How To Fix Egwene

[randsc]

This post assumes a few things:

 

1. That a great many readers dislike Egwene (indisputable);

2. That Egwene is one of the good guys (seems pretty likely);

3. That readers are generally supposed to like, sympathize with and identify with good guys (usually true, even when the good guys are morally ambiguous);

4. That Jordan and Sanderson were trying to write an admirable character in Egwene (not so sure, I think she may have been written like she was intentionally)

 

So how can Sanderson fix Egwene?

 

I could list a thousand ways I would like to see Egwene brought down, but that's not the purpose of this thread.

 

I don't think it is NECESSARY for Egwene to be humbled at Merilor, or forced into a secondary role, or otherwise embarassed in order to redeem her in most readers' minds. It would be nice, to be sure, but it is not necessary to write either a big dramatic reversal for Egwene nor to devote a lot of screen time to it.

 

I think a 3 or 4 sentence Egwene POV, in which she seems to understand the hypocricy of her past actions, repent her arogance, and renounce her overwheening personal ambition, would actually do it for most readers.

 

Something along the lines of:

 

"She's right," Egwene thought with an inward wince. Nyaneve was right. She had been too focussed on the Tower, too sure that she knew the path. She had neglected to consider the experience and wisdom of others. Worse, she had treated people, even her closest friends, badly.

 

"I'm sorry", Egwene said.

 

I really think that would do it. All would be forgiven, and the series would end without having a primary protagonist that many readers wish dead.

 

Thnk it could happen?

[Muad Cheade]

There's already an Egwene thread, but anyways.

 

Why does she need "fixing?" Just because some readers don't like her? I know people who don't like the old Rand and new one? Does he need fixing? Everyone in the WoT is flawed as are the people in our world.

[randsc]

There's already an Egwene thread, but anyways.

 

Several, actually. Each devoted to different aspects of the character, or different questions involving the character. Just like this one.

 

Why does she need "fixing?" Just because some readers don't like her?

 

Essentially. Again, I am assuming for the purposes of this discussion that Jordan/Sanderson WANT Egwene to be seen as an admirable figure. For a great many readers (pretty clearly not just "some") she is not.

 

I know people who don't like the old Rand and new one? Does he need fixing? Everyone in the WoT is flawed as are the people in our world.

 

Exactly where my thought came from. Rand did, in fact, need fixing, in order for readers to see him him as the hero of this epic. Let's be honest, here. The world of the Wheel of Time is pretty black and white, and doesn't lend itself to a character who is remains gray.

 

The other primary characters have shown considerable growth over the course of the series. Why shouldn't Egwene grow?

[herid]

This post assumes a few things:

 

1. That a great many readers dislike Egwene (indisputable);

2. That Egwene is one of the good guys (seems pretty likely);

3. That readers are generally supposed to like, sympathize with and identify with good guys (usually true, even when the good guys are morally ambiguous);

4. That Jordan and Sanderson were trying to write an admirable character in Egwene (not so sure, I think she may have been written like she was intentionally)

 

So how can Sanderson fix Egwene?

 

I could list a thousand ways I would like to see Egwene brought down, but that's not the purpose of this thread.

 

I don't think it is NECESSARY for Egwene to be humbled at Merilor, or forced into a secondary role, or otherwise embarassed in order to redeem her in most readers' minds. It would be nice, to be sure, but it is not necessary to write either a big dramatic reversal for Egwene nor to devote a lot of screen time to it.

 

I think a 3 or 4 sentence Egwene POV, in which she seems to understand the hypocricy of her past actions, repent her arogance, and renounce her overwheening personal ambition, would actually do it for most readers.

 

Something along the lines of:

 

"She's right," Egwene thought with an inward wince. Nyaneve was right. She had been too focussed on the Tower, too sure that she knew the path. She had neglected to consider the experience and wisdom of others. Worse, she had treated people, even her closest friends, badly.

 

"I'm sorry", Egwene said.

 

I really think that would do it. All would be forgiven, and the series would end without having a primary protagonist that many readers wish dead.

 

Thnk it could happen?

Some of Egwene's character deficiencies are no doubt plot driven and intentional (like the irrationality in her opposition to Rand's plans in TofM). But other things like the frequently mentioned hypocrisy are not. That has always bothered me greatly in her character and I would certainly like at least some acknowledgment on her part of those failings. To name just a couple of examples. She critisizes Elaida for reducing Shemerin to an accepted by decree yet she herself did very much the same in raising Elayne and Nynaeve to Aes Sedai by her decree. so it's ok when she does something like this but not ok when Elaida did it? and another one. She criticizes Elaida for wanting to introduce a new oath of obedience to Amyrlin. yet she herself forces several Aes Sedai to swear fealty. highly hypocritical IMO.

 

as to how exactly this should be addressed that should certainly be up to Brandon Sanderson and I would not presume to speculate on it.

[anotherfingolfin]

yes, i do think a internal monologue on the lines of what you suggested should suffice. though imho, it would have to come fairly early, and none of the characters actions thenceforth should embody earlier traits that were percieved as negative. also for me, it is imperative, that in the hypothetical monologue, there is just realisation and acceptance. if it is lined with incredulity at her actually being wrong or, lets say, any misandrous thought (which let's face it, is common in WoT), it will not work for me.

 

as satisfying and deserved a come-down/comeuppance situation would be, it is akin to a villain being defeated, and thus it will not work when the character is supposed to be positive.

[capuga]

@randsc - I think your two sentence solution sounded pretty good. I would be happy with that. I think my biggest problem with Egwene is you don't see any introspection from her even in her POVs. It would be nice to see that she recognizes that she was hypocritical with the fealty oaths, for example, but thinks that it was necessary given her position at the time. Just seeing her acknowledge her faults, even just to herself, and try harder going forward would go a long ways towards making me like her more.

 

Contrast her with some of the other main characters - Rand, Perrin, and Nynaeve in particular, and you will notice that they all have a fair amount of faults. But I find the others less annoying then Egwene because you see them at various points acknowlege their own failings and work to improve themselves. It makes them much more sympathetic to read.

[Skeeve the Great]

I doubt any number of sentences from Egwene will satisfy me. When she actually does something that shows humility, understanding of her utter arrogance, shows true remorse for past actions, then maybe. Maybe.

[Durinax]

she is a doomed character, she started off likeable (ish) then devolved into something worse...something terrible.

 

no few lines will fix it. I think that rand will humble/embarrass her sufficiently that the AS will no longer be completely cowed and will resist her somewhat which is what will make her into a great leader.

 

Good fortune hides genious. Ill fortune shows genius

[White_star]

I doubt any number of sentences from Egwene will satisfy me. When she actually does something that shows humility, understanding of her utter arrogance, shows true remorse for past actions, then maybe. Maybe.

Agreed. She can say "I'm sorry" (just like she can say she 'loves' Rand) til she's blue in the face but until she demonstrates it those are just words in the wind.

[Mats Spare Hat]

How Sanderson can fix Egwene:

 

Step 1: Build Time-Machine

Step 2: Go back in time, fetch one James O. Rigney Jr. off his porch in healthier days.

Step 3: Come back, go home. Stay there.

 

 

That's right, I said it. The dude can't write Egwene worth snot bubbles. Egwene in ToM = Mat a la Hinderstap. WHat in theeeeee fudgicals. She went doooooooownhill, in authorship transition.

 

 

That is all.

[capuga]

How Sanderson can fix Egwene:

 

Step 1: Build Time-Machine

Step 2: Go back in time, fetch one James O. Rigney Jr. off his porch in healthier days.

Step 3: Come back, go home. Stay there.

 

 

That's right, I said it. The dude can't write Egwene worth snot bubbles. Egwene in ToM = Mat a la Hinderstap. WHat in theeeeee fudgicals. She went doooooooownhill, in authorship transition.

 

 

That is all.

 

Is that the author or the plot? Because I thought that Brandon wrote her well in tGS. She was slowly earning my respect through KoD and tGS. Then she lost most of that goodwill in ToM. But since he did a good job writing Egwene in tGS there is no reason to believe that it was his writing that made ToM Egwene less likable. That's just how the plot went.

[AshaShan]

Egwene hasn't changed between TGS and TOM. Its just that the attitude and behaviour that was easily overlooked when it was aimed at such scumbags as Lelaine and Elaida is alot harder for readers to tolerate when its aimed at Rand, Perrin, Nynaeve and Gawyn. Egwene is still Egwene. The increase in hate since TOM is the result of the more neutral fans turning against her IMO.

[Fel]

I think part of rehabilitation will have to be some introspection, but I would hope to also be told about a whole lot of "off screen" stuff in ToM that she was doing that we were not told about. Most of her machinations were not bad, they were just short sighted. but, hopefully, we can get word that some of the other things she had started in ToM that we never heard about have borne some fruit (hopeful thinking) and, as a result, she will turn the White Tower into an actual helpful force in the last battle.

 

Something along the lines of an insight by the Whites after she tasked them with ways to defeat the DO... or results of the hard-core battle training that the Green Ajah has initiated from the weaves that she learned from Moghedien... or a report from the 100 sisters and 10,000 tower guards dispatched to slow the tide of shadowspawn advances in the borderlands... or ANYTHING that shows she was secretly working to actually try to save the world and not just build her own power.

 

Do I think this will happen? No. But, i can hope...

[Barid Bel Medar]

She is the Amyrlin.

 

She isnt supposed to be liked.

 

Most powerful figures are not well liked.

 

I dont have a problem with her if she gets on with her job.

 

She can be the most arrogant prick in the world, which she is, and I dislike her personally.

 

But as long as she realises Rand is right in this (the seals) in the end, I am happy.

[gary0044187]

She is the Amyrlin.

 

She isnt supposed to be liked.

 

Most powerful figures are not well liked.

 

I dont have a problem with her if she gets on with her job.

 

She can be the most arrogant prick in the world, which she is, and I dislike her personally.

 

But as long as she realises Rand is right in this (the seals) in the end, I am happy.

I can't agree with that. I really enjoyed the Egwene character before this last book. Now I think she is just a couple steps from being Elaida (conversely I would think it interesting, in a descent into madness kind of way, to watch her descend fully to what Elaida has become but I doubt that will happen) #2. There was a point made in another thread that brought up what she said to Nyneave and Elayne in LoC, where she didn't require them to call her mother. This need of hers for everyone to fall into line lock step behind her now that she is amyrlin is a perversion of a character I used to think was one of the coolest in the series. I expect her to have a revelation about her attitudes towards her loyal friends. I understand that what she is doing is realistic and I agree that she can fulfill her role in the story without changing back, but as written in the last book, she has lost alot of what made her one of the neatest characters in the story. There was a time when I would have ranked her as my most favorite female character, and Faile as last. Oddly she has fallen to the back of the list and Faile has found her way snugly in the middle of the pack.

[gambril]

She is the Amyrlin.

 

She isnt supposed to be liked.

 

Most powerful figures are not well liked.

 

I dont have a problem with her if she gets on with her job.

 

She can be the most arrogant prick in the world, which she is, and I dislike her personally.

 

But as long as she realises Rand is right in this (the seals) in the end, I am happy.

I can't agree with that. I really enjoyed the Egwene character before this last book. Now I think she is just a couple steps from being Elaida (conversely I would think it interesting, in a descent into madness kind of way, to watch her descend fully to what Elaida has become but I doubt that will happen) #2. There was a point made in another thread that brought up what she said to Nyneave and Elayne in LoC, where she didn't require them to call her mother. This need of hers for everyone to fall into line lock step behind her now that she is amyrlin is a perversion of a character I used to think was one of the coolest in the series. I expect her to have a revelation about her attitudes towards her loyal friends. I understand that what she is doing is realistic and I agree that she can fulfill her role in the story without changing back, but as written in the last book, she has lost alot of what made her one of the neatest characters in the story. There was a time when I would have ranked her as my most favorite female character, and Faile as last. Oddly she has fallen to the back of the list and Faile has found her way snugly in the middle of the pack.

 

 

I agree with this almost completely. Nynaeve would have eventually been my favorite female character (after re-reads), but initially Egwene was my favorite character. She had her flaws back then, but she had an aura about her. And a good example of that is right after being raised she told Elayne and Nynaeve to call her Egwene. Those small kinds of things she did were endearing. But especially in TOM, this thinking and never questioning of herself and expecting everyone scraping her boots because she's an Amyrlin has gotten pretty ridiculous. It wouldn't be ridiculous if the old Egwene were still underneath all of it, but somewhere along the way she completely forgot herself and now we have this borg version of what Egwene's ideal of a perfect Aes Sedai is.....barf.

[samataim]

So how can Sanderson fix Egwene?

 

Jewelry. a necklace, and a matching bracelet to be worn by Tuon to add to her burgeoning collection of Amyrlins that she can parade in front of Rand when he bows to her.

 

seriously though...

 

We've seen every main character grow in this series, except her, I am sure that it is by design. However he does it, it will be more than a sentence, or paragraph, it will have at least its own chapter.

 

It is my opinion that if Rand is the lead actor in the books, Egwene is the lead actress. Rand is saving the world so Egwene can help guide the world into the new age. She will have to stop being Darth Egwene we've seen growing over these past few books and become Egwene Sedai.

 

This is my hope at least, it would be a shame to see the female character that has been there almost as long as Rand, and has dealt with as much as she has to end up being a bitch for eternity.

[dscott8]

Get her laid.

[OptimusPrime]

What if she died? Would that fix her?

[Barid Bel Medar]

What if she died? Would that fix her?

 

Gah, probably not.

 

She would refuse to die. She is the Amyrlin Seat. Nobody can kill her, she said so.

 

Or she would haunt people in TAR.

 

Fixing her sounds really dodge. Like she is a dog needing to be de-sexed. (one can argue this is so )

 

I just get this image of scientists planting a chip in her brain that makes her less bitchy and arrogant.

 

But yeah, to my point earlier. As a character, I dont think she needs to be "fixed" as such. I just think she is still developing.

 

I mean, in the end, she has to see that Rand has to break the seals, right? Because, its prophisied and all that?

 

I look at it like what Rand was going through (most noteably in tGS). She just hasnt opened her eyes fully yet.

[bluecole]

Wow.

 

Granted, I only lurk, but I didn't realize this many people disliked Eggy. I see her character growth as natural. She may be wrong about the seals, but she doesn't know what the 400 year old Grand Male Super Power Aes Sedai does.

 

And people hate her for it? Yes, she's bitchy, but she's in charge a a building full of women who think they know everything. Wouldn't you be?

 

So she requires her friends to toe the line. Have you ever had to be the boss of a friend? And pretty much the whole world is riding on her, so it's a little more important that say, delivering pizzas.

 

Thanks for reading. . . .

 

B.

[Areopagitican]

The less is written about Egwene, the closer we'll get to fixing her. Frankly, I'm definitively over reading about her.

[capuga]

Get her laid.

 

It certainly seemed to help Nynaeve.

[AquilaInfernus]

I thought it was pretty obvious in her explanation to Nyneave as to why she wanted to be called Mother. She's also been in this role for the better half of the series (Salidar onwards) and it's said over and over again that she needs to win authority off women who more naturally look the part and have a tendency to assume the role.

 

Anyone here ever read Machiavelli's The Prince? Leaders are basically made of different stuff, follow different ethical guidelines and must think in terms that often discount the human aspect of things.

 

So I end up defending her, but I've never really had a problem with her (except in treatment of Gawyn, there was no trust). Quite frankly I'm surprised anyone finds a fictional character so intolerable...

[capuga]

I thought it was pretty obvious in her explanation to Nyneave as to why she wanted to be called Mother. She's also been in this role for the better half of the series (Salidar onwards) and it's said over and over again that she needs to win authority off women who more naturally look the part and have a tendency to assume the role.

 

Anyone here ever read Machiavelli's The Prince? Leaders are basically made of different stuff, follow different ethical guidelines and must think in terms that often discount the human aspect of things.

 

So I end up defending her, but I've never really had a problem with her (except in treatment of Gawyn, there was no trust). Quite frankly I'm surprised anyone finds a fictional character so intolerable...

 

I've seen a few people say something like this, and quite frankly I'm surprised that someone would be surprised. You are on a fan website. Obviously people are passionate about this work. Art is supposed to inspire opinions. People are supposed to feel one way or the other about it. So of course a character in a story that people love will have people that love the character or hate the character based on their personal preferences. It would be pretty boring to read a story (or watch a movie, or listen to music, etc) that didn't inspire some kind of feelings in me. I don't care about the characters like I care about the real people in my life but I certainly have an opinion on them.