The conversation between Perrin/Faile/Elayne/Morgase/Alliandre - Re: The 2Riv ''Rebellion'' in Andor

[Suttree]

Seems like this would be a good question for BS since there seems to be so much confusion about it.

 

"Is Perrin now an Andoran High Lord or isn't he?"

 

The way I interpreted the situation is Perrin is a lord in all but name. Rand as The Dragon Reborn was never really expected to fulfill his Lordly duties in this instance. They were looking for a way to explain the TR's special status and why it was exempt from taxes. In essence Perrin as Steward will be the Lord for the near future and did swear fealty to Elayne.

 

ToM A Teaching Chamber

 

 

"If Faile were to ascend, one of her and Perrin's children could continue as Lord of the Two Rivers

 

"One of your children , I mean, to marry into the Andoran royal line. If the Two Rivers is to be ruled by a lord with as much power as this treaty would give him(Perrin) then I would love to have blood connections to the throne."

 

"But the other Houses won't like this 'High Lord' business. There'd need to be a way around it..."

 

"I'll need some way to convince the other lords and ladies that I'm right to give the Two Rivers so much autonomy."

 

"The taxes," Elayne said as if she hadn't heard. "You put them into a trust to be administered by Perrin and and his line, with the understanding that IF the Dragon returns, he can call upon them. Yes. That gives us a legal excuse for your exemption. Of course, Perrin will have authority to dip into those funds to impove the Two Rivers. Roads, food stores, defenses."

 

All of these quotes indicate this is the case...

[Mr Ares]

I've mentioned this a few times but I guess I should confirm, did they actually make a binding (ie oathbound) agreement? I can't see how they could have with Rand not being there, you can't swear someone to a throne when they don't even know about it.

Only my book's a good few miles away at this point.

 

I think it was implied that all the official ''I Dotting'' was done offscreen. I'm not sure why Rand would be needed to make anything official. He's not a King or a member of any ruling house in Andor, Tear or Cairhein, He IS the King of Illian and wears the Laurel Crown but thats irrelevant to this situation. Obviously hes the Dragon Reborn, but again, that doesn't affect what the kings and queens of the world (except, again, Illian, where he wears the Crown of Swords) do.

 

It does if what those Queens are doing involves swearing him to their Throne!

He should have been involved in the discussion because the whole premise of it was that he would be Lord of the Two Rivers but still subservient to the Throne, and that Perrin was to be sworn to him. If Rand wasn't involved and doesn't even know about the agreement he can't be sworn to the Throne, and so the situations people have been talking about can't really take place. You could probably swear Perrin to the throne and name him Steward until the whole business is formalised, but we saw no indication that that has happened - he said outright he was going to follow Rand at the FoM, even if Elayne disagreed.

Imagine if Elayne turned up to the Fields of Merillor and said "actually, you can't break the seals because you're sworn to me because I said so to your friend". She'd be laughed off the throne!

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the arrangement is entirely dependent on Rand agreeing with it, and they haven't even mentioned it to him yet.

A fair point, but a terrible example - being sworn to Elayne would bring with it certain duties and responsibilities as a lord, but he has duties and responsibilities outside of the TR that have nothing to do with Andor (and thus are not subject to the Andoran crown) - for example, him being King of Illian. Elayne could order him around as a vassal on Andoran matters, but he would be an equal on matters of international relations between their respective countries. But the essential point you made is, as a said, a fair one. Elayne cannot confer new duties and responsibilities on Rand without his consent. However, I would contend that the duties conferred upon him are in name only - unless and until he decides to take up the duties, Perrin functions as Lord in all but name. If Rand never took up his duties, he would thus never have to swear, and him being a lord subject to the Andoran crown would be, in effect, a lordship on paper only with all parties understanding that the relationship between Queen and High Lord's Steward should function as if Rand didn't exist. If and when he decides to take up his duties there, then his swearing will become a necessity, not before.

 

This is not how liegeship or vassal relationships have worked. Ever. Try studying European history from, oh well lets say 1100-1850.

Again? Excessive, surely. The TR is part of Andor. The High lord of the TR (or his Steward, in practice) thus comes when the Queen of Andor calls, not when the King of Illian calls. Of course, in purely practical terms, it's pretty difficult to force Rand to do anything. If he decided to call the TR to support Illian, he would, and if he didn't call them to support Andor, then Elayne can't really do much beyond be annoyed. Difference between law and fact. Lawfully, he should come when she calls, in fact he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to. And child, do not presume to lecture me on history.

[David Selig]

 

Though nobody knows this but Rand is the son of Tigrane which does make him royal blood does'nt it? I suppose he would be part of the royal family now like Galad right?

 

If this becomes common knowledge how would it effect this? would rand be entitled to some estates in andor being son of the former queen?

Not exactly like Galad since Morgase adopted Galad and married his father, neither of which applies to Rand. If he can prove his parentage, Rand is still probably entitled to some estates from House Mantear (Tigraine's house) - he's an illegitimate child but that doesn't seem to matter in Andor when your mother is a noble, since everyone assumes Elayne's kids will be heirs and she's not yet married. Though I doubt Rand will ever claim those, it's not like he needs more estates.

 

"Is Perrin now an Andoran High Lord or isn't he?"

In name, no - that was the point of the "let's give Two Rivers to the Dragon" manoeuvre. In practice, yes.

[The Fisher King]

 

Though nobody knows this but Rand is the son of Tigrane which does make him royal blood does'nt it? I suppose he would be part of the royal family now like Galad right?

 

If this becomes common knowledge how would it effect this? would rand be entitled to some estates in andor being son of the former queen?

Not exactly like Galad since Morgase adopted Galad and married his father, neither of which applies to Rand. If he can prove his parentage, Rand is still probably entitled to some estates from House Mantear (Tigraine's house) - he's an illegitimate child but that doesn't seem to matter in Andor when your mother is a noble, since everyone assumes Elayne's kids will be heirs and she's not yet married. Though I doubt Rand will ever claim those, it's not like he needs more estates.

 

"Is Perrin now an Andoran High Lord or isn't he?"

In name, no - that was the point of the "let's give Two Rivers to the Dragon" manoeuvre. In practice, yes.

 

 

The point - and what happened - was actually the exact opposite, lol. They gave PERRIN lordship of the 2RIV (as ''Steward''), in order to avoid the drama/awkwardness of having RAND (the Dragon Reborn and King of Illian) be an Andoran Lord.

 

 

- Fish

[David Selig]

Steward is not High Lord. It's one thing to elevate someone to be the Steward of the High Lord Dragon, another to make him a High Lord in his own right. And the deal was to make the Dragon Reborn an Andoran Lord.

 

ToM, Ch. 47

 

If the lands are granted to the Dragon Reborn, giving him a title in Andor and making the Two Rivers his seat, then it will make sense for your home to be treated differently.

[Lacanos]

 

Though nobody knows this but Rand is the son of Tigrane which does make him royal blood does'nt it? I suppose he would be part of the royal family now like Galad right?

 

If this becomes common knowledge how would it effect this? would rand be entitled to some estates in andor being son of the former queen?

Not exactly like Galad since Morgase adopted Galad and married his father, neither of which applies to Rand. If he can prove his parentage, Rand is still probably entitled to some estates from House Mantear (Tigraine's house) - he's an illegitimate child but that doesn't seem to matter in Andor when your mother is a noble, since everyone assumes Elayne's kids will be heirs and she's not yet married. Though I doubt Rand will ever claim those, it's not like he needs more estates.

 

"Is Perrin now an Andoran High Lord or isn't he?"

In name, no - that was the point of the "let's give Two Rivers to the Dragon" manoeuvre. In practice, yes.

 

 

The point - and what happened - was actually the exact opposite, lol. They gave PERRIN lordship of the 2RIV (as ''Steward''), in order to avoid the drama/awkwardness of having RAND (the Dragon Reborn and King of Illian) be an Andoran Lord.

 

 

- Fish

The number of mistakes in your posts in this thread are actually starting to irritate me I'm afraid, forgive me.

The point of making Perrin Steward was to stop from allowing a rebel to declare himself a Lord and then the crown to create a precedent by allowing it.

Rand is an Andoran Lord (he is, in name, Lord of the Two Rivers, while Perrin is "Steward for the Lord Dragon in the Two Rivers" (or maybe something snappier))

[The Fisher King]

 

Though nobody knows this but Rand is the son of Tigrane which does make him royal blood does'nt it? I suppose he would be part of the royal family now like Galad right?

 

If this becomes common knowledge how would it effect this? would rand be entitled to some estates in andor being son of the former queen?

Not exactly like Galad since Morgase adopted Galad and married his father, neither of which applies to Rand. If he can prove his parentage, Rand is still probably entitled to some estates from House Mantear (Tigraine's house) - he's an illegitimate child but that doesn't seem to matter in Andor when your mother is a noble, since everyone assumes Elayne's kids will be heirs and she's not yet married. Though I doubt Rand will ever claim those, it's not like he needs more estates.

 

"Is Perrin now an Andoran High Lord or isn't he?"

In name, no - that was the point of the "let's give Two Rivers to the Dragon" manoeuvre. In practice, yes.

 

 

The point - and what happened - was actually the exact opposite, lol. They gave PERRIN lordship of the 2RIV (as ''Steward''), in order to avoid the drama/awkwardness of having RAND (the Dragon Reborn and King of Illian) be an Andoran Lord.

 

 

- Fish

The number of mistakes in your posts in this thread are actually starting to irritate me I'm afraid, forgive me.

The point of making Perrin Steward was to stop from allowing a rebel to declare himself a Lord and then the crown to create a precedent by allowing it.

Rand is an Andoran Lord (he is, in name, Lord of the Two Rivers, while Perrin is "Steward for the Lord Dragon in the Two Rivers" (or maybe something snappier))

 

Look, lol, I think we'll just have to agree tp agree that you're struggling with the semantics here. PERRIN is named Lord of the Two Rivers as RAND'S *Steward*- NOT Elayn'es. This was done to intentionally PREVENT Rand (as King of Illian/TDR) from having claim to any kind of ''Andoran Lordship'' in Elayne's kingdom. Lets say it together now: PERRIN is Lord of the 2R and RAND is NOT a Lord in Andor in ANY way. ... Rocket Science is hard - this ain't, lol ;-)

 

 

- Fish

[Lacanos]

 

Though nobody knows this but Rand is the son of Tigrane which does make him royal blood does'nt it? I suppose he would be part of the royal family now like Galad right?

 

If this becomes common knowledge how would it effect this? would rand be entitled to some estates in andor being son of the former queen?

Not exactly like Galad since Morgase adopted Galad and married his father, neither of which applies to Rand. If he can prove his parentage, Rand is still probably entitled to some estates from House Mantear (Tigraine's house) - he's an illegitimate child but that doesn't seem to matter in Andor when your mother is a noble, since everyone assumes Elayne's kids will be heirs and she's not yet married. Though I doubt Rand will ever claim those, it's not like he needs more estates.

 

"Is Perrin now an Andoran High Lord or isn't he?"

In name, no - that was the point of the "let's give Two Rivers to the Dragon" manoeuvre. In practice, yes.

 

 

The point - and what happened - was actually the exact opposite, lol. They gave PERRIN lordship of the 2RIV (as ''Steward''), in order to avoid the drama/awkwardness of having RAND (the Dragon Reborn and King of Illian) be an Andoran Lord.

 

 

- Fish

The number of mistakes in your posts in this thread are actually starting to irritate me I'm afraid, forgive me.

The point of making Perrin Steward was to stop from allowing a rebel to declare himself a Lord and then the crown to create a precedent by allowing it.

Rand is an Andoran Lord (he is, in name, Lord of the Two Rivers, while Perrin is "Steward for the Lord Dragon in the Two Rivers" (or maybe something snappier))

 

Look, lol, I think we'll just have to agree tp agree that you're struggling with the semantics here. PERRIN is named Lord of the Two Rivers as RAND'S *Steward*- NOT Elayn'es. This was done to intentionally PREVENT Rand (as King of Illian/TDR) from having claim to any kind of ''Andoran Lordship'' in Elayne's kingdom. Lets say it together now: PERRIN is Lord of the 2R and RAND is NOT a Lord in Andor in ANY way. ... Rocket Science is hard - this ain't, lol ;-)

 

 

- Fish

No. We won't agree I'm struggling with semantics here (that was my first post in the thread). In fact, quite the reverse, you're completely MISSING THE POINT of the entire bloody exchange.

Perrin is Steward of the Two Rivers as RAND'S steward, as you say. If he is RAND'S STEWARD, then therefore RAND has a claim in the first place for Perrin to be his STEWARD. Get the idea?

In fact, seeing as I have the book just here:

Page 701 in the Hardback Verison

To quote Elayne

"If the lands are granted to the Dragon Reborn, giving him a title in Andor and making the Two Rivers his seat, then it will make sense for your home to be treated differently."

 

Now shut the hell up.

[AvroChris]

 

 

Look, lol, I think we'll just have to agree tp agree that you're struggling with the semantics here. PERRIN is named Lord of the Two Rivers as RAND'S *Steward*- NOT Elayn'es. This was done to intentionally PREVENT Rand (as King of Illian/TDR) from having claim to any kind of ''Andoran Lordship'' in Elayne's kingdom. Lets say it together now: PERRIN is Lord of the 2R and RAND is NOT a Lord in Andor in ANY way. ... Rocket Science is hard - this ain't, lol ;-)

 

 

- Fish

 

Nope, I don't think that's the case. Perrin is going to be in charge of the Two Rivers while Rand will be offered the Lordship. Perrin won't be given a title, Rand will. Simple as that, really. Concerns about the King of Illian having land in Andor were never mentioned...

[The Fisher King]

 

Though nobody knows this but Rand is the son of Tigrane which does make him royal blood does'nt it? I suppose he would be part of the royal family now like Galad right?

 

If this becomes common knowledge how would it effect this? would rand be entitled to some estates in andor being son of the former queen?

Not exactly like Galad since Morgase adopted Galad and married his father, neither of which applies to Rand. If he can prove his parentage, Rand is still probably entitled to some estates from House Mantear (Tigraine's house) - he's an illegitimate child but that doesn't seem to matter in Andor when your mother is a noble, since everyone assumes Elayne's kids will be heirs and she's not yet married. Though I doubt Rand will ever claim those, it's not like he needs more estates.

 

"Is Perrin now an Andoran High Lord or isn't he?"

In name, no - that was the point of the "let's give Two Rivers to the Dragon" manoeuvre. In practice, yes.

 

 

The point - and what happened - was actually the exact opposite, lol. They gave PERRIN lordship of the 2RIV (as ''Steward''), in order to avoid the drama/awkwardness of having RAND (the Dragon Reborn and King of Illian) be an Andoran Lord.

 

 

- Fish

The number of mistakes in your posts in this thread are actually starting to irritate me I'm afraid, forgive me.

The point of making Perrin Steward was to stop from allowing a rebel to declare himself a Lord and then the crown to create a precedent by allowing it.

Rand is an Andoran Lord (he is, in name, Lord of the Two Rivers, while Perrin is "Steward for the Lord Dragon in the Two Rivers" (or maybe something snappier))

 

Look, lol, I think we'll just have to agree tp agree that you're struggling with the semantics here. PERRIN is named Lord of the Two Rivers as RAND'S *Steward*- NOT Elayn'es. This was done to intentionally PREVENT Rand (as King of Illian/TDR) from having claim to any kind of ''Andoran Lordship'' in Elayne's kingdom. Lets say it together now: PERRIN is Lord of the 2R and RAND is NOT a Lord in Andor in ANY way. ... Rocket Science is hard - this ain't, lol ;-)

 

 

- Fish

No. We won't agree I'm struggling with semantics here (that was my first post in the thread). In fact, quite the reverse, you're completely MISSING THE POINT of the entire bloody exchange.

Perrin is Steward of the Two Rivers as RAND'S steward, as you say. If he is RAND'S STEWARD, then therefore RAND has a claim in the first place for Perrin to be his STEWARD. Get the idea?

In fact, seeing as I have the book just here:

Page 701 in the Hardback Verison

To quote Elayne

"If the lands are granted to the Dragon Reborn, giving him a title in Andor and making the Two Rivers his seat, then it will make sense for your home to be treated differently."

 

Now shut the hell up.

 

Nice debating technique, lol. Civil, polite, mature ;-)

 

I have something I'd like to say in response to you, mate - but mine most certainly would NOT be considered civil, polite or mature by you, lol ;-)

 

Anyway: Please refer to TOM Hardback Pg 699...Elayne: Lets ''Give Perrin an official title and make him High Lord of the Two Rivers.''

 

And...subsequently, if you'll read about two paragrahs later, this is indeed *exacty* what Elayne DOES do - and happily.

 

 

P.S. Have you ever looked at something and thought to yourself ''This really shouldn't be this hard to understand?'' lol ;)

 

 

- Fish

[Lacanos]

 

Though nobody knows this but Rand is the son of Tigrane which does make him royal blood does'nt it? I suppose he would be part of the royal family now like Galad right?

 

If this becomes common knowledge how would it effect this? would rand be entitled to some estates in andor being son of the former queen?

Not exactly like Galad since Morgase adopted Galad and married his father, neither of which applies to Rand. If he can prove his parentage, Rand is still probably entitled to some estates from House Mantear (Tigraine's house) - he's an illegitimate child but that doesn't seem to matter in Andor when your mother is a noble, since everyone assumes Elayne's kids will be heirs and she's not yet married. Though I doubt Rand will ever claim those, it's not like he needs more estates.

 

"Is Perrin now an Andoran High Lord or isn't he?"

In name, no - that was the point of the "let's give Two Rivers to the Dragon" manoeuvre. In practice, yes.

 

 

The point - and what happened - was actually the exact opposite, lol. They gave PERRIN lordship of the 2RIV (as ''Steward''), in order to avoid the drama/awkwardness of having RAND (the Dragon Reborn and King of Illian) be an Andoran Lord.

 

 

- Fish

The number of mistakes in your posts in this thread are actually starting to irritate me I'm afraid, forgive me.

The point of making Perrin Steward was to stop from allowing a rebel to declare himself a Lord and then the crown to create a precedent by allowing it.

Rand is an Andoran Lord (he is, in name, Lord of the Two Rivers, while Perrin is "Steward for the Lord Dragon in the Two Rivers" (or maybe something snappier))

 

Look, lol, I think we'll just have to agree tp agree that you're struggling with the semantics here. PERRIN is named Lord of the Two Rivers as RAND'S *Steward*- NOT Elayn'es. This was done to intentionally PREVENT Rand (as King of Illian/TDR) from having claim to any kind of ''Andoran Lordship'' in Elayne's kingdom. Lets say it together now: PERRIN is Lord of the 2R and RAND is NOT a Lord in Andor in ANY way. ... Rocket Science is hard - this ain't, lol ;-)

 

 

- Fish

No. We won't agree I'm struggling with semantics here (that was my first post in the thread). In fact, quite the reverse, you're completely MISSING THE POINT of the entire bloody exchange.

Perrin is Steward of the Two Rivers as RAND'S steward, as you say. If he is RAND'S STEWARD, then therefore RAND has a claim in the first place for Perrin to be his STEWARD. Get the idea?

In fact, seeing as I have the book just here:

Page 701 in the Hardback Verison

To quote Elayne

"If the lands are granted to the Dragon Reborn, giving him a title in Andor and making the Two Rivers his seat, then it will make sense for your home to be treated differently."

 

Now shut the hell up.

 

Nice debating technique, lol. Civil, polite, mature ;-)

 

I have something I'd like to say in response to you, mate - but mine most certainly would NOT be considered civil, polite or mature by you, lol ;-)

 

Anyway: Please refer to TOM Hardback Pg 699...Elayne: Lets ''Give Perrin an official title and make him High Lord of the Two Rivers.''

 

And...subsequently, if you'll read about two paragrahs later, this is indeed *exacty* what Elayne DOES do - and happily.

 

 

P.S. Have you ever looked at something and thought to yourself ''This really shouldn't be this hard to understand?'' lol ;)

 

 

- Fish

I'm normally very polite on these forums. However, just how stubborn you're being here is ridiculous.

My quote is after yours, it's the END course of action, not just one mooted.

And your quote is from FAILE, not Elayne. "Nothing, really, that doesn't exist already," Faile said. "Give Perrin an official title and make him High Lord over the Two Rivers".

 

So basically, we've established quite clearly that RAND has a title in Andor from the quote I gave before, even though you wrongly claimed otherwise (you seem to be conceding that point now).

We've also established that Perrin is Rand's Steward, as you didn't seem to be disputing before.

 

So WHAT are you arguing now?!

[The Fisher King]

 

Though nobody knows this but Rand is the son of Tigrane which does make him royal blood does'nt it? I suppose he would be part of the royal family now like Galad right?

 

If this becomes common knowledge how would it effect this? would rand be entitled to some estates in andor being son of the former queen?

Not exactly like Galad since Morgase adopted Galad and married his father, neither of which applies to Rand. If he can prove his parentage, Rand is still probably entitled to some estates from House Mantear (Tigraine's house) - he's an illegitimate child but that doesn't seem to matter in Andor when your mother is a noble, since everyone assumes Elayne's kids will be heirs and she's not yet married. Though I doubt Rand will ever claim those, it's not like he needs more estates.

 

"Is Perrin now an Andoran High Lord or isn't he?"

In name, no - that was the point of the "let's give Two Rivers to the Dragon" manoeuvre. In practice, yes.

 

 

The point - and what happened - was actually the exact opposite, lol. They gave PERRIN lordship of the 2RIV (as ''Steward''), in order to avoid the drama/awkwardness of having RAND (the Dragon Reborn and King of Illian) be an Andoran Lord.

 

 

- Fish

The number of mistakes in your posts in this thread are actually starting to irritate me I'm afraid, forgive me.

The point of making Perrin Steward was to stop from allowing a rebel to declare himself a Lord and then the crown to create a precedent by allowing it.

Rand is an Andoran Lord (he is, in name, Lord of the Two Rivers, while Perrin is "Steward for the Lord Dragon in the Two Rivers" (or maybe something snappier))

 

Look, lol, I think we'll just have to agree tp agree that you're struggling with the semantics here. PERRIN is named Lord of the Two Rivers as RAND'S *Steward*- NOT Elayn'es. This was done to intentionally PREVENT Rand (as King of Illian/TDR) from having claim to any kind of ''Andoran Lordship'' in Elayne's kingdom. Lets say it together now: PERRIN is Lord of the 2R and RAND is NOT a Lord in Andor in ANY way. ... Rocket Science is hard - this ain't, lol ;-)

 

 

- Fish

No. We won't agree I'm struggling with semantics here (that was my first post in the thread). In fact, quite the reverse, you're completely MISSING THE POINT of the entire bloody exchange.

Perrin is Steward of the Two Rivers as RAND'S steward, as you say. If he is RAND'S STEWARD, then therefore RAND has a claim in the first place for Perrin to be his STEWARD. Get the idea?

In fact, seeing as I have the book just here:

Page 701 in the Hardback Verison

To quote Elayne

"If the lands are granted to the Dragon Reborn, giving him a title in Andor and making the Two Rivers his seat, then it will make sense for your home to be treated differently."

 

Now shut the hell up.

 

Nice debating technique, lol. Civil, polite, mature ;-)

 

I have something I'd like to say in response to you, mate - but mine most certainly would NOT be considered civil, polite or mature by you, lol ;-)

 

Anyway: Please refer to TOM Hardback Pg 699...Elayne: Lets ''Give Perrin an official title and make him High Lord of the Two Rivers.''

 

And...subsequently, if you'll read about two paragrahs later, this is indeed *exacty* what Elayne DOES do - and happily.

 

 

P.S. Have you ever looked at something and thought to yourself ''This really shouldn't be this hard to understand?'' lol ;)

 

 

- Fish

I'm normally very polite on these forums. However, just how stubborn you're being here is ridiculous.

My quote is after yours, it's the END course of action, not just one mooted.

And your quote is from FAILE, not Elayne. "Nothing, really, that doesn't exist already," Faile said. "Give Perrin an official title and make him High Lord over the Two Rivers".

 

So basically, we've established quite clearly that RAND has a title in Andor from the quote I gave before, even though you wrongly claimed otherwise (you seem to be conceding that point now).

We've also established that Perrin is Rand's Steward, as you didn't seem to be disputing before.

 

So WHAT are you arguing now?!

 

Look, I'm not trying to be rude; I guess we are just interpreting the scene in two different ways. The wonderful thing about life is that there is now law against two people having differing opinions. I think that is the case here. Its all good.

 

 

- Fish

[Suttree]

I'm normally very polite on these forums. However, just how stubborn you're being here is ridiculous.

My quote is after yours, it's the END course of action, not just one mooted.

And your quote is from FAILE, not Elayne. "Nothing, really, that doesn't exist already," Faile said. "Give Perrin an official title and make him High Lord over the Two Rivers".

 

So basically, we've established quite clearly that RAND has a title in Andor from the quote I gave before, even though you wrongly claimed otherwise (you seem to be conceding that point now).

We've also established that Perrin is Rand's Steward, as you didn't seem to be disputing before.

 

So WHAT are you arguing now?!

 

I would like to hear you expand on the reasons the seat was given to The Dragon Reborn? Do you think he is expected to take it and fulfill his Lordly duties or will Perrin rule in all but name. I know Elayne said that she didn't want to be seen as giving in to rebels but the main point was to explain the special designation the Two Rivers was getting so the Lords would not be upset. See my quotes in the above post and below Elayne talking about marrying her children to Perrin.

 

ToM A Teaching Chamber

If the Two River is to be ruled by a Lord with as much power as this treaty would give him(Perrin), then I would love to have blood connections to the throne

 

I think we can all agree that the Dragon's Seat is the TR and Perrin is Steward but in practice Perrin will be the one ruling.

[Jillain Sanche]

Why involve Rand at all? Pettiness to give it to her lover as opposed to one of his two best friends, who in this case is the leader followed by the people of the Two Rivers?

 

I can see the point that she raised execution as a manipulative tactic; although Perrin has always been known to give an honest straight answer and it was not necessary even though his wife was raised in court politics herself.

 

I need to reread the chapter, I am sure. But on first read, I liked Elayne less. Yeah, sure, she cannot be seen as being weak on the territories, BUT what has Andor ever done for the Two Rivers beyond claim it and enjoy its tabac?

[The Fisher King]

Why involve Rand at all? Pettiness to give it to her lover as opposed to one of his two best friends, who in this case is the leader followed by the people of the Two Rivers?

 

I can see the point that she raised execution as a manipulative tactic; although Perrin has always been known to give an honest straight answer and it was not necessary even though his wife was raised in court politics herself.

 

I need to reread the chapter, I am sure. But on first read, I liked Elayne less. Yeah, sure, she cannot be seen as being weak on the territories, BUT what has Andor ever done for the Two Rivers beyond claim it and enjoy its tabac?

 

Great points...I think that Elayne, here, was trying to be politically ''Slick'' - Ala Berelain or Morgase - but ended up not coming off quite as well.

 

I love Elayne because she often comes off as sooo many different myriad of characteristics: Petty, snide, arrogant, charming, ditzy, kind, sweet, funny.

 

 

 

- Fish

[Nooska]

The main, and sole, point of making Rand the lord of T2R is to avoid the very dangerous precedent that you can become a lord by declaring yoursef one and raising an army. We are asked to set aside our meta knowledge that that, in fact, is one way of becoming a lord, by claiming to be and having the force of arms to enforce the claim.

 

Perrin is not made a lord, but is expected to be the ruler in name as well as in practise - steward is a title of someone ruling in place of another. For in book references we have Dobraine, ruling Cairhien in Rand's stead, and Darlin ruling Tear in Rand's stead. Since Rand is not integrated and only has his own memories and the advice of Moiraine at this point, the function of Steward must be well known as a Lord without claim to the actual title (of the land governed).

 

Whether Perrin will gain an actual lord title is left unanswered, but the indications is that he might just get that - it wouldn't be dangerous to give him a title based on his position as steward combined with his claims by marriage - its the Aybara / Goldeneyes line that will rule Saldaea unless Tenobia pulls some children out her backside. Thats a lot less denagerous than giving a title to a selfstyled lord with an army - even though, in practice, there is no difference.

 

The whole point of the scene is to find an arrangement that avoids the dangerous precedents while acknowledging the claim put forward - Elayne probably also knows that little story Bashere told Perrin back in LoC (ch 46); "Boy, the Creator never made the Houses. Some forget it, but go far enough back in any House, and you'll find a commoner who showed uncommon courage or kept his head and took charge when everybody else was running around like plucked geese." - she knows it, even if she doesn't want to admit it, and if she doesn't both Lini and her mother would gladly educate her.

[The Fisher King]

The main, and sole, point of making Rand the lord of T2R is to avoid the very dangerous precedent that you can become a lord by declaring yoursef one and raising an army. We are asked to set aside our meta knowledge that that, in fact, is one way of becoming a lord, by claiming to be and having the force of arms to enforce the claim.

 

Perrin is not made a lord, but is expected to be the ruler in name as well as in practise - steward is a title of someone ruling in place of another. For in book references we have Dobraine, ruling Cairhien in Rand's stead, and Darlin ruling Tear in Rand's stead. Since Rand is not integrated and only has his own memories and the advice of Moiraine at this point, the function of Steward must be well known as a Lord without claim to the actual title (of the land governed).

 

Whether Perrin will gain an actual lord title is left unanswered, but the indications is that he might just get that - it wouldn't be dangerous to give him a title based on his position as steward combined with his claims by marriage - its the Aybara / Goldeneyes line that will rule Saldaea unless Tenobia pulls some children out her backside. Thats a lot less denagerous than giving a title to a selfstyled lord with an army - even though, in practice, there is no difference.

 

The whole point of the scene is to find an arrangement that avoids the dangerous precedents while acknowledging the claim put forward - Elayne probably also knows that little story Bashere told Perrin back in LoC (ch 46); "Boy, the Creator never made the Houses. Some forget it, but go far enough back in any House, and you'll find a commoner who showed uncommon courage or kept his head and took charge when everybody else was running around like plucked geese." - she knows it, even if she doesn't want to admit it, and if she doesn't both Lini and her mother would gladly educate her.

 

 

But what about the Steward of Gondor??

 

 

- Fish

[Dakota]

The main, and sole, point of making Rand the lord of T2R is to avoid the very dangerous precedent that you can become a lord by declaring yoursef one and raising an army. We are asked to set aside our meta knowledge that that, in fact, is one way of becoming a lord, by claiming to be and having the force of arms to enforce the claim.

 

Perrin is not made a lord, but is expected to be the ruler in name as well as in practise - steward is a title of someone ruling in place of another. For in book references we have Dobraine, ruling Cairhien in Rand's stead, and Darlin ruling Tear in Rand's stead. Since Rand is not integrated and only has his own memories and the advice of Moiraine at this point, the function of Steward must be well known as a Lord without claim to the actual title (of the land governed).

 

Whether Perrin will gain an actual lord title is left unanswered, but the indications is that he might just get that - it wouldn't be dangerous to give him a title based on his position as steward combined with his claims by marriage - its the Aybara / Goldeneyes line that will rule Saldaea unless Tenobia pulls some children out her backside. Thats a lot less denagerous than giving a title to a selfstyled lord with an army - even though, in practice, there is no difference.

 

The whole point of the scene is to find an arrangement that avoids the dangerous precedents while acknowledging the claim put forward - Elayne probably also knows that little story Bashere told Perrin back in LoC (ch 46); "Boy, the Creator never made the Houses. Some forget it, but go far enough back in any House, and you'll find a commoner who showed uncommon courage or kept his head and took charge when everybody else was running around like plucked geese." - she knows it, even if she doesn't want to admit it, and if she doesn't both Lini and her mother would gladly educate her.

 

 

But what about the Steward of Gondor??

 

 

- Fish

 

The Steward of Gondor ruled in the name of the last king who rode off to war and never return. Generations passed and they became kings for all intents and purposes, until someone with royal blood claimed the throne. If not for all the traditions, they probably could have named themselves kings at any point they wanted.

So it holds true, the stewards were ruling Gondor in place of the extinct line of kings.

Back to the series at hand tho.

[RahulSingh]

so what happens if one of rands childrens tries to claim 2R then...

[Mandro]

My Biggest problem with the series, is how selfish the women are. Rand, Matt and Perrin are accidental heroes and lords, they didn't desire it, but that is who they are. The women are selfish and think that securing their status is more important than the end of the world. a friend of mine met robert jordan at a book signing forever ago, and she said he was off the cuff and kinda joking, but she thought that either he knew that women weren't like that but was writing for boys who thought that women were, or that he really did think women are that manipulative. She said it was a strange exchange, I will have to ask her.

[Mandro]

Oh left out the most obvious argument. BS and RJ undwrote perrin in this conversation. He touched on it, but I think perrin should have made it clear that TG was coming, and we can negotiate later. Whenever Elayne got selfish (and that's what she was doing, being selfish) Perrin should have said "we didn't rebel, you abandoned us, and the Dragon and your husband." or something. I would have been merciless.

[Nooska]

so what happens if one of rands childrens tries to claim 2R then...

That depends on Andoran inheritence laws and traditions when pertaining to land and titles.

So far in the book we have only seen the succession laws and traditions in any detail, and the regular inheritence laws aren't just a simpler version of that.

We this because we have seen both male and female heads of houses, and we have seen 1 house where there is a single offspring of the last head of the house, mantear, where the title and lands have jumped somewhere else.

That said, the agreement that was reached was making Perrins line stewards, and since a steward is not a titleholder in itself that would mean that whoever has claim to Rands Andoran titles would gain the "High Lord of T2R", with Perrins line still serving as stewards - a sort of lower nobility - for the next High Lord.

That being said, I do believe the discussed marriage plans would mean that whichever of Rands children would inherit T2R is the one set to marry the heir to the stewardship by Perrin on Faile, making the whole point moot as the plan was to merge the 2 lines in the very next generation.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I've mentioned this a few times but I guess I should confirm, did they actually make a binding (ie oathbound) agreement? I can't see how they could have with Rand not being there, you can't swear someone to a throne when they don't even know about it.

Only my book's a good few miles away at this point.

 

I think it was implied that all the official ''I Dotting'' was done offscreen. I'm not sure why Rand would be needed to make anything official. He's not a King or a member of any ruling house in Andor, Tear or Cairhein, He IS the King of Illian and wears the Laurel Crown but thats irrelevant to this situation. Obviously hes the Dragon Reborn, but again, that doesn't affect what the kings and queens of the world (except, again, Illian, where he wears the Crown of Swords) do.

 

It does if what those Queens are doing involves swearing him to their Throne!

He should have been involved in the discussion because the whole premise of it was that he would be Lord of the Two Rivers but still subservient to the Throne, and that Perrin was to be sworn to him. If Rand wasn't involved and doesn't even know about the agreement he can't be sworn to the Throne, and so the situations people have been talking about can't really take place. You could probably swear Perrin to the throne and name him Steward until the whole business is formalised, but we saw no indication that that has happened - he said outright he was going to follow Rand at the FoM, even if Elayne disagreed.

Imagine if Elayne turned up to the Fields of Merillor and said "actually, you can't break the seals because you're sworn to me because I said so to your friend". She'd be laughed off the throne!

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the arrangement is entirely dependent on Rand agreeing with it, and they haven't even mentioned it to him yet.

A fair point, but a terrible example - being sworn to Elayne would bring with it certain duties and responsibilities as a lord, but he has duties and responsibilities outside of the TR that have nothing to do with Andor (and thus are not subject to the Andoran crown) - for example, him being King of Illian. Elayne could order him around as a vassal on Andoran matters, but he would be an equal on matters of international relations between their respective countries. But the essential point you made is, as a said, a fair one. Elayne cannot confer new duties and responsibilities on Rand without his consent. However, I would contend that the duties conferred upon him are in name only - unless and until he decides to take up the duties, Perrin functions as Lord in all but name. If Rand never took up his duties, he would thus never have to swear, and him being a lord subject to the Andoran crown would be, in effect, a lordship on paper only with all parties understanding that the relationship between Queen and High Lord's Steward should function as if Rand didn't exist. If and when he decides to take up his duties there, then his swearing will become a necessity, not before.

 

This is not how liegeship or vassal relationships have worked. Ever. Try studying European history from, oh well lets say 1100-1850.

Again? Excessive, surely. The TR is part of Andor. The High lord of the TR (or his Steward, in practice) thus comes when the Queen of Andor calls, not when the King of Illian calls. Of course, in purely practical terms, it's pretty difficult to force Rand to do anything. If he decided to call the TR to support Illian, he would, and if he didn't call them to support Andor, then Elayne can't really do much beyond be annoyed. Difference between law and fact. Lawfully, he should come when she calls, in fact he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to. And child, do not presume to lecture me on history.

 

A typical Henry the Lion dilemma no? Also it's unbecoming of you to act so immature. Leave the personal attacks out of this please. Let us act a bit civilized here if you don't mind? Also I believe there is not a single culture on this small earth which would still consider me a child at my present age. Since you are obviously aware of my age though, feel free to enlighten me.

 

If it were the case as you say. What I don't understand is why was only the King of England capable of marshaling the forces in Normandy, Aquitaine, Anjou, Maine, Gascony and Nantes? I mean these were French principalities and lands with French inhabitants whose lord descended from a line of French dukes. For example Henry II in his fight against Stephen drafted entire armies out of those regions. Yet Louis VII could not raise a single soldier from any of those regions. Louis VII could also not beckon King Henry II (even though he was an Angevin Duke born in the French principality Maine) to swear fealty to him or call him to banners either despite being the King of France where a multitude of King Henry II's holdings were. Hell, the only reason King Henry II could force the Treaty of Wallingford on Stephen was because of his vast French holdings giving him a strong supply of soldiers for invasions of mainland England.

 

The correlation is certainly there. The King of Illian has vast holdings in Andor (Two Rivers), so why should Elayne's position be any different from that of Louis VII? Or Perrin/Faile as regents of Saldaea have to beckon and hearken to Elayne's call to arms if Henry II never had to either? No one ever spoke of treason in the Louis VII/Henry II case either. Albeit I believe Louis VII was wise enough never to waste his breath trying to call Henry II to his servitude in arms.

[The Fisher King]

I've mentioned this a few times but I guess I should confirm, did they actually make a binding (ie oathbound) agreement? I can't see how they could have with Rand not being there, you can't swear someone to a throne when they don't even know about it.

Only my book's a good few miles away at this point.

 

I think it was implied that all the official ''I Dotting'' was done offscreen. I'm not sure why Rand would be needed to make anything official. He's not a King or a member of any ruling house in Andor, Tear or Cairhein, He IS the King of Illian and wears the Laurel Crown but thats irrelevant to this situation. Obviously hes the Dragon Reborn, but again, that doesn't affect what the kings and queens of the world (except, again, Illian, where he wears the Crown of Swords) do.

 

It does if what those Queens are doing involves swearing him to their Throne!

He should have been involved in the discussion because the whole premise of it was that he would be Lord of the Two Rivers but still subservient to the Throne, and that Perrin was to be sworn to him. If Rand wasn't involved and doesn't even know about the agreement he can't be sworn to the Throne, and so the situations people have been talking about can't really take place. You could probably swear Perrin to the throne and name him Steward until the whole business is formalised, but we saw no indication that that has happened - he said outright he was going to follow Rand at the FoM, even if Elayne disagreed.

Imagine if Elayne turned up to the Fields of Merillor and said "actually, you can't break the seals because you're sworn to me because I said so to your friend". She'd be laughed off the throne!

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the arrangement is entirely dependent on Rand agreeing with it, and they haven't even mentioned it to him yet.

A fair point, but a terrible example - being sworn to Elayne would bring with it certain duties and responsibilities as a lord, but he has duties and responsibilities outside of the TR that have nothing to do with Andor (and thus are not subject to the Andoran crown) - for example, him being King of Illian. Elayne could order him around as a vassal on Andoran matters, but he would be an equal on matters of international relations between their respective countries. But the essential point you made is, as a said, a fair one. Elayne cannot confer new duties and responsibilities on Rand without his consent. However, I would contend that the duties conferred upon him are in name only - unless and until he decides to take up the duties, Perrin functions as Lord in all but name. If Rand never took up his duties, he would thus never have to swear, and him being a lord subject to the Andoran crown would be, in effect, a lordship on paper only with all parties understanding that the relationship between Queen and High Lord's Steward should function as if Rand didn't exist. If and when he decides to take up his duties there, then his swearing will become a necessity, not before.

 

This is not how liegeship or vassal relationships have worked. Ever. Try studying European history from, oh well lets say 1100-1850.

Again? Excessive, surely. The TR is part of Andor. The High lord of the TR (or his Steward, in practice) thus comes when the Queen of Andor calls, not when the King of Illian calls. Of course, in purely practical terms, it's pretty difficult to force Rand to do anything. If he decided to call the TR to support Illian, he would, and if he didn't call them to support Andor, then Elayne can't really do much beyond be annoyed. Difference between law and fact. Lawfully, he should come when she calls, in fact he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to. And child, do not presume to lecture me on history.

 

A typical Henry the Lion dilemma no? Also it's unbecoming of you to act so immature. Leave the personal attacks out of this please. Let us act a bit civilized here if you don't mind? Also I believe there is not a single culture on this small earth which would still consider me a child at my present age. Since you are obviously aware of my age though, feel free to enlighten me.

 

If it were the case as you say. What I don't understand is why was only the King of England capable of marshaling the forces in Normandy, Aquitaine, Anjou, Maine, Gascony and Nantes? I mean these were French principalities and lands with French inhabitants whose lord descended from a line of French dukes. For example Henry II in his fight against Stephen drafted entire armies out of those regions. Yet Louis VII could not raise a single soldier from any of those regions. Louis VII could also not beckon King Henry II (even though he was an Angevin Duke born in the French principality Maine) to swear fealty to him or call him to banners either despite being the King of France where a multitude of King Henry II's holdings were. Hell, the only reason King Henry II could force the Treaty of Wallingford on Stephen was because of his vast French holdings giving him a strong supply of soldiers for invasions of mainland England.

 

The correlation is certainly there. The King of Illian has vast holdings in Andor (Two Rivers), so why should Elayne's position be any different from that of Louis VII? Or Perrin/Faile as regents of Saldaea have to beckon and hearken to Elayne's call to arms if Henry II never had to either? No one ever spoke of treason in the Louis VII/Henry II case either. Albeit I believe Louis VII was wise enough never to waste his breath trying to call Henry II to his servitude in arms.

 

 

ZACTLY!!! - It ALL comes back to the fact that Rand wears the Laurel Crown.

 

 

- Fish

[moratcorlm]

I'm wondering what about Brandon Sanderson's writings has given people the impression that he knows a quarter as much about history as anyone in this thread who's dropping names? The politics, the cultural and economic allusions, the language and modes of address: it's clear, and not just from Elayne's chapters, that Sanderson lacks most of the knowledge Jordan had, and Jordan himself was merely an educated amateur (and one who certainly never claimed to be adopting medieval, Renaissance, and early modern European customs wholesale at that).