Yep, I still hate Min

[Shard]

 

The real reason some people don't like Min is the simply fact that she isn't by their standards a "strong woman".

 

 

I think there is something to this. Min is a lousy avatar of 21st Century feminism, therefore for some readers cannot be an admirable character.

 

 

I never said I thought she wasn't a strong woman. That is NOT why I dislike her. I just don't think she is particularly useful. I don't think she helped keep Rand human, like many others do, I don't think her visions are useful, and I don't think that she has much to add to the story to date. And being 11 books into what was supposed to be a 10 book series, I think it is a little late to think that anything that happens this late in the game will get me to change my mind.

 

I see why some people think she was "trying" to help Rand retain is humanity, but I just don't think that she actually did. Can someone give me an example of how her presence did this? Did her presence help at Natrim's Barrow? Did she ever convince him to be less hard in one of his decisions? (I am sincerely asking this last question, I don't recall any instance where her presence convinced him he was doing the wrong thing by burying his emotions).

 

I guess I want an actual example of how people think she helped him retain his humanity. Like I said earlier, I see Tam as the hero in that, not Min.

 

KoD Ch 27 "A plain Wooden Box" pg 592 (Hardback)5th paragraph, the whole paragraph.

[sleepinghour]

Yes, she could, for exactly the reason you name. Rand could give her one; if she was the type of person who wanted to be a queen, he'd give her a throne. Of course, then she wouldn't be Min. As things stood at the time he said that, he still had a vacant throne in Cairhien and a missing king in Arad Doman that he could give her. Further, he's the king of Illian; he could either give her that throne or marry her to make her queen. Alternatively, he could name her his second and heir, and give her a title like Lady of the Morning or some such.

 

Min's qualifications are no worse than those of say, Perrin or Egwene or Nynaeve.

While Rand meant it as a compliment, he wouldn't be doing Min any favors by giving her a throne. She wouldn't last a day in Cairhien without getting her throat slit or food poisoned. She would make a good queen in that she's intelligent, compassionate, and understands common people's problems...but queens also need to be able to play Daes Dae'mar and swim with the sharks if they want to survive. Min will never be ruthless enough for that.

 

Perrin isn't ruthless either, but Faile is willing and able to slit throats when needed (just ask Masema). That and his ta'veren powers will probably keep him alive if he does end up ruling Saldaea. Most of the other major characters have either the OP or ta'veren powers to protect them.

 

The Brown and White sisters have had 3000 years to look at the problems and haven't produced answers. Min appears to be on the right track, noting the flaws in Callandor and bringing up breaking the seals.

 

If Rand dies, I can easily see Min following Fel's path and going to one of Rand's schools to write and to teach philosophy and logic.

As I said before, I do like Min and hope her research will pay off in AMoL. But she's only one person and has to rely on translations which may be inaccurate or have lost important nuances (as far as I know, Min does not speak the Old Tongue). Placing the entire burden on Min isn't fair. Aes Sedai know more about angreal and learn the Old Tongue as part of their education. Cadsuane has already had sisters study Callandor and knew about its flaws. Furthermore, Aes Sedai may have access to texts not commonly available. For example, Verin was one of two Browns to record the Dark Prophecy in TGH; Kiruna being King Paitar's sister may actually have known about the secret Borderlander prophecy. There is much to gain from collaborating and much to lose from not sharing knowledge.

 

I like the idea of Min teaching at one of Rand's schools. There's no reason why she couldn't do that even if Rand survives.

[sleepinghour]

I thought Min went along to see if there are any viewings around "Tuon/Semirhage" that Rand should know about.

 

Also I thought that that's the reason she sticks at his side at all time, to see if she could "view" anything useful for Rand.

In TGS, Min thinks about how she used to see herself as a line of defense for Rand and was finally disabused of this notion when Semirhage used her as a tool to hurt him.

[Muad Cheade]

While other people have been running around putting out fires, Min has been the only major character actively looking for a way to put down the arsonist.

I like this line. Very much.

 

What is the point of threads like this? Not everyone likes the same characters and debate in this manner only reinforces one's position.

[eslechta]

 

The real reason some people don't like Min is the simply fact that she isn't by their standards a "strong woman".

 

 

I think there is something to this. Min is a lousy avatar of 21st Century feminism, therefore for some readers cannot be an admirable character.

 

 

I never said I thought she wasn't a strong woman. That is NOT why I dislike her. I just don't think she is particularly useful. I don't think she helped keep Rand human, like many others do, I don't think her visions are useful, and I don't think that she has much to add to the story to date. And being 11 books into what was supposed to be a 10 book series, I think it is a little late to think that anything that happens this late in the game will get me to change my mind.

 

I see why some people think she was "trying" to help Rand retain is humanity, but I just don't think that she actually did. Can someone give me an example of how her presence did this? Did her presence help at Natrim's Barrow? Did she ever convince him to be less hard in one of his decisions? (I am sincerely asking this last question, I don't recall any instance where her presence convinced him he was doing the wrong thing by burying his emotions).

 

I guess I want an actual example of how people think she helped him retain his humanity. Like I said earlier, I see Tam as the hero in that, not Min.

 

KoD Ch 27 "A plain Wooden Box" pg 592 (Hardback)5th paragraph, the whole paragraph.

 

 

This doesn't actually help me much since I listen to the audiobooks. Can you provide context?

[Albion]

I don't hate Min but at some point I did find myself rolling my eyes when it came to her parts in the books. I think because I'm growing bored of her role with Rand, I wanted to see more of her character outside her relationship with him. He's meant to be in love with two other women but that doesn't seem to be the case any more, it's more easy and convenient to focus on Min because she's there all the time, while Aviendha and Elayne are pushed to the sides. Personally I've always preferred scenes between Rand and Avi and look forward to them but they're so scarce now :(

[Skeeve the Great]

Out of three Rand's lovers, Min is my fav. Then Avi. Elayne - not so much.

 

Min is the only one that holds no allegiance to anyone except Rand. She is the only one that appears to truly love Rand and she's willing to sacrifice her life to no one except Rand.

 

Avi is next on the list and only because she's cool character. And because she was the first lover :)

 

Elayne, on the other hand, can easily betray Rand if the matter become between Andor and Rand, or Tower and Rand, or anything else in that nature.

[Fade]

Min may yet have a point and a reason to exist, like many have said she's kept Rand sane for a long while now and Sanderson did a lot of tying up of apparent loose ends in ToM. The same may happen for her. I still can't stand her though. Put simply, she gets right on my nerves. Let's hope she goes all fantastic in the finale.

[Fade]

But then again at least she isn't Elayne. That girl needs a slap.

 

Having written this has made me realise, however, that maybe all characters aren't meant to be likeable. Even though it's fantasy, it would't be very realistic for everyone to be happy clappy and instantly identifiable to the reader. I suppose it's personality and variety Jordan and subsequently Sanderson were aiming for. Not necessarily likeability. After all, i daresay BS hates writing about some of RJ's characters but enjoys others that RJ ultimately found daunting.

[deathgate]

 

And since when did she become an expert? It annoys me when Rand asks HER to find whats up with Callandor. If I was Rand I would much rather hand it over to Cadsuane once I lifted her exile, say to her "Ok shut up for five minutes and so some experimenting, tell me why its so special" rather than let MIN try and figure it out. I seriously dont see how reading a philosophers books would put Min into the knowledge field so much. Herid Fel spent his entire LIFE as a philosopher. Min reading a few dozen of his books, compared to actual channelers figuring it out... it just feels wrong.

 

 

Cadsuane did know but didn't tell Rand. He does have sworn Brown sisters but doesn't trust them. Min was basically a pupil of Harid Fel and is continuing the research that Rand asked of him. It is hard to know how many books she has read but just the ones listed in the books would likely be more than a dozen (that would be a tedious project to go back and list and count) and that doesn't include any not mentioned. She has nothing else to do in what must be a lot of spare time and has become quite adept at research and is completely loyal to Rand.

 

Plus she's hot, wears tight pants and has a way to settle down his temper and distrust.

[Aiyen kin Leary]

When Rand first wound up in his "threesome" dilemma, my advice to him was marry Elayne, keep Min as a friend, ditch Aviendha (remember, this was back around TFoH, when Avi was being a bitch to him). That's now changed completely. While Aviendha has definitely improved (skilled and honorable Wise One rather than confused and somewhat annoying fish out of water who doesn't know what to do without her spears), Min has IMO taken the cake for best companion for Rand. She is kind, loving, extremely devoted without being (at least to me) cloying, and has been working as hard as she can to unravel the riddles that may determine the survival of the world while being a wonderful companion to the Dragon. She doesn't get the glory most of the other characters have received (Dragon Reborn, Amyrlin Seat, Prince of the Ravens, Wolf King (and maybe Lord of Manetheren, certainly Prince of Saldea), Queen of Andor, Empress of the Seanchan (may she live forever), the list goes on and on), and she doesn't care. She's content to just work in the shadows for the survival of the world and the man she loves. Admittedly, that doesn't always make for the most exciting character, and I quite understand if someone calls her boring or not the strongest role. However, it seems to me very odd to hate her as a person.

 

Also, at the Harvard COOP ToM signing, Brandon was asked if there were any healthy relationships in the WoT. He responded immediately, "Rand and Min."

[OptimusPrime]

 

And since when did she become an expert? It annoys me when Rand asks HER to find whats up with Callandor. If I was Rand I would much rather hand it over to Cadsuane once I lifted her exile, say to her "Ok shut up for five minutes and so some experimenting, tell me why its so special" rather than let MIN try and figure it out. I seriously dont see how reading a philosophers books would put Min into the knowledge field so much. Herid Fel spent his entire LIFE as a philosopher. Min reading a few dozen of his books, compared to actual channelers figuring it out... it just feels wrong.

 

 

Cadsuane did know but didn't tell Rand. He does have sworn Brown sisters but doesn't trust them. Min was basically a pupil of Harid Fel and is continuing the research that Rand asked of him. It is hard to know how many books she has read but just the ones listed in the books would likely be more than a dozen (that would be a tedious project to go back and list and count) and that doesn't include any not mentioned. She has nothing else to do in what must be a lot of spare time and has become quite adept at research and is completely loyal to Rand.

 

Plus she's hot, wears tight pants and has a way to settle down his temper and distrust.

 

So you're telling me one of the reasons Rand picked Min for it is because she wears tight pants?

[randsc]

 

And since when did she become an expert? It annoys me when Rand asks HER to find whats up with Callandor. If I was Rand I would much rather hand it over to Cadsuane once I lifted her exile, say to her "Ok shut up for five minutes and so some experimenting, tell me why its so special" rather than let MIN try and figure it out. I seriously dont see how reading a philosophers books would put Min into the knowledge field so much. Herid Fel spent his entire LIFE as a philosopher. Min reading a few dozen of his books, compared to actual channelers figuring it out... it just feels wrong.

 

 

Cadsuane did know but didn't tell Rand. He does have sworn Brown sisters but doesn't trust them. Min was basically a pupil of Harid Fel and is continuing the research that Rand asked of him. It is hard to know how many books she has read but just the ones listed in the books would likely be more than a dozen (that would be a tedious project to go back and list and count) and that doesn't include any not mentioned. She has nothing else to do in what must be a lot of spare time and has become quite adept at research and is completely loyal to Rand.

 

Plus she's hot, wears tight pants and has a way to settle down his temper and distrust.

 

So you're telling me one of the reasons Rand picked Min for it is because she wears tight pants?

 

Hell, why not? It makes about as much sense as Egwene as Amyrlin.

[OptimusPrime]

 

And since when did she become an expert? It annoys me when Rand asks HER to find whats up with Callandor. If I was Rand I would much rather hand it over to Cadsuane once I lifted her exile, say to her "Ok shut up for five minutes and so some experimenting, tell me why its so special" rather than let MIN try and figure it out. I seriously dont see how reading a philosophers books would put Min into the knowledge field so much. Herid Fel spent his entire LIFE as a philosopher. Min reading a few dozen of his books, compared to actual channelers figuring it out... it just feels wrong.

 

 

Cadsuane did know but didn't tell Rand. He does have sworn Brown sisters but doesn't trust them. Min was basically a pupil of Harid Fel and is continuing the research that Rand asked of him. It is hard to know how many books she has read but just the ones listed in the books would likely be more than a dozen (that would be a tedious project to go back and list and count) and that doesn't include any not mentioned. She has nothing else to do in what must be a lot of spare time and has become quite adept at research and is completely loyal to Rand.

 

Plus she's hot, wears tight pants and has a way to settle down his temper and distrust.

 

So you're telling me one of the reasons Rand picked Min for it is because she wears tight pants?

 

Hell, why not? It makes about as much sense as Egwene as Amyrlin.

 

Cant argue with that one hahaha. I hate the way Egwene tricks Nynaeve into calling her Mother. I hope Nynaeve takes Rands side and starts speaking to Egwene like she used to to Rand.

[Xader]

I hate the way Egwene tricks Nynaeve into calling her Mother.

 

IMHO, she didn't trick her. She convinced her that it was the right thing to do. And I actually agreed with her reasoning.

[sleepinghour]

When Rand first wound up in his "threesome" dilemma, my advice to him was marry Elayne, keep Min as a friend, ditch Aviendha (remember, this was back around TFoH, when Avi was being a bitch to him). That's now changed completely.

Elayne - Aes Sedai, queen of Andor, queen of Cairhien, expecting twins, has a capital city to rebuild after ToM... She never spent much time with Rand to begin with, and isn't likely to in the future either.

 

Aviendha - How will she feel about marrying Rand knowing their offspring might cause the destruction of the Aiel?

 

Min - The only one who isn't a channeler and will age at a normal rate. It will be hard on her when she's 50 and the others still look like 20.

 

All of Rand's relationships have their own set of problems, and that's not even touching the "sister wives" issue.

 

IMHO, she didn't trick her. She convinced her that it was the right thing to do. And I actually agreed with her reasoning.

That scene made me wonder if Brandon forgot about their conversation in LoC or wanted to show how much Egwene has changed since.

 

Nynaeve poked her head in hesitantly, then was pushed into the room by Elayne. Side by side, they made perfect deep curtsies, spreading white, banded skirts wide and murmuring, "Mother."

"Please don't do that," Egwene said. Actually, it was more of a wail. "You're the only two friends I have, and if you start..." Light, she was almost ready to cry!

--Lord of Chaos

[quietstormrico]

And, although it probably rounds very, very strange, but Elayne and Aviendha can be sister-wives, but Min isn't Aiel, or even adopted Aiel. Just seems like good old fashioned cheating to me, and then the annoying rubs off on Rand and makes me find him irritating, too. I know that's a really odd view, but it just doesn't seem right to me! Rand, Aviendha and Elayne are all at least a little bit Aiel and she just seems like some Wetlander with a pretty face.

 

Its not cheating if all the parties involved agree to the arrangement. Being Aiel has nothing to do with it. Just because their culture already has this type of arrangement doesn't mean that others cannot have the same arrangement if everyone agrees to it. Which Elayne and Aviendha both do. Let's not forget that without Min's help Elayne would never have gotten her Rand action and they wouldn't have the three-way Warder bond. Rand asked Min not to let them know he was in Caemlyn but she did anyways (at a personal cost to herself, as she would prefer not to share Rand) because she is a good friend.

Didn't Elayne become "adopted Aiel" through Aviendha? Couldn't Min be adopted the same way?

[quietstormrico]

Min has had a few very important plot events that were overlooked.

 

1. She encouraged Rand's Insanity -- she spoke of two people merging and one dieing. Rand took this as 'Rand' and 'Lews Therin' instead of following the path to come back to normalcy. No one else could have done this.

 

2. She was a tool in Suian's escape from the tower.

 

3. She encouraged Elayne's Stupidity in Camelyn ("I am safe because the babies will be born healthy" stupidity).

 

On second thought, she has been more of a help for the Dark One than anything else, continuing the insanity, breaking the tower further, and encouraging Elayne's stupidity.

I can add one to this. Min's insistence upon always being around Rand caused her to be arouns when Semirhage escaped, which began Rand's descent into real darkness.

[quietstormrico]

I agree with those who believe that Min's purpose has been to keep Rand sane, but I think Jordan's original purpose in introducing Min was to foreshadow events for the readers. I mean, I knew several books ago that Berelain was going to fall for Galad. Some have said that these viewings ruin the plot, but the same could be said of Foretellings, prophecies, and Dreamers. Notice that Jordan has never printed a full copy of the Karatheon Cycle, probably because he was afraid that his more astute readers would figure out the end and lose interest. After all, the few pragments of the Prophecy of the Dragon have been pretty easy to figure out.

[capuga]

And, although it probably rounds very, very strange, but Elayne and Aviendha can be sister-wives, but Min isn't Aiel, or even adopted Aiel. Just seems like good old fashioned cheating to me, and then the annoying rubs off on Rand and makes me find him irritating, too. I know that's a really odd view, but it just doesn't seem right to me! Rand, Aviendha and Elayne are all at least a little bit Aiel and she just seems like some Wetlander with a pretty face.

 

Its not cheating if all the parties involved agree to the arrangement. Being Aiel has nothing to do with it. Just because their culture already has this type of arrangement doesn't mean that others cannot have the same arrangement if everyone agrees to it. Which Elayne and Aviendha both do. Let's not forget that without Min's help Elayne would never have gotten her Rand action and they wouldn't have the three-way Warder bond. Rand asked Min not to let them know he was in Caemlyn but she did anyways (at a personal cost to herself, as she would prefer not to share Rand) because she is a good friend.

Didn't Elayne become "adopted Aiel" through Aviendha? Couldn't Min be adopted the same way?

 

Sure, and I expect this to happen before the three of them marry Rand in the future. Avi and Min just need to spend some time together to build up that bond and friendship. Once Avi returns from Rhuidean a Wise One and ready to claim her piece of Rand, I expect her to also start the process of becoming a sister with Min so they can all marry him.

[capuga]

I agree with those who believe that Min's purpose has been to keep Rand sane, but I think Jordan's original purpose in introducing Min was to foreshadow events for the readers. I mean, I knew several books ago that Berelain was going to fall for Galad. Some have said that these viewings ruin the plot, but the same could be said of Foretellings, prophecies, and Dreamers. Notice that Jordan has never printed a full copy of the Karatheon Cycle, probably because he was afraid that his more astute readers would figure out the end and lose interest. After all, the few pragments of the Prophecy of the Dragon have been pretty easy to figure out.

 

I actually think the viewings, Foretellings, Dreams, etc make it more fun for the readers. It gives us stuff to theorize and talk about in the years between books. And considering the amount of things that we have gotten wrong, the few that we figure out doesn't really spoil the story. Plus, only a small fraction of the people who read the books are actually spending time on these internet forums speculating over every little detail like us crazies.

[Fains nose]

i dont hate Min, i just think she is useless. as other people said shes is just rands sex toy, and basically just a useless housewife who is nothing without Rand. i see a lot of Min supporters saying she is valuable because she kept Rand sane, RJ could of just substituted her for a flute, or some other hobby that Rand could have to calm him down and keep him sane. i used to just dislike min, but ever since she went behind Rands back to Cadsuane, she is dead to me and i just think she is useless as a character and a person

[Hopefire]

IMHO, she didn't trick her. She convinced her that it was the right thing to do. And I actually agreed with her reasoning.

That scene made me wonder if Brandon forgot about their conversation in LoC or wanted to show how much Egwene has changed since.

 

Nynaeve poked her head in hesitantly, then was pushed into the room by Elayne. Side by side, they made perfect deep curtsies, spreading white, banded skirts wide and murmuring, "Mother."

"Please don't do that," Egwene said. Actually, it was more of a wail. "You're the only two friends I have, and if you start..." Light, she was almost ready to cry!

--Lord of Chaos

Off topic, but I'd love to see a callback to that scene. Egwene talks to Nynaeve, and asks her to try to talk Rand out of breaking the seals. Nynaeve and Egwene have a conversation that mirrors the conversation where Egwene convinces Nynaeve to call her Mother, wherein Nynaeve asks Egwene for advice on how to try to convince a person that said person is wrong. Nynaeve talks about how she's paddled said person's bottom at some point in the past, but in the passing years the person in question has changed, gotten proud and acts arrogantly, wants to be bowed to and referred to with appropriate titles, pushes away friends, and doesn't listen to sensible advice easily. Egwene makes some suggestions.

 

And then Nynaeve applies those suggestions in dressing down Egwene.

 

I can hope. After seeing Egwene bully Nynaeve since the Shadow Rising, I'd like Nynaeve to get in a dig or two before the end.

[Frostmuse]

And so yet another thread becomes about Egwene.

[capuga]

i dont hate Min, i just think she is useless. as other people said shes is just rands sex toy, and basically just a useless housewife who is nothing without Rand. i see a lot of Min supporters saying she is valuable because she kept Rand sane, RJ could of just substituted her for a flute, or some other hobby that Rand could have to calm him down and keep him sane. i used to just dislike min, but ever since she went behind Rands back to Cadsuane, she is dead to me and i just think she is useless as a character and a person

 

I hope there aren't any housewives reading this thread to see that you believe them worth as much as a sex toy and as useful as a hobby. That's pretty demeaning.

 

Plus, a hobby doesn't substitute for human companionship. I can tell you that from experience. While my wife was in graduate school, she lived by the school during the week and only came home on weekends. I had plenty of hobbies I enjoyed - reading, watching movies, playing softball, etc. None of them brought me the warmth or comfort of having someone I loved near me to talk with, confide in, and be supported by. This certainly affected my happiness and I don't have near the pressures or responsibilities that Rand has, nor am I partially insane.

 

As to her seeking help from Cadsuane - She was desperate. Rand was becoming harder and harder and less and less human. She was doing what she could but she needed help. So she went to the most capable person she could find that had the same goal as her - to make sure Rand remembered that he was human. And say what you want about Cadsuane (I never really cared for her) but she is certainly capable and not a bad ally to have on your side.

 

As to Min having nothing but Rand - Why is this such a knock on her? She wasn't born as a princess or with the ability to channel and become a Wise One. Does this make her a bad character? We see that she was a hard worker and productive member of society in Baerlon. We see that she uses her visions to help the Light as best as she is able. We see her try her best to help Rand find a way to defeat the Dark One. Would others be more qualified for this? Maybe, but that's not the point (and Teutonic Titwallow has a nice response to this a page or 2 back), the point is she does her best to help the world. Right now, she feels the best thing that she can do is to help Rand out. I always had the impression that being by Rand was not just about her emotions, but also because she felt she could help him and, by extension, the world.

 

Even if it was just about her emotions, what's wrong with being with the person you love? Especially when you know that they will likely be dead soon. How many people on these boards would not want to spend all the time they could with their loved ones when they know that it was a near certainty that they would be dead soon? She doesn't neglect any other responsibilities to spend time with Rand, she doesn't expect him to neglect his responsibilities, so what's the problem with it? She can figure out what else to do with her life once Rand is gone.