS, or she may have said it just to shut the girls up and keep them moving. Its possible this is true but it seems unlikely to me that the BA would be given that power as opposed to the Forsaken. Its a big mystery for sure.

 

Who said that the BA had the capability and the Forsaken didn't? I was also definitely under the impression that Machin Shin, along with the darkness in the ways was a product of the taint on Saidin. I heard somewhere that the ways were made exclusively with Saidin.

 

I think it makes perfect sense that dreadlords can safely escort trollocs through the ways past Machin Shin. Dreadlord activity was fairly minimal early on in the series. The most we saw happening were some little scraps that they got into with Egwene/Elayne/Nynaeve, but they weren't really all that involved in larger scale battles. Given the battle with Perrin+Galad vs the Trollocs+Dreadlords I think now the shadow is really pulling out the big guns. I will bet my boots that there are going to be dreadlords (or possibly a Forsaken/Chosen) in the assault on Caemlyn.

[DemandredFO]

Fain hates Myrdraal and his Mashadar powers kill them. Fain's Whitecloaks, there is a difference between a few men and 100,000 shadowspawn.

[herid]

Fain hates Myrdraal and his Mashadar powers kill them. Fain's Whitecloaks, there is a difference between a few men and 100,000 shadowspawn.

Fain doesn't need to love myrddraal in order to use them. He has been able to order them around as early as tGH. And his powers have increased greatly since then so I don't see anything strange in him being able to command 100k shadowspawn now.

[Tom Sawyer]

Even if Fain can't command regular Myrddraal directly, he does have that one pet Fade that such a big deal was made about him getting in book four which has never been seen again since. I'm not sure how the Chosen Mark works, but if this Fade popped in to HQ and told the other ones that Sammael ordered him to take 100,000 Trollocs into the Ways, would the assumption by the others be that this Fade can't lie about something like that and therefore assume that Sammael actually gave that order? Then they either tell Ishy that this is what happened, or Fain's Fade sticks around and lies to him while he assumes that he can't be lied to by a Fade, so figures that there is actually someone impersonating Sammael.

 

He can find Rand no matter where he's hiding and he had the pre-existing history of moving Trollocs et al through the Ways, so he's always seemed like the most likely candidate for the attack as well. The one drawback is, of course, that he wants to kill Rand himself but that didn't stop him from having the Whitecloaks attack him, so having someone kill Rand on his orders may be fine for him.

[Terez]

Fain hates Myrdraal and his Mashadar powers kill them. Fain's Whitecloaks, there is a difference between a few men and 100,000 shadowspawn.

Yes, it was a stiffer test the second time around. Not really any more likely to succeed than the first, and I think Fain knew it, though I think that a part of him still wanted it, just like a part of him wanted it with the Whitecloaks. The attack has the added benefit of weakening Rand's entourage. Fain has a desire for personal revenge, but he also has a desire to be free of the compulsion to hunt. We saw his internal conflict on the issue in Far Madding - his last, desperate attempt to kill Rand with his own hands before giving up and heading to Shayol Ghul to wait for him there.

 

 

Even if Fain can't command regular Myrddraal directly, he does have that one pet Fade that such a big deal was made about him getting in book four which has never been seen again since.

It was still hanging around in LOC, though we haven't seen it since then. Fain originally used it to lead the attack on Taren Ferry, and eventually the Fade was completely broken to Fain's will.

 

I'm not sure how the Chosen Mark works

Neither are the Chosen. They assume that only they can order Shadowspawn because no one else has ever shown the ability to do so. The Dreadlords had to bargain with the Fades during the Trolloc Wars, and you might say what Fain does is similar to bargaining. More like coercion, and if he can freak out enough of them by making an example or two, then he could probably command them outright.

[Mr Ares]

The attack on Lord Algarin's manor in KoD was almost certainly not Fain's doing - it was ordered by someone impersonating Sammael, for one thing (we have no reason to believe Fain could do that, or would want to)

1. Fain can create illusion. He did it in Far Madding.

2. Fain has a connection to Mashadar, which ate Sammael's soul.

3. The Fade might have been lying.

Really reaching on that last point. What connection to Mashadar? And, while Fain can create illusions, we have not seen that he has the ability to create an illusion of Sammael (Chosen mark and all) so convincing it could order 100,000 Trollocs into the Ways - in FM we see a couple of ghosts wandering about - nor do we have any reason to believe he would want to order them around as Sammael.

 

The attack on Lord Algarin's manor in KoD was almost certainly not Fain's doing - it was ordered by someone impersonating Sammael.

We don't know that. Moridin thinks that because he believes that only a Forsaken could do it and all the other Forsaken are accounted for. There are apparently no eyewitnesses and all Moridin knows is that a bunch of trollocs and fades are gone.

We do know that it was Sammael or someone disguised as him. KoD is explicit on that point.

[herid]

 

 

The attack on Lord Algarin's manor in KoD was almost certainly not Fain's doing - it was ordered by someone impersonating Sammael.

We don't know that. Moridin thinks that because he believes that only a Forsaken could do it and all the other Forsaken are accounted for. There are apparently no eyewitnesses and all Moridin knows is that a bunch of trollocs and fades are gone.

We do know that it was Sammael or someone disguised as him. KoD is explicit on that point.

sorry, you are right on this one. But even so it could have been Fain. We don't know if he can create an illusion of a mark of a Forsaken but I don't think he needs one to command Myrddraal. As I mentioned he was able to impose his will on Myrddraal and trollocs as early as in TGH. When they flee with the Horn and the dagger there is a power struggle between Fain and the Myrddraal with their party changing direction depending on who was in charge (there is a Fain POV describing it) with Fain finally coming out victorious. He killed that Fade in the end but he didn't really have to. And Fain's power has grown greatly since then so I don't see anything strange in him being able to do it now, mark or no mark.

[Muad Cheade]

Fain previously used torture to break Myrdraal. I find it highly unlikely that he goes into the Blight (possibly very deep) into the Blight and tortures hundreds of Myrdraal and sends them south.

 

And if he tortured Myrdraal, don't you think the one who reported to Moridin would notice if anything was amiss?

[tiffany1984]

Verin's letter that she left with Mat says about shadowspawn, but it doesnt specify that its Trollocs.

these new Aiel are something different i think, maybe machin shin cannot feel them.

they have a glassy eyed stare so it could be possible they are souless.

if machin shin was made by the taint it could be that it feels a kinship to myrddraal and trollocs but cant help its self

because they have emotions, just like humans and Ogier.

[herid]

Verin's letter that she left with Mat says about shadowspawn, but it doesnt specify that its Trollocs.

these new Aiel are something different i think, maybe machin shin cannot feel them.

they have a glassy eyed stare so it could be possible they are souless.

if machin shin was made by the taint it could be that it feels a kinship to myrddraal and trollocs but cant help its self

because they have emotions, just like humans and Ogier.

I'm quite certain showdowspawn here means Trollocs not the shadow twisted Aiel. Also, one of the shadow twisted Aiel smiles. so they do have emotions. that washes away your argument that Machin Shin might not be able to feel them. Lastly, there is also no indication that the DO has a huge pool of Aiel to turn them into the twisted Aiel.

[Nooska]

Verin's letter that she left with Mat says about shadowspawn, but it doesnt specify that its Trollocs.

these new Aiel are something different i think, maybe machin shin cannot feel them.

they have a glassy eyed stare so it could be possible they are souless.

if machin shin was made by the taint it could be that it feels a kinship to myrddraal and trollocs but cant help its self

because they have emotions, just like humans and Ogier.

I'm quite certain showdowspawn here means Trollocs not the shadow twisted Aiel. Also, one of the shadow twisted Aiel smiles. so they do have emotions. that washes away your argument that Machin Shin might not be able to feel them. Lastly, there is also no indication that the DO has a huge pool of Aiel to turn them into the twisted Aiel.

Nor, indeed, that there are any Aiel at all.

[herid]

Verin's letter that she left with Mat says about shadowspawn, but it doesnt specify that its Trollocs.

these new Aiel are something different i think, maybe machin shin cannot feel them.

they have a glassy eyed stare so it could be possible they are souless.

if machin shin was made by the taint it could be that it feels a kinship to myrddraal and trollocs but cant help its self

because they have emotions, just like humans and Ogier.

I'm quite certain showdowspawn here means Trollocs not the shadow twisted Aiel. Also, one of the shadow twisted Aiel smiles. so they do have emotions. that washes away your argument that Machin Shin might not be able to feel them. Lastly, there is also no indication that the DO has a huge pool of Aiel to turn them into the twisted Aiel.

Nor, indeed, that there are any Aiel at all.

not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that the red-veiled Aiel are not really Aiel? I think that they are, just shadow twisted Aiel. But regardless, it's quite clear that the vast bulk of the DO armies is comprised of Trollocs. We've seen it many times in the past. Wenever huge armies of shadowspawn appear they are mostly Trollocs. Min's viewing of the last battle (two dead men on the ground with lots of trollocs around them) indicates that it will be so in the future too.

[chinnma]

not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that the red-veiled Aiel are not really Aiel? I think that they are, just shadow twisted Aiel. But regardless, it's quite clear that the vast bulk of the DO armies is comprised of Trollocs. We've seen it many times in the past. Wenever huge armies of shadowspawn appear they are mostly Trollocs. Min's viewing of the last battle (two dead men on the ground with lots of trollocs around them) indicates that it will be so in the future too.

 

A friend of mine thinks that the creepy red veiled dudes are part of Fain's army. Im not entirely convinced, but it's a deffinate possibility. I am pretty sure, however, that they are not Aiel. The fact that the dude in the POV we have confuses them with Aiel is not evidence (Loial gets confused with a Trolloc, several times after all).

[herid]

not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that the red-veiled Aiel are not really Aiel? I think that they are, just shadow twisted Aiel. But regardless, it's quite clear that the vast bulk of the DO armies is comprised of Trollocs. We've seen it many times in the past. Wenever huge armies of shadowspawn appear they are mostly Trollocs. Min's viewing of the last battle (two dead men on the ground with lots of trollocs around them) indicates that it will be so in the future too.

 

A friend of mine thinks that the creepy red veiled dudes are part of Fain's army. Im not entirely convinced, but it's a deffinate possibility. I am pretty sure, however, that they are not Aiel. The fact that the dude in the POV we have confuses them with Aiel is not evidence (Loial gets confused with a Trolloc, several times after all).

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. They are described as wearing veils and having short spears on their backs. Who do we know that does that? There is also no evidence that they have anything to do with Fain. Fain is fairly deep into the blight at this point (as described in the prologue) going north toward Shayol ghul. Barriga is right at the border of the blight and Kandor where the Trolloc invasion is happening. Lastly, there is no reason for any of Fain's minions to go south without him. Why should they? He is bringing all of them along with him.