What of the other Channeling Men ?

[ranjitb]

I was just wondering this while reading the Black Tower chapters - we are now shown that the Black Tower now contains only a handful of non-Eeevil male channelers, most principally Androl's band of merry misfits and the Two Rivers men (because heaven forbid that anything or anyone coming out of the TR is less than perfect).

 

This just got me to thinking - since Saidin is now clean, and even before that following Rand's declaration that male channelers are not to be hunted - where are the magical men from the two cultures personally associated with Rand - i.e. the Seafolk and Aiel ?

Was it ever mentioned what the seafolk did with their men ?

We know the Aiel channelers used to go off in the blight to die, but surely they don't do that anymore. And given that suddenly you can't turn a corner without bumping into a prospective (female) channeler, surely there must be hundereds, if not thousands of non-Evil, non-tainted Seafolk and Aiel men with the spark loyal only to the Caracarn/Coramoor.

Whats even more odd is that we have had no mention from any of the Wise Ones (who are usually up in everyone's bidness) of how to deal with such an eventuality.

 

On a separate tangent - we "know" that the male channelers in Shara are used as breeding stock and kept as animals and not educated etc. - which begs the question - how are they even identified ? I always supposed that you had to be a certain age before the spark manifested itself (post puberty at the very least) so unless they keep every single man chained up and uneducated how would they even know ?

Or is it a system similar to the damane - where presumably the women led normal lives before being chained and were then rebroken to think of themselves as pets/animals.

 

And we know that the spark doesn't manifest itself at birth - testing is done on both men AND women "of a certain age". If you could know from infancy if a person had potential or not, wouldn't it make more sense to test babies and make the determination ?

[spoke]

There has been mention of the sea folk. This came out during TGS. Rand asked his sea folk ambassador a question for which she has not asked back. His question was what happens to sea folk men. They are given two choices to walk off of their ship with a heavy object tied to their ankle, or be left on a remote island (land of madmen maybe???). He told her that this practice had to stop since the taint was now clean. This has only been left with skepticism, of has it changed since the last time we met.

 

As for the Aiel. This has been pointed out for a very long time. There is no mention of anything changing, since the sending them to the blight.

[bjsm]

Also, not much time has passed since the Cleansing. All men with the spark prior to the Cleansing in Aiel and Seafolk cultures killed themselves/went to the Blight/a remote island. Only a handful of Aiel and Seafolk men will have sparked since the Cleansing, maybe a few dozen scattered across all of Randland. There aren't a whole lot of Aiel or Seafolk, after all, and the spark is rare. Women are being found, but they are mostly women able to learn to channel--which Rand doesn't even know how to detect (although Taim does) and which will not manifest itself alone.

[ranjitb]

bjsm - you could be right, though I disagree with your estimates of the numbers particularly amongst the Aiel.

The channeling genes have theoretically not been culled to such a great extent (since the WO's actually marry and have kids, as opposed to AS).

Further, we know that normal statistics don't apply around the tavern boys - after all not only have more than 10+ channelers come out of Emmonds Field itself, they are also stronger than normal. I would have just assumed that because of their close association, there would be a larger than normal number of Aiel channelers around Rand.

 

Still I found it mention-worthy that even if there were just a few dozen, we have not heard of a single one.

[Taura-Tierno]

But Eamond's Field housing a large amount of strong channelers wasn't because of the ta'veren effect; all of those channelers were there before they became ta'veren. And I believe it was theorized in the books that they found such strong channelers there because the blood of Manetherend was strong there, and that it wasn't mixed or diluted, or whatever. Since extremely few of those potential channelers left the Two Rivers, they would have gotten married and passed the gene down, withing "culling" away the ability. 3/4 sparkers might've died from channeling sickness, but even then, the fourth sparker would probably have married and gotten children, which would also contribute to passing down the channeling gene. With no culling effect, there would be a more "normal" rate of stronger channelers there compared to the rest of the world. We've seen a significant number of strong channelers among the Aiel, who are unculled. Amys, Someryn, Therava ... the same would be true for the Two Rivers.

 

I wouldn't, however, have been surprised if Rand had attracted several Aiel male channelers by now, since he is ta'veren at the moment.

[Mr Ares]

To address your point about Shara, the Ayyad breed amongst themselves, therefore any boy born to the Ayyad is a channeler - or so they believe, anyway. Outside of Ayyad communities, anyone who could channel would only be identified if they actually sparked - then the women become Ayyad, and the men would be killed.

[Guest parksrd]

Well I think We saw some of the Aiel male channelers in ToM. In the Epilogue from the point of view of the merchant Barriga, He is killed by three strange Aiel warriors that I assume are now dreadlords.

[Kaznen]

Well I think We saw some of the Aiel male channelers in ToM. In the Epilogue from the point of view of the merchant Barriga, He is killed by three strange Aiel warriors that I assume are now dreadlords.

I'm thinking more along the lines of Portal Stone Aiel. They came from a mirror world where the Aiel are not all that honorable.

[moratcorlm]

...and have dark eyes.

[Durinax]

I dont think that people can be retrieved from other worlds, I dont think that access to worlds so close to the true world are possible. Especially since the seals would weaken universally across all 'worlds' and anyone sent to another world could cause an anomoly of two identical threads being in two different locations, which I would like to think would cause disastrous consequences. So the pattern would protect against this and make it impossible for two identical threads to exist in the same world by making them inaccessable

[mossman87]

I dont think that people can be retrieved from other worlds, I dont think that access to worlds so close to the true world are possible. Especially since the seals would weaken universally across all 'worlds' and anyone sent to another world could cause an anomoly of two identical threads being in two different locations, which I would like to think would cause disastrous consequences. So the pattern would protect against this and make it impossible for two identical threads to exist in the same world by making them inaccessable

 

Absolutely not. The True Source is based off of quantum mechanics, it's fully possible they could bring in threads from other worlds. It's all just atoms (threads) after all. However I don't believe they're anything but 3,000 years of Male Channeling Aiel and Dark civilizations in the Blight growing together.

[Lacanos]

I dont think that people can be retrieved from other worlds, I dont think that access to worlds so close to the true world are possible. Especially since the seals would weaken universally across all 'worlds' and anyone sent to another world could cause an anomoly of two identical threads being in two different locations, which I would like to think would cause disastrous consequences. So the pattern would protect against this and make it impossible for two identical threads to exist in the same world by making them inaccessable

 

Absolutely not. The True Source is based off of quantum mechanics, it's fully possible they could bring in threads from other worlds. It's all just atoms (threads) after all. However I don't believe they're anything but 3,000 years of Male Channeling Aiel and Dark civilizations in the Blight growing together.

Please don't try to get too "sciencey" about it, particularly when you're confusing the true source and the pattern. It seems very improbably that characters can enter such close alternate worlds in more than just a flash (as seen when Mat/Rand etc first travelled by PS)

[mossman87]

I dont think that people can be retrieved from other worlds, I dont think that access to worlds so close to the true world are possible. Especially since the seals would weaken universally across all 'worlds' and anyone sent to another world could cause an anomoly of two identical threads being in two different locations, which I would like to think would cause disastrous consequences. So the pattern would protect against this and make it impossible for two identical threads to exist in the same world by making them inaccessable

 

Absolutely not. The True Source is based off of quantum mechanics, it's fully possible they could bring in threads from other worlds. It's all just atoms (threads) after all. However I don't believe they're anything but 3,000 years of Male Channeling Aiel and Dark civilizations in the Blight growing together.

Please don't try to get too "sciencey" about it, particularly when you're confusing the true source and the pattern. It seems very improbably that characters can enter such close alternate worlds in more than just a flash (as seen when Mat/Rand etc first travelled by PS)

 

Looking back I think he's just talking about Mirror Worlds where I was thinking he meant Parallel Worlds, which we have many examples of people going back and forth, so my bad there.

 

Don't get too sciencey is funny though.

 

Edit: I'm not confusing them, the True Source is the Pattern as much as the True Power is the DO.

[moratcorlm]

Well, no; the True Source powers the Wheel of Time which creates the Pattern. The True Power more or less is the Dark One without any causative trip around the block.

[Suttree]

I dont think that people can be retrieved from other worlds, I dont think that access to worlds so close to the true world are possible. Especially since the seals would weaken universally across all 'worlds' and anyone sent to another world could cause an anomoly of two identical threads being in two different locations, which I would like to think would cause disastrous consequences. So the pattern would protect against this and make it impossible for two identical threads to exist in the same world by making them inaccessable

 

Absolutely not. The True Source is based off of quantum mechanics, it's fully possible they could bring in threads from other worlds. It's all just atoms (threads) after all. However I don't believe they're anything but 3,000 years of Male Channeling Aiel and Dark civilizations in the Blight growing together.

Please don't try to get too "sciencey" about it, particularly when you're confusing the true source and the pattern. It seems very improbably that characters can enter such close alternate worlds in more than just a flash (as seen when Mat/Rand etc first travelled by PS)

 

Well we know the Seanchan brought back Grolm and the like through the Portal Stones.

[Durinax]

I dont think that people can be retrieved from other worlds, I dont think that access to worlds so close to the true world are possible. Especially since the seals would weaken universally across all 'worlds' and anyone sent to another world could cause an anomoly of two identical threads being in two different locations, which I would like to think would cause disastrous consequences. So the pattern would protect against this and make it impossible for two identical threads to exist in the same world by making them inaccessable

 

Absolutely not. The True Source is based off of quantum mechanics, it's fully possible they could bring in threads from other worlds. It's all just atoms (threads) after all. However I don't believe they're anything but 3,000 years of Male Channeling Aiel and Dark civilizations in the Blight growing together.

Please don't try to get too "sciencey" about it, particularly when you're confusing the true source and the pattern. It seems very improbably that characters can enter such close alternate worlds in more than just a flash (as seen when Mat/Rand etc first travelled by PS)

 

Well we know the Seanchan brought back Grolm and the like through the Portal Stones.

yes but as far as we know those worlds do not have human inhabitants. Thus the anomoly wouldnt exist

[haloun]

when lanfear is discussing the mirror worlds, she states that some of the scholars found worlds where people lived, and they studied those worlds, someone please explain to me how one can study if it is only a small touch like when rand was using the portal stone. you can get there, and the anamoly is equaled out by the pattern.

[andrewatk]

But Eamond's Field housing a large amount of strong channelers wasn't because of the ta'veren effect; all of those channelers were there before they became ta'veren. And I believe it was theorized in the books that they found such strong channelers there because the blood of Manetherend was strong there, and that it wasn't mixed or diluted, or whatever. Since extremely few of those potential channelers left the Two Rivers, they would have gotten married and passed the gene down, withing "culling" away the ability. 3/4 sparkers might've died from channeling sickness, but even then, the fourth sparker would probably have married and gotten children, which would also contribute to passing down the channeling gene. With no culling effect, there would be a more "normal" rate of stronger channelers there compared to the rest of the world. We've seen a significant number of strong channelers among the Aiel, who are unculled. Amys, Someryn, Therava ... the same would be true for the Two Rivers.

 

I wouldn't, however, have been surprised if Rand had attracted several Aiel male channelers by now, since he is ta'veren at the moment.

 

Incidentally, I always found the notion the "undiluted blood of Manerethan" bit was too much like saying that inbred hicks are more likely to produce heroes. What makes Manerethan blood any more special than the blood of any other old countries? "Old Blood" has always been a silly concept with Unfortunate Implications.

 

Anyway, we learned from the Avi scene that channeling male Aiel will/may in the future become known as Dragon Blooded. It is unclear what type of organization they will have, but apparently they will remain distinct from the Black Tower.

[Ananta]

But Eamond's Field housing a large amount of strong channelers wasn't because of the ta'veren effect; all of those channelers were there before they became ta'veren. And I believe it was theorized in the books that they found such strong channelers there because the blood of Manetherend was strong there, and that it wasn't mixed or diluted, or whatever. Since extremely few of those potential channelers left the Two Rivers, they would have gotten married and passed the gene down, withing "culling" away the ability. 3/4 sparkers might've died from channeling sickness, but even then, the fourth sparker would probably have married and gotten children, which would also contribute to passing down the channeling gene. With no culling effect, there would be a more "normal" rate of stronger channelers there compared to the rest of the world. We've seen a significant number of strong channelers among the Aiel, who are unculled. Amys, Someryn, Therava ... the same would be true for the Two Rivers.

 

I wouldn't, however, have been surprised if Rand had attracted several Aiel male channelers by now, since he is ta'veren at the moment.

 

Incidentally, I always found the notion the "undiluted blood of Manerethan" bit was too much like saying that inbred hicks are more likely to produce heroes. What makes Manerethan blood any more special than the blood of any other old countries? "Old Blood" has always been a silly concept with Unfortunate Implications.

 

Anyway, we learned from the Avi scene that channeling male Aiel will/may in the future become known as Dragon Blooded. It is unclear what type of organization they will have, but apparently they will remain distinct from the Black Tower.

 

Manetheren old blood was, as you said "undiluted". Other old bloods were more diluted xD And yes, that's exactly what they were, inbred hicks. Old small town in the middle of nowhere, what else can you expect? D:

[andrewatk]

But Eamond's Field housing a large amount of strong channelers wasn't because of the ta'veren effect; all of those channelers were there before they became ta'veren. And I believe it was theorized in the books that they found such strong channelers there because the blood of Manetherend was strong there, and that it wasn't mixed or diluted, or whatever. Since extremely few of those potential channelers left the Two Rivers, they would have gotten married and passed the gene down, withing "culling" away the ability. 3/4 sparkers might've died from channeling sickness, but even then, the fourth sparker would probably have married and gotten children, which would also contribute to passing down the channeling gene. With no culling effect, there would be a more "normal" rate of stronger channelers there compared to the rest of the world. We've seen a significant number of strong channelers among the Aiel, who are unculled. Amys, Someryn, Therava ... the same would be true for the Two Rivers.

 

I wouldn't, however, have been surprised if Rand had attracted several Aiel male channelers by now, since he is ta'veren at the moment.

 

Incidentally, I always found the notion the "undiluted blood of Manerethan" bit was too much like saying that inbred hicks are more likely to produce heroes. What makes Manerethan blood any more special than the blood of any other old countries? "Old Blood" has always been a silly concept with Unfortunate Implications.

 

Anyway, we learned from the Avi scene that channeling male Aiel will/may in the future become known as Dragon Blooded. It is unclear what type of organization they will have, but apparently they will remain distinct from the Black Tower.

 

Manetheren old blood was, as you said "undiluted". Other old bloods were more diluted xD And yes, that's exactly what they were, inbred hicks. Old small town in the middle of nowhere, what else can you expect? D:

 

But diluted by what? How is Manetheren blood supposed to be any more valuable than, say, Safer blood?

[capuga]

Anyway, we learned from the Avi scene that channeling male Aiel will/may in the future become known as Dragon Blooded. It is unclear what type of organization they will have, but apparently they will remain distinct from the Black Tower.

 

The people in Avi's future vision known as "Dragon Blooded" were the direct descendents of Rand. That is why they are held in such high esteem. It included the descendents of his kids from both Avi and Elayne. It wasn't a term for channeling male Aiels in general, although some of Rand's descendents likely will be males that can channel.

[capuga]

But Eamond's Field housing a large amount of strong channelers wasn't because of the ta'veren effect; all of those channelers were there before they became ta'veren. And I believe it was theorized in the books that they found such strong channelers there because the blood of Manetherend was strong there, and that it wasn't mixed or diluted, or whatever. Since extremely few of those potential channelers left the Two Rivers, they would have gotten married and passed the gene down, withing "culling" away the ability. 3/4 sparkers might've died from channeling sickness, but even then, the fourth sparker would probably have married and gotten children, which would also contribute to passing down the channeling gene. With no culling effect, there would be a more "normal" rate of stronger channelers there compared to the rest of the world. We've seen a significant number of strong channelers among the Aiel, who are unculled. Amys, Someryn, Therava ... the same would be true for the Two Rivers.

 

I wouldn't, however, have been surprised if Rand had attracted several Aiel male channelers by now, since he is ta'veren at the moment.

 

Incidentally, I always found the notion the "undiluted blood of Manerethan" bit was too much like saying that inbred hicks are more likely to produce heroes. What makes Manerethan blood any more special than the blood of any other old countries? "Old Blood" has always been a silly concept with Unfortunate Implications.

 

Anyway, we learned from the Avi scene that channeling male Aiel will/may in the future become known as Dragon Blooded. It is unclear what type of organization they will have, but apparently they will remain distinct from the Black Tower.

 

Manetheren old blood was, as you said "undiluted". Other old bloods were more diluted xD And yes, that's exactly what they were, inbred hicks. Old small town in the middle of nowhere, what else can you expect? D:

 

But diluted by what? How is Manetheren blood supposed to be any more valuable than, say, Safer blood?

 

Channeling ability and strength is partly tied to genetics. Manetherens as a people were strong channelers. So with less dilution of the blood, those strong genetic characteristics have been passed down to the current Two Rivers folks.

[Ananta]

But Eamond's Field housing a large amount of strong channelers wasn't because of the ta'veren effect; all of those channelers were there before they became ta'veren. And I believe it was theorized in the books that they found such strong channelers there because the blood of Manetherend was strong there, and that it wasn't mixed or diluted, or whatever. Since extremely few of those potential channelers left the Two Rivers, they would have gotten married and passed the gene down, withing "culling" away the ability. 3/4 sparkers might've died from channeling sickness, but even then, the fourth sparker would probably have married and gotten children, which would also contribute to passing down the channeling gene. With no culling effect, there would be a more "normal" rate of stronger channelers there compared to the rest of the world. We've seen a significant number of strong channelers among the Aiel, who are unculled. Amys, Someryn, Therava ... the same would be true for the Two Rivers.

 

I wouldn't, however, have been surprised if Rand had attracted several Aiel male channelers by now, since he is ta'veren at the moment.

 

Incidentally, I always found the notion the "undiluted blood of Manerethan" bit was too much like saying that inbred hicks are more likely to produce heroes. What makes Manerethan blood any more special than the blood of any other old countries? "Old Blood" has always been a silly concept with Unfortunate Implications.

 

Anyway, we learned from the Avi scene that channeling male Aiel will/may in the future become known as Dragon Blooded. It is unclear what type of organization they will have, but apparently they will remain distinct from the Black Tower.

 

Manetheren old blood was, as you said "undiluted". Other old bloods were more diluted xD And yes, that's exactly what they were, inbred hicks. Old small town in the middle of nowhere, what else can you expect? D:

 

But diluted by what? How is Manetheren blood supposed to be any more valuable than, say, Safer blood?

Dilluted by other people. Because of the "inbreeding", their genepool (blood) stays much the same, due to no outside genes entering the circulation.

 

Take countries like Finland and America. American genepool is much bigger and has more variety, due to huge amount of people, there are Natives, English, African, South American, Mexican etc etc etc.

 

Whereas in small countries like Finland, the variety in genepool is a lot smaller, and there are only Finns (By this I mean Finnish people, not Aelfinns and Eelfinns xD). Finland is rather inbred country, in that sense.

 

So Finnish blood is "strong" and undilluted, while American blood is dilluted D:

 

 

D: It's all about genetics.

[andrewatk]

But Eamond's Field housing a large amount of strong channelers wasn't because of the ta'veren effect; all of those channelers were there before they became ta'veren. And I believe it was theorized in the books that they found such strong channelers there because the blood of Manetherend was strong there, and that it wasn't mixed or diluted, or whatever. Since extremely few of those potential channelers left the Two Rivers, they would have gotten married and passed the gene down, withing "culling" away the ability. 3/4 sparkers might've died from channeling sickness, but even then, the fourth sparker would probably have married and gotten children, which would also contribute to passing down the channeling gene. With no culling effect, there would be a more "normal" rate of stronger channelers there compared to the rest of the world. We've seen a significant number of strong channelers among the Aiel, who are unculled. Amys, Someryn, Therava ... the same would be true for the Two Rivers.

 

I wouldn't, however, have been surprised if Rand had attracted several Aiel male channelers by now, since he is ta'veren at the moment.

 

Incidentally, I always found the notion the "undiluted blood of Manerethan" bit was too much like saying that inbred hicks are more likely to produce heroes. What makes Manerethan blood any more special than the blood of any other old countries? "Old Blood" has always been a silly concept with Unfortunate Implications.

 

Anyway, we learned from the Avi scene that channeling male Aiel will/may in the future become known as Dragon Blooded. It is unclear what type of organization they will have, but apparently they will remain distinct from the Black Tower.

 

Manetheren old blood was, as you said "undiluted". Other old bloods were more diluted xD And yes, that's exactly what they were, inbred hicks. Old small town in the middle of nowhere, what else can you expect? D:

 

But diluted by what? How is Manetheren blood supposed to be any more valuable than, say, Safer blood?

Dilluted by other people. Because of the "inbreeding", their genepool (blood) stays much the same, due to no outside genes entering the circulation.

 

Take countries like Finland and America. American genepool is much bigger and has more variety, due to huge amount of people, there are Natives, English, African, South American, Mexican etc etc etc.

 

Whereas in small countries like Finland, the variety in genepool is a lot smaller, and there are only Finns (By this I mean Finnish people, not Aelfinns and Eelfinns xD). Finland is rather inbred country, in that sense.

 

So Finnish blood is "strong" and undilluted, while American blood is dilluted D:

 

 

D: It's all about genetics.

 

 

Yeah, but does being a True Blooded Finn make one more heroic or whatever than an American? Or a Pureblooded German? Does that mean you that a Pureblood Finn has an family that is older than an American? The whole notion that some people's blood (ie ancestory) is older than others has Unfortunate Implications.

[Durinax]

Yeah, but does being a True Blooded Finn make one more heroic or whatever than an American? Or a Pureblooded German? Does that mean you that a Pureblood Finn has an family that is older than an American? The whole notion that some people's blood (ie ancestory) is older than others has Unfortunate Implications.

in some ways it does make your family older, it makes your lineage easier to track, since some families that went to america, lets say, took on higher names in an effort to change their stations in life

 

I see it more as the ancient blood of northern england in roman times held onto mysticism and their religion, etc. for longer than places with more trade and mixing of blood and tradition.