The White Tower - Seanchan Attack

[capuga]

amazing how some people are relishing over the prospect of the those slave thugs from seandar attacking the white tower. The same people who keep banging about the need for co=operation amongst all light forces to aid rand al thor in his quest to save the world.

 

Ah well more power to them. Hopefully this time, those slave owners get smashed up for good this time.

 

Ah, another Aes Sedai apologist has climbed aboard. Welcome aboard.

 

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

 

You don't have to be an Aes Sedai apologist to dislike the Seanchan. In fact, I don't like the White Tower much at all. I feel the Aes Sedai are mostly a failure at everything they could and should be doing for the world. However, there are plenty of reasons to dislike the Seanchan all by themselves even apart from the horrific damane and slavery situations. Namely, the Seanchan are just as assured of their own superiority and right to lead as the Aes Sedai that they make plans that are divisive to the Light's causes instead of trying to compromise with Rand and the other lands in order to present a unified front at the Last Battle.

[gambril]

 

Ah, another Aes Sedai apologist has climbed aboard. Welcome aboard.

 

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

 

You are taking a fictional story way too seriously.

 

Kinda befuddled why you decide to attack me but I'll take the bait.

 

I think people read fiction and fantasy such as this to see people grow, learn, evolve and overcome in the face of the impossible - things that I think all of us would like to be able to say about ourselves that we would have the fortitude to do the same in their situation. At least, this is the greatest appeal to me in fantasy.

 

It has nothing to do with taking it seriously - cue me rolling my eyes when I said that, yes? It's a matter of not comprehending the story you're reading.

[gambril]

amazing how some people are relishing over the prospect of the those slave thugs from seandar attacking the white tower. The same people who keep banging about the need for co=operation amongst all light forces to aid rand al thor in his quest to save the world.

 

Ah well more power to them. Hopefully this time, those slave owners get smashed up for good this time.

 

Ah, another Aes Sedai apologist has climbed aboard. Welcome aboard.

 

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

 

You don't have to be an Aes Sedai apologist to dislike the Seanchan. In fact, I don't like the White Tower much at all. I feel the Aes Sedai are mostly a failure at everything they could and should be doing for the world. However, there are plenty of reasons to dislike the Seanchan all by themselves even apart from the horrific damane and slavery situations. Namely, the Seanchan are just as assured of their own superiority and right to lead as the Aes Sedai that they make plans that are divisive to the Light's causes instead of trying to compromise with Rand and the other lands in order to present a unified front at the Last Battle.

 

Err I agree. What I mean by the term "Aes Sedai apologist" is that they will ignore everything you just said about the White Tower and their faults and lay the fault entirely at the feet of the Seanchan. Both sides are wrong. An "Aes Sedai apologist" just chooses to ignore the evidence they're presented with for whatever reason they justify to themselves.

[lordofsoup]

I could deal with the seanchan going to attack Tar Valon, but first making a stop at Caemlyn on the way, and running into the enormous horde of Trollocs that just attacked.

[capuga]

amazing how some people are relishing over the prospect of the those slave thugs from seandar attacking the white tower. The same people who keep banging about the need for co=operation amongst all light forces to aid rand al thor in his quest to save the world.

 

Ah well more power to them. Hopefully this time, those slave owners get smashed up for good this time.

 

Ah, another Aes Sedai apologist has climbed aboard. Welcome aboard.

 

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

 

You don't have to be an Aes Sedai apologist to dislike the Seanchan. In fact, I don't like the White Tower much at all. I feel the Aes Sedai are mostly a failure at everything they could and should be doing for the world. However, there are plenty of reasons to dislike the Seanchan all by themselves even apart from the horrific damane and slavery situations. Namely, the Seanchan are just as assured of their own superiority and right to lead as the Aes Sedai that they make plans that are divisive to the Light's causes instead of trying to compromise with Rand and the other lands in order to present a unified front at the Last Battle.

 

Err I agree. What I mean by the term "Aes Sedai apologist" is that they will ignore everything you just said about the White Tower and their faults and lay the fault entirely at the feet of the Seanchan. Both sides are wrong. An "Aes Sedai apologist" just chooses to ignore the evidence they're presented with for whatever reason they justify to themselves.

 

Yeah, kind of hard to pick who to root for here. Its like watching two teams you don't like playing in the Super Bowl - you don't really want either of them to have the glory of winning a championship.

 

I'd like to see the Aes Sedai forced to notice and acknowledge their shortcomings but I feel the same about the Seanchan and I hate that they treat a group of people as sub-human. I guess what I am hoping for is that both sides are forced to admit they have areas that are wrong and that they all work to compromise with Rand and the rest of the world to give the Light the strongest chance to win the Last Battle.

[Darth Krewl]

Yeah, kind of hard to pick who to root for here. Its like watching two teams you don't like playing in the Super Bowl - you don't really want either of them to have the glory of winning a championship.

 

I'd like to see the Aes Sedai forced to notice and acknowledge their shortcomings but I feel the same about the Seanchan and I hate that they treat a group of people as sub-human. I guess what I am hoping for is that both sides are forced to admit they have areas that are wrong and that they all work to compromise with Rand and the rest of the world to give the Light the strongest chance to win the Last Battle.

 

You may yet get your wish. I think the way things will go down is like this: Seanchan attack an unprepared White Tower, helping Egwene come back down from her lofty perch and realizing her mistakes. Then, Mat intervenes with Tuon and helps her realize the error of her ways (IMO, this is precisely the reason why Jordan wanted for these 2 to marry. Otherwise, that whole subplot wouldn't make any sense).

 

Tuon and Egwene get one last, little push from Rand to put their differences aside (at least for the time being) and come together to face the Last Battle. The question, IMO, would be if there's still enough time for the forces of the Light to get properly organized, because at this point I'd think it's clear they're far from doing just that and, when one thinks about it, it's the Aes Sedai and the Seanchan who are at the forefront of the main differences in the Randland at this point. So, for better or worse, that conflict needs to happen and be resolved so they can all move on to the really important conflict at hand.

[Elan Tedronai]

Randsc,

 

this is about the faults of the aes sedai versus the seanchan. No body brought the issue of men in this thread. You need to get over this war of genders BS. You seem to think anyone who defends egwene or the aes sedai is some psychotic nazi feminist. And for the record i am not female. Take your projection theories elsewhere.

 

anotherfingolfin,

 

Bicker and politics? Didn't egwene manage to gather alot of people in fields of merrilor? Has she not prepared so much so that the white tower itself is at the moment unprepared for an attack by the seanchan? You talk about positives. What positives can happen from seanchan collaring aes sedai? you tell me.

 

 

The white tower is reunited. It has a massive army. Black ajah has been purged and another useless forsaken has been taken down. Egwene has made a pact with the windfinders, the wise ones and the aiel to work together. The last battle is coming. We are going to have a massive conference in fields of merrilor. egewene has gathered many leaders to oppose rand's plans.

 

 

But no no no, aes sedai are bikering and playing politics. And we want the seanchan, the people who think they know best, the people who enslave any women who channel and kill any men who do to raze Tar valon to the ground. Yeah we should cheer them on and collar as many aes sedai as they can. Who cares about this notorious last battle which is due to happen any moment. Who cares about the shadowsspawn that are literally destroying poor elayne's homeland. No forget that. Those uppity women need to be taught a lesson. When they have learned their lesson then we can get lord matrim cauthon to ask his precious to let those marathdamane go.

 

And his precious being the nice gentle empress she is will no doubtly say 'oh my sweetie pie, ofcourse i will let them go. I am going to let go all these women who were collared in a fierce battle just a few hours ago.

[gambril]

Yeah, kind of hard to pick who to root for here. Its like watching two teams you don't like playing in the Super Bowl - you don't really want either of them to have the glory of winning a championship.

 

I'd like to see the Aes Sedai forced to notice and acknowledge their shortcomings but I feel the same about the Seanchan and I hate that they treat a group of people as sub-human. I guess what I am hoping for is that both sides are forced to admit they have areas that are wrong and that they all work to compromise with Rand and the rest of the world to give the Light the strongest chance to win the Last Battle.

 

You may yet get your wish. I think the way things will go down is like this: Seanchan attack an unprepared White Tower, helping Egwene come back down from her lofty perch and realizing her mistakes. Then, Mat intervenes with Tuon and helps her realize the error of her ways (IMO, this is precisely the reason why Jordan wanted for these 2 to marry. Otherwise, that whole subplot wouldn't make any sense).

 

Tuon and Egwene get one last, little push from Rand to put their differences aside (at least for the time being) and come together to face the Last Battle. The question, IMO, would be if there's still enough time for the forces of the Light to get properly organized, because at this point I'd think it's clear they're far from doing just that and, when one thinks about it, it's the Aes Sedai and the Seanchan who are at the forefront of the main differences in the Randland at this point. So, for better or worse, that conflict needs to happen and be resolved so they can all move on to the really important conflict at hand.

 

There's evidence I believe to support most of what you said.

 

#1 In TOM when Mat's in the Towers of Ghenjei and the Eelfinn that tears his eye out says, "And the gambler becomes the center of all. I can taste fate itself" blah blah blah.

 

#2 This ones a lot more vague and requires putting a bunch of things together but it's based on Min's viewing in some book (?) where she sees Elayne and a severed hand. There's always the possibility that I'm wrong but this severed hand is The Band of the Red Hand I believe. At the end of TOM the band is split in two. One part is with Elayne (ie the severed hand), the others with Talmanes in Caemlyn.

 

This is where it gets flunky. For this viewing of Min's to be true, Talmanes and the Band that's in Caemlyn, kinda has to fall. Cue the one eyed fool walking the Halls of Mourning prophecy we get at the end of TOM.

 

Here's why Talmanes and this part of the Band has to fall: Absent the Band in Caemlyn falling, Mat will reject any offers of being the Light's Supreme General. His response is simply, "I can't do it. My responsibility is to the Band" Well, Jordan will remove this 'problem' for Mat because Mat has to be the Supreme General of the Light, none of the Great Captains will stand a chance against Demandrad and subsequently the Light would lose. The Pattern just simply won't let this happen.

 

The remaining members of the Band will be Mat's presonal bodyguard the same as the Band was at the end of the Trolloc Wars for King Aemon before they fell.

 

Anyways, put those two viewings/prophecies together and you have Mat accepting the role of Supreme General of the Light and this includes the Seanchan's forces as well. Tuon and Rand already know Mat's the man when it comes to generalship so I don't think this is something they will disagree on :). It also gives us insight into why the 'gambler becomes the center of all'. I also think this is the reason Teslyn and Joline particurly were given light into the fact that yeah, if you want someone leading your forces, it's Matrim Cauthon. This will allow the Aes Sedai on their testomony, to wisely accept Mat as their General ;p.

 

Of course, outside #1 and #2 'prophecies/viewings' this is just all speculation. But I have always believed that Mat will be the Supreme General of the Light and the only General for the Light that has a chance against Demandrad on the field. The only other person who would stand a chance that you could argue would be Lews Therin I believe, but he has other things to be about - breaking the seals/facing Moridin/the Dark One. Just imagine how mad Demandrads going to be when it's not Rand that's facing him on the field/in battles like he'll want, but a gambler named Matrim Cauthon lol.

[randsc]

Randsc,

 

this is about the faults of the aes sedai versus the seanchan. No body brought the issue of men in this thread. You need to get over this war of genders BS. You seem to think anyone who defends egwene or the aes sedai is some psychotic nazi feminist. And for the record i am not female. Take your projection theories elsewhere.

 

 

You did. As you have done many, many times before.

 

At this point it is simply a need to teach those women at TAR VALON a lesson and glory to whomever does it even if it is Seanchan.

[moratcorlm]

In all fairness to the Wise Ones and Sea Folk channelers, they never pledged themselves to "serve all".

Neither did the Aes Sedai.

[randsc]

In all fairness to the Wise Ones and Sea Folk channelers, they never pledged themselves to "serve all".

Neither did the Aes Sedai.

Not in this Age. But they did in previous Ages.

[Elan Tedronai]

Randsc,

 

this is about the faults of the aes sedai versus the seanchan. No body brought the issue of men in this thread. You need to get over this war of genders BS. You seem to think anyone who defends egwene or the aes sedai is some psychotic nazi feminist. And for the record i am not female. Take your projection theories elsewhere.

 

 

You did. As you have done many, many times before.

 

At this point it is simply a need to teach those women at TAR VALON a lesson and glory to whomever does it even if it is Seanchan.

 

 

the aes sedai are women last i heard. And yes alot of posters want the aes sedai to be humbled, taught a lesson, learn their place etc take your pick.

[moratcorlm]

Not in this Age. But they did in previous Ages.

Sure. What bearing does that have on what the people now using that intellectual property do?

[gambril]

In all fairness to the Wise Ones and Sea Folk channelers, they never pledged themselves to "serve all".

Neither did the Aes Sedai.

 

*Scratches head in confusion* So you're saying that Aes Sedai don't claim to serve all? Does the name Aes Sedai not mean Servants of All?

 

I fail to understand that when you claim the title Aes Sedai you aren't claiming that you serve all. How is this wrong?

 

All that is pure sarcasm because the answers are quite obvious.

 

Seriously though, how can you say what you do? I picture your brain working like a railroad track that's missing (deliberately ignoring the pieces) the pieces to make the railroad track whole.

[wvlr2]

I personally agree that Egwene needs to be taken down a notch or three and the WT as a whole needs to be taken down about 3 to 5 notches.

 

The Egg has certianally done some things that irratate me. (like the Ny test), but as a whole it seems that she is trying to change some of the things that i do not like about the WT. If she could just see that some of those very things are things that she does wrong as well, it would be nice.

 

But to have the Seanchan be the one to take the Egg and the WT down those notches, would be even worse. Because the Seanchan need to be taken down about 90 notches.

 

Also, how people can think that egwene would not be having all her AS be training like TG has come is not understandable. Considering that Rand has given her 30 days until TG, AND since she knows that the Seanchan HATE the WT and have Traveling. She would have to be stupider that Elaida.

 

She should have all AS, Accepted & even Novices training for WAR. As far as she knows, even if the Seanchan do not attack, Rand could be breaking the seals in 1 month. She may be able to stop it, but she also knows that she might not. She also knows the pathetic showing that the WT put up in the first attack.

 

As much as i do not kile SOME things that she does, she has repeatedly shown that she consistently plans ahead. Given her history, why would anyone thing that she would not plann for these two very possable events?

[gambril]

I personally agree that Egwene needs to be taken down a notch or three and the WT as a whole needs to be taken down about 3 to 5 notches.

 

The Egg has certianally done some things that irratate me. (like the Ny test), but as a whole it seems that she is trying to change some of the things that i do not like about the WT. If she could just see that some of those very things are things that she does wrong as well, it would be nice.

 

But to have the Seanchan be the one to take the Egg and the WT down those notches, would be even worse. Because the Seanchan need to be taken down about 90 notches.

 

Also, how people can think that egwene would not be having all her AS be training like TG has come is not understandable. Considering that Rand has given her 30 days until TG, AND since she knows that the Seanchan HATE the WT and have Traveling. She would have to be stupider that Elaida.

 

She should have all AS, Accepted & even Novices training for WAR. As far as she knows, even if the Seanchan do not attack, Rand could be breaking the seals in 1 month. She may be able to stop it, but she also knows that she might not. She also knows the pathetic showing that the WT put up in the first attack.

 

As much as i do not kile SOME things that she does, she has repeatedly shown that she consistently plans ahead. Given her history, why would anyone thing that she would not plann for these two very possable events?

 

It's not a matter of planning for those events for Egwene really. It's a matter of the Hall planning for those events properly. Remember in TOM that Egwene gave up control of all these things you say because she wanted to be in charge of dealing with the Rulers of Randland.

 

Egwene can and probably has at the very least thought about the things you point out, but for any of it to happen will require the Hall to listen to her, none of which we were shown in TOM.

[wvlr2]

The problem is that we only saw maybe about 24 hrs of POV for the 30+ days that transpired in ToM. I think that it is more likely that some activity occured in those missing 29 days. That is only my guess, but to me it is more likely given the history, than nothing happening in that 29 days.

 

Now if Elaida was still in charge, I would have to agree with you.

 

I do not think that there is anything in the actual ToM text that will prove it either way. So I guess that we will just have to wait & see. But to me it would go against everything i have seen about Egwene's personality to do that.

 

Also, she placed the Hall in charge of the Armies. That is not the same as placing them in charge of preparing the AS, Accepted & Novices. Those are two different things. The AS do not consider themselved as an Army - they are AS.

[Yates_]

I am no fan of the Aes Sedai, and I certainly think that Egwene has gotten obnoxious. She needs to learn that she is not always right. Nynaeve and Rand are the only Aes Sedai who have evidenced that they have learned the propper path. It is as the Wise Ones do to Avi in Gathering Storm. An Aes Sedai must have the strength of will to advocate their beliefs, while also knowing when to accede to greater wisdom.

 

The Aes Sedai haven't learned that they can be mistaken. In Rand they are about to meet someone far stronger and more skilled in the power.

 

My problem with the Seanchan is almost entirely due to their notions' of class and slavery. It is not only that they actively condone slavery, it is whom they enslave. No, not women.

 

Weapons of Mass Destruction.

 

The Seanchan have based their entire power structure on leashing channelers, so that they can easily control their territory. When they have a massive numerical superiority when it comes to these super weapons, of course they can control an empire. Without channelers, and the fear they inspire, a low tech empire of that size is unsustainable. How could any revolt succeed when the opposition can use lightning, blow up the ground, or whatever vs mideviel tech. Given how bad the Aes Sedai (who never traveled there like someone earlier said, they were there when the breaking occurred) were, it was understandable. But whatever noble intentions they began with have morphed into harnessing a weapon of oppression.

 

Say what you will against the WT, but they did swear not to use their power as weapons. The Seachan actively use these weapons.

 

The Seanchan are the Dark One's back up plans. The FOL have to play every card to win this Age's Last Battle. The Seanchan were nurtured and manipulated by Ishamael so that IF the FOL wins this round, the Seanchan will be arround to muck up the world so bad that the next Age loses its Last Battle. The Seanchan will scourge the Male Channelers, since they have no effective means of controling them. They will hunt down the next Dragon and kill him. Even if he survives, the Seanchan are the type who will whitewash history to stifle prophecy or mention of the Dragon. He won't have any teachers in the Power when he comes again, and will face a political strutcure that will ignore him unto death.

 

And the Dark One wins again.

 

I don't like the Aes Sedai, nor really most of the female channelers (I am a male). They have interferred with the 3 highly likeable leads of the story, so that annoys me. But the Seanchan are on the Dark One's side, albeit unknowingly and unwittingly. If they are not outright evil, they are certainly evil adjacent.

 

This isn't a choice of lesser evils, or even between two unlikeable forces. This is a choice between an overbearing, but well meaning, Older-Sister type person, and a near sociopath who manages to present a very likeable visage to the world while pursuing a course of action that leads to disaster.

[capuga]

I personally agree that Egwene needs to be taken down a notch or three and the WT as a whole needs to be taken down about 3 to 5 notches.

 

The Egg has certianally done some things that irratate me. (like the Ny test), but as a whole it seems that she is trying to change some of the things that i do not like about the WT. If she could just see that some of those very things are things that she does wrong as well, it would be nice.

 

But to have the Seanchan be the one to take the Egg and the WT down those notches, would be even worse. Because the Seanchan need to be taken down about 90 notches.

 

Also, how people can think that egwene would not be having all her AS be training like TG has come is not understandable. Considering that Rand has given her 30 days until TG, AND since she knows that the Seanchan HATE the WT and have Traveling. She would have to be stupider that Elaida.

 

She should have all AS, Accepted & even Novices training for WAR. As far as she knows, even if the Seanchan do not attack, Rand could be breaking the seals in 1 month. She may be able to stop it, but she also knows that she might not. She also knows the pathetic showing that the WT put up in the first attack.

 

As much as i do not kile SOME things that she does, she has repeatedly shown that she consistently plans ahead. Given her history, why would anyone thing that she would not plann for these two very possable events?

 

Because we don't have any evidence from the books that she is making these preparations. We don't see Aes Sedai training for war or gearing up their defenses for a Seanchan attack. We haven't seen that she has taught anyone the trick Nynaeve figured out in tGH to use a flick of air to open an a'dam.

 

It is certainly possible that these things are going on because there is plenty of time during the month between Rand's visit and the FoM that we don't see, but we don't have any actual evidence that that is the case.

[moratcorlm]

In all fairness to the Wise Ones and Sea Folk channelers, they never pledged themselves to "serve all".

Neither did the Aes Sedai.

 

*Scratches head in confusion* So you're saying that Aes Sedai don't claim to serve all? Does the name Aes Sedai not mean Servants of All?

 

I fail to understand that when you claim the title Aes Sedai you aren't claiming that you serve all. How is this wrong?

“Gai’shain? How does that translate? ‘Those sworn to peace in battle’?”

 

“They are simply gai’shain,” Amys said.

They do not use the name "Servants of All". They use the name "Aes Sedai", which can be translated as 'servants of all', but in practice never is. Are Cairhienin "Golden-Dawners"? No, they're Cairhienin. Are Aiel "Dedicated", or just Aiel? The name has lost meaning and simply become a name. They retain the name because it connects them to an ancient and glorious history, but it does not make them a part of that history.

 

Moreover, regardless of etymology, the claim that they do not "pledge themselves to 'serve all'" is simply true. There is no such pledge.

[moratcorlm]

The problem is that we only saw maybe about 24 hrs of POV for the 30+ days that transpired in ToM.

For whom? Egwene has about two missing weeks; she's on-screen for more than ten days in TOM.

[Darth Krewl]

In all fairness to the Wise Ones and Sea Folk channelers, they never pledged themselves to "serve all".

Neither did the Aes Sedai.

 

lol...They didn't?

 

Well, in that case, maybe they should consider changing the official name of their order, 'cause last I heard, the words Aes Sedai are Old Tongue for Servants of all. We are all perceived as what we claim to be. That's human nature at its most basic core.

[moratcorlm]

Does that make you an evil magician? Does it make me an ostrich tamer? Read my reply to gambril above, particularly the quotation from TSR.

[gambril]

In all fairness to the Wise Ones and Sea Folk channelers, they never pledged themselves to "serve all".

Neither did the Aes Sedai.

 

*Scratches head in confusion* So you're saying that Aes Sedai don't claim to serve all? Does the name Aes Sedai not mean Servants of All?

 

I fail to understand that when you claim the title Aes Sedai you aren't claiming that you serve all. How is this wrong?

“Gai’shain? How does that translate? ‘Those sworn to peace in battle’?”

 

“They are simply gai’shain,” Amys said.

They do not use the name "Servants of All". They use the name "Aes Sedai", which can be translated as 'servants of all', but in practice never is. Are Cairhienin "Golden-Dawners"? No, they're Cairhienin. Are Aiel "Dedicated", or just Aiel? The name has lost meaning and simply become a name. They retain the name because it connects them to an ancient and glorious history, but it does not make them a part of that history.

 

Moreover, regardless of etymology, the claim that they do not "pledge themselves to 'serve all'" is simply true. There is no such pledge.

 

The only correction to the part in bold I would make is, "which is translated as 'servants of all'". Words change over time, true. One of those reasons words change over time though is that people translate it into what they want the word to mean and not what it meant, thus the change.

 

The fact you can argue that they do not use the name Servants of All when they call themselves Aes Sedai and the term translates verbatim - Servants of All is silly to the silliest degree. You argue semantics just to argue. You would make a good lawyer I suppose. Although if I were a prosecuter I would love to be facing a lawyer such as you in trial

[SuperFade]

They do not use the name "Servants of All". They use the name "Aes Sedai", which can be translated as 'servants of all', but in practice never is.

 

Except that in The Shadow Rising Moiraine translates the phrase into 'Servants of All' during her discussion with the Wise Ones about the Old Tongue. They may not use the name but they sure as hell know that 'Aes Sedai' means Servant of All. You are obsessing over semantics.