Perrin's new station in Andor

[blazetheearth]

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

 

Not quite. This is the case of Perrin adheres to any summons from Elayne. This is merely going by the assumption that Perrin won't rebuff Elayne or stand against her on a matter. However if Perrin would choose to ignore or set himself against Elayne, then Saldaea and Ghealdan would stand with Perrin against Elayne. Since Ghealdan's liegeship is with House Aybara and Ghealdan musters when Aybara calls and not when Caemlyn calls.

 

and that would be rebellion, always a possibility I guess but highly unlikely in this case. The point is Ghealdan's liegeship is with House Aybara, Aybara's is with Elayne. You can come up with "what if" scenarios all you like but short of rebellion, Ghealdan comes when Andor calls.

 

What do you mean it wasn't Rand's to give? He gave it to her regardless of legal precedent. He established a firm rule over Caemlyn by ousting Lord Gaebril and then he presented her the City and the Kingdom. That is the very definition of giving. Elayne did not earn her Kingdom by any mean feats, she was granted Andor by grace of the Dragon. Much in the same way that Cairhien is being granted to her. It is advantageous to be carrying the offspring of the most powerful conqueror on the continent.

 

It wasn't Rand's to give at all. In fact its stated in the story numerous times how much of a disaster that would have been. The Dragon never claimed Andor, he was just acting regent. If only what you say in bold above was true, we could have been spared the whole Succession storyline which is where Elayne gained the throne.

 

I disagree completely with you on the first part, but I agree completely about the second part.

 

The parallel between Elayne and Perrin is quite specific. Elayne herself is answerable to Tar Valon, but refuses to subjugate the nations she controls to the rule of the the Amrylin. Perrin himself (and his Andoran lands) would be subject to the Queens call, but that does not imply that lands within other nations would be subjected to it. If Andor and Cairhenien are not answerable to Tar Valon, then Ghealdan and Saldaea will not have to answer to Camelyn. You can't have it both ways, and if Elayne tries to have it both ways then Perrin should rebel against her.

 

Andor was never Rand's. From the moment he captured the city, he announced that he intended to act as regent. He did not give her Andor. As a matter of fact, he made Elayne's take over much more difficult by allowing the nobles that eventually started the Succession War to reside in the palace and be seen as having the DR's favor.

[moratcorlm]

It certainly defies all logic and no sane diplomat would ever advise what she did

Whether that is true or not will be completely immaterial to the outcome, should there be one.

[AquilaInfernus]

 

The Andoran succession story has thus far done nothing at all to advance the plot, never mind resolve it. believe it our not, even this series will have a plot resolution at some point. And I stand by my statement. When we reach that plot resolution, it will turn out that the overall narrative would not have changed if the whole succession storyline were reduced to that one line. Unless you think it will be revealed that if Dylin becomes Queen, the Dark One wins?

 

By that logic, we shouldn't have any other plot than Rand's quest to break the seals, but as has been said before, criticism comes to authors who fail to keep characters on screen (and probably tie up loose ends). The repeated extent of RJ's notes suggest the story really was going to be this convoluted, especially given he's on record saying he knew how the story would end. Scrap most of the prophecies, most of the Forsaken etc. Oh Damn, we just lost a fantastically detailed and richly complex world for something half the length of LotR (and the detail and complexity are probably why so many enjoy the books).

 

And the reason we defend the logic of the books is because it is quite clear that it is supposed to be a clever response to a potentially life-threatening set of circumstances

 

Has anyone realised that within one or two generations there might be a candidate for leadership of Saldaea, Andor, Cairhein, and Illian. You might also be able to add Tear, Mayene, Ghealdan, Arad Doman or one of the other borderlands through clever marriage

[Fel]

Andor was never Rand's. From the moment he captured the city, he announced that he intended to act as regent. He did not give her Andor. As a matter of fact, he made Elayne's take over much more difficult by allowing the nobles that eventually started the Succession War to reside in the palace and be seen as having the DR's favor.

I'm sorry, I know people keep saying it over and over again, but Rand DID give Elayne Andor. Look at it in these 2 ways:

 

1 - What would have happened if rand killed Rahvin and left? Would Elayne be queen now? Of course not. They would not have left the throne empty for however long she was in Ebou Dar/Salidar, especially after the issues Morgase caused at the end under compulsion. She would have come back to meet her new Queen Dyelin.

2 - What would have happened if another house tried to claim the throne while Bael/Bashere were there? They would have been locked up in 2 heartbeats for rebelling against Elayne, despite the fact that Elayne hasn't bothered to come claim her throne.

 

So, Rand liberated her land, then made it very clear to everyone that Elayne was the one who was going to take the throne and then he held the country for her for months when she could not be bothered to take it herself.

 

Then, she comes back and says "i'm here, give me the crown" and your position is that she earned it all by herself? That's like a trust fund baby thinking they *earned* the money because they had to fill out some paperwork to receive it.

 

 

Final note: How effective do you think she would have been at repelling the rival houses if she did not already sit nicely protected in Camelyn? Even with holding the city AND having travelling to move her forces about, she barely held them off. If rand had not *given* her Camelyn, she would never have stood a chance.

[blazetheearth]

Andor was never Rand's. From the moment he captured the city, he announced that he intended to act as regent. He did not give her Andor. As a matter of fact, he made Elayne's take over much more difficult by allowing the nobles that eventually started the Succession War to reside in the palace and be seen as having the DR's favor.

I'm sorry, I know people keep saying it over and over again, but Rand DID give Elayne Andor. Look at it in these 2 ways:

 

1 - What would have happened if rand killed Rahvin and left? Would Elayne be queen now? Of course not. They would not have left the throne empty for however long she was in Ebou Dar/Salidar, especially after the issues Morgase caused at the end under compulsion. She would have come back to meet her new Queen Dyelin.

2 - What would have happened if another house tried to claim the throne while Bael/Bashere were there? They would have been locked up in 2 heartbeats for rebelling against Elayne, despite the fact that Elayne hasn't bothered to come claim her throne.

 

So, Rand liberated her land, then made it very clear to everyone that Elayne was the one who was going to take the throne and then he held the country for her for months when she could not be bothered to take it herself.

 

Then, she comes back and says "i'm here, give me the crown" and your position is that she earned it all by herself? That's like a trust fund baby thinking they *earned* the money because they had to fill out some paperwork to receive it.

 

 

Final note: How effective do you think she would have been at repelling the rival houses if she did not already sit nicely protected in Camelyn? Even with holding the city AND having travelling to move her forces about, she barely held them off. If rand had not *given* her Camelyn, she would never have stood a chance.

 

I agree that had Rand and his vassals not stood as regent for Elayne, then Camelyn, if not Andor, would have been in chaos. But one cannot give someone something that already belongs to them. From the moment Moragse disappeared, Elayne should have been sitting in Camelyn. Gaberil's ascension as King of Andor was false, illegal, and over quickly enough to not really count. So, we move from Morgase cannot be found to the throne goes to the Daughter-Heir. Rand acted as a regent should. He protectedf the throne from rival claimants, he extended trade for the country, he started a school to help advance the country. All of these would be duties rightfully assigned to any regent while awaiting the ascension of the rightful heir. The throne was never the Dragon's and he could not give her what was already her's. The "Succession War" was really a rebellion against the rightful heir, but by Andor's unique rules of needing the approval of a percentage of houses to confirm no one could actually claim to have the throne until 10 houses announced for them. No one (including Rand) had that support until after the entire Elayne/Succession War plot script was done with. So again how could he "give" her something he never had? Sure he could claim that he had it, but if he had done so openly, then the noble houses would have marched on him (Dylin told him so flat out) and the Aiel, and while he would have won, what kind of throne would Elayne have ascended to?

 

No hereditary ruler is "given" the throne by their regent. They assume the throne, as it has been held in abeyance while lacking the proper ruler.

[Suttree]

If Perrin keeps Two Rivers and becomes a royal in the house of Saldaea or if Rand's children inherits the throne to Illian and Lordship over Two Rivers. Either way Elayne effectively put into a power a line that could very well in future ignore the regent of Andor without any consequence or legal retribution. A King can't command another King as the old adage goes.

 

Wasn't this dealt with in that scene?

ToM A Teaching Chamber

"This is easy to fix," Alliandre said. "If Faile were to ascend, one of her and Perrin's children could continue as Lord of the Two Rivers. Another could take the throne of Saldea. Put it in writing, and you will be protected."

 

There is nothing in the book which implies that her move was not a mistake. It certainly defies all logic and no sane diplomat would ever advise what she did, the gray ajah would probably slam their head into a wall, for it is simply opening the door to civil war and rebellion for generations to come in the context of a feudal world.

 

Except that is exactly what happened in the scene. Morgase was advising her, in addition both Faile and Allliandre had input. All within the WoT are considered politically savvy to a point. It is discussed by all the characters to be an excellent solution to the problem. I highly doubt this scene was written to show Elayne(one of the heroes in a fantasy story) to be incompetent and making political mistakes. Everything in the chapter points to the contrary.

[randsc]

Faile has vigorously "reminded Perrin of several reasons why he married her" thoughout the series. With no result, at least not one that wears nappies. While I understand that arranging dynastic marriages of unborn children was common enough in our real world, devising a plan that depends on Perrin and Faile having multiple children, so as to avoid concentrating too much power in one set of hands, might be excessively optimistic.

[ranjitb]

From the moment Moragse disappeared, Elayne should have been sitting in Camelyn.

 

Actually this isn't strictly true.

While she certainly had the *best claim*, Elayne no longer had the right as she believes. Why ?

 

Because from what we have seen, the Andoran crown is passed down to the monarch SUPPORTED BY 07/13 great houses, not by simple premogeniture.

Now, nominally whenever a monarch dies, the other houses do not start up a new electoral process (by tradition) but they COULD BY LAW.

 

Whether she did it because of compulsion or not, Morgase had exiled and alienated the very houses who had put her on the throne in the first place - as I read it, Elayne thus had NO claim since House Trakand NO LONGER held the throne.

 

The fact that had Rand claimed the crown for himself, there would have been rebellion is besides the point. And really do we know this ?

Other than a tantrum throwing Elayne and her besty Egwene who really would have rebelled ? Sure there is no precedent for Kings in Andor, but The Dragon Cometh and breaketh all bonds etc. etc. We have already seen other people and nations break precedent under his Taver'n effect.

Dyelin didn't want the throne but would she really have called her banners to fight against the liberator of Camelyn whose Aiel occupied the capital ? If he ever bothered to reveal he was Tigraine's son, Mantear and some of the other minor houses would have rallied to him (instead of Elayne as they eventually did). Arymilla was ready to support whoever was NOT-Trakand.

 

The rebellion happened because of what Morgase did and NOT because of what Rand did.

[David Selig]

One thing which has been overlooked in the discussions so far that giving an oath or even your word is a really big deal in Randland. It's not like in the medieval feudal societies, where treaties and fealty oaths were broken all the time. So if Perrin agreed to send troops in times of need in support of the Andoran Queen, as it's implied in the text, he'd do it, even if by that point he has the power to ignore it.

 

The idea that one of Rand's children will inherit Illian and Two Rivers, but not the Andoran crown, is not likely to happen IMO. First of all, if Rand dies in the Last Battle, his children, who'd be either yet to be born or a few months old at most, have very little chance to get the throne of Illian. He's not even married yet to any of his women, for one thing, and if he does get married in the Aiel style, it's debatable whether this would be legally recognized in the Westlands. And with Rand not around, I don't see the Illianers accepting a newly born child for King or Queen, especially at such turbulent times, when they need strong leadership. And if Rand survives, he can hold the crown for another 600 years if he feels like it.

 

Because from what we have seen, the Andoran crown is passed down to the monarch SUPPORTED BY 07/13 great houses, not by simple premogeniture.

10/19 actually.

 

The fact that had Rand claimed the crown for himself, there would have been rebellion is besides the point. And really do we know this ?

Other than a tantrum throwing Elayne and her besty Egwene who really would have rebelled ? Sure there is no precedent for Kings in Andor, but The Dragon Cometh and breaketh all bonds etc. etc. We have already seen other people and nations break precedent under his Taver'n effect.

Dyelin didn't want the throne but would she really have called her banners to fight against the liberator of Camelyn whose Aiel occupied the capital ?

Dyelin and few others of the strongest nobles told Rand this:

 

LoC, Ch.16

 

“I refuse still,” Dyelin answered in a strong voice, then turned to Rand. “I will wait and consider, my Lord Dragon. When I see Elayne alive and crowned, and you leave Andor, I will send my retainers to follow you whether anyone else in Andor does the same. But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I’ve heard they did in Cairhien and Tear”—she scowled at the Maidens and Red Shields, and the gai’shain too, as if she saw them looting and burning—“or you loose here those . . . men you gather with your amnesty, then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same.”

 

“And I will ride beside you,” Luan said firmly.

 

“And I,” Ellorien said, echoed by Abelle.

[Suttree]

One thing which has been overlooked in the discussions so far that giving an oath or even your word is a really big deal in Randland. It's not like in the medieval feudal societies, where treaties and fealty oaths were broken all the time. So if Perrin agreed to send troops in times of need in support of the Andoran Queen, as it's implied in the text, he'd do it, even if by that point he has the power to ignore it.

 

Very good point and here is what is stated in the chapter.

 

ToM A Teaching Chamber

Perrin, as your ally and subject lord, will agree to marshal troops in your defense. He will also call upon his sworn monarchs to your allegiance."

 

Call it an alliance as relates to his sworn monarchs if you will but Perrin will not break an oath. Perrin's troops and Ghealdan soldiers ride when Andor calls.

[Fel]

I agree that had Rand and his vassals not stood as regent for Elayne, then Camelyn, if not Andor, would have been in chaos. But one cannot give someone something that already belongs to them. From the moment Moragse disappeared, Elayne should have been sitting in Camelyn. Gaberil's ascension as King of Andor was false, illegal, and over quickly enough to not really count. So, we move from Morgase cannot be found to the throne goes to the Daughter-Heir. Rand acted as a regent should. He protectedf the throne from rival claimants, he extended trade for the country, he started a school to help advance the country. All of these would be duties rightfully assigned to any regent while awaiting the ascension of the rightful heir. The throne was never the Dragon's and he could not give her what was already her's. The "Succession War" was really a rebellion against the rightful heir, but by Andor's unique rules of needing the approval of a percentage of houses to confirm no one could actually claim to have the throne until 10 houses announced for them. No one (including Rand) had that support until after the entire Elayne/Succession War plot script was done with. So again how could he "give" her something he never had? Sure he could claim that he had it, but if he had done so openly, then the noble houses would have marched on him (Dylin told him so flat out) and the Aiel, and while he would have won, what kind of throne would Elayne have ascended to?

 

No hereditary ruler is "given" the throne by their regent. They assume the throne, as it has been held in abeyance while lacking the proper ruler.

My point was that, without Rand, Elayne would not have gotten the throne. Her long delay in returning would most likely have resulted in the other houses picking someone else (after what Morgase did) and she would have been bowing to them.

 

So, the throne was NOT hers to begin with (she did not/would not get enough houses), so he could not be regent. Instead, he mandated that she would be the queen until she returned and gave her all the advantages to let her win the succession war.

 

Call it what you will, but its not fair to say she pulled herself up by her botostraps.

[Mr Ares]

If Perrin keeps Two Rivers and becomes a royal in the house of Saldaea or if Rand's children inherits the throne to Illian and Lordship over Two Rivers. Either way Elayne effectively put into a power a line that could very well in future ignore the regent of Andor without any consequence or legal retribution.

The Queen had no power in the TR, her claim was on paper only. If Perrin proves a loyal vassal, there is no problem. If he proves disloyal and does whatever he fancies she has lost nothing - a nobleman she can't control ruling a region she couldn't control anyway. There is nothing implying this was a mistake. Future generations won't be a problem, as all you need do is specify that Stewardship of the TR and rule of Saldaea or rule of Illian and lordship of the TR won't be inherited by the same person. Elayne is no stranger to mistakes and stupid moves, but I'm hard pushed to think of any she made in ToM. Possibly a first for her.

 

1 - What would have happened if rand killed Rahvin and left? Would Elayne be queen now?

Quite possibly. Had Rand left immediately, there would have been a power vacuum. Someone would have tried to take it, that would have led to either an Elayne loyalist as regent (Dyelin) or a civil war, which would likely still be ongoing. Further, when she left for ED the situation in Andor was stable. If it wasn't, she would be more likely to take the throne before going to ED. So remove Rand and precious little changes. As it is, he left a fair while before she arrived anyway, so he still didn't give it to her, because he didn't have it in any appreciable sense.

[David Selig]

BTW, Elayne would've returned to Caemlyn way earlier if Rand had left immediately after he killed Rahvin. In the prologue of LoC she wanted to leave for Caemlyn, The Salidar Aes Sedai didn't let her go since they feared that if Rand had the Daughter-Heir, he'd have control over the whole of Andor and become too powerful.

 

Whether she'd have become a Queen in such a case is unclear, but she had a pretty good chance IMO. The other Houses were split, she had Dyelin and a few other strong ones (Mantear, etc) backing her, and what remained of the Queen's Guard after Gaebril's Darkfriends left were also mostly loyal to her as a Daughther-Heir.

 

But I agree that Elayne should've been more grateful to Rand for killing Rahvin, keeping order in Caemlyn and helping her claim by keeping the Palace and the city for her to take over when she came back.

[Mr Ares]

I agree that she should have been more grateful (gratitude is never her strong point though), but Rand did put his foot in it a little bit with his giving her Andor line.

[SuperFade]

Quite possibly. Had Rand left immediately, there would have been a power vacuum. Someone would have tried to take it, that would have led to either an Elayne loyalist as regent (Dyelin) or a civil war, which would likely still be ongoing. Further, when she left for ED the situation in Andor was stable. If it wasn't, she would be more likely to take the throne before going to ED. So remove Rand and precious little changes. As it is, he left a fair while before she arrived anyway, so he still didn't give it to her, because he didn't have it in any appreciable sense.

 

I disagree. The only reason Dyelin came back to Caemlyn anyway was because Rand invited her there. IIRC she wasn't even in Andor at all until Rand contacted her. It seems pretty clear that Dyelin is the only major Elayne loyalist (at least, that the reader can see), so without her in Caemlyn it's a sure bet that someone else would seize power. The thing about power vacuums is that there's always someone wanting to step in and take the reins. If Rand had disappeared immediately, someone like Arymilla would have taken the throne and likely caused a civil war anyway. That's precisely why Rand stayed, to keep the bootlickers and toadies from taking control and causing chaos.

[capuga]

Quite possibly. Had Rand left immediately, there would have been a power vacuum. Someone would have tried to take it, that would have led to either an Elayne loyalist as regent (Dyelin) or a civil war, which would likely still be ongoing. Further, when she left for ED the situation in Andor was stable. If it wasn't, she would be more likely to take the throne before going to ED. So remove Rand and precious little changes. As it is, he left a fair while before she arrived anyway, so he still didn't give it to her, because he didn't have it in any appreciable sense.

 

I disagree. The only reason Dyelin came back to Caemlyn anyway was because Rand invited her there. IIRC she wasn't even in Andor at all until Rand contacted her. It seems pretty clear that Dyelin is the only major Elayne loyalist (at least, that the reader can see), so without her in Caemlyn it's a sure bet that someone else would seize power. The thing about power vacuums is that there's always someone wanting to step in and take the reins. If Rand had disappeared immediately, someone like Arymilla would have taken the throne and likely caused a civil war anyway. That's precisely why Rand stayed, to keep the bootlickers and toadies from taking control and causing chaos.

 

Dyelin was staying away from Rhavin and his atrocities and Caemlyn stabilized once Rand seized control. She certainly seems the type that would have shown up had Rand left a power vacuum and power struggle behind.

[SuperFade]

Dyelin was staying away from Rhavin and his atrocities and Caemlyn stabilized once Rand seized control. She certainly seems the type that would have shown up had Rand left a power vacuum and power struggle behind.

 

And how long would it have taken her to return? Dyelin cannot Travel, and she would have to march with an army large enough to quash whatever potential troubles lay in Caemlyn. Gaebril's toadies could easily seize power in the meantime. The main things keeping order in Caemlyn were the Dragon Reborn and the Aiel. In the event that both leave the city...well, we'll never know, but my bet is anarchy as Arymilla and co. seize power. But there's no way of knowing in the end. This entire discussion is based on what-ifs, and neither side has decisive evidence for or against. In my mind, the possibility that Arymilla would seize power after Rand leaves is far greater than the possibility of Dyelin (And it is only Dyelin who supports Elayne, remember) waltzing in and becoming regent whilst our dear Daughter Heir spends who knows how long chasing after a forgotten ter'angreal.

[GregDietzFla]

1. Rand conquered Andor in all but name. He said he did not come as a conqueror, but that was more to keep the aiel from taking their fifth. As for him giving her the throne, he did. For those of you who say it wasn't his to give, you can site legal presedence all day, but if history has taught us anything, might makes right. Hypothetically, if Rand named himself king, and Dyelin rallied every house in Andor, How long would it have taken for the Aiel to utterly destroy them?? A week at most? And thats if Rand doesn't take part himself. So in essence Andor was Rand's but he didn't want it. However he did show that it was his with his ability to establish the Black Tower, which since he didnt hold the throne he had no "legal" right to annex this land, yet who has called him out on it? Elayne?? Hardly, She rides through every once in a while and goes where Taim says she can. She tells Taim that he is still on Andoran land, and i can only imagine that Taim is laughing on the inside when she says this. A lot of emphasis is put on what is legal in this thread. A law is just words on a piece of paper. With no one to enforce the law or no one who is capable of enforcing the law, it becomes meaningless.

2. Back to the Perrin argument, once again in law he has to answer when Elayne calls, just like Alliandre has to answer when Perrin calls, yet that does not guarentee that they will answer. And call it rebellion if you want, without the power of arms to prosecute Perrin for the crime, what else can she do? She threatens to hang Perrin, and he basically laughs at her (not really, but thats how i read it). Everything in a fuedal system depends on the situation. Just because you call, doesnt necesarilly mean they always come running, even when they should.

 

Not that any of this matters, because when ELAYNE calls PERRIN will come, just as ALLIANDRE will come when Perrin calls. The risk for Elayne is 2 or 3 generations down the road, when the leaders don't get along as well as they do now. As for the immediate future, When Elayne calls, Perrin will come running like the good wolf he is :).

[Mr Ares]

1. Rand conquered Andor in all but name. He said he did not come as a conqueror, but that was more to keep the aiel from taking their fifth. As for him giving her the throne, he did.

An argument that completely ignores the simple fact that Rand wasn't there, he had no control over Andor when Elayne came, and she took control from a power vacuum, she wasn't handed it by Rand. Therefore in no sense is it accurate to say he gave it to her. In neither legal nor practical terms did he have it. He had abandoned Caemlyn.

For those of you who say it wasn't his to give, you can site legal presedence all day, but if history has taught us anything, might makes right. Hypothetically, if Rand named himself king, and Dyelin rallied every house in Andor, How long would it have taken for the Aiel to utterly destroy them??

Months of hard fighting, which would be an utterly pyrrhic victory as Rand would have to destroy a powerful nation, thus weakening the Light for TG. Practically, he can't do that even if he wants to. If he smashes the Light, he loses. Rand's actual strength is limited by such considerations.

However he did show that it was his with his ability to establish the Black Tower, which since he didnt hold the throne he had no "legal" right to annex this land, yet who has called him out on it?

He didn't annex the land, it remains Andoran. He just put a bunch of people on an unoccupied farm. True, she might not be in any position to enforce her will over Taim, but that has nothing to do with Rand, and everything to do with Taim's power.

[GregDietzFla]

1. Rand conquered Andor in all but name. He said he did not come as a conqueror, but that was more to keep the aiel from taking their fifth. As for him giving her the throne, he did.

An argument that completely ignores the simple fact that Rand wasn't there, he had no control over Andor when Elayne came, and she took control from a power vacuum, she wasn't handed it by Rand. Therefore in no sense is it accurate to say he gave it to her. In neither legal nor practical terms did he have it. He had abandoned Caemlyn.

For those of you who say it wasn't his to give, you can site legal presedence all day, but if history has taught us anything, might makes right. Hypothetically, if Rand named himself king, and Dyelin rallied every house in Andor, How long would it have taken for the Aiel to utterly destroy them??

Months of hard fighting, which would be an utterly pyrrhic victory as Rand would have to destroy a powerful nation, thus weakening the Light for TG. Practically, he can't do that even if he wants to. If he smashes the Light, he loses. Rand's actual strength is limited by such considerations.

However he did show that it was his with his ability to establish the Black Tower, which since he didnt hold the throne he had no "legal" right to annex this land, yet who has called him out on it?

He didn't annex the land, it remains Andoran. He just put a bunch of people on an unoccupied farm. True, she might not be in any position to enforce her will over Taim, but that has nothing to do with Rand, and everything to do with Taim's power.

 

1. Rand never 'abandoned' Caemlyn. Bashere and Rhuarc are still there (with their respective armies) when Elayne begins her fight for the throne. Ya Rand didn't sit there the entire time, but in no way did he abandon it.

2.So you are saying that it would take months for the Aiel to destroy whatever Andoran army came? That is laughable. Not to mention that should Rand have wanted the throne of Andor, he most likely would have found support from about half the houses (Armymilla and her lot), maybe enough to gain the throne.

3. While 'technically' the BT is still in Andor, that is mostly because it is surrounded by Andor, and read back to my, laws mean nothing without ability to enforce, so in reality the BT is the BT, not Andor. And for all that anyone (except Logain) knows, Taim serves Rand so yes it has something to do with Rand.

[Muad Cheade]

1. Rand never 'abandoned' Caemlyn. Bashere and Rhuarc are still there (with their respective armies) when Elayne begins her fight for the throne. Ya Rand didn't sit there the entire time, but in no way did he abandon it.

They were in Andor, but not in Caemlyn. They later left. Rand abandoned it.

 

2.So you are saying that it would take months for the Aiel to destroy whatever Andoran army came? That is laughable. Not to mention that should Rand have wanted the throne of Andor, he most likely would have found support from about half the houses (Armymilla and her lot), maybe enough to gain the throne.

The Aiel would not be able to sunjugate Andor easily. I believe the total number men Andor could muster significantly outnumbered the Aiel. Yeah, they might support Rand but don't think for one minute they wouldn't still scheme. Look at what happened in Tear and Cairhien. Rand's not the most beloved of conquerors.

 

3. While 'technically' the BT is still in Andor, that is mostly because it is surrounded by Andor, and read back to my, laws mean nothing without ability to enforce, so in reality the BT is the BT, not Andor. And for all that anyone (except Logain) knows, Taim serves Rand so yes it has something to do with Rand.

The BT is still on Andoran land. Okay...Darlin "serves" Rand as well, yet he is still very much independent.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Rand conquered Andor. Killed it's leader. Enforced his demands on the nation by occupying the capital and posting his army to duty there. He then proceeds to set down his throne in the hall, and calls forth royal decisions decreeing the creation of the Black Tower on Andoran land and the creation of an academy paid for by the royal coffers. Rand then proceeds to leave the capital in trust of his lieutenants under orders that he means the throne to go to Elayne. Elayne arrives and is handed Caemlyn by Rand's forces so she can accept the throne from the Dragon and ascend before other claimants risk angering the Dragon by supplanting his chosen candidate. Elayne wins the war due to holding the strongly fortified city of Caemlyn provided to her by courtesy of Al'Thor.

 

Yeah. Pretty much seems that Rand got his wish and put loyal ally into power. It's a smart decision handing the throne to the future mother of your children, it ensures that the regent of Andor is a loyal to your cause and that your children will inherit a Kingdom.

[GregDietzFla]

1. Rand never 'abandoned' Caemlyn. Bashere and Rhuarc are still there (with their respective armies) when Elayne begins her fight for the throne. Ya Rand didn't sit there the entire time, but in no way did he abandon it.

They were in Andor, but not in Caemlyn. They later left. Rand abandoned it.

 

2.So you are saying that it would take months for the Aiel to destroy whatever Andoran army came? That is laughable. Not to mention that should Rand have wanted the throne of Andor, he most likely would have found support from about half the houses (Armymilla and her lot), maybe enough to gain the throne.

The Aiel would not be able to sunjugate Andor easily. I believe the total number men Andor could muster significantly outnumbered the Aiel. Yeah, they might support Rand but don't think for one minute they wouldn't still scheme. Look at what happened in Tear and Cairhien. Rand's not the most beloved of conquerors.

 

3. While 'technically' the BT is still in Andor, that is mostly because it is surrounded by Andor, and read back to my, laws mean nothing without ability to enforce, so in reality the BT is the BT, not Andor. And for all that anyone (except Logain) knows, Taim serves Rand so yes it has something to do with Rand.

The BT is still on Andoran land. Okay...Darlin "serves" Rand as well, yet he is still very much independent.

 

1. They left when Elayne assumed control, because Rand meant the throne for her, and she was there to take it, and because she asked them to and they acquiesed. Also they stayed and watched the battle, Rhuarc confused as to why Elayne won't use his spears and his comment on who cares where the warriors come from, you use what you can... So while not actively inside the walls of Caemlyn, still there to ensure Rand's command is followed through on, not leaving until summoned by the Dragon i believe.

 

2. Yes they are outnumbered, however most andoran soldiers would have been used to plowing a field, whereas the aiel are consistenly considered the deadliest fighting force on the continent. I still don't know where you are getting the idea that the Andoran's were a match for the aiel? They defeated the combined force of the westlands with 4 clans pretty soundly and easily IIRC, yet you don't think that 1 clan could take 1/2 of Andor's army? Also Rhuarc is portrayed as equal (or almost) to a great captain.

 

2b.) Yes they would scheme, as did Tear and Cairhien. However i dont see what that has to do with anything, scheme all you want, what good did it do Tear or Cairhien? It gave Rand a headache a few times. Other than that he seems to have little trouble with them. Yes some rebelled, as would some of the Andoran houses, but what came of those rebellions? And it is rare the conqueror that is loved. However, one who is feared is obeyed just as readily, if not more. Scheme all you want, it will do them no good. The throne was Elayne's the moment Rand killed Ravhin, whether she likes it or not.

 

3. No. The Black Tower is on Black Tower land, it just happens to be located in the middle of Andor. What would make you consider them still part of Andor? For all of Elayne's talk that they are still subject to Andoran laws, she herself knows that they are not. They don't pay taxes. She exerts 0 control over anything that takes place there. They are NOT subject to the throne of Andor.

And by the way, Darlin is far from independent. Even though he is now king of Tear, he is still steward of the Lord Dragon, as is Dobraine. He goes where Rand says and does what Rand says.

 

 

Rand conquered Andor. Killed it's leader. Enforced his demands on the nation by occupying the capital and posting his army to duty there. He then proceeds to set down his throne in the hall, and calls forth royal decisions decreeing the creation of the Black Tower on Andoran land and the creation of an academy paid for by the royal coffers. Rand then proceeds to leave the capital in trust of his lieutenants under orders that he means the throne to go to Elayne. Elayne arrives and is handed Caemlyn by Rand's forces so she can accept the throne from the Dragon and ascend before other claimants risk angering the Dragon by supplanting his chosen candidate. Elayne wins the war due to holding the strongly fortified city of Caemlyn provided to her by courtesy of Al'Thor.

 

Yeah. Pretty much seems that Rand got his wish and put loyal ally into power. It's a smart decision handing the throne to the future mother of your children, it ensures that the regent of Andor is a loyal to your cause and that your children will inherit a Kingdom.

 

I agree. very well put. Nice catch on the use of Royal coffers for the academy, forgot about that. Im kind of surprised that this point is even being argued. I though it was pretty obvious that he conquered it when the aiel wanted their fifth. Aiel only take the fifth in places that they conquer. Elayne is lucky Rand didn't give it to them. The only reason that Elayne sits on the throne is because she is Rand's girlfriend...

[Mr Ares]

1. Rand conquered Andor in all but name. He said he did not come as a conqueror, but that was more to keep the aiel from taking their fifth. As for him giving her the throne, he did.

An argument that completely ignores the simple fact that Rand wasn't there, he had no control over Andor when Elayne came, and she took control from a power vacuum, she wasn't handed it by Rand. Therefore in no sense is it accurate to say he gave it to her. In neither legal nor practical terms did he have it. He had abandoned Caemlyn.

For those of you who say it wasn't his to give, you can site legal presedence all day, but if history has taught us anything, might makes right. Hypothetically, if Rand named himself king, and Dyelin rallied every house in Andor, How long would it have taken for the Aiel to utterly destroy them??

Months of hard fighting, which would be an utterly pyrrhic victory as Rand would have to destroy a powerful nation, thus weakening the Light for TG. Practically, he can't do that even if he wants to. If he smashes the Light, he loses. Rand's actual strength is limited by such considerations.

However he did show that it was his with his ability to establish the Black Tower, which since he didnt hold the throne he had no "legal" right to annex this land, yet who has called him out on it?

He didn't annex the land, it remains Andoran. He just put a bunch of people on an unoccupied farm. True, she might not be in any position to enforce her will over Taim, but that has nothing to do with Rand, and everything to do with Taim's power.

 

1. Rand never 'abandoned' Caemlyn. Bashere and Rhuarc are still there (with their respective armies) when Elayne begins her fight for the throne. Ya Rand didn't sit there the entire time, but in no way did he abandon it.

2.So you are saying that it would take months for the Aiel to destroy whatever Andoran army came? That is laughable. Not to mention that should Rand have wanted the throne of Andor, he most likely would have found support from about half the houses (Armymilla and her lot), maybe enough to gain the throne.

3. While 'technically' the BT is still in Andor, that is mostly because it is surrounded by Andor, and read back to my, laws mean nothing without ability to enforce, so in reality the BT is the BT, not Andor. And for all that anyone (except Logain) knows, Taim serves Rand so yes it has something to do with Rand.

Andor has no ability to enforce its laws on the BT solely due to Taim, nothing to do with Rand. I don't think the Aiel are magic, capable of tracking down and destroying all resistance in weeks. If a big army took the field, they might well be able to rout it. But those soldiers who survive can still cause problems. And Elayne took power from a power vacuum. Caemlyn was not held by Rand or his lieutenants. Even if it was, the fact that he didn't hold more than the capital surely means he didn't conquer the country? When Elayne arrived in Caemlyn, the regent there was Dyelin, ruling in Elayne's name. Not Rand, nor one of his lieutenants, nor anyone ruling in Rand's name. So Rand didn't hold Caemlyn, Dyelin did in Elayne's name. Rand didn't hold the rest of Andor, various nobles did, with a power vacuum as there was no overall control. So how can Rand be considered to have given Elayne the throne? Or the city? Or anything?

 

By the way, to whom it may concern, Regent: person appointed to administer state during minority, absence or incapacity of monarch. Use of it to mean ruler is archaic. Elayne is not the regent of Andor, she is the Queen of Andor. Rand was regent after killing Rahvin and before he left the country. Dyelin was regent before Elayne's return. Neither was the ruler, they were acting in that capacity during the ruler's absence. To put it another way, you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Rand made it quite clear who he wanted to ascend on the throne. He then handed this candidate the city of Caemlyn thus as good as ensuring their victory due to having a heavily fortified city and the capital at their disposal. Rand merely handed the throne to the person he saw most likely to support him in the future, in this case the mother of his children.

 

Whether he legally has the power to do this is being pedantic. Might makes right. Obviously he ruled the place considering he was able to allocate and spend money from the royal coffers, which shows the treasury considered him the legal head of State. Not to mention him planting his own throne in the royal palace and parceling out Andoran land to his underlings.

 

Seeing that Rand is an Emperor and in his position too important to solely rule an unimportant nation such as Andor he then decreed it's successor, his choice landing on Elayne. Who was then handed the city by his armies who occupied it prior to this to prevent any other faction from taking it over.