How To Fix Egwene

[b3arz3rg3r]

How to fix Egweve ... hmmm. Some people have said embarrassment, but as my man androl said, embarrassment is a small price to pay. Some said an epiphiny, like Mr. Al'thor, but while that was awesome when he did it, if she does it then you know shes just copying his answers. A few have said learning from her past mistakes, but she doesnt make mistakes, other people do, like Elaida. A couple said death, now that, that might work.

 

I think time will fix Egwene. She'll get her comeuppance when the Asha'man assert their rights. There are still more Aes Sedai, but their structures are rigid and their thinking as an organization is outdated the Asha'man will soon catch up. A large part of the political clout will vanish should the BT remain separate from the WT after TG, because the Asha'man have no reason to be submissive to the Aes Sedai. And the nations will quickly figure that out and play them off against each other. Egwene is quite smart I'm sure she'll realize that things can't continue as they have the first time Logain laughs in her face rejecting whatever demands she has made.

Besides there are bound to be plenty more bonds between Aes Sedai and Asha'man just because of similar life expectancy and outlook and that alone will ultimately make each side subject to the authority of the other. Egwene will live long enough to have to accept Logain or whoever will fill that role as her equal.

[meeker]

 

 

Save the world? If they had accompanied LTT Saidar would have been tainted as well.

 

 

Just because we know after the fact what would have happened does not excuse them. If the females ahd refused their help because they were afraid saidar would get tainted that would be one thing. However, they refused to help for the sake of being petty. Their own plan had failed as the access keys were in shadow territory at the time. Lews' plan was the only thing on the table and they had zero reason to even consider that the taint might happen. The females happened to dodge a bullet but it was pure luck founded on terrible decision making.

[Suttree]

 

 

Save the world? If they had accompanied LTT Saidar would have been tainted as well.

 

 

Just because we know after the fact what would have happened does not excuse them. If the females ahd refused their help because they were afraid saidar would get tainted that would be one thing. However, they refused to help for the sake of being petty. Their own plan had failed as the access keys were in shadow territory at the time. Lews' plan was the only thing on the table and they had zero reason to even consider that the taint might happen. The females happened to dodge a bullet but it was pure luck founded on terrible decision making.

 

How so? They sided against the plan citing too many risks and that it was too reckless. Yes they didn't know exactly what would happen but they ended up being right.

[randsc]

What would have happened if Latra's opposition had prevented LTT from even attemmpting his plan? That, after all, was her prefered outcome. So what would have happened if Latra had prevailed to that point?

 

THAT'S the basis on which you judge the wisdom of her actions.

 

Anything else is luck, not wisdom.

[MasterAblar]

 

 

Save the world? If they had accompanied LTT Saidar would have been tainted as well.

 

 

Just because we know after the fact what would have happened does not excuse them. If the females ahd refused their help because they were afraid saidar would get tainted that would be one thing. However, they refused to help for the sake of being petty. Their own plan had failed as the access keys were in shadow territory at the time. Lews' plan was the only thing on the table and they had zero reason to even consider that the taint might happen. The females happened to dodge a bullet but it was pure luck founded on terrible decision making.

 

How so? They sided against the plan citing too many risks and that it was too reckless. Yes they didn't know exactly what would happen but they ended up being right.

 

I believe the risk was that instead of sealing the bore, they might tear it open completely. This is why women were deemed necessary for the strike to be successful. It would take great dexterity. In the end they still managed it fine without the women.

[Suttree]

I believe the risk was that instead of sealing the bore, they might tear it open completely. This is why women were deemed necessary for the strike to be successful. It would take great dexterity. In the end they still managed it fine without the women.

 

There was never one specific risk cited and RJ has said if the females were involved Saidar would have been tainted as well. The plan was flawed no matter how you look at it.

 

What would have happened if Latra's opposition had prevented LTT from even attemmpting his plan? That, after all, was her prefered outcome. So what would have happened if Latra had prevailed to that point?

 

THAT'S the basis on which you judge the wisdom of her actions.

 

Anything else is luck, not wisdom.

 

It is not luck to refuse a course of action that is too risky. If there are a number of possible risks, just because you didn't cite the exact one doesn't mean you are wrong to oppose it.

 

As to your question any number of things MIGHT have happened. We have zero way of knowing. The bore had been open for some time along with the shadow being on the offensive. Don't know why LTT had to strike at that exact time. They might have found a way to get the access keys. They might have come up with another plan. The DO might have escaped. LTT might have done the same thing months later. It's all speculation...what we do know are the facts of what happened. The Dragon saved the world from the DO and the Female Aes Sedai saved the world from The Breaking. Without their opposition the world would have been doomed either way.

[randsc]

I suggest you read SaSG. We do, in fact, know what would have happened if LTT hadn't sealed the Bore when he did.

 

We don't know if the DO would have immediately been freed, though we know that his freedom would be inevitable. But it doesn't matter. The Light-siders were about to utterly lose the conventional war.

[Suttree]

I suggest you read SaSG. We do, in fact, know what would have happened if LTT hadn't sealed the Bore when he did.

 

We don't know if the DO would have immediately been freed, though we know that his freedom would be inevitable. But it doesn't matter. The Light-siders were about to utterly lose the conventional war.

 

I have read it a number of times and what you say above changes nothing in regards to the facts of the story. What it says is IF one of the forsaken offensives were to break through the war could be over in as little as MONTHS(multiple used in SaSG). So yes nothing there to indicate LTT had to strike at the exact time he did. In a worst case scenario they still would have had close to half a year at least to work on other options.

 

None of that changes the fact that the female Aes Sedai made the right decision and saved the world in the process. I'm not taking anything away from what LTT did to seal the bore, at the same time I don't understand the need to take away from what Shadar Nor and the rest of the female AS did to save the world from the Breaking?

[Hopefire]

I have read it a number of times and what you say above changes nothing in regards to the facts of the story. What it says is IF one of the forsaken offensives were to break through the war could be over in as little as MONTHS(multiple used in SaSG). So yes nothing there to indicate LTT had to strike at the exact time he did. In a worst case scenario they still would have had close to half a year at least to work on other options.

 

None of that changes the fact that the female Aes Sedai made the right decision and saved the world in the process. I'm not taking anything away from what LTT did to seal the bore, at the same time I don't understand the need to take away from what Shadar Nor and the rest of the female AS did to save the world from the Breaking?

The most specific quote given in the Strike at Shayol Ghul is: "The final defeat was at hand; the will of the people to resist was fading, and should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months."

 

Now, there's a few possibilities here. The first is exactly how much time a matter of months might be. It might be two or three. It might be six to twelve. We don't know. We also don't know if that meant that total defeat would occur in months, or if effective resistance would end in months; even if the Shadow essentially conquered the world, there is some chance that a band of rebels, striking from a hidden base, might have been able to implement the Dragon's plan. There wouldn't be much of a world left to save that that point presumably, but the possibility of a strike at that time might have still existed.

 

We can be relatively certain that victory through conventional military means was no longer considered a possibility; the Shadow continued to grow in strength, while the Light was weakening day by day. The manuscript indicates that there were three main offensives on the part of the Forsaken, and if any of them had broken through, the Light would have been defeated in short order. From that perspective, while estimates were that the Light could continue for a few months, there is at least some possibility that the breakthrough could have happened in days. Finally, we know from the footnotes of the manuscript that Latra Posae's plan to smuggle the access ter'angreal out of the territory held by the Shadow had failed.

 

Hindsight is 20/20. The Pattern appears to have arranged the best possible outcome. If Lews Therin had waited, resistance would have eventually crumbled, at best and more territory would have fallen to the Shadow before the strike occurred. There would have been even less of the world left going into the Breaking, and that would further retard development after the Breaking was over. If Lews Therin hadn't struck at all, the Shadow would have won. If Lews Therin had used women in the sealing, women would have gone mad as well. If women were used instead of men for the sealing, the Breaking might have been less intense, but the gender dynamics of the world would potentially have been severely unhealthy (alternatively, the process that Lews Therin came up with to seal the Bore might not have worked as well, or at all, with women). If Lews Therin had struck earlier, less of the world would be controlled by the Shadow, and more might have been saved during the Breaking; alternatively, more male Aes Sedai would have been alive, and might have damaged the world further.

 

At the end of the day, Lews Therin made the right choice for the right reasons, Latra Posae made the right choice for the wrong reasons.

 

Sneaky, sneaky Pattern arranging its own survival...

[Hopefire]

I have read it a number of times and what you say above changes nothing in regards to the facts of the story. What it says is IF one of the forsaken offensives were to break through the war could be over in as little as MONTHS(multiple used in SaSG). So yes nothing there to indicate LTT had to strike at the exact time he did. In a worst case scenario they still would have had close to half a year at least to work on other options.

 

None of that changes the fact that the female Aes Sedai made the right decision and saved the world in the process. I'm not taking anything away from what LTT did to seal the bore, at the same time I don't understand the need to take away from what Shadar Nor and the rest of the female AS did to save the world from the Breaking?

The most specific quote given in the Strike at Shayol Ghul is: "The final defeat was at hand; the will of the people to resist was fading, and should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months."

 

Now, there's a few possibilities here. The first is exactly how much time a matter of months might be. It might be two or three. It might be six to twelve. We don't know. We also don't know if that meant that total defeat would occur in months, or if effective resistance would end in months; even if the Shadow essentially conquered the world, there is some chance that a band of rebels, striking from a hidden base, might have been able to implement the Dragon's plan. There wouldn't be much of a world left to save that that point presumably, but the possibility of a strike at that time might have still existed.

 

We can be relatively certain that victory through conventional military means was no longer considered a possibility; the Shadow continued to grow in strength, while the Light was weakening day by day. The manuscript indicates that there were three main offensives on the part of the Forsaken, and if any of them had broken through, the Light would have been defeated in short order. From that perspective, while estimates were that the Light could continue for a few months, there is at least some possibility that the breakthrough could have happened in days. Finally, we know from the footnotes of the manuscript that Latra Posae's plan to smuggle the access ter'angreal out of the territory held by the Shadow had failed.

 

Hindsight is 20/20. The Pattern appears to have arranged the best possible outcome. If Lews Therin had waited, resistance would have eventually crumbled, at best and more territory would have fallen to the Shadow before the strike occurred. There would have been even less of the world left going into the Breaking, and that would further retard development after the Breaking was over. If Lews Therin hadn't struck at all, the Shadow would have won. If Lews Therin had used women in the sealing, women would have gone mad as well. If women were used instead of men for the sealing, the Breaking might have been less intense, but the gender dynamics of the world would potentially have been severely unhealthy (alternatively, the process that Lews Therin came up with to seal the Bore might not have worked as well, or at all, with women). If Lews Therin had struck earlier, less of the world would be controlled by the Shadow, and more might have been saved during the Breaking; alternatively, more male Aes Sedai would have been alive, and might have damaged the world further.

 

At the end of the day, Lews Therin made the right choice for the right reasons, Latra Posae made the right choice for the wrong reasons - at that point, given the available information, Lews Therin's plan should have been considered the best option available. For what it's worth, it also demonstrates a lack of political reciprocity on her part; Lews Therin appears to have worked with the faction that wanted to make sa'angreal when his own plan was blocked, but Latra Posae didn't work with Lews Therin when her plan failed.

 

Sneaky, sneaky Pattern arranging its own survival...

[MasterAblar]

I suggest you read SaSG. We do, in fact, know what would have happened if LTT hadn't sealed the Bore when he did.

 

We don't know if the DO would have immediately been freed, though we know that his freedom would be inevitable. But it doesn't matter. The Light-siders were about to utterly lose the conventional war.

 

I have read it a number of times and what you say above changes nothing in regards to the facts of the story. What it says is IF one of the forsaken offensives were to break through the war could be over in as little as MONTHS(multiple used in SaSG). So yes nothing there to indicate LTT had to strike at the exact time he did. In a worst case scenario they still would have had close to half a year at least to work on other options.

 

None of that changes the fact that the female Aes Sedai made the right decision and saved the world in the process. I'm not taking anything away from what LTT did to seal the bore, at the same time I don't understand the need to take away from what Shadar Nor and the rest of the female AS did to save the world from the Breaking?

This plan was considered risky for a number of reasons. Even today it is known that the Dark One has a certain degree of effect on the world close around Shayol Ghul, and it was probable that any attempt to channel there would be instantly detected and the raiding party destroyed. Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none. Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it open, freeing the Dark One completely.

 

I think that makes it pretty clear what the risks were. And neither of these happened.

 

The final defeat was at hand; the will of the people to resist was fading, and should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months. With Latra Posae's opposition continuing in the face of these events (4), and the female Aes Sedai holding to their pledge and thus making use of a circle impossible (the lines of division had hardened to a point where many female Aes Sedai refused to speak to male Aes Sedai, and the reverse as well), Lews Therin resolved to carry out his plan without the approval of, or even approaching, the Hall. Plainly it was going to be impossible to hold the huge sa'angreal long enough for the access ter'angreal to be smuggled out. In Lews Therin's view, there was no longer any choice.

 

There were only 2 plans (and both quite risky) to begin with, so I find it doubtful that they could conjure one up in the time remaining. So LPD's plan is screwed and your commander (LTT) tells you that the shadow is about to break through. You only have one viable plan, one that is risky true but that is not insane either. One of the three major offensives breaking through seems to be a given at this point, and seeing as their last attacks were barely held off, their back seems to be against the wall. Not to mention 2 of the offensives were against the CK, and letting them fall into the enemies hands is out of the question. When you have no other option, and no time to come up with another one, you go with what you have. In my opinion LPD and the aes sedai who supported her made the wrong decision....and saved the world in the process. But that, as RJ said himself, was a "lucky thing"

[Elan Tedronai]

You know something? I don't understand how a smart guy like LTT in a sea of other smart people couldn't have come with a better plan to seal the DO's prison. Hindsight is a wonderful thing i suppose. But it could have been worse. If the seals were not placed correctly, the strain would have ripped open the DO prison completely and in that aspect, the men's mission is to be commended. Considering the fact that dextrity is not a male strength in the power

[MasterAblar]

You know something? I don't understand how a smart guy like LTT in a sea of other smart people couldn't have come with a better plan to seal the DO's prison. Hindsight is a wonderful thing i suppose. But it could have been worse. If the seals were not placed correctly, the strain would have ripped open the DO prison completely and in that aspect, the men's mission is to be commended. Considering the fact that dextrity is not a male strength in the power

 

True, but then the men channelers (and LTT in particular) are the biggest victims of the breaking. They achieved something pretty damn amazing sealing the DO away. Its pretty sad when you think about how great LTT was and how sullied his name was by the tainting of saidin. Stories got so twisted that they made him out to be the ultimate bad guy when its the complete opposite.

 

As for not being able to come up with a better plan, well it seems the channelers from the third age are coming up with all sort of things that were considered impossible in the AOL so I guess this will just be another one.

[Suttree]

This plan was considered risky for a number of reasons. Even today it is known that the Dark One has a certain degree of effect on the world close around Shayol Ghul, and it was probable that any attempt to channel there would be instantly detected and the raiding party destroyed. Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none. Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it

 

I think that makes it pretty clear what the risks were. And neither of these happened.

 

It says "a number of reasons". He then goes on to list two off hand in the story, don't think it is a stretch to assume there were others. Else he would have said the plan was risky for "two" reasons.

 

 

There were only 2 plans (and both quite risky) to begin with, so I find it doubtful that they could conjure one up in the time remaining. So LPD's plan is screwed and your commander (LTT) tells you that the shadow is about to break through. You only have one viable plan, one that is risky true but that is not insane either. One of the three major offensives breaking through seems to be a given at this point, and seeing as their last attacks were barely held off, their back seems to be against the wall. Not to mention 2 of the offensives were against the CK, and letting them fall into the enemies hands is out of the question. When you have no other option, and no time to come up with another one, you go with what you have. In my opinion LPD and the aes sedai who supported her made the wrong decision....and saved the world in the process. But that, as RJ said himself, was a "lucky thing"

 

I am in no way opposed to LTT taking the actions that he did. I just don't see how LPD and the AS refusing to go along with a risky flawed plan and then turning out to be right can be so vilified.

 

Also why would it matter who controls the lands that hold the CK? They are useless without the keys yes? That is the whole reason LPD's plan wasn't feasible at that moment. One thing I don't understand is why they couldn't have just travelled to the place where keys were hidden and used them there. There is no reason to have to smuggle them anywhere.

[Zentari]

 

 

Also why would it matter who controls the lands that hold the CK? They are useless without the keys yes? That is the whole reason LPD's plan wasn't feasible at that moment. One thing I don't understand is why they couldn't have just travelled to the place where keys were hidden and used them there. There is no reason to have to smuggle them anywhere.

Dreamspikes or some kind of detection weave.It wouldn't be far-fetched to say that they had ways to track travel since they had ways of stopping it.

[Hopefire]

 

 

Also why would it matter who controls the lands that hold the CK? They are useless without the keys yes? That is the whole reason LPD's plan wasn't feasible at that moment. One thing I don't understand is why they couldn't have just travelled to the place where keys were hidden and used them there. There is no reason to have to smuggle them anywhere.

Dreamspikes or some kind of detection weave.It wouldn't be far-fetched to say that they had ways to track travel since they had ways of stopping it.

That'd be my guess. Since Shadowspawn can't Travel, I imagine that the armies of the Shadow made heavy use of Dreamspikes (or built larger scale versions of them as they went) over most of their conquered territory, to nullify the hit-and-run capability of the armies of Light. Shayol Ghul might not have been protected by Dreamspikes, because no one would be dumb enough to attack where the Dark One could strike back directly, and if a Dreamspike was dropped on a raiding party there then they'd be trapped and essentially doomed.

[MasterAblar]

This plan was considered risky for a number of reasons. Even today it is known that the Dark One has a certain degree of effect on the world close around Shayol Ghul, and it was probable that any attempt to channel there would be instantly detected and the raiding party destroyed. Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none. Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it

 

I think that makes it pretty clear what the risks were. And neither of these happened.

 

It says "a number of reasons". He then goes on to list two off hand in the story, don't think it is a stretch to assume there were others. Else he would have said the plan was risky for "two" reasons.

 

 

There were only 2 plans (and both quite risky) to begin with, so I find it doubtful that they could conjure one up in the time remaining. So LPD's plan is screwed and your commander (LTT) tells you that the shadow is about to break through. You only have one viable plan, one that is risky true but that is not insane either. One of the three major offensives breaking through seems to be a given at this point, and seeing as their last attacks were barely held off, their back seems to be against the wall. Not to mention 2 of the offensives were against the CK, and letting them fall into the enemies hands is out of the question. When you have no other option, and no time to come up with another one, you go with what you have. In my opinion LPD and the aes sedai who supported her made the wrong decision....and saved the world in the process. But that, as RJ said himself, was a "lucky thing"

 

I am in no way opposed to LTT taking the actions that he did. I just don't see how LPD and the AS refusing to go along with a risky flawed plan and then turning out to be right can be so vilified.

 

Also why would it matter who controls the lands that hold the CK? They are useless without the keys yes? That is the whole reason LPD's plan wasn't feasible at that moment. One thing I don't understand is why they couldn't have just travelled to the place where keys were hidden and used them there. There is no reason to have to smuggle them anywhere.

 

True, there might have been other risks than those given here, but's made pretty clear that the taint was something no one expected. It was not even considered a risk. They did not know it was possible, so its not like LPD warned LTT that this (the taint) would probably happen if he went ahead with his plan.

And while the plan was risky, it was the only thing they had left. It was obvious it would work better with women involved. There did not seem to be a risk if women were involved as well as men, though it turns out it was a good thing they were not there.

 

In my opinion it seems as though if they did nothing the DO won, whereas if they acted they had a chance, no matter how small, and it would make sense to put all the odds on your side, which is why I think their opposition was misplace at this point. That said LPD did not gain the name "cutter of the shadow" for nothing, so I'm not implying that she should not get a lot of respect for her actions (whatever they were) during the war.

 

As for the CK, well I think its better to have control of the nuclear missiles, even if you don't have the code to use them. You never know when the other side will discover the code, and when they do, if they do, best to have the weapons in your control. In the case of the CK, I think losing them would be very, very bad.

As for why they did not travel to the place where the keys were hidden, well as people have mentioned it might not have been as easy as that. We also don't know how or where the CK had to be used for LPD's plan, and using them right there might be a bad idea since everyone would know immediately where you are. The light were barely able to hold off the shadow's attacks as it is. I think it would have impossible to go secure the place where the keys were hidden, especially since Sammael's army was there.

[randsc]

Latra got the title, "Cutter of Shadow" AFTER the bore was sealed. No one is disputing that she did well in the continuing war after the Bore was sealed, but the bore was sealed in spite of her, not because of her.

 

It is also entirely possible that her plan would have ended the world.

 

I don't see anyone villifying Latra, including me, but the fact is that when the most important decision of the Age needed to be made, she flinched. She's not the hero of the Breaking.

[MasterAblar]

Latra got the title, "Cutter of Shadow" AFTER the bore was sealed. No one is disputing that she did well in the continuing war after the Bore was sealed, but the bore was sealed in spite of her, not because of her.

 

It is also entirely possible that her plan would have ended the world.

 

I don't see anyone villifying Latra, including me, but the fact is that when the most important decision of the Age needed to be made, she flinched. She's not the hero of the Breaking.

 

Ah, I see, I had forgotten that. Still I just meant that just because I think she took the wrong decision, does not mean I think she was not very important to the light's effort, before or after the sealing.

[Suttree]

Latra got the title, "Cutter of Shadow" AFTER the bore was sealed.

 

I don't see anyone villifying Latra, including me, but the fact is that when the most important decision of the Age needed to be made, she flinched. She's not the hero of the Breaking.

 

Maybe villify was the wrong word but the quote below isn't exactly recognizing her efforts.

 

She was hiding in her closet, waiting for the Dark One to come and take her.

 

Also as you say the title came AFTER the bore was sealed(when the Breaking started). If all she was doing up til then was hiding in the closet wouldn't that make her a hero of the Breaking, as that is when she gained her title?

 

As I said before LTT saved the world from the DO, LTP and the female AS from the Breaking. Add on to that the little fact that she was right about the plan being too risky(regardless of not knowing the exact risk). She didn't flinch in the slightest, she held to her convictions to the very end. As a result of her refusing to take part in a flawed plan(even Rand admits that today) there is still a glimmer of hope for the world. If she had supported LTT the story would be long finished.

[MasterAblar]

Latra got the title, "Cutter of Shadow" AFTER the bore was sealed.

 

I don't see anyone villifying Latra, including me, but the fact is that when the most important decision of the Age needed to be made, she flinched. She's not the hero of the Breaking.

 

Maybe villify was the wrong word but the quote below isn't exactly recognizing her efforts.

 

She was hiding in her closet, waiting for the Dark One to come and take her.

 

Also as you say the title came AFTER the bore was sealed(when the Breaking started). If all she was doing up til then was hiding in the closet wouldn't that make her a hero of the Breaking, as that is when she gained her title?

 

As I said before LTT saved the world from the DO, LTP and the female AS from the Breaking. Add on to that the little fact that she was right about the plan being too risky(regardless of not knowing the exact risk). She didn't flinch in the slightest, she held to her convictions to the very end. As a result of her refusing to take part in a flawed plan(even Rand admits that today) there is still a glimmer of hope for the world. If she had supported LTT the story would be long finished.

 

No one's denying that the plan was risky. However they didn't know the plan was flawed. She didn't say the plan could not work, just that the chance that it would were to slim. Which is all fine until that plan is all you have left. The plan was either a succeed of fail plan. Either the bore was sealed and everything worked or else it failed, the bore was not sealed, and the shadow wins. There was not supposed to be a middle ground, but the successful sealing and counterstroke is exactly that. She never said the plan could absolutely not succeed, she said it was risky. At this point it was the only way left. Why not put all the chances on your side? It was either make or break.

 

It's not that she did not know that was a risk, she simply did not consider it a risk. Her argument would be pretty lame if she could give the reasons for which she believed the plan was too risky.

If someone tells you swimming to an island is certain death because the waters are too rough and there are sharks in the water, but you still somehow get there only to be struck by lightning, was that person right? Well you survived the water and sharks (the know risks) only to be struck by lightning (the element no one expected). I doubt the person is going to say "I was right". This might be a terrible comparison but that's how I would see LPD claiming to be right about LTT's plan.

[Suttree]

Latra got the title, "Cutter of Shadow" AFTER the bore was sealed.

 

I don't see anyone villifying Latra, including me, but the fact is that when the most important decision of the Age needed to be made, she flinched. She's not the hero of the Breaking.

 

Maybe villify was the wrong word but the quote below isn't exactly recognizing her efforts.

 

She was hiding in her closet, waiting for the Dark One to come and take her.

 

Also as you say the title came AFTER the bore was sealed(when the Breaking started). If all she was doing up til then was hiding in the closet wouldn't that make her a hero of the Breaking, as that is when she gained her title?

 

As I said before LTT saved the world from the DO, LTP and the female AS from the Breaking. Add on to that the little fact that she was right about the plan being too risky(regardless of not knowing the exact risk). She didn't flinch in the slightest, she held to her convictions to the very end. As a result of her refusing to take part in a flawed plan(even Rand admits that today) there is still a glimmer of hope for the world. If she had supported LTT the story would be long finished.

 

No one's denying that the plan was risky. However they didn't know the plan was flawed. She didn't say the plan could not work, just that the chance that it would were to slim. Which is all fine until that plan is all you have left. The plan was either a succeed of fail plan. Either the bore was sealed and everything worked or else it failed, the bore was not sealed, and the shadow wins. There was not supposed to be a middle ground, but the successful sealing and counterstroke is exactly that. She never said the plan could absolutely not succeed, she said it was risky. At this point it was the only way left. Why not put all the chances on your side? It was either make or break.

 

It's not that she did not know that was a risk, she simply did not consider it a risk. Her argument would be pretty lame if she could give the reasons for which she believed the plan was too risky.

If someone tells you swimming to an island is certain death because the waters are too rough and there are sharks in the water, but you still somehow get there only to be struck by lightning, was that person right? Well you survived the water and sharks (the know risks) only to be struck by lightning (the element no one expected). I doubt the person is going to say "I was right". This might be a terrible comparison but that's how I would see LPD claiming to be right about LTT's plan.

 

Ah but it wasn't succeed or fail on the day of the SaSG. There was time no matter how slim, the forsaken offensives had not broken through yet.

 

As for the rest because the risk that ended up happening is unforeseen doesnt mean it was the wrong course of action to take. It shows how reckless the plan truly was that there ended up being more consequences. It still was the correct course of action based on the results if not for the exact right reason at the time.

[MasterAblar]

Latra got the title, "Cutter of Shadow" AFTER the bore was sealed.

 

I don't see anyone villifying Latra, including me, but the fact is that when the most important decision of the Age needed to be made, she flinched. She's not the hero of the Breaking.

 

Maybe villify was the wrong word but the quote below isn't exactly recognizing her efforts.

 

She was hiding in her closet, waiting for the Dark One to come and take her.

 

Also as you say the title came AFTER the bore was sealed(when the Breaking started). If all she was doing up til then was hiding in the closet wouldn't that make her a hero of the Breaking, as that is when she gained her title?

 

As I said before LTT saved the world from the DO, LTP and the female AS from the Breaking. Add on to that the little fact that she was right about the plan being too risky(regardless of not knowing the exact risk). She didn't flinch in the slightest, she held to her convictions to the very end. As a result of her refusing to take part in a flawed plan(even Rand admits that today) there is still a glimmer of hope for the world. If she had supported LTT the story would be long finished.

 

No one's denying that the plan was risky. However they didn't know the plan was flawed. She didn't say the plan could not work, just that the chance that it would were to slim. Which is all fine until that plan is all you have left. The plan was either a succeed of fail plan. Either the bore was sealed and everything worked or else it failed, the bore was not sealed, and the shadow wins. There was not supposed to be a middle ground, but the successful sealing and counterstroke is exactly that. She never said the plan could absolutely not succeed, she said it was risky. At this point it was the only way left. Why not put all the chances on your side? It was either make or break.

 

It's not that she did not know that was a risk, she simply did not consider it a risk. Her argument would be pretty lame if she could give the reasons for which she believed the plan was too risky.

If someone tells you swimming to an island is certain death because the waters are too rough and there are sharks in the water, but you still somehow get there only to be struck by lightning, was that person right? Well you survived the water and sharks (the know risks) only to be struck by lightning (the element no one expected). I doubt the person is going to say "I was right". This might be a terrible comparison but that's how I would see LPD claiming to be right about LTT's plan.

 

Ah but it wasn't succeed or fail on the day of the SaSG. There was time no matter how slim, the forsaken offensives had not broken through yet.

 

As for the rest because the risk that ended up happening is unforeseen doesnt mean it was the wrong course of action to take. It shows how reckless the plan truly was that there ended up being more consequences. It still was the correct course of action based on the results if not for the exact right reason at the time.

 

I agree with that: the right course of action if not for the right reasons.

 

In the end it comes down to whether you think there was enough time to come up with another plan or to retrieve the access keys. Personally I'll trust LTT when he says that there was no more time, no more choice. It was clear to him that the forsaken offensives would break through before the access keys could be retrieved (the smugglers ended up being caught in the end, but that's irrelevant since it happened after the strike). LTT respected the decision of the hall to go with LPD's plan for a long time so I don't think that he would have gone against their wishes unless he thought it was absolutely necessary. Perhaps LPD thought there was enough time, but I'll go with LTT who is commander of the armies. I think in any case that the text makes it clear that there was no more time, or at least not enough to come up with an alternative. If you see it differently, I can respect that, it's just a difference of interpretation of the text I guess.

[Durinax]

I think that egwene will be fixed by a shot from the pistol or whatever the BA has (cant recall who has it) but it was specifically said that she could kill anyone from a distance even if they where surrounded by AS, and the amyrlin is always surrounded by AS so I think that is how egwene is going to be fixed, then gawyn will die from warder shock (unfortunately)

[Jon Paul]

Ah but it wasn't succeed or fail on the day of the SaSG. There was time no matter how slim, the forsaken offensives had not broken through yet.

 

There was no other choice. It didn't matter that the Forsaken had not launched the final offensive. It was coming and nothing was going to stop it. When the Strike came it was do-or-die. The death may have been prolonged by a few weeks but death is still death.