How To Fix Egwene

[Suttree]

Ah but it wasn't succeed or fail on the day of the SaSG. There was time no matter how slim, the forsaken offensives had not broken through yet.

 

There was no other choice. It didn't matter that the Forsaken had not launched the final offensive. It was coming and nothing was going to stop it. When the Strike came it was do-or-die. The death may have been prolonged by a few weeks but death is still death.

 

Actually it's open to interpretation based on the SaSG manuscript. I do believe Mastar Ablar had a good point in saying LTT probably had a solid idea based on his military experience of the timing but as the SaSG says, IF the forsaken broke through the end would have taken months. Any way you look at it there was more than a few weeks. Based on the results LTP did the right thing by opposing LTT. I don't fall into the camp that says you have to specify a certain risk when you call a plan too dangerous, but either way she turned out to be right. She held to her convictions, it is never a good idea to support a plan just because it is the only one on the table. I actually admire her for not panicking and jumping on board.

[Jong]

I am guessing that Moiraine's return could alter Egwene's outlook on guiding Rand. Guiding Rand was originally Moiraine's project and by custom (which according to egwene's PoV in LoC is as strong as tower law) Egwene cannot meddle in her affairs. If Egwene really is Aes Sedai to the core (and not just another despot with a stole), she will back down on interfacing with Rand once Moiraine reappears. Also Nynaeve, Moiraine, or even Cadsuane may succeed in talking some sense into her yet.

 

I like Egwene as a character, she epitomises Aes Sedai. Which was her goal from day one. I agree with the wiseone's view of her, that she is honourable and worthy as a leader. I think that Egwene's opposition to Rand makes sense and her actions were necessary as a plot device. After all, ToM would have been lacking in suspense without the building tension of Dragon vs. Amyrlin.

[Sleeper]

I am guessing that Moiraine's return could alter Egwene's outlook on guiding Rand. Guiding Rand was originally Moiraine's project and by custom (which according to egwene's PoV in LoC is as strong as tower law) Egwene cannot meddle in her affairs. If Egwene really is Aes Sedai to the core (and not just another despot with a stole), she will back down on interfacing with Rand once Moiraine reappears. Also Nynaeve, Moiraine, or even Cadsuane may succeed in talking some sense into her yet.

 

I like Egwene as a character, she epitomises Aes Sedai. Which was her goal from day one. I agree with the wiseone's view of her, that she is honourable and worthy as a leader. I think that Egwene's opposition to Rand makes sense and her actions were necessary as a plot device. After all, ToM would have been lacking in suspense without the building tension of Dragon vs. Amyrlin.

Knowing Egwene she'll demand Moiraine to call her mother and kiss her ring, and then attempt to use any influence she had with Rand to "guide" him.

 

Hell, she'll probably demand Rand to kiss her ring as well.

 

Also, in reference to your second paragraph, that's one of the reasons I dislike her so much. I despise the ideology of the Aes Sedai right now. They're a bunch of arrogant, aloof, bullying harpies who screw up more things than they solve. I hope Nynaeve and Egwene can help change them, but I'm not sure that will happen.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Ah but it wasn't succeed or fail on the day of the SaSG. There was time no matter how slim, the forsaken offensives had not broken through yet.

 

There was no other choice. It didn't matter that the Forsaken had not launched the final offensive. It was coming and nothing was going to stop it. When the Strike came it was do-or-die. The death may have been prolonged by a few weeks but death is still death.

 

Actually it's open to interpretation based on the SaSG manuscript. I do believe Mastar Ablar had a good point in saying LTT probably had a solid idea based on his military experience of the timing but as the SaSG says, IF the forsaken broke through the end would have taken months. Any way you look at it there was more than a few weeks. Based on the results LTP did the right thing by opposing LTT. I don't fall into the camp that says you have to specify a certain risk when you call a plan too dangerous, but either way she turned out to be right. She held to her convictions, it is never a good idea to support a plan just because it is the only one on the table. I actually admire her for not panicking and jumping on board.

 

The end may have taken months, but how many millions of people would have died a lot quicker? The Shadow breaking through wouldn't have meant the immediate end, but it would no doubt have put millions if not billions of people under the shadows sway in short order. LTT wasn't trying for victory at all costs he was trying for victory with the least amount of cost. So I wouldn't bring up the notion that LTT was too hasty, that he had the leisure of time.

[Hopefire]

Ah but it wasn't succeed or fail on the day of the SaSG. There was time no matter how slim, the forsaken offensives had not broken through yet.

 

There was no other choice. It didn't matter that the Forsaken had not launched the final offensive. It was coming and nothing was going to stop it. When the Strike came it was do-or-die. The death may have been prolonged by a few weeks but death is still death.

 

Actually it's open to interpretation based on the SaSG manuscript. I do believe Mastar Ablar had a good point in saying LTT probably had a solid idea based on his military experience of the timing but as the SaSG says, IF the forsaken broke through the end would have taken months. Any way you look at it there was more than a few weeks. Based on the results LTP did the right thing by opposing LTT. I don't fall into the camp that says you have to specify a certain risk when you call a plan too dangerous, but either way she turned out to be right. She held to her convictions, it is never a good idea to support a plan just because it is the only one on the table. I actually admire her for not panicking and jumping on board.

 

The end may have taken months, but how many millions of people would have died a lot quicker? The Shadow breaking through wouldn't have meant the immediate end, but it would no doubt have put millions if not billions of people under the shadows sway in short order. LTT wasn't trying for victory at all costs he was trying for victory with the least amount of cost. So I wouldn't bring up the notion that LTT was too hasty, that he had the leisure of time.

 

Further, if the Shadow did break through, there was no certainty that Lews Therin would have had the resources he needed to pull off the Strike. He himself might not be alive - after all, three of the Shadow's top generals wanted more than just about anything else in the world to be the one to kill him. He could have woken up one morning to find that Demandred had traveled in, dropped Dreamspikes, and surrounded his armies with some new breed of Shadowspawn that shared the resistance to the One Power that Gholam have. Or that the Shadow might recover the access ter'angreal, and that Ishamael and Lanfear were systematically nuking every army and city in the world. Either option could have happened at any moment.

 

The way I see it, it's probably strategically similar to the situation that Nazi Germany faced in March 1945. Sure, they still had armies. But it was over.

[Mr Ares]

The plan was either a succeed of fail plan. Either the bore was sealed and everything worked or else it failed, the bore was not sealed, and the shadow wins. There was not supposed to be a middle ground, but the successful sealing and counterstroke is exactly that. She never said the plan could absolutely not succeed, she said it was risky. At this point it was the only way left. Why not put all the chances on your side? It was either make or break.

What was the price of failure? Remember, Ishamael's view of Shai'tan's intentions are not universally believed, so what did LTT and LPD think would happen if Shai'tan was released? The Wheel keeps on turning, under the dominion of an evil god? Perhaps. But if the Wheel keeps on turning it will eventually turn to a point where the Light fights back. Generations of oppression, perhaps, but where there's life there's hope. LTT's plan risked total destruction, annihilation. No more life, no more hope. So there was ample time, because once the war is over the fight continues.

[MasterAblar]

Ah but it wasn't succeed or fail on the day of the SaSG. There was time no matter how slim, the forsaken offensives had not broken through yet.

 

There was no other choice. It didn't matter that the Forsaken had not launched the final offensive. It was coming and nothing was going to stop it. When the Strike came it was do-or-die. The death may have been prolonged by a few weeks but death is still death.

 

Actually it's open to interpretation based on the SaSG manuscript. I do believe Mastar Ablar had a good point in saying LTT probably had a solid idea based on his military experience of the timing but as the SaSG says, IF the forsaken broke through the end would have taken months. Any way you look at it there was more than a few weeks. Based on the results LTP did the right thing by opposing LTT. I don't fall into the camp that says you have to specify a certain risk when you call a plan too dangerous, but either way she turned out to be right. She held to her convictions, it is never a good idea to support a plan just because it is the only one on the table. I actually admire her for not panicking and jumping on board.

 

As there were risks to LTT's plan, I think LPD's opposition is perfectly justified. LTT agreed that there were risks. As long as there are risks and LPD believes that there is a better/safer way then I see no problem with her opposition. Sure what happened was something completely unexpected, something that was not even believed to be a risk in the first place, but other things could have happened (not placing the seals correctly seems to have been the main fear). Was she right to oppose? I don't know if she was right but it was a valid choice. I don't think she can be said to have been right about the result. First because the taint was unexpected. You can't be right about something you did not know was possible. And second because the sealing did not fail. It was not perfect but that's irrelevant. LPD feared that it might not work and actually worsen things instead. If the sealing was successful then normally all risks were averted. That said I think the known risks were justification enough for LPD to oppose LTT's plan. Until there was no other choice and no more time, which is really the only thing that I think LPD was wrong about. If there was no more time, then there was nothing to lose. But that depends on whether you think there was more time or not. I personally do not, because I believe LTT was best place to make that judgement. It was still a good thing that women were not there, but there reason for not being there was not the risk of the taint, it was because of other risks.

 

Of course I agree that holding to your convictions is a good thing, and that panicking in that situation would have been really bad.

[MasterAblar]

The plan was either a succeed of fail plan. Either the bore was sealed and everything worked or else it failed, the bore was not sealed, and the shadow wins. There was not supposed to be a middle ground, but the successful sealing and counterstroke is exactly that. She never said the plan could absolutely not succeed, she said it was risky. At this point it was the only way left. Why not put all the chances on your side? It was either make or break.

What was the price of failure? Remember, Ishamael's view of Shai'tan's intentions are not universally believed, so what did LTT and LPD think would happen if Shai'tan was released? The Wheel keeps on turning, under the dominion of an evil god? Perhaps. But if the Wheel keeps on turning it will eventually turn to a point where the Light fights back. Generations of oppression, perhaps, but where there's life there's hope. LTT's plan risked total destruction, annihilation. No more life, no more hope. So there was ample time, because once the war is over the fight continues.

 

I honestly don't think that LPD's opposition was based on the fact that they could allow the DO to have complete control of the world for now because maybe in the next age people would find a way to turn the table. Also why should that be what LPD and LTT thought would happen if the DO was released. I thought, though I may be mistaken, that it was pretty common knowledge that the DO wanted to end time. Lastly, wasn't the risk that most worried about in LTT's plan that it would completely open the thereby releasing the DO? Why would the DO being released this way mean complete destruction and annihilation?

I thought you said that if he was released there would be plenty of time because there would still be resistance?

[Pygmalion79]

I find it hilarious that this discussion has gone on so long without people reaching the obvious conclusion: Neither Lews Therin nor Latra Posae had a good plan. Both had bad plans. Both made bad decisions. And by some miracle (the convenient weaving of the Pattern), their two bad plans worked out for the best in ways that they could not foresee.

 

Everyone who supports LTT ought to be smacked in the face, since Zen Rand admits that he was overly arrogant in thinking he could reseal the bore. That is, he admits that he made the wrong decision, and that he made the wrong decision not because of a risk that he didn't foresee but because of a character flaw that biased his reasoning. So stop defending Lews Therin. He was wrong. He admits he was wrong. He made a bad plan.

 

Everyone who supports Latra Posae ought equally to be smacked in the face. She thought that LTT's plan might destroy the world, but whose plan almost did destroy the world in Veins of Gold? So long as the CK existed, it only took one evil or mad channeller to destroy the world. What if the Forsaken had gotten their hands on one of the access keys? If Ishamael had found it, that would have been the end of the world, period. It was the existence of the CK that made it imperative for LTT to act quickly, since the Light had "months" before final defeat only if the Shadow didn't get their hands on the access keys, and if you wait until after the offensives break through, you have no guarantee that you can win the war even if you *do* seal the bore. The Shadow may have fed all your cities to Trollocs by that point, and you still have all the Forsaken to deal with. Who by the way might discover the access keys at any time. So stop defending Latra Posae. She was wrong. Her plan almost destroyed the world. She made a bad plan.

 

The truth is that the Light had no good plans. They had two bad plans. Arrogance was the chief flaw of the Age of Legends and it shows in the Aes Sedai's two arrogant leaders. It was the Pattern that wove their arrogant and flawed plans into a workable solution. Stop defending Lews Therin and stop defending Latra Posae. You can excuse them by appealing to how difficult their circumstances were, but you can't really defend the plans that they came up with. Robert Jordan has given us every reason to think that the AOL's two leaders blew it.

[Zentari]

]What was the price of failure? Remember, Ishamael's view of Shai'tan's intentions are not universally believed, so what did LTT and LPD think would happen if Shai'tan was released? The Wheel keeps on turning, under the dominion of an evil god? Perhaps. But if the Wheel keeps on turning it will eventually turn to a point where the Light fights back. Generations of oppression, perhaps, but where there's life there's hope. LTT's plan risked total destruction, annihilation. No more life, no more hope. So there was ample time, because once the war is over the fight continues.

How exactly is the destruction that LTT risked different than the one that would happen when (this is something that most people don't get, it WAS a matter of time) the shadow broke the line ? You seem to be saying that if they laid down and died , EVENTUALLY the wheel would give them a second chance.Any evidence to suggest so ?

[Gathering Storman Norman]

How to fix Egween? Why?

 

I live by the motto, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

 

She was "fixed"many books back.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Egween's character! She went from a whiny, snobby, enoying little girl to this amazing leader.

 

She is 19 and was raised Amrylin without even being tested as AS. You think she might face some challenges due to that fact?

 

As the Amrylin of the RAS she was seen as a puppet until she out maneuvered them into giving her war powers. And then eventually earned their respect as Amrylin.

 

As a prisoner in the WT forced to take beatings because she wouldn't admit she wasn't the true Amrylin she still earned the respect of the WT AS and they eventually saw her as Amrylin.

 

She earned the respect of the Wise Ones, even though she is a wetlander that lied to them about being AS.

 

She earned the respect of her RAS general (GB), not an easy task.

 

I have served under many good military leaders and have never had one that was anywhere close to as good as Egween.

 

Some don't like her because she is a woman in power (the most powerful in Rand land), some don't like her because of how she treated Gawyn, some simply don't understand what it takes to be the leader in her situation, and some don't like her because she didn't bow down and kiss Rand's butt when he sauntered into the WT and announced he was going to break the DO out of prison with no real explanation as to why that was a good idea!

 

You people that have a problem with Egween really should sit back and be honest with yourself as to why you don't like her. I'm not talking about why you don't like some of the things she does but why there is this hatred for what is now one of the best characters on the series.

 

I think the readers need to be fixed not the character.

[randsc]

Blah, blah, blah, all covered before, I'm not going through it in detail again.

 

People don't dislike Egwene because she's a woman leader, don't dislike her because she doesn't bow down to Rand, and don't dislike her because they don't understand leadership. Those are red herrings, at best.

 

Some do dislike her, at least in part, because of how she treats Gawyn. Personally, I can't stand Gawyn, so that falls realtively far down my list of reasons for disliking Egwene.

 

I think it is readers who find a character this arrogant, lacking in self-reflection and hypocritical to be some sort of exemplar are the ones who need to be fixed. I think I see some projection at play, honestly.

 

I note from your other posts that you have a bit of a hang-up regarding people who dislike female characters in this series. I would ask you to consider whether something other than sexism may be at work when a reader dislikes Egwene or Elayne while finding Nynaeve, Aviendha, Moiraine, Cadsuane, Bair, Amys, Tuon, Verin, Faile, Berelain and many other women admirable.

[Suttree]

I find it hilarious that this discussion has gone on so long without people reaching the obvious conclusion: Neither Lews Therin nor Latra Posae had a good plan. Both had bad plans. Both made bad decisions. And by some miracle (the convenient weaving of the Pattern), their two bad plans worked out for the best in ways that they could not foresee.

 

I find it hilarious that you seem to have been following this thread for some time and have zero idea what people are debating.

 

I think Egwene isnt liked because of here not listening to Rand.

 

When Rand said that he would break the final seals, Egwene goes into

oposition, and starts to work against him instead of producing a plan,

reminding us all what those flaming female Aes Sedai did the last time

the Dragon rode out to lock the dark one out from the pattern.

 

Save the world? If they had accompanied LTT Saidar would have been tainted as well.

 

Never once has anyone said LTP had the better plan. But she did take the correct course of action by holding to her convictions. She sure as hell didn't make a bad decision, we know the world would be gone already if she had gone along with LTT. It's been stated before, it's possible to take the right course of action if not for the right reasons.

[AshaShan]

Switch the genders of Rand and Egwene, make him a female channeler in a world where saidar was tainted and her the leader of the all-male priesthood, and I guarantee someone who thinks, speaks and acts the way Egwene does has maybe two fans in all fandom. She has been treating Rand like some uppity househusband who doesn't know his place throughout the series. At least in Gawyn shes finally found soneone willing to live down to her expectations.

[Pygmalion79]

I find it hilarious that this discussion has gone on so long without people reaching the obvious conclusion: Neither Lews Therin nor Latra Posae had a good plan. Both had bad plans. Both made bad decisions. And by some miracle (the convenient weaving of the Pattern), their two bad plans worked out for the best in ways that they could not foresee.

 

I find it hilarious that you seem to have been following this thread for some time and have zero idea what people are debating.

Apparently not everyone got the memo: The Pattern has weaved the Egwene thread and the Latra Posae threads into a single cord. All responses to one are responses to the other. They are in fact one and have always been one.

 

Either that or it's the madness talking to me again.

[randsc]

Switch the genders of Rand and Egwene, make him a female channeler in a world where saidar was tainted and her the leader of the all-male priesthood, and I guarantee someone who thinks, speaks and acts the way Egwene does has maybe two fans in all fandom. She has been treating Rand like some uppity househusband who doesn't know his place throughout the series. At least in Gawyn shes finally found soneone willing to live down to her expectations.

 

This is true. Even assuming that Tor would ever have dared publish such a series, which is doubtful. It would be published by some sketchy, marginal publishing house, if at all.

 

But this thread has gotten way off course. There are other threads for pointing out the awfulness of Egwene, or posting ill-considered defenses of her. This thread assumes that she needs to be fixed, as many fans feel she does, and seeks to explore the best, least disruptive way to do that.

[b3arz3rg3r]

As a prisoner in the WT forced to take beatings because she wouldn't admit she wasn't the true Amrylin she still earned the respect of the WT AS and they eventually saw her as Amrylin.

 

About that, I never understood why neither Mesa'ana nor the BA simply killed her. Egwene had already proven herself as quite strong and resourceful leader and as close as she once had been to Rand it should have been the obvious decision. It's a lot better than having her endure daily switchings, which sounds ridiculous considering how she's a key player.

[MasterAblar]

As a prisoner in the WT forced to take beatings because she wouldn't admit she wasn't the true Amrylin she still earned the respect of the WT AS and they eventually saw her as Amrylin.

 

About that, I never understood why neither Mesa'ana nor the BA simply killed her. Egwene had already proven herself as quite strong and resourceful leader and as close as she once had been to Rand it should have been the obvious decision. It's a lot better than having her endure daily switchings, which sounds ridiculous considering how she's a key player.

 

Because they needed the conflict to keep going I think. If the rebels seemed on the verge of collapsing, I suppose they would have freed her.

[b3arz3rg3r]

As a prisoner in the WT forced to take beatings because she wouldn't admit she wasn't the true Amrylin she still earned the respect of the WT AS and they eventually saw her as Amrylin.

 

About that, I never understood why neither Mesa'ana nor the BA simply killed her. Egwene had already proven herself as quite strong and resourceful leader and as close as she once had been to Rand it should have been the obvious decision. It's a lot better than having her endure daily switchings, which sounds ridiculous considering how she's a key player.

 

Because they needed the conflict to keep going I think. If the rebels seemed on the verge of collapsing, I suppose they would have freed her.

 

They had no trouble at all controlling Elaida since the Shadow should have known about the Seanchan raid in advance they could have easily gotten rid of both Amyrlin and that would have lead to even more chaos. Or if not that why not use compulsion on her and make her a vegetable.

[Sleeper]

As a prisoner in the WT forced to take beatings because she wouldn't admit she wasn't the true Amrylin she still earned the respect of the WT AS and they eventually saw her as Amrylin.

 

About that, I never understood why neither Mesa'ana nor the BA simply killed her. Egwene had already proven herself as quite strong and resourceful leader and as close as she once had been to Rand it should have been the obvious decision. It's a lot better than having her endure daily switchings, which sounds ridiculous considering how she's a key player.

 

Because they needed the conflict to keep going I think. If the rebels seemed on the verge of collapsing, I suppose they would have freed her.

Easiest way to sow more discord would have been to kill her. One the rebels heard of it, there probably would have been a significant movement towards attacking Tar Valon in retribution. The Tower would have been truly and completely broken.

 

The Forsaken have made some very dumb decisions over the years.

[randsc]

As a prisoner in the WT forced to take beatings because she wouldn't admit she wasn't the true Amrylin she still earned the respect of the WT AS and they eventually saw her as Amrylin.

 

About that, I never understood why neither Mesa'ana nor the BA simply killed her. Egwene had already proven herself as quite strong and resourceful leader and as close as she once had been to Rand it should have been the obvious decision. It's a lot better than having her endure daily switchings, which sounds ridiculous considering how she's a key player.

 

Because they needed the conflict to keep going I think. If the rebels seemed on the verge of collapsing, I suppose they would have freed her.

Easiest way to sow more discord would have been to kill her. One the rebels heard of it, there probably would have been a significant movement towards attacking Tar Valon in retribution. The Tower would have been truly and completely broken.

 

The Forsaken have made some very dumb decisions over the years.

 

Nah, if they killed Egwene, the rebel Aes Sedai would have crawled back to Elaida on their bellies.

[MasterAblar]

As a prisoner in the WT forced to take beatings because she wouldn't admit she wasn't the true Amrylin she still earned the respect of the WT AS and they eventually saw her as Amrylin.

 

About that, I never understood why neither Mesa'ana nor the BA simply killed her. Egwene had already proven herself as quite strong and resourceful leader and as close as she once had been to Rand it should have been the obvious decision. It's a lot better than having her endure daily switchings, which sounds ridiculous considering how she's a key player.

 

Because they needed the conflict to keep going I think. If the rebels seemed on the verge of collapsing, I suppose they would have freed her.

Easiest way to sow more discord would have been to kill her. One the rebels heard of it, there probably would have been a significant movement towards attacking Tar Valon in retribution. The Tower would have been truly and completely broken.

 

The Forsaken have made some very dumb decisions over the years.

 

I think you are giving the rebel aes sedai too much credit. They don't seem particularly loyal. Egwene was put in place as amrylin in the first place because the sitters thought they could easily control her. They turned out to be wrong and don't seem very happy about that. Their desire for retribution would be pretty small in my opinion especially among those who got their toes stepped on. However Egwene was definitely the one who opposed Elaida the most. Siuan said that the rebel aes sedai were about to slip away from her and arangar wanted Egwene back because it was easier to keep the rebellion going with her.

[Sleeper]

As a prisoner in the WT forced to take beatings because she wouldn't admit she wasn't the true Amrylin she still earned the respect of the WT AS and they eventually saw her as Amrylin.

 

About that, I never understood why neither Mesa'ana nor the BA simply killed her. Egwene had already proven herself as quite strong and resourceful leader and as close as she once had been to Rand it should have been the obvious decision. It's a lot better than having her endure daily switchings, which sounds ridiculous considering how she's a key player.

 

Because they needed the conflict to keep going I think. If the rebels seemed on the verge of collapsing, I suppose they would have freed her.

Easiest way to sow more discord would have been to kill her. One the rebels heard of it, there probably would have been a significant movement towards attacking Tar Valon in retribution. The Tower would have been truly and completely broken.

 

The Forsaken have made some very dumb decisions over the years.

 

I think you are giving the rebel aes sedai to much credit. They don't seem particularly loyal. Egwene was put in place as amrylin in the first place because the sitters thought they could easily control her. They turned out to be wrong and don't seem very happy about that. Their desire for retribution would be pretty small in my opinion especially among those who got their toes stepped on. However Egwene was definitely the one who opposed Elaida the most. Siuan said that the rebel aes sedai were about to slip away from her and arangar wanted Egwene back because it was easier to keep the rebellion going with her.

Yup, that's definitely a possibility.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

[quote name='randsc' timestamp='1297792243' post='1752904'

 

I think it is readers who find a character this arrogant, lacking in self-reflection and hypocritical to be some sort of exemplar are the ones who need to be fixed. I think I see some projection at play, honestly.

 

I note from your other posts that you have a bit of a hang-up regarding people who dislike female characters in this series. I would ask you to consider whether something other than sexism may be at work when a reader dislikes Egwene or Elayne while finding Nynaeve, Aviendha, Moiraine, Cadsuane, Bair, Amys, Tuon, Verin, Faile, Berelain and many other women admirable.

 

Frankly, I can understand people not liking Elayne or any character for that matter. But there seems to be much more hatred for Egween and Elayne to a lesser degree. The other female characters either don't have any where near as much power or have had hardly any page time when compared to the two Es.

 

People flat out seem to hate Egween.

 

Self-reflection is for those who can afford it. Egween can't show any signs of doubt or she will get ripped to sheds by her subordinates. And yes the rest of the AS are subordinates to the Amrylin.

 

I see her as confident, or cock sure, of herself and she simply has to be. Besides arrogance is a desired trait in a war time leader. All great war time leaders, throughout the history of time, could have been accused of being arrogant.

 

Gawyn, the hard head, got much better treatment than he deserved. While he ultimately saved her life, he actions ruined her first trap and put her in serious risk of looking week to the "wolves" (the other AS) nipping at her heals. She should have tossed his fanny out of the WT.

 

I went through the normal shifts of my favorite character like a lot of us did. From Rand, to Perrin, to Mat, and if you would have told me 15 years ago that my favorite character would end up being, what was my least favorite character then, I would have told you you're nuts.

 

Again these are just my opinions and there is a saying about opinions.

 

Difference is mine are right ;) just kidding (sort of)!

[Gathering Storman Norman]

[quote name='randsc' timestamp='1297792243' post='1752904'

 

I think it is readers who find a character this arrogant, lacking in self-reflection and hypocritical to be some sort of exemplar are the ones who need to be fixed. I think I see some projection at play, honestly.

 

I note from your other posts that you have a bit of a hang-up regarding people who dislike female characters in this series. I would ask you to consider whether something other than sexism may be at work when a reader dislikes Egwene or Elayne while finding Nynaeve, Aviendha, Moiraine, Cadsuane, Bair, Amys, Tuon, Verin, Faile, Berelain and many other women admirable.

 

Frankly, I can understand people not liking Elayne or any character for that matter. But there seems to be much more hatred for Egween and Elayne to a lesser degree. The other female characters either don't have any where near as much power or have had hardly any page time when compared to the two Es.

 

People flat out seem to hate Egween.

 

Self-reflection is for those who can afford it. Egween can't show any signs of doubt or she will get ripped to sheds by her subordinates. And yes the rest of the AS are subordinates to the Amrylin.

 

I see her as confident, or cock sure, of herself and she simply has to be. Besides arrogance is a desired trait in a war time leader. All great war time leaders, throughout the history of time, could have been accused of being arrogant.

 

Gawyn, the hard head, got much better treatment than he deserved. While he ultimately saved her life, he actions ruined her first trap and put her in serious risk of looking week to the "wolves" (the other AS) nipping at her heals. She should have tossed his fanny out of the WT.

 

I went through the normal shifts of my favorite character like a lot of us did. From Rand, to Perrin, to Mat, and if you would have told me 15 years ago that my favorite character would end up being, what was my least favorite character then, I would have told you you're nuts.

 

Again these are just my opinions and there is a saying about opinions.

 

Difference is mine are right ;) just kidding (sort of)!