The Future of the Aiel

[Duneflayer]

Ok so I literally finished the book five minutes ago. So Sorry if this is already a topic cause I didn't go looking through topics to see if it already existed cause I'm freaking out mentally right now.

 

So that said, one of the the things in the book I wanted to discuss is what has been foretold to happen to the Aiel. I personally would like to think that their extinction will be avoided but that could just be me being optimistic.

 

So any thoughts

[capuga]

My belief is that now that Avi knows about this possible future she will be able to work to avoid it. I think it is very unlikely to play out like the vision. If you want to see more discussion of this you can check out the Aviendha thread.

[Ala Rubra]

Ok so I literally finished the book five minutes ago. So Sorry if this is already a topic cause I didn't go looking through topics to see if it already existed cause I'm freaking out mentally right now.

 

So that said, one of the the things in the book I wanted to discuss is what has been foretold to happen to the Aiel. I personally would like to think that their extinction will be avoided but that could just be me being optimistic.

 

So any thoughts

 

IIRC, the Aiel prophecy is that "a remnant of a remnant shall he save". Yet from Padra's POV, there are still a very, very large number of Aiel left alive post-TG.

 

Possible Solution: Rand needs to use them up until a "remnant of a remnant" is left, preferably the gai'shain, at which point they can embrace the Way of the Leaf again.

[blazetheearth]

Ok so I literally finished the book five minutes ago. So Sorry if this is already a topic cause I didn't go looking through topics to see if it already existed cause I'm freaking out mentally right now.

 

So that said, one of the the things in the book I wanted to discuss is what has been foretold to happen to the Aiel. I personally would like to think that their extinction will be avoided but that could just be me being optimistic.

 

So any thoughts

 

IIRC, the Aiel prophecy is that "a remnant of a remnant shall he save". Yet from Padra's POV, there are still a very, very large number of Aiel left alive post-TG.

 

Possible Solution: Rand needs to use them up until a "remnant of a remnant" is left, preferably the gai'shain, at which point they can embrace the Way of the Leaf again.

 

I think that the WO's have been misunderstanding that whole "remnant of a remnant" thing.

 

He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live.

 

The Aiel themselves are already a remnant of what they once were, the only part of that origin left to them is that to carry a sword is forbidden. Rand broke those "who call themselves Aiel" "as dried twigs" when he gave the information of their origins. Aiel have fought Aiel in mass numbers and the number of Aiel killed would have certainly qualify as enough Aiel blood to be "as water on sand". I think that the Aiel that follow Rand now are the "remnant of a remnant" that was spoken of in the Prophecy.Nothing in the phrasing of the Prophecy indicates that the time of its fulfillment is concurrent with the LB.

[Guest Eddie Loves You]

The future that Avi saw mentioned that Rand had bowed to the Seanchan empress (Tuon) and made peace and that Tuon was thrown out of the picture pretty soon after the Last Battle. Obviously Seanchan oppression is what causes the Aiel to fall. It seems to me that the new Rand would rather give in to Tuon and have a tenuous truce with the Seanchan before The Last Battle but Avi will prevent him from doing so. I suspect Rand or someone outs Tuon and all sul'dam as channellers in AMoL, throwing their culture into chaos (or using it as leverage to make her submit to him and release the damane).

[gary0044187]

The future that Avi saw mentioned that Rand had bowed to the Seanchan empress (Tuon) and made peace and that Tuon was thrown out of the picture pretty soon after the Last Battle. Obviously Seanchan oppression is what causes the Aiel to fall. It seems to me that the new Rand would rather give in to Tuon and have a tenuous truce with the Seanchan before The Last Battle but Avi will prevent him from doing so. I suspect Rand or someone outs Tuon and all sul'dam as channellers in AMoL, throwing their culture into chaos (or using it as leverage to make her submit to him and release the damane).

it is also based on the fact that the Aiel failed to adapt to a more peaceful lifestyle. TBH, if the Seanchan were not the ones they were fighting it would have been someone else, until either the Aiel or whoever they were fighting no longer existed.

[moratcorlm]

Obviously Seanchan oppression is what causes the Aiel to fall.

Obviously, except for the fact that it wasn't.

[Erunion]

The Aiel's inability to change caused the Aiel to fall. Seanchan oppression was just the catalyst that hastened and intensified that inevitable fall.

[Durinax]

Avi will save the day by surviving and smackin her kids about whenever they do/say anything too stupid/dishonourable

[Oneida]

As far as I can tell about the only good argument that this vision isn't what WILL happen is that Rand bows(and sadly why wouldn't he, ZenRand didn't mind getting getting pimp slapped 4 times in a row for the greater good). He could TV around having to bow or something. Tuan needs a humility cheek certainly. Not to mention where the prophesy to Bow comes from. But he would probably Bow. It's hinted in the visions that Avi WAS trying to change this future, or was at least alot more talkative about the future of the Aiel than she has ever been before the end of ToM. So this probably is how the warrior aiel end. The remnant that survives are the Gai'shan who refuse to take off the white and/or whatever happens with the way of the leaf/Traveling People plot. The visions also show that they don't even have gai'shan and that the word has changed in meaning for the warrior aiel. The remnant that survives( a bunch of Gai'shan no one wants to kill because they serve tea better than Morgase) turns into the highly-respected, way of the leaf following, seedsinging, servant Aiel by the next AoL. The vision makes clear that Seanchan are expanding across the wastes in a highly advanced way that Avi confuses for the Aol at first. The Seanchan probably do end up conquering. Uniting the world they have plenty of time to deal with their bad cultural aspects (slavery) by the next Aol. They even are starting to show signs of compassion in the first(Last?) vision. Yes one of them kills the wretch mercilessly but the other one pities it. Eventually they get done with the whole Damane thing on their own and the world reaches a height of One power prestige again so they can cause another bore in the perfectly sealed Do Prison. Full circle. Or as others mentioned this is how the Dark One wants it so the Light is weak the next time around. Though I don't see Damane being able to cause a new bore as they are so badly restricted.

 

K, I lied, this probably won't happen because it would be too damned easy to prevent. Avi has all the knowledge she needs. I could see this being how the Shadow wants things to happen if they lose the LB. I don't see this being a contingency plan of the Shadow if they are going to send Nagani or whatever her name was out to get Avi working on this in the first place. Unless this is what has to happen for the wheel to come full circle in the correct way and the shadow sends Nagani to get Avi to screw it up. I suppose Nagani could be Verin if Avi's timeline is behind everyone elses(how many books ago did she leave for Ruidien anyway?) but probably not since everyone elses timeline was brought even.

[Jpat2033]

There are three seperate parties here. The Aiel, The Seanchan, and Taveren.

 

The Aiel who are CAPABLE of knowing their lineage from the Age of Legends. The Seanchan who know their lineage from Artur Hawkwing (AH). And Taveren have been granted knowledge of history.

 

AH was said to have been the strongest Taveren of All time (next to Lewis Telamon). Obviously, the affects of Taveren allowed him to form the largest empire ever. This was realized by the Seanchan leadership to the affect, they created a Ter'angreal (chrystal throne) to affect people (obviously leaders in their society), as well as Ji E Toh (to a larger affect).

 

It is obvious both the Aiel, Tuanthan, and the Seanchan practice Ji E Toh ALTERED from it’s original form.

 

And ... without vision, all people shall perish.

 

Avienda has had two prophecies delivered to her. One in the form of the Mystery woman in The Waste, and the other traveling through the collums again. Both defining the message that the Aiel must evolve and find a new purpose, as all cultures must. the options are boundless, but revolve around some key areas.

 

Rhuiden. In book IV, Rand’s battle with Asmodean created a 3 mile lake in a land “...where a pool ten feet across drew people. People would come to this valley to live... The Waste would have a city.” Cairhen grew rich off of the trade routes afforded to them from the Aiel. The Aiel simply have to reopen these routes, with pacts secured by Avienda and Elayne (first Sisters). With Rhuiden acting as a “Capital City”, the Aiel could easily form their own nation within the three-fold-land.

 

The Seanchan. There is still a homeland to secure. The Aiel forming their own nation in the waste removes them from Seanchan inspections, thus a source of conflict. However, they bring a VERY efficient form of government, that point has been made clear by The Dragon Reborn. And Gateways are not "fool proof". It has been mentioned time and time again that "nasty suprises" can be woven against them.

 

The Dragon Reborn. Rand Al’ Thor is slowly shaking his world domination mind set off, and taking an “Indirect Leader” mind set. He will have two children with Elayne, and four with Avienda. Having Multiple Wives will be “athema” in the wetlands. I predict he will move to Rhuiden, and Remake the Aes Sedai as a Society, after the dismantling of the Black Tower (which obviously has to be done). This will Allow the Jenn Aiel to Form, and a culture of warriors as well.

 

Mat made a clear statement as well to the departing “Marathdamane”, “... help me find a way to fix this without causing the empire to collapse.” Matt will work to end the leashing of Channelers. The loss of his eye could very well mean an early demise of Tuon (when he wondered if he could protect her with just one eye)

 

In short, are the Aiel Finished? No. As it has been stated time and time again, Propehcy is not final, nor is it guaranteed. In light of Avienda’s “vision”, I think she will make a different outcome. To add another twist, I think the collums played off of Avi's fears? Possible thoughts?

[Elend]

The Aiel's inability to change caused the Aiel to fall. Seanchan oppression was just the catalyst that hastened and intensified that inevitable fall.

 

This. A million times this.

[RedVanilla]

A remenant of a remnant...remember how many Shaido and Brotherless went back to the Waste? It wasn't a small group! It was big enough to have several HUNDRED Wise Ones!

[asha man]

 

I think that the WO's have been misunderstanding that whole "remnant of a remnant" thing.

 

He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live.

 

 

I've been thinking along these lines for a while. "Remnant of a remnant" is literal, and doesn't just mean that there will only be a few Aiel who live.

The first remnant is the Aiel who survive the Breaking (the remnant of those who lived during the AOL). The second remnant is "those who call themselves Aiel", (the remnant of those who survived the Breaking, since the Jenn Aiel have all died off as well).

That's not to say the Aiel come through the Last Battle completely intact, but I don't think it will be worse for them than it is for the world as a whole.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The Aiel are an almost perfect copy of Frank Herbert's Fremen from the Dune series. I won't say RJ stole them but he was probably paying homage to Herbert through their inclusion. A meek nigh defenseless slave people who endure hardship, end up in an ungodly desert wasteland, become the toughest warriors there are, form the personal bodyguard of the main protagonist, are derisive of water waste to an extreme, both societies possessing extremely similar matriarchal structures in their clans, etc.. etc..

 

With this in mind, seeing how strictly RJ held the fate/mannerisms of the Aiel to that of the Fremen, I believe the Aiel will arrive at the same destiny as the Fremen. As the world around them changes they too will change or die out. Their old ways forgotten and nothing but an ancient memory. The Aiel simply building up another people, with nothing special to set them apart, inside the new Empire(s) that forms as time flows by.

[vanceme]

As far as I can tell about the only good argument that this vision isn't what WILL happen is that Rand bows(and sadly why wouldn't he, ZenRand didn't mind getting getting pimp slapped 4 times in a row for the greater good). He could TV around having to bow or something. Tuan needs a humility cheek certainly. Not to mention where the prophesy to Bow comes from. But he would probably Bow. It's hinted in the visions that Avi WAS trying to change this future, or was at least alot more talkative about the future of the Aiel than she has ever been before the end of ToM. So this probably is how the warrior aiel end. The remnant that survives are the Gai'shan who refuse to take off the white and/or whatever happens with the way of the leaf/Traveling People plot. The visions also show that they don't even have gai'shan and that the word has changed in meaning for the warrior aiel. The remnant that survives( a bunch of Gai'shan no one wants to kill because they serve tea better than Morgase) turns into the highly-respected, way of the leaf following, seedsinging, servant Aiel by the next AoL. The vision makes clear that Seanchan are expanding across the wastes in a highly advanced way that Avi confuses for the Aol at first. The Seanchan probably do end up conquering. Uniting the world they have plenty of time to deal with their bad cultural aspects (slavery) by the next Aol. They even are starting to show signs of compassion in the first(Last?) vision. Yes one of them kills the wretch mercilessly but the other one pities it. Eventually they get done with the whole Damane thing on their own and the world reaches a height of One power prestige again so they can cause another bore in the perfectly sealed Do Prison. Full circle. Or as others mentioned this is how the Dark One wants it so the Light is weak the next time around. Though I don't see Damane being able to cause a new bore as they are so badly restricted.

 

K, I lied, this probably won't happen because it would be too damned easy to prevent. Avi has all the knowledge she needs. I could see this being how the Shadow wants things to happen if they lose the LB. I don't see this being a contingency plan of the Shadow if they are going to send Nagani or whatever her name was out to get Avi working on this in the first place. Unless this is what has to happen for the wheel to come full circle in the correct way and the shadow sends Nagani to get Avi to screw it up. I suppose Nagani could be Verin if Avi's timeline is behind everyone elses(how many books ago did she leave for Ruidien anyway?) but probably not since everyone elses timeline was brought even.

 

The only problem with this is that there are 7 ages and I believe RJ said that different ages experience various cataclysmic events. I wonder at RJ's decision on this being the 3rd age as the lotr also takes place in the "third age". I know this is the wrong thread but has there been any discussion on parallels with Tolkien? I know that RJ combined aspects from a variety of cultures both real and fictional

[teorm]

Just ignore it if it has been discussed already,

 

but I think that the future the pillar ter-angreal showed is completely unrealistic. White Tower and Black Tower falling to the damane? Men and women working together who could link creating the most powerful circles? Even one full circle of seventy-two total channelers (female and male) should be enough to completely wipe Seanchan along with their damane no matter how many damane they would have. Channelers in the circle would simply surround them selfs with a wall of air and then lay destruction on Seanchan. Since damane cannot link they would be to weak to shield the circle or cut the incoming weaves and their separate attacks would be to week to penetrate the protective wall of air that the circle would surround itself with. So how could they be winning?

[trench]

Just ignore it if it has been discussed already,

 

but I think that the future the pillar ter-angreal showed is completely unrealistic. White Tower and Black Tower falling to the damane? Men and women working together who could link creating the most powerful circles? Even one full circle of seventy-two total channelers (female and male) should be enough to completely wipe Seanchan along with their damane no matter how many damane they would have. Channelers in the circle would simply surround them selfs with a wall of air and then lay destruction on Seanchan. Since damane cannot link they would be to weak to shield the circle or cut the incoming weaves and their separate attacks would be to week to penetrate the protective wall of air that the circle would surround itself with. So how could they be winning?

 

I think what doomed the white and black towers in this future were the fact that they were separate entities and were not working together. One point RJ has always driven home was the fact that when people work together they are much stronger then when they work apart.

[teorm]

Just ignore it if it has been discussed already,

 

but I think that the future the pillar ter-angreal showed is completely unrealistic. White Tower and Black Tower falling to the damane? Men and women working together who could link creating the most powerful circles? Even one full circle of seventy-two total channelers (female and male) should be enough to completely wipe Seanchan along with their damane no matter how many damane they would have. Channelers in the circle would simply surround them selfs with a wall of air and then lay destruction on Seanchan. Since damane cannot link they would be to weak to shield the circle or cut the incoming weaves and their separate attacks would be to week to penetrate the protective wall of air that the circle would surround itself with. So how could they be winning?

 

I think what doomed the white and black towers in this future were the fact that they were separate entities and were not working together. One point RJ has always driven home was the fact that when people work together they are much stronger then when they work apart.

 

Yes, but what about the bonded Aes Sedai and Ashaman? Weren't they working together?

[afranson]

All Aviendha needs to do is work with Elayne and together their 'unique' gifts regarding ter'angreal should help find a way to neutralize the adam collars. The empire of Seanchan is only strong as long as the adam are effective. Eh?

[ranjitb]

While this discussion is interesting, its a complete intellectual exercise in my opinion.

The Seanchan (in their current incarnation) are doomed, by virtue of them being set up in opposition to the great Mary-Sue of the series, All Mother Egwene Al'Vere.

 

As re : their future goes, since Rand's Frodo ending (The world is saved....but not for me) can be seen coming from a bazillion miles away, the only future ANY society has in the short term will be tied to one of the other Two Rivers wunderkind so lets see our options.

 

1. Perrin - Um no. He will be happy being consort-in-chief to Queen Faile. Besides this is WOT, so men are completely incapable of civil governance and are only good at "playing the swords" while defending their wise queens.

2. Mat - No again. He will be happy being consort--in-chief to Empress Fortuona. Rinse, lather, repeat.

3. Nynaeve - unlikely. She has had the least amount of interaction with the Aiel, besides it would rather detract from her storyline of gathering the Malkieri diaspora if they suddenly acquired a foreign army.

4. Elayne - how dare anyone suggest that she needs Rand's cast off soldiers.

5. Which leaves our favorite world leader, Egwene Sedai. It seems painfully obvious that the surviving non-Shaido Aiel will cast off their pesky warmongering ways and become hippie peacenicks ready to run around at her beck and call. Oddly, this idea seemed so distasteful to them a while ago that the maidens were ready to commit suicide en masse because Rand wanted to force some idealized non-violent life upon them. But I suppose when the plot mandates that an entire culture of several million people suddenly become hand holding kumbaya singers to force the idea that WAR = BAD, LEAF = GOOD down our throats, that's what must happen.

[trench]

Just ignore it if it has been discussed already,

 

but I think that the future the pillar ter-angreal showed is completely unrealistic. White Tower and Black Tower falling to the damane? Men and women working together who could link creating the most powerful circles? Even one full circle of seventy-two total channelers (female and male) should be enough to completely wipe Seanchan along with their damane no matter how many damane they would have. Channelers in the circle would simply surround them selfs with a wall of air and then lay destruction on Seanchan. Since damane cannot link they would be to weak to shield the circle or cut the incoming weaves and their separate attacks would be to week to penetrate the protective wall of air that the circle would surround itself with. So how could they be winning?

 

I think what doomed the white and black towers in this future were the fact that they were separate entities and were not working together. One point RJ has always driven home was the fact that when people work together they are much stronger then when they work apart.

 

Yes, but what about the bonded Aes Sedai and Ashaman? Weren't they working together?

 

Well yes, but the impression I got from the viewings were that the 2 towers themselves were seperate and did not work together. I think the passage about how the Ashaman still fought but were underground showed this. As for the bonded channelers, perhaps Egwene forced Rand to let the Aes Sedai be free of the bond. Then failed to build bridges between the two groups in order to bring them together. The Men cant link so they are on even footing with the damane in that respect. As for the Aes Sedai, well even under Egwene thay never feel they are wrong, so hubris probably does them in. Unfortunately we wont find out because im pretty sure Avi will avert this futre.

[Rookie.Rider]

The Aiel's inability to change caused the Aiel to fall. Seanchan oppression was just the catalyst that hastened and intensified that inevitable fall.

 

 

Yes, I agree with you. It could very well be that the Aiel need to go back to peaceful ways, and be good servants. The Seanchan bring peace, and are good administrators. At least that is how Rand sees them. They do demand extreme obedience and deference to the Blood though. In a Seanchan-run society, there will be very little room for the Aiel.

 

On a side note, I find the Aiel to be a rather irritating lot and would not mind seeing them wiped out. But RJ has always seemed to treat them as his "pet" people, so who knows how the story will turn out. I'm sure he has already decided their fate long ago, before he passed away.

[Exy]

IIRC, the Aiel prophecy is that "a remnant of a remnant shall he save". Yet from Padra's POV, there are still a very, very large number of Aiel left alive post-TG.

 

Possible Solution: Rand needs to use them up until a "remnant of a remnant" is left, preferably the gai'shain, at which point they can embrace the Way of the Leaf again.

I've been kind of wondering if the surviving Shaido are the "remnant of a remnant" -- they've gone back to the Three-Fold Land to continue living as Aiel and have decided never to come back. The Shaido clan is the remnant, and the survivors of the Seanchan attack at Malden are the remnant of that remnant.

 

Aviendha is thinking along the lines of the Aiel not returning to the Three-Fold Land -- their prophecy held that they would remain there until He Who Comes With The Dawn led them out, which he has. If they remain in the west, they will kind of have stopped being Aiel, at least as Aiel have been for the last 3,000 years.

 

 

Eventually they get done with the whole Damane thing on their own and the world reaches a height of One power prestige again so they can cause another bore in the perfectly sealed Do Prison. Full circle. Or as others mentioned this is how the Dark One wants it so the Light is weak the next time around. Though I don't see Damane being able to cause a new bore as they are so badly restricted.

Eh? The Second Age is not going to come around for thousands upon thousands of years. None of these existing kingdoms/empires/societies will exist at that point. No institution survived the Breaking' date=' and there will surely be similarly cataclysmic events in between the current Third Age and the next occurrence of the Second.

 

 

It is obvious both the Aiel, Tuanthan, and the Seanchan practice Ji E Toh ALTERED from it’s original form.

Uh, what?

[Moorz]

The borderlanders are being massacred by the invading Shadow hordes. I believe the Aiel will repopulate the Borderland countries and continue to protect the southerners until the shadow rises again.