The White Tower - Seanchan Attack

[Grandis]

That is why the a'dam will not hold her. Because she has not spent enough years as sul'dam, and she chooses not to LEARN

When did Bethamine and Seta got to learn? They were just Suldam and still were collared because they gave in to the greed. It is inherent to the way channelers reach for power. I believe there is a better way where channellers will not want it but still can use it when available. Tuon's did in KoD shows exactly that.

There once was a project dedicated to finding a new way to channel. It did not end well.

[SvetSedi]

 

Your logic forgot that the Aes Sedai bind themselves to a device they call the Oath Rod. This prevents them from attacking pre-emptively (Joline in KOD - "I must feel in danger first" - cue Teslyn nodding) except in the case of Darkfriends (unless I'm mistaken of course).

 

To give you an example: Lets go have a fight and let me have the first blow. I gurantee you that by me having the first blow my chances went from even odds, to 80-90% odds (I'm not hitting you with my fist btw, something a 'little' more lethal). Now multiply that by however many grunts/channelers you have in your force. This is what the Aes Sedai do to themselves.

 

I disagree.

 

1. The Oath Rod, does not limit AS from shielding the Seanchan damane, it does not limit them from wraping them in air or otherwise subdueing them as caddy did with Tam. Did he threated her in any way? Did the DR threaten the AS an any way when he came to TV - no, but they still shielded him.

 

2. Also it would not keep them from using a flick of air to release the a'dam either.

 

3. On top of everything else, the Seanchan are not comming to kill the AS, they are comming mainly to collar them, so it will be shielders against shielders. And the AS may not be taught as many battle weaves as the Seanchan, but they have been trained shielding, since they all were responsible for watching for men who could channel. We have seen many AS of all colors that knew how to shield. I have yet to hear of ONE AS that did not know how the shield.

 

 

Initiative is everything in a military campaign and Aes Sedai as the "damane" of their forces can never take the initiative - the greatest initiative the Aes Sedai can employ would be a defense (Dumai Wells - cue Ash'aman walking all over them).

 

I agree that suprise and inovation are a hugh factor in battle. But saying that the AS can never take the initiative is incorrect as I stated above. At Dumai Wells the AS were caught by suprise first by the Aiel and then by the Ash'amen. The same in the first WT attack. Both of these were under Elaida I might add. I do agree though, that if the WT AS let themselves be suprised again and have not been practicing and taking precautions again, they will get their butts whipped again and rightly deserve it.

 

But from Elaida's Fortelling, it says that the WT will be stronger than ever. If the WT gets another A$$ Whipping by the Seanchan, I do not see how it could ever be "stronger than ever".

[RedVanilla]

I bet the insane amount of Novices with actual life experience will play a huge part in it.

[babuada]

No, it is not her words to Mat. That is not at all what she said. How did Rand escape the Domination Band? Did he stop being greedy? No, he used the TP. The a'dam will hold any woman who can channel. Someone who can learn will not be held unless they are on the verge of touching the TS. To the Seanchan, touching the Source makes you an animal. Some have no choice, but are still animals. Others might have a choice, in which case by refusing to touch it they are refusing to become animals. Tuon is one who can refuse, and is doing so. Greed has nothing to do with it, and there is no evidence anywhere in the books to support that an a'dam will only hold you if you are greedy, quite the reverse. If you would like to say different, please provide quotes.

Old Rand does not have the knowledge. If anybody could have the knowledge to defeat the A'dam (not just bypass it with TP) it is the Rand5.0. You have to reach for Saidar, open yourself up. It is a concious decision to reach for power. It is this concious action that may be faulty. You have to want it badly to get it. I know it is a strech. But floating this theory anyway to find if it gets a hold.

Here is Shriam's quote about 13x13 that started my thought.

“This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever,

but I will tell you. There is - a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True

Source means that we can be opened to other things.”

[Suttree]

name='SvetSedi' timestamp='1292812638' post='1703282']

2. Also it would not keep them from using a flick of air to release the a'dam either.

 

This would be an absolute disaster on a battlefield . Except for any recently caught Aes Sedai you would have frightened, confused women lashing out in every direction with the one power. As sickening as it is, the majority(as we have seen in the books) would be begging to have the collars put back on looking to punish those who were responsible.

[babuada]

name='SvetSedi' timestamp='1292812638' post='1703282']

2. Also it would not keep them from using a flick of air to release the a'dam either.

 

This would be an absolute disaster on a battlefield . Except for any recently caught Aes Sedai you would have frightened, confused women lashing out in every direction with the one power. As sickening as it is, the majority(as we have seen in the books) would be begging to have the collars put back on looking to punish those who were responsible.

Everybody seems to be thinking it is just power fight. It is not. Seanchan will send troops with bloodknifes and Suldam. Bloodknifes will kill whatever warders are left. They are invisible. Suldam will collar channelers. Tower will be toast before anyone feels threatened enough to actually do anyhting.

[swordedge]

I think there is a chance that if the Seanchan attack the white tower, they will find not just AS there, but Wise ones and Windfinders too. Why? Cause Aviendha has realized that the white tower MUST stand for her people to even have a decent future. So she persuades people. I also think that she has not 'read' the a'dam. I think she can get out of one.

[babuada]

I think there is a chance that if the Seanchan attack the white tower, they will find not just AS there, but Wise ones and Windfinders too. Why? Cause Aviendha has realized that the white tower MUST stand for her people to even have a decent future. So she persuades people. I also think that she has not 'read' the a'dam. I think she can get out of one.

Avi for WT? Why do you think that? I agree that with WF and WO tower has a much better chance, but still too low. Avi has around a month after Rhuidian to gather them. So, if she wants she has time.

[moratcorlm]

I think there is a chance that if the Seanchan attack the white tower, they will find not just AS there, but Wise ones and Windfinders too. Why? Cause Aviendha has realized that the white tower MUST stand for her people to even have a decent future. So she persuades people. I also think that she has not 'read' the a'dam. I think she can get out of one.

The Tower stood in her vision. And then it fell. I don't think holding back the Seanchan at this particular battle would be enough to alter the course of the vision. Confrontation is not the answer for the Aiel.

[randsc]

I bet the insane amount of Novices with actual life experience will play a huge part in it.

 

^^^^This.

 

The novices will have been left behind when the Aes Sedai go to the Plain of Merilor. The older novics will be able to hold out against the Seanchan. This will be seen by the other Aes Sedai as a sign that Egwene is correct in all of her proposed reforms, and a person of surpassing wisdom. I will thenn vomit all over the book, throw it away, and never read any of them again.

 

Or, hopefully, the older novices will hold off the Seanchan just long enough for Mat to arrive looking for the Horn.

[Mr Ares]

No, it is not her words to Mat. That is not at all what she said. How did Rand escape the Domination Band? Did he stop being greedy? No, he used the TP. The a'dam will hold any woman who can channel. Someone who can learn will not be held unless they are on the verge of touching the TS. To the Seanchan, touching the Source makes you an animal. Some have no choice, but are still animals. Others might have a choice, in which case by refusing to touch it they are refusing to become animals. Tuon is one who can refuse, and is doing so. Greed has nothing to do with it, and there is no evidence anywhere in the books to support that an a'dam will only hold you if you are greedy, quite the reverse. If you would like to say different, please provide quotes.

Old Rand does not have the knowledge. If anybody could have the knowledge to defeat the A'dam (not just bypass it with TP) it is the Rand5.0

I don't know this character.

You have to reach for Saidar, open yourself up. It is a concious decision to reach for power.

Not true - sparkers start channeling not knowing what they are doing. Yet they could still be held with an a'dam.

[ranjitb]

The novices will have been left behind when the Aes Sedai go to the Plain of Merilor. The older novics will be able to hold out against the Seanchan. This will be seen by the other Aes Sedai as a sign that Egwene is correct in all of her proposed reforms, and a person of surpassing wisdom.

 

Oh snap, you *know* this is going to happen.

 

It's interesting that out of all the main characters we still have two - Egwene and Tuon - who remain the ONLY two who have not had their "moment of clarity" yet. That is to say, both of these women continue to believe that their way is the only way - that only they amongst a sea of people possess any wisdom and manage to do the right thing, while everyone else around them must be guided to the true path.

And more irritatingly the events of the story continue to conspire to uphold this self belief.

 

Awesomely these two are also set up as being completely and utterly in opposition to each other - everyone else may make their compromises but you know that the Amyrylin Seat of the White Tower and Ever Living Empress of Seanchan can never co-exist without one giving in.

 

And while this immovable object and irresistible force setup is good setup for a few chapters I can say with some confidence that we already know (from the appendices and such) that Tuon is in the wrong (not to mention there is absolutely no way the Seanchan can win - after all they keep "slaves" and our modern belief system anachronistically applied automatically makes them the bad guys) and somehow or the other will see the error of her ways, and Egwene-Sue will prevail supreme.

Its just a matter of seeing how much more her personal influence and cachet will grow while bringing the Seanchan to heel, something that everyone will know even the great Lord Dragon failed to do.

[capuga]

No, it is not her words to Mat. That is not at all what she said. How did Rand escape the Domination Band? Did he stop being greedy? No, he used the TP. The a'dam will hold any woman who can channel. Someone who can learn will not be held unless they are on the verge of touching the TS. To the Seanchan, touching the Source makes you an animal. Some have no choice, but are still animals. Others might have a choice, in which case by refusing to touch it they are refusing to become animals. Tuon is one who can refuse, and is doing so. Greed has nothing to do with it, and there is no evidence anywhere in the books to support that an a'dam will only hold you if you are greedy, quite the reverse. If you would like to say different, please provide quotes.

Old Rand does not have the knowledge. If anybody could have the knowledge to defeat the A'dam (not just bypass it with TP) it is the Rand5.0. You have to reach for Saidar, open yourself up. It is a concious decision to reach for power. It is this concious action that may be faulty. You have to want it badly to get it. I know it is a strech. But floating this theory anyway to find if it gets a hold.

 

Old Rand doesn't have the knowledge to break the Domination Band? He did this before he became super-Rand in VoG. Also, he doesn't channel Saidar. I'm not clear on what your argument is here.

 

Here is Shriam's quote about 13x13 that started my thought.

“This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever,

but I will tell you. There is - a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True

Source means that we can be opened to other things.”

 

You will notice that the quote talks about opening yourself to the Source. Women open themselves to the Source and surrender to it in order to use it. They do not "greedily" reach for the Power. In fact, that is directly opposite to how women using the power is described throughout the books. Yes, the Power is addictive. That is just the nature of the Power and has nothing to do with the women using it. If they give into this addictive nature and draw more than they can handle then they die or get burnt out. So actually the women you see alive and well channeling are the opposite of "greedy" - They are the ones that have learned to control the addiction and not pull in too much Power.

 

As others have mentioned, the Seanchan collar sparkers before they ever begin channeling. They don't know they can channel until they fail the a'dam test. So these women have certainly never "greedily" reached for the Power but they are still held by the a'dam.

 

This is not really the opinions of those of us trying to explain this - These are the fundamental facts that have been laid out in the books.

[SvetSedi]

This would be an absolute disaster on a battlefield . Except for any recently caught Aes Sedai you would have frightened, confused women lashing out in every direction with the one power. As sickening as it is, the majority(as we have seen in the books) would be begging to have the collars put back on looking to punish those who were responsible.

No. You would release the braclet end, not the coller end. The same trick Egwene used in the WT raid. Why would anyone even consider releasing the opposite end? As you said that would be a desaster. So they obviously would not do it. Once the braclet is released the damaine automattically stop channeling, Just as they did in the WT raid.

[jmikea]

I think there is a chance that if the Seanchan attack the white tower, they will find not just AS there, but Wise ones and Windfinders too. Why? Cause Aviendha has realized that the white tower MUST stand for her people to even have a decent future. So she persuades people. I also think that she has not 'read' the a'dam. I think she can get out of one.

 

They will find something even worse waiting for them... the pattern itself will whip up an opposing force for them in the form of a certain ta'veren Prince of Ravens with a funny looking horn. Personally I think the battle of the White Tower will be short and anticlimactic.

 

Mat's presence may be the trigger that gets Tuon (and/or Mat, since he's technically of the royal family too) to go do whatever the Imperial Family is supposed to do at the Towers of Midnight. They can't have chosen to name the book after them and add them to the glossary for no reason (*ignoring Knife of Dreams...*) Whatever comes of this arc, the Daughter of the Nine Moons will end up bound to the Dragon in fulfillment of yet another prophesy.

[blazetheearth]

I think there is a chance that if the Seanchan attack the white tower, they will find not just AS there, but Wise ones and Windfinders too. Why? Cause Aviendha has realized that the white tower MUST stand for her people to even have a decent future. So she persuades people. I also think that she has not 'read' the a'dam. I think she can get out of one.

 

They will find something even worse waiting for them... the pattern itself will whip up an opposing force for them in the form of a certain ta'veren Prince of Ravens with a funny looking horn. Personally I think the battle of the White Tower will be short and anticlimactic.

 

Mat's presence may be the trigger that gets Tuon (and/or Mat, since he's technically of the royal family too) to go do whatever the Imperial Family is supposed to do at the Towers of Midnight. They can't have chosen to name the book after them and add them to the glossary for no reason (*ignoring Knife of Dreams...*) Whatever comes of this arc, the Daughter of the Nine Moons will end up bound to the Dragon in fulfillment of yet another prophesy.

 

One major point. The location in Seanchan is NOT "The Towers of Midnight". Just because "Midnight Towers" and "Towers of Midnight" are similar, there is absolutely no reason what so ever to think that they have any connection at all. "Midnight Towers" implies towers that bear an aspect of 'midnight', since 'Midnight' is an adjective in this name. Midnight describes the Towers it is referring to, but lets look at Webster's definition of the word "of"

 

¹of

prep

\əv, before consonants also ə; ˈəv, ˈäv\

Definition of OF

1 —used as a function word to indicate a point of reckoning <north of the lake> 2 a —used as a function word to indicate origin or derivation <a man of noble birth> b —used as a function word to indicate the cause, motive, or reason <died of flu> c : by <plays of Shakespeare> d : on the part of <very kind of you> e : occurring in <a fish of the western Atlantic> 3 —used as a function word to indicate the component material, parts, or elements or the contents <throne of gold> <cup of water> 4 a —used as a function word to indicate the whole that includes the part denoted by the preceding word <most of the army> b —used as a function word to indicate a whole or quantity from which a part is removed or expended <gave of his time> 5 a : relating to : about <stories of her travels> b : in respect to <slow of speech> 6 a —used as a function word to indicate belonging or a possessive relationship <king of England> b —used as a function word to indicate relationship between a result determined by a function or operation and a basic entity (as an independent variable) <a function of x> <the product of two numbers> 7 —used as a function word to indicate something from which a person or thing is delivered <eased of her pain> or with respect to which someone or something is made destitute <robbed of all their belongings> 8 a —used as a function word to indicate a particular example belonging to the class denoted by the preceding noun <the city of Rome> b —used as a function word to indicate apposition <that fool of a husband> 9 a —used as a function word to indicate the object of an action denoted or implied by the preceding noun <love of nature> b —used as a function word to indicate the application of a verb <cheats him of a dollar> or of an adjective <fond of candy> 10 —used as a function word to indicate a characteristic or distinctive quality or possession <a woman of courage> 11 a —used as a function word to indicate the position in time of an action or occurrence <died of a Monday> b : before <quarter of ten> 12 archaic : on <a plague of all cowards — Shakespeare>

 

Several of these could apply to the title of the 13th novel. For example:

 

Towers of Midnight - (a —used as a function word to indicate origin or derivation) would make it Towers born to Midnight - they could be white or shining steel as long as "Midnight" had something to do with their creation - which would make 'Midnight' refer to the Shadow. or

Towers of Midnight - (—used as a function word to indicate the component material, parts, or elements or the contents) - this would actually mean the same as Midnight Towers, but this is still only one possible interpretation of the word 'of' in the title

Towers of Midnight - (a —used as a function word to indicate a particular example belonging to the class denoted by the preceding noun) Similar to the first, but instead of "created by" in this case it is more possessive and would refer to Towers owned or ruled by Midnight/Shadow.

Towers of Midnight - (a : relating to) Possibly the simplest, especially considering Eggys dream about the Forsaken that used the imagery of each being a Tower. So Towers of Midnight could have just as easily been named "The Forsaken" if we follow this line through.

 

I wont bother with the rest, but I think that I have made the point that connecting the title of this book with the 'Midnight Towers' in Seanchan is by no means an automatic assumption for most of us. I'm not sure why you would think that it is other than the similarity in names which is just that, a similarity and nothing more so far.

 

The Seanchan Imperial Family is supposed to (paraphrase) "set right what once went wrong" at the (direct name quote) "Midnight Towers". Not Towers of Midnight.

[blazetheearth]

 

This is not really the opinions of those of us trying to explain this - These are the fundamental facts that have been laid out in the books.

 

Which is why I left that argument behind. If someone will not take what is said in the books as representing facts at all, then all of us arguing with them is going to do little good. I'd rather move on to things that haven't been made perfectly clear in the books than argue over something that was truly never an issue that there was any doubt about.

[babuada]

Whatever comes of this arc, the Daughter of the Nine Moons will end up bound to the Dragon in fulfillment of yet another prophesy.

Now that is an absolute certainty. Problem is Daughter of the Nine Moons is already dead. It is just the Empress of Nine Moons. I don't think we'll see any prophecy fulfilment from Rand's side anymore. He is going to break prophecies now. At least whatever was attached to him. That does not mean Seanchan won't be on Light side. They will break the chain of Crystal Throne (the whole army) and join Rand.

[Mr Ares]

The Prophecy said he will bind the Nine moons to serve him. As Fortuona is no longer the Daughter of the Nine moons, the prophecy can now be fulfilled.

[Elan Tedronai]

after beaten back by a circle of novices and one powerful aes sedai in the last book, i shudder to think what would happen to the fools from seandar if they attacked the current united white tower. Distribute a few more angreal and sangreal amongst the aes sedai and watch tuon and her blood thirsty army get their just rewards.

[ranjitb]

It really *must* be TG since I find myself agreeing with Elan Tedronai. LoL.

 

I find for the last few books that the bottomless military might and endless resources of the Seanchan are completely unrealistic.

Yes, presumably the "Return" was well planned for and well funded but surely they didn't empty out their entire home continent - which would be impossible anyway logistically - and have run into far more resistance than they expected.

 

Given than Seanchan itself is lost to Fortuona, they are essentially operating with the resources of Altara and Tarabon - neither of which was a famed military power. Given the Seanchans major defeats in Illian, Falme, Arad Doman, (and the white tower - where they lost a bulk of what HAD to be a limited amount of special forces) and whatever general erosion they would suffer from skirmishes with the Aiel, or in Amador or with the seafolk its completely unrealistic that they keep getting stronger and stronger.

Yes, the comeback is that they captured all the Shaido wise ones, but we have been shown that both A'dams and Sul'dams are a limited resource - and breaking down captured damane should take time not be instantaneous.

 

Right now its like - oh, you killed 2000 raken - here are 2000 more ! MWAHAHAHAHA !

WHERE ARE ALL THESE RESOURCES COMING FROM ?

Given then everyone everywhere is starving to death (or was, until recently) unless Rand and his personal bubble of sunshine show up, HOW ARE THEY FEEDING THESE ZILLION MAN ARMIES ?

[Erunion]

Here's the problem Elan, it was a small Seanchan raid that was beaten back by Eggy and crew, and they weren't as much beaten back as encouraged to leave faster than they already were going to. The Seanchan attack was a hit and run, Egwene didn't defeat them, she merely increased the Seanchan casualties and decreased the White Tower casualties.

Tactically and strategically, the Seanchan raid was a success. The next time the Seanchan attack it will be a full-scale assault planned to clear out the White Tower, as opposed to a small-scale raid intended to bloody the enemy and take prisoners.

I, personally, am very interested to see how things turn out. If the Aes Sedai are smart and prepare, they could crush the Seanchan assault. If they are caught completely unprepared, the White Tower will burn.

 

EDIT:

@Ranjitb - This was discussed in the troop deployment thread (buried here somewhere) but I'll mention it now; The Seanchan Return likely had up to a million troops, possibly more. It was planned and organized over two hundred years. That's two hundred years of building boats and gathering supplies. The Seanchan have lost considerable casualties, but are still a formidable force.

[Elan Tedronai]

this is not the white tower of elaida anymore. I can just about picture Egwene at the top of WT in the voice of wesley snipes (blade 2) shouting ''you obviously do not know who you're ****ing with'' before sending tuon and her army back to the abyss

[capuga]

It really *must* be TG since I find myself agreeing with Elan Tedronai. LoL.

 

I find for the last few books that the bottomless military might and endless resources of the Seanchan are completely unrealistic.

Yes, presumably the "Return" was well planned for and well funded but surely they didn't empty out their entire home continent - which would be impossible anyway logistically - and have run into far more resistance than they expected.

 

Given than Seanchan itself is lost to Fortuona, they are essentially operating with the resources of Altara and Tarabon - neither of which was a famed military power. Given the Seanchans major defeats in Illian, Falme, Arad Doman, (and the white tower - where they lost a bulk of what HAD to be a limited amount of special forces) and whatever general erosion they would suffer from skirmishes with the Aiel, or in Amador or with the seafolk its completely unrealistic that they keep getting stronger and stronger.

Yes, the comeback is that they captured all the Shaido wise ones, but we have been shown that both A'dams and Sul'dams are a limited resource - and breaking down captured damane should take time not be instantaneous.

 

Right now its like - oh, you killed 2000 raken - here are 2000 more ! MWAHAHAHAHA !

WHERE ARE ALL THESE RESOURCES COMING FROM ?

Given then everyone everywhere is starving to death (or was, until recently) unless Rand and his personal bubble of sunshine show up, HOW ARE THEY FEEDING THESE ZILLION MAN ARMIES ?

 

Interesting, you raise some logistical problems that I hadn't considered. Of course, others have pointed out that there are similar logistical problems elsewhere in the series as well. For example, how can the Borderlander army winter (near Caemlyn) for almost a whole winter? They didn't have a supply train from home because they were moving in secret. They didn't appear to buy much from Andor (who didn't have much to spare for sale anyway). An army of 250,000 people would very quickly strip the land around them of all eatible plants and game. I think sometimes we just have to forget about things like this and enjoy the story.

[ranjitb]

Erunion - I don't doubt your statistics but once again I ask you - even if the Seanchan number 2 million HOW ARE THEY FEEDING THEM given that there is no food left, anywhere.

 

If you would indulge an outside reference for a moment, (For)Tuona is right now acting as irritatingly and illogically as Danaerys Targaryn - chasing after a non-existent mythical homeland that she has no connection to.

Under ideal conditions - maybe - but once everything has gone to hell, still ?

 

Seanchan is bigger, and richer, and more populous, and safer than Randland. Luther Pendraeg left what - like a 1000 years ago ? A THOUSAND YEARS. Why do you care where he came from ? Wouldn't her time and effort be better spent going back and setting her own, real, homeland in order ?

 

@ Mark - you are right, that reading a story involves a certain suspension of belief - and honestly, I'd rather not spend chapters reading quartermasters reports of where the food is coming and going - but it's a question of balance.

After all, we KEEP reading about how the so-called "good guy" countries are starving to death, it just seems like a huge logical disconnect to me (and veers close to bad writing) that the Seanchan aren't suffering the same.

And incidentally the same goes for the shadowspawn - all of a sudden we had a trolloc army of millions attack Saldea - um ok, yeah blah blah they breed like rats and eat each other, but seriously ? Where did all the weapons and armor come from ? The blight seems to comprise about 5% of the worlds polar land area, does it contain 90% of the worlds iron ore ?

At this point its almost like the story needs the good guys to be trapped between two unknowable, unbeatable military behemoths (the proverbial rock and hard place) and so we are given two mighty unbeatable armies which defy the established internal logic of the books themself.