Perrin's new station in Andor

[Annia]

Really, people!

 

I happen to be of the opinion, that Elayne wouldn't have had any chance of getting the throne without Rand etc, but if you really want to duel over this silly semantics issue, could you find some other avenue for your catfight? Perhaps we can agree to disagree on the subject? The world wont end if we can't convince each other that we are in possession of the absolute truth and lay golden eggs.

 

 

Can we get back to Perrin's new station in Andor?

[randsc]

Perrin clearly still feels himself to be an independent actor, not someone who must follow where Elayne leads.

Darlin and Gregorin are sworn to Rand yet it seems they (definitely Darlin) are willing to go against him in regards to breaking the seal or are atleast on the fence.

 

 

Further proof that the elaborate, "He will have to come when she calls because X, Y, Z" arguments people constructed in this thread fail.

 

People in Randland simply don't seem to believe as the royalists here do.

Deciding whether or not to support breaking the seals has to do with his role as the "Dragon's Bannerman," not in his role as Elayne's liegeman.

 

A similar example would be Elayne would have no legitimate authority to use Rand (if he regains his role as Lord of tTR) to interfere in Illian.

 

You're not splitting hairs, you're splitting hairs ON the hairs.

 

The bottom line is that Perrin clearly feels no need to do as Elayne commands. This is in the text, unlike all of the elaborate arguments in favor of Trakand omnipotence we have seen on this thread.

[AvroChris]

Really, people!

 

I happen to be of the opinion, that Elayne wouldn't have had any chance of getting the throne without Rand etc, but if you really want to duel over this silly semantics issue, could you find some other avenue for your catfight? Perhaps we can agree to disagree on the subject? The world wont end if we can't convince each other that we are in possession of the absolute truth and lay golden eggs.

 

 

Can we get back to Perrin's new station in Andor?

 

Oddly enough, we seem to have gone so far round the houses that we're actually nearly back to that! What is currently happening seems to be an agreement in principle as to how things will be arranged after Tarmon Gaidon assuming everyone involved survives. At the minute, Perrin seems inclined to do pretty much exactly as he feels in matters relating to Tarmon Gaidon and the Dragon Reborn.

[Songstress]

Just as a side note, now that this thread is pretty much back on topic

 

Does Elayne have the right to Andor's throne, under the laws and traditions of Andor? Yes. Colavere had the right to Cairhein's throne, under the laws and traditions of Cairhein. If Rand had wanted Elayne's story to end like Colavere's, it would have.

 

Slight diff in that Elayne was Daughter Heir who went about securing her throne in the honored tradition of Andoran nobility while Colavere was a cold blooded murderer.

 

From Moiraine's description in NS, it sounded like cold blooded murder was the honored tradition of Cairheinin nobility.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Can we get back to Perrin's new station in Andor?

 

The key word is personal union, isn't it? The Perrin who is steward of the Two Rivers is an independant person from the Perrin who is Alliandre's sovereign and again a different person from the one might end up Consort to the Queen of Saldaea politically and legally speaking. All Elayne can do is demand his help and the help of his allegiances in her defense as they agreed. In all other things Elayne has no hold over him.

[meeker]

Perrin clearly still feels himself to be an independent actor, not someone who must follow where Elayne leads.

Darlin and Gregorin are sworn to Rand yet it seems they (definitely Darlin) are willing to go against him in regards to breaking the seal or are atleast on the fence.

 

I really have nothing to back this up but when I read Darlin's letter it felt like something he collaborated with Rand on. I am not so sure he is really on the fence.

[randsc]

Perrin clearly still feels himself to be an independent actor, not someone who must follow where Elayne leads.

Darlin and Gregorin are sworn to Rand yet it seems they (definitely Darlin) are willing to go against him in regards to breaking the seal or are atleast on the fence.

 

I really have nothing to back this up but when I read Darlin's letter it felt like something he collaborated with Rand on. I am not so sure he is really on the fence.

 

Darlin's letter makes it clear that he would like to hear discussion of the breaking of the seals. It also makes it quite clear that he is loyal to Rand, regardless. Tear's forces will not be used against Rand in the event that he "forces Egwene's hand."

 

It's also clear from earlier books that Rand has some personal standing among the Defenders of the Stone.

[Vermillion]

From the visions it appears that the Two Rivers will become it's own nation.

 

Part of the problem I had with the deal is where does it leave Rands kids with her? She will have the eldest and andorian kids. Doesn't that mean if Rand dies his kids become high lord thus bring it back into the royal family?

 

I just don't see how giving a title or seceding land to a close friend of the Dragon Reborn who grew up and was chosen by the people in a land nobody cares/cared about with nearly 100k troops and foreign queens following him is going to cause rebellion. Not to mention lands inside the proper have already been giving to the Black Tower and Sea Folk. Wouldn't it just seem as another favor to the Dragon Reborn anyways?

 

Outside of the main city there only seems to be a few towns and estates and lot of nothing. There are no other lords who could rise up with a swelling population, large army, foreign allies, water locked backwood area that was already independent.

[Muad Cheade]

Darlin's letter makes it clear that he would like to hear discussion of the breaking of the seals. It also makes it quite clear that he is loyal to Rand, regardless. Tear's forces will not be used against Rand in the event that he "forces Egwene's hand."

 

It's also clear from earlier books that Rand has some personal standing among the Defenders of the Stone.

 

I doubt anyone will try to attack Rand with their forces. Let alone Darlin. That is just illogical.

 

"I am not opposed to questioning the Lord Dragon. Indeed, the more absolute a man's power becomes, the more necessary questioning becomes. However, know that I am not a man who gives his loyalty easily, and I have given my loyalty to him. Not because of the throne he provided me, but because of what he has done for Tear. Yes, he grows more erratic by the day. What else are we to expect from the Dragon Reborn? He will break the world. We knew this when we gave him our allegiance, much as a sailor must sometimes give his loyalty to the captain who steers his ship straight for the strand. When an unnavigable tempest rises behind, the strand is the only option. Still, your words bring me concern. The destruction of the seals is not something we should undertake without careful discussion. The Lord Dragon charged me with raising him an army, and I have done so. If you provide the gateways you have promised, I will bring some troops to this meeting place, along with the loyal High Lords and Ladies. Be warned, however, that the Seanchan presence to my west continues to weigh heavily upon my mind. The bulk of my armies must remain behind."

 

High Lord Darlin Sisnera,

King of Tear

beneath the rule

of the Dragon Reborn

Rand al'Thor

 

Darlin essentially says he is loyal to Rand but they do need to discuss breaking the seals and he is concerned over it." That is the reason why Egwene said "by writing them, Darlin said, "I do not care if the Lord Dragon discovers what I have written. I stand by it." It shows that he will be willing to go against Rand.

 

The most interesting thing is that Illain and Tear are on opposite sides of the Field. You would assume they'd be nearer to each other as they are both more or less ruled by Rand. Perhaps Darlin and Gregorin feel differently on the matter.

 

From the visions it appears that the Two Rivers will become it's own nation.

How so? Oncala references plans to assassinate the "ruler" of the Two Rivers. Not King. However, it does imply that that individual is powerful and Ghealdan is still the vassal as plans were not made concerning the ruler of that nation.

 

Part of the problem I had with the deal is where does it leave Rands kids with her? She will have the eldest and andorian kids. Doesn't that mean if Rand dies his kids become high lord thus bring it back into the royal family?

Yes, that scenario is very possible. One of Rand and Elayne's children could also gain the throne of Illian as well. Elayne could relinquish the title to Perrin and his line or Rand could be the Lord in perpetuity and Perrin and his line remain Stewards. We don't know. Either one is possible. I think the fact that she wanted to split up the inheritance of Perrin and Faile's children would lean to the Lordship going in that direction, but I doubt we'll ever know.

 

I just don't see how giving a title or seceding land to a close friend of the Dragon Reborn who grew up and was chosen by the people in a land nobody cares/cared about with nearly 100k troops and foreign queens following him is going to cause rebellion. Not to mention lands inside the proper have already been giving to the Black Tower and Sea Folk. Wouldn't it just seem as another favor to the Dragon Reborn anyways?

Because it would allow any man to declare himself lord or king as long as he had an army at your back. It would set a disastrous precedence. Those are two exceptions and similar events are not like to be repeated again.

 

Outside of the main city there only seems to be a few towns and estates and lot of nothing. There are no other lords who could rise up with a swelling population, large army, foreign allies, water locked backwood area that was already independent.

Andor is the most populous nation. It is possible. Just look at Logain and Masema...they broke Ghealdan.

[David Selig]

I really have nothing to back this up but when I read Darlin's letter it felt like something he collaborated with Rand on. I am not so sure he is really on the fence.

I suspect it too. As we saw in the epilogue, Rand was counting on all the armies and monarchs coming to Merrilor so he could well have instructed Darlin on how to reply to her letter. I don't see Darlin going behind his back, he's loyal and as a Tairen he's probably distrustful of Aes Sedai.

 

The most interesting thing is that Illain and Tear are on opposite sides of the Field. You would assume they'd be nearer to each other as they are both more or less ruled by Rand. Perhaps Darlin and Gregorin feel differently on the matter.

More probably they just dislike each other due to the tradition of constant wars between the two countries. So they try to keep away from each other if possible.

[MasterAblar]

I really have nothing to back this up but when I read Darlin's letter it felt like something he collaborated with Rand on. I am not so sure he is really on the fence.

I suspect it too. As we saw in the epilogue, Rand was counting on all the armies and monarchs coming to Merrilor so he could well have instructed Darlin on how to reply to her letter. I don't see Darlin going behind his back, he's loyal and as a Tairen he's probably distrustful of Aes Sedai.

 

The most interesting thing is that Illain and Tear are on opposite sides of the Field. You would assume they'd be nearer to each other as they are both more or less ruled by Rand. Perhaps Darlin and Gregorin feel differently on the matter.

More probably they just dislike each other due to the tradition of constant wars between the two countries. So they try to keep away from each other if possible.

 

I agree. It's like the aiel and cairhien. They're both on rand's side but does not stop them from hating each other.

[Vermillion]

Darlin's letter makes it clear that he would like to hear discussion of the breaking of the seals. It also makes it quite clear that he is loyal to Rand, regardless. Tear's forces will not be used against Rand in the event that he "forces Egwene's hand."

 

It's also clear from earlier books that Rand has some personal standing among the Defenders of the Stone.

 

I doubt anyone will try to attack Rand with their forces. Let alone Darlin. That is just illogical.

 

"I am not opposed to questioning the Lord Dragon. Indeed, the more absolute a man's power becomes, the more necessary questioning becomes. However, know that I am not a man who gives his loyalty easily, and I have given my loyalty to him. Not because of the throne he provided me, but because of what he has done for Tear. Yes, he grows more erratic by the day. What else are we to expect from the Dragon Reborn? He will break the world. We knew this when we gave him our allegiance, much as a sailor must sometimes give his loyalty to the captain who steers his ship straight for the strand. When an unnavigable tempest rises behind, the strand is the only option. Still, your words bring me concern. The destruction of the seals is not something we should undertake without careful discussion. The Lord Dragon charged me with raising him an army, and I have done so. If you provide the gateways you have promised, I will bring some troops to this meeting place, along with the loyal High Lords and Ladies. Be warned, however, that the Seanchan presence to my west continues to weigh heavily upon my mind. The bulk of my armies must remain behind."

 

High Lord Darlin Sisnera,

King of Tear

beneath the rule

of the Dragon Reborn

Rand al'Thor

 

Darlin essentially says he is loyal to Rand but they do need to discuss breaking the seals and he is concerned over it." That is the reason why Egwene said "by writing them, Darlin said, "I do not care if the Lord Dragon discovers what I have written. I stand by it." It shows that he will be willing to go against Rand.

 

The most interesting thing is that Illain and Tear are on opposite sides of the Field. You would assume they'd be nearer to each other as they are both more or less ruled by Rand. Perhaps Darlin and Gregorin feel differently on the matter.

 

From the visions it appears that the Two Rivers will become it's own nation.

How so? Oncala references plans to assassinate the "ruler" of the Two Rivers. Not King. However, it does imply that that individual is powerful and Ghealdan is still the vassal as plans were not made concerning the ruler of that nation.

 

Part of the problem I had with the deal is where does it leave Rands kids with her? She will have the eldest and andorian kids. Doesn't that mean if Rand dies his kids become high lord thus bring it back into the royal family?

Yes, that scenario is very possible. One of Rand and Elayne's children could also gain the throne of Illian as well. Elayne could relinquish the title to Perrin and his line or Rand could be the Lord in perpetuity and Perrin and his line remain Stewards. We don't know. Either one is possible. I think the fact that she wanted to split up the inheritance of Perrin and Faile's children would lean to the Lordship going in that direction, but I doubt we'll ever know.

 

I just don't see how giving a title or seceding land to a close friend of the Dragon Reborn who grew up and was chosen by the people in a land nobody cares/cared about with nearly 100k troops and foreign queens following him is going to cause rebellion. Not to mention lands inside the proper have already been giving to the Black Tower and Sea Folk. Wouldn't it just seem as another favor to the Dragon Reborn anyways?

Because it would allow any man to declare himself lord or king as long as he had an army at your back. It would set a disastrous precedence. Those are two exceptions and similar events are not like to be repeated again.

 

Outside of the main city there only seems to be a few towns and estates and lot of nothing. There are no other lords who could rise up with a swelling population, large army, foreign allies, water locked backwood area that was already independent.

Andor is the most populous nation. It is possible. Just look at Logain and Masema...they broke Ghealdan.

 

Situation.

 

Friend of Dragon Reborn is declared Lord in back water area. Reasons that no other lord cannot do what Perrin can.

 

1. No single lord fields a large enough army to rebel. I guess if they all rebelled it could break Andor but which other noble could survive on it's own?

2. No other lord lives in an geographical isolated area. Meaning distance, rivers and mountain boundaries.

3. Population growth likely to cause the area to swell into a New York City type area of the world with influx of fugees from all over.

4. No lord is friends of the Dragon Reborn. With knowledge of Rands forces and ties to both Elayne and Perrin it's unlikely anyone wants to risk moving against Elayne if she gave .

5. No other province was not ungoverned with no Andorian troops anywhere or taxes collected.

6. Allies of a queen, a first, and married to likely queen of Saldaea after all this is over.

 

The only thing that seems to accomplish is to slow the 2 Rivers from true independence. Though it's only Andor in paper anymore than it had been.

[Mr Ares]

Perrin clearly still feels himself to be an independent actor, not someone who must follow where Elayne leads.

Darlin and Gregorin are sworn to Rand yet it seems they (definitely Darlin) are willing to go against him in regards to breaking the seal or are atleast on the fence.

 

 

Further proof that the elaborate, "He will have to come when she calls because X, Y, Z" arguments people constructed in this thread fail.

 

People in Randland simply don't seem to believe as the royalists here do.

Deciding whether or not to support breaking the seals has to do with his role as the "Dragon's Bannerman," not in his role as Elayne's liegeman.

 

A similar example would be Elayne would have no legitimate authority to use Rand (if he regains his role as Lord of tTR) to interfere in Illian.

 

You're not splitting hairs, you're splitting hairs ON the hairs.

 

The bottom line is that Perrin clearly feels no need to do as Elayne commands. This is in the text, unlike all of the elaborate arguments in favor of Trakand omnipotence we have seen on this thread.

Hardly relevant to anything. Even if this was a matter in which Elayne could command Perrin as his Queen, the fact that vassals can be disloyal has been mentioned before this. So Perrin deciding for himself on this matter really says nothing at all other than that in this matter he will listen to his conscience, not his Queen.

 

 

The only thing that seems to accomplish is to slow the 2 Rivers from true independence.

Which is surely a good, thing, considering the benefits the TR has enjoyed in being an autonomous Andoran province rather than fully independant. Principally, tariff-free trade with Andor.