The Borderlander army: 13 Aes Sedai

[Calliro]

We know now, or seem to know, what the Borderlander army was/is up to. But what about those 13 Aes Sedai? I fairly doubt it's just coincidence. Maybe it's just a little trick of the Shadow that didn't work out very well for them ; were they meant to scare Rand away from the army, and cause by that a little more chaos.

 

Any thoughts?

[Dream]

They were probably there to shield and subdue him if, you know, Rand reacted badly to being slapped around. Seriously, how stupid is that test?

 

 

[Mulk]

dumb test, yes. It worked out in the end.

 

However, when the Borderland rulers meet in...whatever book that was...prior to undertaking their trek to find Rand, they had tried to keep their movements and thoughts secret from the Aes Sedai. I specifically recall a group found Tenobia when she was on her way to the rendezvous and she had no choice but to bring them along with her. So, no, they didn't intend to bring Aes Sedai to do that. They wound up with them anyway. That's something I've continued to wonder about.

[Morh]

Will be interesting to find out who they belong to (BA, Elaida, Rebels or some of the undesided). But guess we will have to wait for the next book for that :P

[Aquarius]

There was a very thorough theory some time ago (one of those famous Lucker's theory if I remember correctly) that concluded that these 13 with the Borderlander army could be the composed of:

- the black ajah Aes Sedai that had gone to free Mazrim Taim (he had been captured the very day of the battle of Falme and was en route to Tar Valon to be gentled)

- some of Liandrin's 13 that are unaccounted for (but I may be wrong, I thought they all were in Caemlyn playing with lady Shiaine)

- some random AS here and there that had left the Tower during the split.

[Val Mickey]

Borderlanders have a death wish. Let's march through forests and valleys, and in bitter winter, through the most powerful kingdom of the south. And if that doesn't kill us, why, we'll slap the Dragon Reborn. If that doesn't work out, we'll charge into the Blight. Perhaps pour tabasco into Taim's eye on the way.

[Darth Krewl]

I think that was made clear in the last book when Rand finally got to talk to the Borderland rulers. They wouldn't believe that he was the Dragon Reborn, until he fulfilled that old prophecy of theirs.

 

So, until they could make sure on whether Rand was the real thing or not, they had to take all of the precautions that they deemed necessary for their upcoming meeting with him. I guess that's why they traveled all the way down to Far Madding, where the Guardian cancels channeling and gathered 13 AS to shield and even gentle him, if needed.

 

When you look at it from their side of the field, it makes perfect sense. Because, till they could confirm that Rand was the real thing, there was no way for the Borderland rulers to know if he was just another mad, false Dragon who could snap and blast them all to oblivion without notice.

[Dream]

The more I think about this, the less sense it makes to me.

 

Okay, I agree with the need to verify this is the true Dragon Reborn. I can accept that slapping him would be the best way to test if he's still Dark Rand. I can also accept that the Wheel wove this bizzare test/foretelling as a fail-safe in case Rand doesn't reintegrate with LTT. In that case, Rand might need to be killed to prevent a Dark One win.

 

But consider this, if Rand had gone earlier before his epiphany, he would have failed and would have been robbed of the chance. If he went after, he would have either: (a) been all well and whole, (b) destroyed the Wheel, or © really Dark Rand.

 

If (a), the test is unnecessary. If (b), the test is meaningless. If ©, Dark Rand would have rained death on them rather than enter Far Madding.

 

Also, the foretelling was only given to one of the rulers. Did the other three have to slap him as well?

[rand4747]

they knew he was the dragon reborn, what they wanted to know is his state of mind, whether he was sane or not and how he would react to them. The specific questions weren't a test to see if he was the dragon but to basically see if he had integrated with lews therin or whether he hadn't, so whether he had done the VoG thing. If he could not answer the questions or reacted poorly they would kill him because the world would be better off with the dragon dead than have him become as bad as the shadow.

 

He was sort of doing the shadar logoth thing, become like the shadow to fight it, and the mistrust of everything.

 

But as for the aes sedai, after they appeared in the borderlander camp the thought was probably to shield him in Andor and test him there.

[Durinax]

I think they where undecided AS, that they said

[gary0044187]

This whole borderlander army in the south thing smacks of the will of the pattern. They had to slap rand to see if he was lightside rand or darkside rand, if he was darkside rand my guess is the pattern would have abandoned him as taverin and the 13 AS would have been able to shield him. Remember the DO only wins if he gets Rand to convert. This was the last test of the light to ensure Rand was not going down the wrong road.

[Darth Krewl]

The more I think about this, the less sense it makes to me.

 

Okay, I agree with the need to verify this is the true Dragon Reborn. I can accept that slapping him would be the best way to test if he's still Dark Rand. I can also accept that the Wheel wove this bizzare test/foretelling as a fail-safe in case Rand doesn't reintegrate with LTT. In that case, Rand might need to be killed to prevent a Dark One win.

 

But consider this, if Rand had gone earlier before his epiphany, he would have failed and would have been robbed of the chance. If he went after, he would have either: (a) been all well and whole, (b) destroyed the Wheel, or © really Dark Rand.

 

If (a), the test is unnecessary. If (b), the test is meaningless. If ©, Dark Rand would have rained death on them rather than enter Far Madding.

 

Also, the foretelling was only given to one of the rulers. Did the other three have to slap him as well?

 

Nobody slapped Rand to see if he was "Dark" Rand, because the Borderland rulers had no idea of the deeds, actions and much less, the thoughts of this character. The way news travel in the Randland added to the way we've all seen that the word "communication" seems to be all but absent from their common Tongue, I think it's pretty safe to say that all they knew about the guy was that he was a very powerful channeler who had been wreaking havoc in the south, just like countless false Dragons had done in the past.

 

They slapped him to find out what his reaction would be. If he was a mad channeler, he could've snapped right then and there and tried to lash out at them with the One Power (hence the need for the protection offered by Guardian and 13 Aes Sedai, both). They had no idea of the voice in his head, his deeds as "Dark" Rand, his epiphany or integration of any memories. They couldn't have because they had no way of knowing. Not even Min knows all about Rand. Only he and the readers have been privy to all of his thoughts, words and actions.

 

All they knew was that someone had foretold one of them that the Dragon Reborn should know the answer to the question that was made to him. I'm not even sure if they knew what Lews Therin's relation with the woman they asked him about really was all about or if they cared that much about it. The important thing was to see if Rand would provide them with the right answer. He answered correctly and their doubts dissipated.

 

Had the Borderland rulers known about Rand's exploits in full detail, I'm sure they would've never doubted him and left their countries in the first place. Because, unlike what many have said these people are no idiots. Had they known that the Dragon was actually reborn, they would've reinforced their borders instead of heading south, well aware of the fact that all kinds of Shadowspawn were about to invade them at any given time.

 

It makes all the sense in the world when one thinks about it and is the only logical explanation for the seemingly questionable behavior displayed by these rulers since they decided to travel south.

[Durinax]

actually I quite enjoyed their explanation of their actions

 

the whole going naked into the storm bit was quite powerful to how going into a war naked was better than going in behind an unreliable shield

[Kaznen]

The AS with Tenbiona were Reds dispatched by Elidia to "Advise" her.

[Luckers]

The AS with Tenbiona were Reds dispatched by Elidia to "Advise" her.

 

Nope. You speak of Memara, who offended Tenobia deeply and was left behind.

 

 

There was a very thorough theory some time ago (one of those famous Lucker's theory if I remember correctly) that concluded that these 13 with the Borderlander army could be the composed of:

- the black ajah Aes Sedai that had gone to free Mazrim Taim (he had been captured the very day of the battle of Falme and was en route to Tar Valon to be gentled)

- some of Liandrin's 13 that are unaccounted for (but I may be wrong, I thought they all were in Caemlyn playing with lady Shiaine)

- some random AS here and there that had left the Tower during the split

 

It was just Taim's folk. My theory related to Liandrin's thirteen involved Perrin. Though a part of the theory was that two of the Aes Sedai are random's from the split--one we know for sure was an adviser and not involved in Taim's capture.

[David Selig]

Nobody slapped Rand to see if he was "Dark" Rand, because the Borderland rulers had no idea of the deeds, actions and much less, the thoughts of this character. The way news travel in the Randland added to the way we've all seen that the word "communication" seems to be all but absent from their common Tongue, I think it's pretty safe to say that all they knew about the guy was that he was a very powerful channeler who had been wreaking havoc in the south, just like countless false Dragons had done in the past.

Actually the Borderlander rulers knew from Hurin's report that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He was at Falme, he saw what happened there and that Rand is not a False Dragon, but the real one.

 

They came to test him because they believed he was the real Dragon Reborn. Tenobia and Ethenielle still had some doubt, but even they mostly believed it, as we saw during their meeting with Elayne in WH, where they spoke of the Dragon Reborn, not the so-callled Dragon or a False Dragon, and they knew what had happened at Falme.

 

The prophesy applies only to the real Dragon Reborn, "the one who raises mountains". Paitar told Rand "I have always believed you to be the Dragon Reborn. That made my quest here even more vital.".

[Dream]

Nobody slapped Rand to see if he was "Dark" Rand, because the Borderland rulers had no idea of the deeds, actions and much less, the thoughts of this character. The way news travel in the Randland added to the way we've all seen that the word "communication" seems to be all but absent from their common Tongue, I think it's pretty safe to say that all they knew about the guy was that he was a very powerful channeler who had been wreaking havoc in the south, just like countless false Dragons had done in the past.

 

They slapped him to find out what his reaction would be. If he was a mad channeler, he could've snapped right then and there and tried to lash out at them with the One Power (hence the need for the protection offered by Guardian and 13 Aes Sedai, both). They had no idea of the voice in his head, his deeds as "Dark" Rand, his epiphany or integration of any memories. They couldn't have because they had no way of knowing. Not even Min knows all about Rand. Only he and the readers have been privy to all of his thoughts, words and actions.

 

All they knew was that someone had foretold one of them that the Dragon Reborn should know the answer to the question that was made to him. I'm not even sure if they knew what Lews Therin's relation with the woman they asked him about really was all about or if they cared that much about it. The important thing was to see if Rand would provide them with the right answer. He answered correctly and their doubts dissipated.

 

Had the Borderland rulers known about Rand's exploits in full detail, I'm sure they would've never doubted him and left their countries in the first place. Because, unlike what many have said these people are no idiots. Had they known that the Dragon was actually reborn, they would've reinforced their borders instead of heading south, well aware of the fact that all kinds of Shadowspawn were about to invade them at any given time.

 

It makes all the sense in the world when one thinks about it and is the only logical explanation for the seemingly questionable behavior displayed by these rulers since they decided to travel south.

Nah, the entire test was to see whether he had successfully reintegrated or was still Dark Rand. What they knew about him is irrelevant. They were simply given instructions on what to do and what to expect. As others have said, this was not just a test to see if he was the Dragon Reborn. Rand has always been the Dragon Reborn and yet he would have failed the test before his reintegration. As I wrote earlier, this is the Wheel's fail-safe in case Rand does not achieve reintegration. The four rulers are only carrying out the Wheel's will.

 

My argument is that the entire exercise was pointless the way it was carried out. The borderlanders were never in a position to succeed against Dark Rand.

[randsc]

Borderlanders have a death wish. Let's march through forests and valleys, and in bitter winter, through the most powerful kingdom of the south. And if that doesn't kill us, why, we'll slap the Dragon Reborn. If that doesn't work out, we'll charge into the Blight. Perhaps pour tabasco into Taim's eye on the way.

 

You know, this is one thing that has always gotten to me. Andor being such a powerhouse. I know that Jordan described it as such in interviews, but we have really never been given any reason in the books to believe that Andor is a superpower. It seems more of a peer of nations like Tear, Illian and Cairhein than their superior.

 

Indeed, we hear Faile describe her proposed alliance as being of, "Not the strongest nations" without correction by Elayne.

 

And in terms of simple military strength, one would think any one of the borderlands Andors' match. We aren't given any reason to think that they are much smaller, and their level of readiness is certainly higher. Belgium may have a larger population and economy than Israel, but if you had to fight one of them, which would it be? If it is true that Narishma, as a borderland cobblers son, could best virtually all trained southland soldiers with the sword while still in his mid-teens, I'm not sure that Andor's possibly larger population would do it much good.

 

Add to that the fact that Andor cannot maintain its own territorial integrity by providing services to and extracting revenue from lands it claims sovereignty over, and it really starts to look like a paper lion.

[Darth Krewl]

Actually the Borderlander rulers knew from Hurin's report that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He was at Falme, he saw what happened there and that Rand is not a False Dragon, but the real one.

 

They came to test him because they believed he was the real Dragon Reborn. Tenobia and Ethenielle still had some doubt, but even they mostly believed it, as we saw during their meeting with Elayne in WH, where they spoke of the Dragon Reborn, not the so-callled Dragon or a False Dragon, and they knew what had happened at Falme.

 

The prophesy applies only to the real Dragon Reborn, "the one who raises mountains". Paitar told Rand "I have always believed you to be the Dragon Reborn. That made my quest here even more vital.".

 

Okay, Hurin, to my knowledge, is little more than a foot soldier. He's a thief-catcher, because of his "sense of smell", but not a high ranking official or noble whose word would hold such sway, IIRC. Perhaps the guy had an impeccable reputation and the king of Shienar trusted him implicitly, but if I was the ruler of another nation I'd give his testimony the consideration it deserves -- especially if my fellow ruler from Shienar backs up his man's words -- but I'd still need a little more convincing evidence.

 

It makes all the sense in the world that you would seek much more convincing evidence, because you're responsible over thousands of lives. You can't depend on something that may just turn out to be rumor or hearsay. Your people are dependent on your decisions, so you have to gather as much proof as you can, regardless on how much weight you place on Hurin's words. So, you can't just go like "oh yeah! Some "police detective" from Shienar says he's pals with the Dragon Reborn. I'll take his word for it."

 

Of course the prophecy applies only to the Dragon Reborn. That's why you test his legitimacy to the claim with the question about an obscure someone from the AoL whom only Lews Therin could have known. Makes no sense to ask this of him, if and when you believe that he's the real deal. And this quote, direct from the book, clearly demonstrates that this still required confirmation:

 

"That presumes that he is the Dragon Reborn," Tenobia said, folding her arms. "We—"

She cut off as Rand stood, then carefully slid Callandor from its sheath, glittering blade rasping. He held it forth. "Do you deny this, Queen Tenobia, Shield of the North and Sword of the Blightborder, High Seat of House Kazadi? Will you look upon this weapon and call me a false Dragon?"

That quieted her. To the side, Easar nodded. Behind them, ranks of silent troops watched with lances, pikes and shields held high. As if in salute. Or as if in preparation to attack. Min looked up, and could faintly make out people lining the walls of Far Madding to watch.

"Let us proceed," Easar said. "Ethenielle?"

"Very well," the woman said. "I will say this, Rand al'Thor. Even if you do prove to be the Dragon Reborn, you have much to answer for."

"You may take your price from my skin, Ethenielle," Rand said softly, sliding Callandor back into its sheath. "But only once the Dark One has had his day with me."

"Rand al'Thor," Paitar said. "I have a question for you. How you answer will determine the outcome of this day."

 

Now, this quote clearly proves that the Borderland rulers still had to make sure that Rand was the Dragon Reborn. Even Paitar. And this comes from the book itself (Chapter 51: A Testing) and not from my personal take on the whole thing.

 

At no point during this entire passage do any of the Borderland rulers admit to having known that Rand was the real thing before hand. So, "mostly believing" is not the same as "completely believing". You might have interpreted it that way but I read it completely different. So again, to me it seems like these people still needed confirmation, as they certainly should, IMO.

[David Selig]

Paitar believed from the start, he said so himself, and Rand sensed he was telling the truth.

"Lord Paitar, I see it in your eyes. You know that I am the Dragon Reborn. Is this question necessary?"

 

"It is vital, Lord al'Thor," Paitar replied. "It drove us here, though my allies did not know it from the start. I have always believed you to be the Dragon Reborn. That made my quest here even more vital."

 

Paitar was the one who instigated the whole business, this prophesy was only known in his family. The main point of this expedition was not to confirm whether Rand's the real Dragon Reborn or not, but to test him whether he's too far gone to the Dark Side as to be better to kill him than let him continue to descent towards madness and destructing the Pattern. They believed the prophesy, as they explained to Rand later when he told them their plan was foolish. That's why they took the armies - to overwhelm The dragon Reborn's forces forces if necessary and kill him.

[capuga]

Paitar believed from the start, he said so himself, and Rand sensed he was telling the truth.

"Lord Paitar, I see it in your eyes. You know that I am the Dragon Reborn. Is this question necessary?"

 

"It is vital, Lord al'Thor," Paitar replied. "It drove us here, though my allies did not know it from the start. I have always believed you to be the Dragon Reborn. That made my quest here even more vital."

 

Paitar was the one who instigated the whole business, this prophesy was only known in his family. The main point of this expedition was not to confirm whether Rand's the real Dragon Reborn or not, but to test him whether he's too far gone to the Dark Side as to be better to kill him than let him continue to descent towards madness and destructing the Pattern. They believed the prophesy, as they explained to Rand later when he told them their plan was foolish. That's why they took the armies - to overwhelm The dragon Reborn's forces forces if necessary and kill him.

 

I think you are somewhat conferring some of the reader's knowledge onto the Borderlanders. We know that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. We know that the true purpose of this prophecy is to stop Rand if he failed to leave the path of Dark Rand. However, the Borderlanders do not know this. Believing is not knowing. To them they were given a prophecy that was to be used to confirm the identity of the Dragon Reborn. Only then will they truly know that Rand is the real Dragon Reborn. This may just confirm what most of them already believe, but they still needed the confirmation.

[Darth Krewl]

Paitar believed from the start, he said so himself, and Rand sensed he was telling the truth.

"Lord Paitar, I see it in your eyes. You know that I am the Dragon Reborn. Is this question necessary?"

 

"It is vital, Lord al'Thor," Paitar replied. "It drove us here, though my allies did not know it from the start. I have always believed you to be the Dragon Reborn. That made my quest here even more vital."

 

Paitar was the one who instigated the whole business, this prophesy was only known in his family. The main point of this expedition was not to confirm whether Rand's the real Dragon Reborn or not, but to test him whether he's too far gone to the Dark Side as to be better to kill him than let him continue to descent towards madness and destructing the Pattern. They believed the prophesy, as they explained to Rand later when he told them their plan was foolish. That's why they took the armies - to overwhelm The dragon Reborn's forces forces if necessary and kill him.

 

The part I've highlighted in bold clearly indicates that 3/4 of the Borlerland rulers, at least, were still not convinced enough of Rand's legitimacy as the Dragon Reborn. And, since they had decided to join forces and make decisions as one single alliance since they started meeting to discuss the situation some 4, 5 books ago, that means they all thought as one single alliance. So, whether Paitar believed Rand to be the Dragon Reborn or not, the consensus would clearly seem to be against him. All he could do was put in the good word for Rand and hope for the best, because again, all decisions were dependent on the general consensus and not individual feelings or opinions.

 

Easar of Shienar might've thought it a bad idea to leave his post unguarded, for instance or, Tenobia of Saldaea may have been against traveling as far down south as Far Madding or, Ethenielle of Kandor might have thought it unwise to take all of her armies with her. Yet, they all agreed, as a consensus, an alliance, as one, to do what they all considered necessary and did so, regardless of how reluctant or resigned the decisions of the majority might have made each one feel at an individual level. Therefore, I stand by what I said: the reason why the Borderland rulers went through all the trouble they went through was to prove that Rand al'Thor was truly the Dragon Reborn and test his sanity.

[moratcorlm]

Mark Grayson's point is well taken. We have to distinguish between what the Borderlanders know, and Darth Krewl is more or less right about that, and what the Pattern's purpose in that prophecy was, which is more or less what David Selig says. The Wheel sent the Borderlanders as a final corrective measure should Rand not have truly become the Dragon, champion of the Light etc., but they did not fully understand that.

[Darth Krewl]

Nah, the entire test was to see whether he had successfully reintegrated or was still Dark Rand. What they knew about him is irrelevant. They were simply given instructions on what to do and what to expect. As others have said, this was not just a test to see if he was the Dragon Reborn. Rand has always been the Dragon Reborn and yet he would have failed the test before his reintegration. As I wrote earlier, this is the Wheel's fail-safe in case Rand does not achieve reintegration. The four rulers are only carrying out the Wheel's will.

 

My argument is that the entire exercise was pointless the way it was carried out. The borderlanders were never in a position to succeed against Dark Rand.

 

The quotes both, David Selig and I, have provided --extracted directly from the book-- are enough to prove what the Bordlerland rulers intended: trying to obtain proof that Rand al'Thor was the Dragon Reborn. Sometimes, the simplest explanation is all there is to it.

[babuada]

"Lord Paitar, I see it in your eyes. You know that I am the Dragon Reborn. Is this question necessary?"

 

"It is vital, Lord al'Thor," Paitar replied. "It drove us here, though my allies did not know it from the start. I have always believed you to be the Dragon Reborn. That made my quest here even more vital."

 

Your own quote proves you wrong. Paitar did not come here to test the identity of Dragon Reborn. This test is not for that. Rest of them does not know and does not understand. So, they came to test the identity, but not Paitar. And it is not fail safe of Pattern. Failsafe of patter was slowing them down to prevent the disaster. It is a trick of DO like all the profecies are. Profecies are the more dangerous chain that Rand allowed to put on himself. He broke that chain at VOG (He laughed instead of crying).