The White Tower - Seanchan Attack

[Darth Krewl]

To the question of whether or not Egwene has been preparing the WT for the next attack--although we have seen no preparations since the first attack, what do you think that was but preparation? She taught the Novices and Accepted IN COMBAT!

I agree that we should have seen more; at least some discussion in the Hall or among Sitters of strategy and tactics for the next attack, however.

 

Excuse me, but are you seriously suggesting that Egwene's lightning quick instructions to those girls, when she was seeking to resolve a crisis ASAP, constitutes actual combat training?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that, by giving those girls a crash course in links and circles in a desperate attempt to solve the emergency is really going to help these teenagers and young women in their early 20's fight back against the whole might of one of the world's mightiest and most battle-hardened armies?

 

And I thought my jokes were bad...

[Jillain Sanche]

eh Yeah! They fought back and were not taken! Even if it was a limited victory, it was actual combat training.

 

They were "in the trenches" together and not only that, but they saw her take solid leadership. It gave them backbone! Next time they will be ready to fight. They will be more ready than the full AS, in many cases.

[Androl]

To the question of whether or not Egwene has been preparing the WT for the next attack--although we have seen no preparations since the first attack, what do you think that was but preparation? She taught the Novices and Accepted IN COMBAT!

I agree that we should have seen more; at least some discussion in the Hall or among Sitters of strategy and tactics for the next attack, however.

 

Excuse me, but are you seriously suggesting that Egwene's lightning quick instructions to those girls, when she was seeking to resolve a crisis ASAP, constitutes actual combat training?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that, by giving those girls a crash course in links and circles in a desperate attempt to solve the emergency is really going to help these teenagers and young women in their early 20's fight back against the whole might of one of the world's mightiest and most battle-hardened armies?

Well, that was obviously over a month ago, so in addidtion to all that "Hands on" battle experience and training, they have had time (30 days) to hone their skills. Now those Novices will be ready to really kick some Seanchan ass.

 

What more could we want or need. Besides it will be much better smack down of the Seanchan if they get their asses kicked by a bunch of WT Novices.

[Grandis]

eh Yeah! They fought back and were not taken! Even if it was a limited victory, it was actual combat training.

 

They were "in the trenches" together and not only that, but they saw her take solid leadership. It gave them backbone! Next time they will be ready to fight. They will be more ready than the full AS, in many cases.

 

That's more of an indictment against most Aes Sedai, than anything else. They've proven themselves to be combat-ineffective in most cases, even the vaunted battle-ajah were a complete embarrassement. This is likely because Aes Sedai look down on contests using the one power.

[babuada]

Rand will not fight Seanchan. Fighting is not the key. But there are hints in previous books about how to fight the Seanchan adam. Tuon told Mat that even if she can channel, it does not matter because she does not want to. Greed is the key word. The adam only works on those woman who are greedy for power. LTT and Forsakens knew about this adam as domination band. It would be hard, but I believe Rand would teach AS and other channelers how to get rid of their greed.

[Darth Krewl]

eh Yeah! They fought back and were not taken! Even if it was a limited victory, it was actual combat training.

 

They were "in the trenches" together and not only that, but they saw her take solid leadership. It gave them backbone! Next time they will be ready to fight. They will be more ready than the full AS, in many cases.

 

So, you were serious, then I see. Are you sure you know the first thing about combat training? I mean, seriously now. Because, the drills that soldiers and martial artists have to go through are some of the toughest, harshest, most exhausting and stressful physical and mental exercises a human being can endure. And, clearly, the White Tower is not known for its prowess at teaching military strategy, tactics and discipline to their students. Their teachings are the same as you would find in a convent, while the Seanchan train their soldiers as if they were in a Dojo.

 

But, are you even aware that the Tower lost that battle? For it was never the Seanchan's intention to capture it. It was a hit & run mission, to capture as many Marath'damane as they could, inflitrate a few elite assassins and to wage their target's strengths and weaknesses. The Seanchan accomplished what they sought, while the Tower suffered a grievous blow in the process.

 

It wasn't the Aes Sedai apprentices who fought the Seanchan back (a minor advance party, btw, not a full scale attack. Huge difference right there). It was Egwene, with the help of a Ter'angreal and some very accurate shooting, who managed to fend off the attackers somewhat. Let's just wait till we see a full-scale Seanchan attack in the next book. I'm sure it won't be pretty for those tough-as-nails Aes Sedai teen she-warriors, who don't even know how to weave their way out of trouble with the Mistress of Novices, much less, how to handle To'raken carrying battle-hardened warriors and Damane.

 

Well, that was obviously over a month ago, so in addidtion to all that "Hands on" battle experience and training, they have had time (30 days) to hone their skills. Now those Novices will be ready to really kick some Seanchan ass.

 

What more could we want or need. Besides it will be much better smack down of the Seanchan if they get their asses kicked by a bunch of WT Novices.

 

I dunno what you want or need. But, I don't think the Ever Victorious Army of the Seanchan Empire earned their name and reputation for spending a mere month in training heh heh...

 

In addition to all of the above, this is an army that not even the Dragon Reborn could fend off and yet, you think a few teen age Aes Sedai apprentices will defeat?

 

Well, good luck with that! :-D

[RyanDuranGeiger]

eh Yeah! They fought back and were not taken! Even if it was a limited victory, it was actual combat training.

 

They were "in the trenches" together and not only that, but they saw her take solid leadership. It gave them backbone! Next time they will be ready to fight. They will be more ready than the full AS, in many cases.

 

 

Novices don't learn weaves anywhere near what Egwene was using, and would likely burn themselves out, or destroy part of the tower if they tried.

 

You don't join the military, go to combat after a mere month (It takes longer for most novices to learn to flicker a stone, in case you forgot) and expect to fight off a full on invasion, led by some of the best generals in the world.. Especially if they have thousands of Damane and Sul'dam (Who have been honing their skills at death and destruction since their late teens/early twenties), Blood Knives, Gardeners, Raken/To'Raken, ect. . who can now pop out of thin air.

 

Even dropping in some Lopar and Grolm's first, to disrupt the Aes Sedai would also likely prove to be overly efficient.. The sight of monsters popping out of the air, would likely cause most Novices/Accepted (And knowing Aes Sedai, with their serene peace and feeling their no emotions, would too..) to release the source, giving the solders/Damane/Sul'dam time to collar them..

 

 

Aes Sedai don't really know anything besides lightning bolts and fireballs.. The Damane/Sul'dam will wipe the floor with them, even with circles.. Circles will get the Aes Sedai killed, with soldiers and Damane flying in through gateways, you don't want your channelers to be unable to react to a situation when swarmed, they'll all die because the person leading the circle isn't looking behind her (ACoD, chapter 36), the Damane will just peck off the Aes Sedai while the person melding the flows is busy.. And if they aren't in circles, they'll still be stuck between the hammer and the anvil..

Even with a month of training, you're screwed.. A decent example is that in Vietnam, Navy SEAL's killed 200 Viet Cong for every Navy SEAL they killed..

The Navy SEAL's (The super trained Bloodknives, Damane, Ogiers, ect..) will have no difficulty fighting off the Aes Sedai (Viet Cong, even in their own territory) while they're running around like chickens with their head cut off..

 

"Worst" case for the Aes Sedai, they get collared and the Seanchan use them in the Last Battle (More proficiently than they would be, I might add.).

Probably could've made use for the Black Ajah, too..

 

 

If Egwene were to get away with another victory, without shaking her world to the point of utter destruction, it will ruin the final book for me..

 

Well, there's the end of my rant..

 

 

 

 

On a side note, why don't the Aes Sedai ever send a group of the sisters up in lots of wards/protective weaves, send them out into the battle field (using mainly protective weaves), since their life is in danger, the rest of the Aes Sedai can use full force until they're all dead.. Then repeat. (And most likely get the first strike, if used properly..)

 

Could also get a group of Aes Sedai (Or even just one Aes Sedai..) to bond a ton of men/soliders/women, using a bond that doesn't cause you to feel emotions that strongly.. Still their warders, no matter how "weak" the bond is, then all the Aes Sedai can fight.. Effectively removing one of the three oaths in combat.. They could fight in combat without being fearing their own lives, while allowing their armies to be more effective (They're warders.).

[Mr Ares]

You say that for every channeler they capture (or find within their realm), they get a damane. I disagree. The way I see it, for every 2 female channelers that come to the Seanchan they get only one (effective) channeler. Because it takes two female Seanchan channelers to create one channeling set.

You're wrong. For every female channeler who gets captured, the Seanchan gain a damane. They won't use marath'damane as sul'dam. They already have more sul'dam than damane. Any potentials who are captured are just ordinary prisoners of war, their latent ability to channel a non-factor to either sides channeler numbers. If they can be held by the a'dam, they become damane. If they can't, then they're just a normal prisoner.

 

As you said above, every channeler that the Seanchan capture, they gain a channeler. Well, that same technique can be used going the other way, and it has been already. Assorted Randland forces have captured both sul'dam and damaine that are currently being converted. They have not actively started perusing this action but logically they should soon.

Slight problem with that. If you capture a marath'damane, you put the a'dam on her, and then have a sul'dam train her. As you already have many more sul'dam than damane, this does nothing to reduce the number of channelers you have. If you capture a damane, you then have to shield her, to make sure she doesn't hurt herself or someone else with the OP, in a effort to prove that she is dangerous and needs to be leashed. Thus every damane you capture also reduces the number of channelers you have available. That is, unless you simply use them as damane, a'dam and all.

 

The Seanchan don't have the Fox-head medallion. Once Elayne figures out how to reproduce it 100% then the Seanchan lose.

If they start mass producing foxheads, then you increase the chances of one falling into Seanchan hands. If one does, then they can copy it themselves. Also, the enemy having lots of foxheads doesn't guarantee failure. It just limits the offensive uses of the Power against them - lightning will still kill someone wearing a foxhead, for example.

 

 

Rand will not fight Seanchan. Fighting is not the key. But there are hints in previous books about how to fight the Seanchan adam. Tuon told Mat that even if she can channel, it does not matter because she does not want to. Greed is the key word. The adam only works on those woman who are greedy for power. LTT and Forsakens knew about this adam as domination band. It would be hard, but I believe Rand would teach AS and other channelers how to get rid of their greed.

The a'dam works on any woman who can channel. Learners cannot be controlled with it unless they start learning, or have worked extensively with it, thus being on the verge of touching the Source themselves. It doesn't matter how little greed you have, if you can channel you can be held.

[Suttree]

Those damaine that are too brainwashed to convert, can still be used by the Randlanders, but unlike the Seanchan, they can be paired up with weak (controlling) channelers to maximize the value of the A'dam.

 

Uhhmm except for the little fact that Randlanders wouldn't be using them for warfare, they would be trying to rehabilitate these woman and rightfully so. This means the A'dam would be taken off the damane and a another randlander channeler would be needed to shield them.

 

 

Rand will not fight Seanchan. Fighting is not the key. But there are hints in previous books about how to fight the Seanchan adam. Tuon told Mat that even if she can channel, it does not matter because she does not want to. Greed is the key word. The adam only works on those woman who are greedy for power. LTT and Forsakens knew about this adam as domination band. It would be hard, but I believe Rand would teach AS and other channelers how to get rid of their greed.

 

WHAT?!?! Dude seriously study up a little on how the a'dam works before you start posting...

[Erunion]

Right now, as I said earlier and as I will say again, if the Seanchan attack the White Tower in force and with surprise, the White Tower is doomed. The White Tower needs a Deus Ex Machina ASAP in order to survive. The Aes Sedai simply aren't ready for a major Seanchan attack, unless they've spent the last month training extensively behind the scenes, while organizing small, mutually supported circles and distributing their Angreal and Sa'angreal.

In order to win, the Aes Sedai would need to split up into groups of for 6-8, composed of two circles in order to cover the flanks. They would shield any Damane they come across, then dislodge not the collar, but the bracelet leaving the Damane in place. Then tie off some weaves to make the bracelet impossible to open, and you'll be able to run through the halls taking out Damane and slaughtering the Seanchan.

Unfortunately for them, I doubt the Aes Sedai are smart enough to have organized anything like this, or even anything at all. They are far too complacent.

In the end, Egwene will probably have to be saved by a Ta'veren ex Machina. Again.

[babuada]

Those damaine that are too brainwashed to convert, can still be used by the Randlanders, but unlike the Seanchan, they can be paired up with weak (controlling) channelers to maximize the value of the A'dam.

 

Uhhmm except for the little fact that Randlanders wouldn't be using them for warfare, they would be trying to rehabilitate these woman and rightfully so. This means the A'dam would be taken off the damane and a another randlander channeler would be needed to shield them.

 

 

Rand will not fight Seanchan. Fighting is not the key. But there are hints in previous books about how to fight the Seanchan adam. Tuon told Mat that even if she can channel, it does not matter because she does not want to. Greed is the key word. The adam only works on those woman who are greedy for power. LTT and Forsakens knew about this adam as domination band. It would be hard, but I believe Rand would teach AS and other channelers how to get rid of their greed.

 

WHAT?!?! Dude seriously study up a little on how the a'dam works before you start posting...

I did my study. Question is did you?

[babuada]

You say that for every channeler they capture (or find within their realm), they get a damane. I disagree. The way I see it, for every 2 female channelers that come to the Seanchan they get only one (effective) channeler. Because it takes two female Seanchan channelers to create one channeling set.

You're wrong. For every female channeler who gets captured, the Seanchan gain a damane. They won't use marath'damane as sul'dam. They already have more sul'dam than damane. Any potentials who are captured are just ordinary prisoners of war, their latent ability to channel a non-factor to either sides channeler numbers. If they can be held by the a'dam, they become damane. If they can't, then they're just a normal prisoner.

 

As you said above, every channeler that the Seanchan capture, they gain a channeler. Well, that same technique can be used going the other way, and it has been already. Assorted Randland forces have captured both sul'dam and damaine that are currently being converted. They have not actively started perusing this action but logically they should soon.

Slight problem with that. If you capture a marath'damane, you put the a'dam on her, and then have a sul'dam train her. As you already have many more sul'dam than damane, this does nothing to reduce the number of channelers you have. If you capture a damane, you then have to shield her, to make sure she doesn't hurt herself or someone else with the OP, in a effort to prove that she is dangerous and needs to be leashed. Thus every damane you capture also reduces the number of channelers you have available. That is, unless you simply use them as damane, a'dam and all.

 

The Seanchan don't have the Fox-head medallion. Once Elayne figures out how to reproduce it 100% then the Seanchan lose.

If they start mass producing foxheads, then you increase the chances of one falling into Seanchan hands. If one does, then they can copy it themselves. Also, the enemy having lots of foxheads doesn't guarantee failure. It just limits the offensive uses of the Power against them - lightning will still kill someone wearing a foxhead, for example.

 

 

Rand will not fight Seanchan. Fighting is not the key. But there are hints in previous books about how to fight the Seanchan adam. Tuon told Mat that even if she can channel, it does not matter because she does not want to. Greed is the key word. The adam only works on those woman who are greedy for power. LTT and Forsakens knew about this adam as domination band. It would be hard, but I believe Rand would teach AS and other channelers how to get rid of their greed.

The a'dam works on any woman who can channel. Learners cannot be controlled with it unless they start learning, or have worked extensively with it, thus being on the verge of touching the Source themselves. It doesn't matter how little greed you have, if you can channel you can be held.

Yes. They start channelling and the greed for power catches up. Tuon can channel if she wants, but she won't because she does not want to. Thus she cannot be collared. It is her words to Mat. So, again, greed is the key. And Rand will teach how to overcome the greed.

[Suttree]

Those damaine that are too brainwashed to convert, can still be used by the Randlanders, but unlike the Seanchan, they can be paired up with weak (controlling) channelers to maximize the value of the A'dam.

 

Uhhmm except for the little fact that Randlanders wouldn't be using them for warfare, they would be trying to rehabilitate these woman and rightfully so. This means the A'dam would be taken off the damane and a another randlander channeler would be needed to shield them.

 

 

Rand will not fight Seanchan. Fighting is not the key. But there are hints in previous books about how to fight the Seanchan adam. Tuon told Mat that even if she can channel, it does not matter because she does not want to. Greed is the key word. The adam only works on those woman who are greedy for power. LTT and Forsakens knew about this adam as domination band. It would be hard, but I believe Rand would teach AS and other channelers how to get rid of their greed.

 

WHAT?!?! Dude seriously study up a little on how the a'dam works before you start posting...

I did my study. Question is did you?

 

If that is the case please provide quotes on the correlation between greed and the A'dam device. I'll save you some time though... there are none. Tuon is what is called a "learner". Can't believe I even have to write this but an A'dam works on any woman who can channel regardless of greed. The only difference is Damane have the "spark" while sul'dam are "learners". Once they have worked long enough with a Damane and are close to touching the source they are also able to be held by an A'dam. This is WoT canon, there is no argument. It has been a very long time since we have had a truly awesome crazy theory though, so by all means prove us wrong.

[babuada]

This is WoT canon, there is no argument. It has been a very long time since we have had a truly awesome crazy theory though, so by all means prove us wrong.

Wow. Is there a quote from creator (RJ) stating that? I know Tuon cannot be collared is directly from quote of RJ. And Tuon said to Mat exactly what I told above about not wanting. I'll give her quote if you cannot trace it (probably in book 11).

[Darth Krewl]

So, again, greed is the key. And Rand will teach how to overcome the greed.

 

Where do you get that greed's the key to the A'dam working or not? Any female channeler who gets leashed is forced to do the Sul'dam's bidding or gets punished through the A'dam. Every single one of them, regardless of personality traits. Besides, the Dragon Reborn is prophesied to fight the Dark One, not to teach anyone anything and the key to the whole thing is balance through unity and belief. Greed has got nothing to do with anything.

[blazetheearth]

You say that for every channeler they capture (or find within their realm), they get a damane. I disagree. The way I see it, for every 2 female channelers that come to the Seanchan they get only one (effective) channeler. Because it takes two female Seanchan channelers to create one channeling set.

You're wrong. For every female channeler who gets captured, the Seanchan gain a damane. They won't use marath'damane as sul'dam. They already have more sul'dam than damane. Any potentials who are captured are just ordinary prisoners of war, their latent ability to channel a non-factor to either sides channeler numbers. If they can be held by the a'dam, they become damane. If they can't, then they're just a normal prisoner.

 

As you said above, every channeler that the Seanchan capture, they gain a channeler. Well, that same technique can be used going the other way, and it has been already. Assorted Randland forces have captured both sul'dam and damaine that are currently being converted. They have not actively started perusing this action but logically they should soon.

Slight problem with that. If you capture a marath'damane, you put the a'dam on her, and then have a sul'dam train her. As you already have many more sul'dam than damane, this does nothing to reduce the number of channelers you have. If you capture a damane, you then have to shield her, to make sure she doesn't hurt herself or someone else with the OP, in a effort to prove that she is dangerous and needs to be leashed. Thus every damane you capture also reduces the number of channelers you have available. That is, unless you simply use them as damane, a'dam and all.

 

The Seanchan don't have the Fox-head medallion. Once Elayne figures out how to reproduce it 100% then the Seanchan lose.

If they start mass producing foxheads, then you increase the chances of one falling into Seanchan hands. If one does, then they can copy it themselves. Also, the enemy having lots of foxheads doesn't guarantee failure. It just limits the offensive uses of the Power against them - lightning will still kill someone wearing a foxhead, for example.

 

The a'dam works on every woman who can channel, but does not work on those that can learn to channel.

 

 

Rand will not fight Seanchan. Fighting is not the key. But there are hints in previous books about how to fight the Seanchan adam. Tuon told Mat that even if she can channel, it does not matter because she does not want to. Greed is the key word. The adam only works on those woman who are greedy for power. LTT and Forsakens knew about this adam as domination band. It would be hard, but I believe Rand would teach AS and other channelers how to get rid of their greed.

The a'dam works on any woman who can channel. Learners cannot be controlled with it unless they start learning, or have worked extensively with it, thus being on the verge of touching the Source themselves. It doesn't matter how little greed you have, if you can channel you can be held.

Yes. They start channelling and the greed for power catches up. Tuon can channel if she wants, but she won't because she does not want to. Thus she cannot be collared. It is her words to Mat. So, again, greed is the key. And Rand will teach how to overcome the greed.

 

the damane are sparkers not learners. Their choice is channel or die. I don't see much greed in that. But the greed you seem to be referring to is a few hundred years in the past. Most sul'dam now do not perform their jobs out of greed for power, and of those of the Blood that own damane, very few actually gain power from owning them. It's more like, if you are a millionaire, then it's natural for your place in society to have a nice car, or if you own a dog, socially it is more acceptable to own pure breed than a mutt since you have the money to get a pure breed. Read the PoV's from sul'dam's again. Bethamin never once came across as greedy, except of wanting to live without the collar on herself. The a'dam was created, not because of greed, but because they were looking for a way to protect their own armies from the AoN that Luthair was fighting at the time. The Armies of Night were led by women channelers (who called themselves Aes Sedai), when an AS (AoN AS not WT AS), Deain by name, turned traitor and brought Luthair the first a'dam. [i[she[/i] was greedy and was hoping for an honored place among his advisers for this, and was truly shocked when she herself was leased by her own invention. The Seanchan view all channelers as dangerous animals, the male must be put down, but the female can be controlled and harnessed, not for personal power but for safety of all the citizens. For 2000 years the AS had been petty dictators of the continent of Seanchan. These people used the OP as weapons and on whims to kill, maim, and torture if their rule was objected to. Each and everyone of them seems to have been as bad as Hitler or Mussolini, which left Luthair's army with a quandry. Their best option was to capture (via a'dam) and then later use (via sul'dam) the AS's own OP against them. If there were no such thing as sparkers then it is possible that usage of the a'dam might have died out. But as the Seanchan see it, every sparker must be caught in order to keep the rest of the populace safe, NOT out of a greed for power. Yes, it might have been more humane to simply kill them, but any general will tell you that it is stupid to throw away a weapon just because the alternative is less humane (ie: Serin Gas, any bio-weapon, etc.).

 

Since you insist on believing greed is the motivating factor in the whole sul'dam/damane situation, please provide quotes about it. I would really like to see where it is said in the books that greed for power is in any way associated with sul'dam. If you can provide the quotes to back up this belief, then I will change sides and support you fully, but until then it comes across as though you are imposing your own sense of morality on others. Looking at the results and "assuming" that since "y" represents the ends, then the motivation must be "x". And everyone know about the word "assume".

 

Suroth was driven by greed, but she was also a DF, and we have been told by RJ that greed has always been a major motivational factor to DF's. But you don't seem to be referring to her being greedy instead it seems that you are saying "If a woman becomes sul'dam (or owns damane) it is out of a greed for power. And that is completely untrue, look at Egenain. She owned a damane, but not for power. She wanted one to produce skylights, and was happy that the damane could take being on a ship. I would compare this to buying a dog to run a generator to power a TV. Purchased for entertainment value, not greed for power.

 

If you can't back up the argument with quotes, then it is no wonder that you have people, that normally argue over almost every post, coming together to say you are wrong.

 

The AS (WT this time) exhibit a MUCH larger greed for power than any Seanchan channeler. After all, until the new reforms, the only way to become AS was if you wanted the title AS enough to travel to Tar Valon to be tested. Only someone who was interested in the title AS and the accompanying power went there to become AS, compared to Seanchan where if you could spark you are made damane and if you could learn you become sul'dam. The WT has spent 3000 years letting sparkers die through out Randland while only bringing those that craved the title (and power). Which institution is driven more by greed?

 

As far as Toun goes, she is not a sparker, and so does not have to be collared. And since she is a learner she will not die from not learning. She said she "choose not to learn, and that makes all the difference, Toy." But she did choose to become sul'dam trained. Obviously not for power, why would the DotNM need more power by controlling a damane directly instead of telling the sul'dam sworn to her what she wants. I don't see greed for power in her motivation at all, but she still put on the bracelet and trained damane just like any sul'dam.She cannot channel if she wants to, she can LEARN to channel if she chose. That is why the a'dam will not hold her. Because she has not spent enough years as sul'dam, and she chooses not to LEARN.The a'dam works on any woman that can channel, but it will not work on those who can learn to channel.

[MattTaz]

Do you think BS made a big mistake with Avi's future vision. I mean even though the Seanchan takeover, the WT, BT, Caemlyn all exist after the LB.

I was kinda hoping that Elaida's Fortelling that the WT would be stronger than ever applies now and that the next book could

have Eg & Gawyn dying and the WT being destroyed. Being the beginning of a New Age I was hoping maybe the Kin moving in with Logain

and although being under Elayne's control this is how Logain becomes such a powerhouse as Min thought.

Too much hey :)

[babuada]

the damane are sparkers not learners. Their choice is channel or die

It is not channel or die. It is channel and die. They die because they cannot control (their greed for power). The way to power as stated trhoughout from book one as per saidar goes is greed. It is the greed that grows with every touch and makes you more vulnerable. It is the greed that is used by a'dam. It is the greed that is used by 13x13. Now is there a better way to channel like instead of wanting you can just let it flow as an when pattern wishes. It was never stated as per my knowledge but I believe there is a way. My belief is stronger looking at Rand now. We'll know in AMoL.

[babuada]

That is why the a'dam will not hold her. Because she has not spent enough years as sul'dam, and she chooses not to LEARN

When did Bethamine and Seta got to learn? They were just Suldam and still were collared because they gave in to the greed. It is inherent to the way channelers reach for power. I believe there is a better way where channellers will not want it but still can use it when available. Tuon's did in KoD shows exactly that.

[Suttree]

the damane are sparkers not learners. Their choice is channel or die

It is not channel or die. It is channel and die. They die because they cannot control (their greed for power). The way to power as stated trhoughout from book one as per saidar goes is greed. It is the greed that grows with every touch and makes you more vulnerable. It is the greed that is used by a'dam. It is the greed that is used by 13x13. Now is there a better way to channel like instead of wanting you can just let it flow as an when pattern wishes. It was never stated as per my knowledge but I believe there is a way. My belief is stronger looking at Rand now. We'll know in AMoL.

 

Actually it is channel or die for those born with the spark. Read up on it in the link below...nice bit there about those born with the spark in Seanchan which might clear up the A'dam issue for you as well.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Spark

[capuga]

That is why the a'dam will not hold her. Because she has not spent enough years as sul'dam, and she chooses not to LEARN

When did Bethamine and Seta got to learn? They were just Suldam and still were collared because they gave in to the greed. It is inherent to the way channelers reach for power. I believe there is a better way where channellers will not want it but still can use it when available. Tuon's did in KoD shows exactly that.

 

Bethamine and Seta did not give in to "greed". They are collared because they have been working with the damane so long that they are on the verge of channeling. When they (and any other sul'dam we see who get collared) learn that they can channel they are absolutely horrified and do their best to deny that they can channel. But somehow they are "greedy"? Do they suddenly go out and use this new found ability to get whatever they want? Or do they cry and beg and plead that it must be a mistake. I'm not good at looking up quotes but someone who is can provide the one where RJ talks about why certain sul'dam can be held and why Tuon cannot (because she has not worked as a sul'dam long enough). I, like everyone else on this thread, am a bit incredulous that this would even be necessary because none of what we are saying is in any dispute what-so-ever.

[babuada]

Actually it is channel or die for those born with the spark. Read up on it in the link below...nice bit there about those born with the spark in Seanchan which might clear up the A'dam issue for you as well.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Spark

From your wiki. "control must be learned or death is inevitable" So, it is not the "NOT Channeling" that causes death. It is the lack of control.

[babuada]

This point of want to access power is there from book one. That is how you access saidar. Also 13x13 uses this same aspect. Seems like this is a faulty way. So, there must be a correct way of accessing power without the greed.

[blazetheearth]

the damane are sparkers not learners. Their choice is channel or die

It is not channel or die. It is channel and die. They die because they cannot control (their greed for power). The way to power as stated trhoughout from book one as per saidar goes is greed. It is the greed that grows with every touch and makes you more vulnerable. It is the greed that is used by a'dam. It is the greed that is used by 13x13. Now is there a better way to channel like instead of wanting you can just let it flow as an when pattern wishes. It was never stated as per my knowledge but I believe there is a way. My belief is stronger looking at Rand now. We'll know in AMoL.

 

You are right, I phrased that wrong. Instead of "channel or die", I should have said that sparkers will channel. Period. Sparkers cannot decide not to channel anymore than we can control what color eyes children are born with. Sparkers will channel. their choice is learn control (different from learning to channel the OP) over how and what they channel or they die from it. Again it's not about greed for power.

 

This point of want to access power is there from book one. That is how you access saidar. Also 13x13 uses this same aspect. Seems like this is a faulty way. So, there must be a correct way of accessing power without the greed.

Channeling saidar requires surrender already, not grabbing for it. It is describes all through out the series that women "open themselves to saidar and let it flow into them." I cannot see surrendering to something as being greedy for it.

Women do not grab the OP in a greedy way, so I don't know what you mean by there being a better way to channel. Just "letting it flow" into themselves is what women do with Saidar now. That is why "surrender" is such a big part of why Nyn was blocked. She was not able to surrender to Saidar. To trust it and open herself up to it. Once they allow it to enter themselves they have the choice of releasing the Source, or using it. If they release it immediately, what would be the point of opening yourself up to it in the first place. The Pattern will not decide what weaves are formed, that has to be up to the channeler. So instead they use it. Now men have to reach out and grab Saidin, which I suppose some could interpret as greed, but that only applies to men. That is part of the major difference between the male and female halves of the OP. Saidar needs surrender, Saidin requires forcing. There is no way to change either one.

 

What part of ToM (what paragraph/phrase/sentence) leads you to think that there is a new way to channel? I might have missed it in my first 3 readings, and I'd like to be able to look it up.

[Mr Ares]

Right now, as I said earlier and as I will say again, if the Seanchan attack the White Tower in force and with surprise, the White Tower is doomed.

Perhaps, but I can think of an amusing alternative that doesn't require deus ex machina: the attack comes when all the AS are out of the WT, gathered at the FoM.

 

Rand will not fight Seanchan. Fighting is not the key. But there are hints in previous books about how to fight the Seanchan adam. Tuon told Mat that even if she can channel, it does not matter because she does not want to. Greed is the key word. The adam only works on those woman who are greedy for power. LTT and Forsakens knew about this adam as domination band. It would be hard, but I believe Rand would teach AS and other channelers how to get rid of their greed.

The a'dam works on any woman who can channel. Learners cannot be controlled with it unless they start learning, or have worked extensively with it, thus being on the verge of touching the Source themselves. It doesn't matter how little greed you have, if you can channel you can be held.

Yes. They start channelling and the greed for power catches up. Tuon can channel if she wants, but she won't because she does not want to. Thus she cannot be collared. It is her words to Mat. So, again, greed is the key. And Rand will teach how to overcome the greed.

No, it is not her words to Mat. That is not at all what she said. How did Rand escape the Domination Band? Did he stop being greedy? No, he used the TP. The a'dam will hold any woman who can channel. Someone who can learn will not be held unless they are on the verge of touching the TS. To the Seanchan, touching the Source makes you an animal. Some have no choice, but are still animals. Others might have a choice, in which case by refusing to touch it they are refusing to become animals. Tuon is one who can refuse, and is doing so. Greed has nothing to do with it, and there is no evidence anywhere in the books to support that an a'dam will only hold you if you are greedy, quite the reverse. If you would like to say different, please provide quotes.