The White Tower - Seanchan Attack

[MattTaz]

I'm guessing that Egwene would have taken the vast majority of her army and Aes Sedai to the Fields of Mamba-something (cant remember)

She earlier had 2 dreams of Seanchan attacking the WT then defending it or coming to its aid.

Way back in one of the earlier books someone Min or Egwene had a a vision/dream of a group of women being angry at

Rand and one of them was a Seanchan

Egwene is also tied to a woman symbolised by a Golden Hawk?? - really doubtful that its Berelain.

A Seanchan woman with a sword on her back comes down the cliff and says "together we can reach the top" or something like that.

Tuon would have a month for her spies to know about the armies gathering in the FoM.

What if some Trollocs have broken through the Borderlands and target the WT

Tuon & Co show up and end up having to defend it instead of plundering it???? Stretching to far???

 

I'm not sure how the timeline pans out - way to confusing, but is there time for Tuon to attack/defend the WT then turn

up at the Strawberry Fields Forever or whatever its called (dont have my book handy)

[cgk84]

I would imagine Mat deciding it was time to go to the Tower and get the Horn of Valere back and him being Prince of the Ravens might have a large part to play in any potential Seanchan attack on the White Tower and any Shadowspawn attack that may also happen at the same time or soon after....

 

All speculation of course as we'll have to read and find out!

[gambril]

I like the 'keys are under the carpet, come on in', nice touch. It's inevitable that the Seanchan are going to attack the White Tower in full force. The Aes Sedai have no chance. The only chance the AS have is some dues ex machina. Barring that, there are only two scenarious I can foresee that will benefit the White Tower.

 

1: Matrim is at the FOM and learns of the Seanchan invasion and 'aids' the AS in negotiations with Tuon. It's either this and/or Matrim just happens to be at the White Tower picking up the Horn when the Seanchan attack.

 

2: Like you said, Seanchan have control of the Tower and Trollocs start surging in from the Borderlands and the only chance of victory for the Seanchan is to suck it up and ally with the Aes Sedai.

 

Light help me though, if it's either of these scenario's and the White Tower comes out ahead or isn't severely decimated by something like this then the books kinda become trash to me. There's just no way I can foresee the Light having a chance with the White Tower's current attitude - Take the 'Aes Sedai's' reaction to Nynaeve saying she will fight alongside the DR against the Dark One at Shayol Ghul; they should be honored to the bone, yet are flabbergasted and incredulous, really?! So far in the story, outside of their own interest (White Tower), the majority of 'Aes Sedai' are completely worthless.

 

Just so I don't get slammed, this isn't to say the AS aren't without redemption...but w/o that epiphany/change of attitude/redemption...it just isn't happening for me. This does include the Seanchan as well, but in a different way.

[ajfurst]

I like the 'keys are under the carpet, come on in', nice touch. It's inevitable that the Seanchan are going to attack the White Tower in full force. The Aes Sedai have no chance. The only chance the AS have is some dues ex machina. Barring that, there are only two scenarious I can foresee that will benefit the White Tower.

There'll be dues ex machina, but the other way. Honestly that's the only way that could explain EVERY Aes Sedai, Accepted and Novice not having been taught the trick of opening the adam with a flick of the Power, a novice barely able to light a candle has the strength and skill to do.

 

Without dues ex machina it should go

Tuon - "Our sul'dam and damane have been gone for ten minutes, what's going on?"

Messenger returning - "Exalted one! We attacked the marath'damane, but they freed all our damane before we could collar more then a handful and

only a handful of our suldam and damane have escaped!"

 

Of course it won't happen that way. Some contrived reason will exist for Egwene, now the strongest Amrylin in centuries, whose dreamed of another Seanchan attack (and even without that knows they will come again) couldn't pass on a simple trick it would take 2 minutes to show to a dozen Aes Sedai who can then show the rest of the Tower within a day. After all there was only 20 or so days covered by TOM, that she wasn't spending trying to find an alternative to breaking the Seals where she could have spared those 2 minutes.

[gambril]

Well I saw something meantioned by Darth Krewl in another thread that hadn't dawned on me until he pointed it and its: Look at the contrast in the White Tower's pririoties in TOM. They spend the whole book plotting and doing their typical crap. Then we get one brief Seanchan POV and what are they focused on? They're focused entirely on destroying the White Tower and leashing all channelers. The dichotomy in these two visions between these two 'powerhouse' groups is very telling, I think :

 

Even if you loathe the Seanchan, (this isn't directed at anyone particuarly...just Aes Sedai apologist) I think you're blind if you can't admit that the Seanchan are attacking the White Tower for the very reason that we're shown in TOM and all the other books for what they do indeed do, manipulate rulers through fear, deceit and half truths; nevermind the 'small folk'. It's about time a group takes a stand against them with a no nonsense attitude about it. /Cheer

[A Rant Lord]

I think that the WT won't be attacked by trollocs, it's like throwing light armoured horsmen against pikemen. I think it will be attacked by the BA and ashaman, lead by 1-3 forsaken. During this time, the Seanchan will attack with portals and Raken and to'raken. Perrin moves dreamspike from BT to WT and voila, Forsaken are trapped, Rand taking Cyndane etc. prisoner and thus learning more about the sealing of the bore. The seanchan channelers cannot come and all their Raken are lost. Now a good part of their army is defeated and Tuon now agrees she has to make a truce with Rand. Rand, good ol' fellow as he is, travels to the crystal throne, puts Mat on it and bows for him. Badabing Badaboom

[David Selig]

Even if you loathe the Seanchan, (this isn't directed at anyone particuarly...just Aes Sedai apologist) I think you're blind if you can't admit that the Seanchan are attacking the White Tower for the very reason that we're shown in TOM and all the other books for what they do indeed do, manipulate rulers through fear, deceit and half truths; nevermind the 'small folk'. It's about time a group takes a stand against them with a no nonsense attitude about it. /Cheer

 

No, they are attacking the White Tower because they can't let all those marath'damane go around freely. The Seanchan want all female channellers leashed, regardless whether they are manipulative puppeteers trying to control the world or the village Wisdoms from the deep country.

 

Even if the Aes Sedai weren't trying to meddle in the politics of the Randland countries, they would still have been a target for the Seanchan, because one of the main doctrines of the Empire is that all marath'damane should be collared.

[gambril]

Even if you loathe the Seanchan, (this isn't directed at anyone particuarly...just Aes Sedai apologist) I think you're blind if you can't admit that the Seanchan are attacking the White Tower for the very reason that we're shown in TOM and all the other books for what they do indeed do, manipulate rulers through fear, deceit and half truths; nevermind the 'small folk'. It's about time a group takes a stand against them with a no nonsense attitude about it. /Cheer

 

No, they are attacking the White Tower because they can't let all those marath'damane go around freely. The Seanchan want all female channellers leashed, regardless whether they are manipulative puppeteers trying to control the world or the village Wisdoms from the deep country.

 

Even if the Aes Sedai weren't trying to meddle in the politics of the Randland countries, they would still have been a target for the Seanchan, because one of the main doctrines of the Empire is that all marath'damane should be collared.

 

True but this attitude of leashing all marathdamane comes from their previous experiences of 'Aes Sedai' in Seandar. So even if the Seanchan are wrong in their belief that all marathdamane need to be collared, it all turns a complete circle targeted directly at 'Aes Sedai' and their attitudes for the past 3k years. Irony at it's best imo.

[Elgee]

Those were rogue channellers, mostly, not the Aes Sedai of the White Tower. Why not say the Windfinders and the Wise Ones must also be leashed? They all have their own arrogance, if that's your beef with them.

[anotherfingolfin]

Even if you loathe the Seanchan, (this isn't directed at anyone particuarly...just Aes Sedai apologist) I think you're blind if you can't admit that the Seanchan are attacking the White Tower for the very reason that we're shown in TOM and all the other books for what they do indeed do, manipulate rulers through fear, deceit and half truths; nevermind the 'small folk'. It's about time a group takes a stand against them with a no nonsense attitude about it. /Cheer

 

No, they are attacking the White Tower because they can't let all those marath'damane go around freely. The Seanchan want all female channellers leashed, regardless whether they are manipulative puppeteers trying to control the world or the village Wisdoms from the deep country.

 

Even if the Aes Sedai weren't trying to meddle in the politics of the Randland countries, they would still have been a target for the Seanchan, because one of the main doctrines of the Empire is that all marath'damane should be collared.

 

True but this attitude of leashing all marathdamane comes from their previous experiences of 'Aes Sedai' in Seandar. So even if the Seanchan are wrong in their belief that all marathdamane need to be collared, it all turns a complete circle targeted directly at 'Aes Sedai' and their attitudes for the past 3k years. Irony at it's best imo.

 

No, no irony whatsoever. Just things coming full circle.

 

That said, the dichotomy mentioned earlier, looks much more like a parallel to me- both are monolithic organisations that have been dominant in their speheres, are supposedly on the side of Light, but with their stubbornness, and their misguided ideas and over-estimation of their own importance, are busy plotting things that only weaken the overall position of the Light, on the eve of their world's armageddon.

[gambril]

Those were rogue channellers, mostly, not the Aes Sedai of the White Tower. Why not say the Windfinders and the Wise Ones must also be leashed? They all have their own arrogance, if that's your beef with them.

 

It doesn't matter if they were 'rogue channelers'. They called themselves Aes Sedai so as far as the Seanchan are concerned...they were Aes Sedai.

[Elan Tedronai]

amazing how some people are relishing over the prospect of the those slave thugs from seandar attacking the white tower. The same people who keep banging about the need for co=operation amongst all light forces to aid rand al thor in his quest to save the world.

 

Ah well more power to them. Hopefully, those slave owners get smashed up for good this time.

[gambril]

amazing how some people are relishing over the prospect of the those slave thugs from seandar attacking the white tower. The same people who keep banging about the need for co=operation amongst all light forces to aid rand al thor in his quest to save the world.

 

Ah well more power to them. Hopefully this time, those slave owners get smashed up for good this time.

 

Ah, another Aes Sedai apologist has climbed aboard. Welcome aboard.

 

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

[Elan Tedronai]

amazing how some people are relishing over the prospect of the those slave thugs from seandar attacking the white tower. The same people who keep banging about the need for co=operation amongst all light forces to aid rand al thor in his quest to save the world.

 

Ah well more power to them. Hopefully this time, those slave owners get smashed up for good this time.

 

Ah, another Aes Sedai apologist has climbed aboard. Welcome aboard.

 

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

 

 

What crimes? like trying to take over the entire randland countries and leash any women who can channel when tarmon gaidon is just around the corner?

 

yeah keep going......

[anotherfingolfin]

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

 

That's because of the Ace's-trump-all sort of stand. When there is one point that is more glaring than anything else, the rest of the hand can be ignored. That's the sort of thing that people find easy in applying towards the Seanchan. Since slavery is horrible, some people think that using that argument when arguing against the Seanchan, not only tips the scale against them, but seemingly whitewashes all the shortcomings of the opposing party. That very many of the posters probably come from cultures where being PC is very, very highly prioritsed, slavery, and that too specifically of women, seems worse than anything else.

[Elan Tedronai]

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

 

That's because of the Ace's-trump-all sort of stand. When there is one point that is more glaring than anything else, the rest of the hand can be ignored. That's the sort of thing that people find easy in applying towards the Seanchan. Since slavery is horrible, some people think that using that argument when arguing against the Seanchan, not only tips the scale against them, but seemingly whitewashes all the shortcomings of the opposing party. That very many of the posters probably come from cultures where being PC is very, very highly prioritsed, slavery, and that too specifically of women, seems worse than anything else.

 

aaah yes, PC, the dreaded word. It's always Political correctness! Down with PC!

 

and for all the shortcomings of the aes sedai and most of which was under elaida, they pale into comparison to those maurading slave masters.

 

At this point it is simply a need to teach those women at TAR VALON a lesson and glory to whomever does it even if it is Seanchan.

[randsc]

Seanchan v. Aes Sedai is like Iraq v. Iran, or Nazi Germany v. Soviet Russia.

 

It's too bad that they can't both lose.

 

Only, this is fiction. Maybe they can.

[randsc]

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

 

That's because of the Ace's-trump-all sort of stand. When there is one point that is more glaring than anything else, the rest of the hand can be ignored. That's the sort of thing that people find easy in applying towards the Seanchan. Since slavery is horrible, some people think that using that argument when arguing against the Seanchan, not only tips the scale against them, but seemingly whitewashes all the shortcomings of the opposing party. That very many of the posters probably come from cultures where being PC is very, very highly prioritsed, slavery, and that too specifically of women, seems worse than anything else.

 

aaah yes, PC, the dreaded word. It's always Political correctness! Down with PC!

 

and for all the shortcomings of the aes sedai and most of which was under elaida, they pale into comparison to those maurading slave masters.

 

At this point it is simply a need to teach those women at TAR VALON a lesson and glory to whomever does it even if it is Seanchan.

 

A group of men who acted the same way would be just as hated. The only difference is, there wouldn't be a core group of readers ready to leap to their defense simply because of their gender.

 

You're projecting.

[gambril]

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

 

That's because of the Ace's-trump-all sort of stand. When there is one point that is more glaring than anything else, the rest of the hand can be ignored. That's the sort of thing that people find easy in applying towards the Seanchan. Since slavery is horrible, some people think that using that argument when arguing against the Seanchan, not only tips the scale against them, but seemingly whitewashes all the shortcomings of the opposing party. That very many of the posters probably come from cultures where being PC is very, very highly prioritsed, slavery, and that too specifically of women, seems worse than anything else.

 

Well my comment was laced with nothing but sarcasm. But I agree, they lack the ability to look at it objectively quite simply, which is basically what you said :).

 

It's very simple, one thousand years ago, woman channelers calling themselves Aes Sedai traveled across the ocean to Seandar and employed the same tactics in Seandar that Aes Sedai have been employing in Randland since the last Age ended. The only difference is, those woman who traveled across the ocean made a serious mistake and those people of Seandar wouldn't put up with their deceit and manipulation tactics. They got there due in Seandar and the Seanchan, whether rightly or wrongly, are determined to do the same thing in Randland and 'cleanse' them of these power hungry woman.

 

If anything, regardless of their culture and practices, like Mat...I admire the Seanchan for standing up to the Third Age's 'Aes Sedai' and saying, "No we will not put up with it and roll over like a docile lamb". This is what all the rulers of Randland, minus Hawkwing, have been doing through all of the Third Age and consequently, they are cowards. The Seanchan are not.

[anotherfingolfin]

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

 

That's because of the Ace's-trump-all sort of stand. When there is one point that is more glaring than anything else, the rest of the hand can be ignored. That's the sort of thing that people find easy in applying towards the Seanchan. Since slavery is horrible, some people think that using that argument when arguing against the Seanchan, not only tips the scale against them, but seemingly whitewashes all the shortcomings of the opposing party. That very many of the posters probably come from cultures where being PC is very, very highly prioritsed, slavery, and that too specifically of women, seems worse than anything else.

 

aaah yes, PC, the dreaded word. It's always Political correctness! Down with PC!

Gambril expressed incredulity at why some people ignore any counterpoint when it comes to the Seanchan. I merely expressed that this was because that they have a pretty bad critical flaw. No where did I say that it is NOT so. The PC (used neutrally, not with negative connotations) probably exacerbates this view.

 

and for all the shortcomings of the aes sedai and most of which was under elaida, they pale into comparison to those maurading slave masters.

Umm.. well, Elaida was pretty abd. Horriffic even. Great that she's gone. But you must be really blind, or just stubborn if you are honestly saying that you are unable to comprehend people's grouse with the AS, beyond Elaida. People are miffed, that despite getting rid of Elaida, the story hasn't taken the AS to a point where they have started really looking ahead at things that really matter <read: IMMINENT END OF THE WORLD>, instead they bicker and politick and strut around arrogant and ignorant. And it has been 3000 years in the making. Are you really incapable of comprehending this?

 

At this point it is simply a need to teach those women at TAR VALON a lesson and glory to whomever does it even if it is Seanchan.

 

The Seanchan attacking the WT is beyond horrible. But yes, there is a possible silver lining in it. It is pathetic that it has had to come to the point where people have to hope that a Seanchan attack may result in positives. But that's where the AS are at this point.

[Elgee]

Speaking for myself, I fully agree that the Aes Sedai have made some serious mistakes and deserve a slap or 2. My irritation comes in with people who single them out, whilst completely ignoring the exact same behaviour from other organised female channellers, like the Windfinders and the Aiel Wise Women. The Windfinders can be excused a bit, as they have very little power themselves - it's the Wavemistresses who should get the slaps there. The Wise Women have no such excuse for completely ignoring everything other than what they want Rand to do for the Aiel.

[randsc]

The Wise Ones don't seek to interfere with every nation, just the Aeil. They also don't attempt to enforce rules that place them in sole leadership of all female channellers world-wide. They can be obnoxious, but they're not as bad as the Aes Sedai.

 

But the fact that the Wise Ones and Windfinders are mostly not criticised does tend to negate the foolish, "People just hate the Aes Sedai because they're upity women" meme.

[gambril]

Speaking for myself, I fully agree that the Aes Sedai have made some serious mistakes and deserve a slap or 2. My irritation comes in with people who single them out, whilst completely ignoring the exact same behaviour from other organised female channellers, like the Windfinders and the Aiel Wise Women. The Windfinders can be excused a bit, as they have very little power themselves - it's the Wavemistresses who should get the slaps there. The Wise Women have no such excuse for completely ignoring everything other than what they want Rand to do for the Aiel.

 

All channelers in the Third Age have been doing it to one degree or another. The reason it all gets directed at Aes Sedai is because they've been doing it on a much grander scale, see all of Randland and their rulers. The Kin, The Wise Ones and The Windfinders kept it within their own societies out of fear of Aes Sedai.

 

The Aes Sedai don't neccasarily 'need' a slap or two. All they need to learn is their proper place in the Pattern and this does not involve continueing the tactics they've been using since the last Age. Times are changing rapidly, Randland is learning and needs to learn to have it's leaders lead their people for the people and in the best interest of the people. Aes Sedai need to learn that they need to serve these people to the best of their abilities and not manipulate them into serving the interest of the Tower. The interest of the Tower as Aes Sedai/Servants of All is to provide a service to the people they claim to serve. There is great honor in being a servant. There is no honor in strongarm tactics simply to serve your own interest.

[Darth Krewl]

Speaking for myself, I fully agree that the Aes Sedai have made some serious mistakes and deserve a slap or 2. My irritation comes in with people who single them out, whilst completely ignoring the exact same behaviour from other organised female channellers, like the Windfinders and the Aiel Wise Women. The Windfinders can be excused a bit, as they have very little power themselves - it's the Wavemistresses who should get the slaps there. The Wise Women have no such excuse for completely ignoring everything other than what they want Rand to do for the Aiel.

 

In all fairness to the Wise Ones and Sea Folk channelers, they never pledged themselves to "serve all". They have just been looking after the best interests of their people, which IMO, is exactly all they've committed themselves to. To my knowledge, none of them ever took any oaths to serve anyone else. The Aes Sedai, on the other hand, are bound by some 5000 yrs. of history of being "servants of all" and yet, they serve none other than themselves and look after the interests of no one, other than their precious Ivory Tower.

 

Besides, one thing that both, the Wise Ones and the Sea Folk channelers have done is yield to their respective prophecies to serve their Car'a'carn and Coramoor, though they do not follow him blindly, which IMO, is head and shoulders above the way Aes Sedai have been interpreting and going about the Karaethon Cycle all along. All Aes Sedai have been doing is completely overlook the Prophecies, seeking to control the Dragon Reborn and manipulate him to serve their very likely wrong and mistaken views of the Cycle, instead.

 

In the immortal words of Han Solo, this isn't a committee. The peoples of the world have to come together and rally around the Dragon Reborn to fight in the Last Battle, lest they all wanna be history. So, this is no time for petty squabbling and stupid bickering. It's a time for all to swallow their pride and differences and do what is necessary for survival, let along a future, and rally around the DR, just as the Prophecies indicate. And to this point, what have Aes Sedai been doing?

 

Forming committees to squabble and bicker amongst themselves and others lol!

 

So, IMO, Aes Sedai don't need a "slap or 2", they need a major ass-whipping just to come back down to earth and remember what the creed of their order has always been: Servants of All. Hopefully, they will learn that very painful albeit necessary lesson from the Seanchan pretty soon.

 

The Aes Sedai don't neccasarily 'need' a slap or two. All they need to learn is their proper place in the Pattern and this does not involve continueing the tactics they've been using since the last Age. Times are changing rapidly, Randland is learning and needs to learn to have it's leaders lead their people for the people and in the best interest of the people. Aes Sedai need to learn that they need to serve these people to the best of their abilities and not manipulate them into serving the interest of the Tower. The interest of the Tower as Aes Sedai/Servants of All is to provide a service to the people they claim to serve. There is great honor in being a servant. There is no honor in strongarm tactics simply to serve your own interest.

 

Spot on.

[James71]

 

Ah, another Aes Sedai apologist has climbed aboard. Welcome aboard.

 

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

 

You are taking a fictional story way too seriously.