Did Cadsuane lie?

[FarShainMael]

Lord Algarin's brother, Emarin, survived ten years, and Algarin is thankful to Cadsuane for all she did for him.

 

Is this the Emarin who's now turned up at the BT? ('Working Leather'.) Logain brought him in. Evidently he's been Healed of his gentling.

[Shob]

Cadsuane, Elaida, Moraine, Egwene are all same really. They all think that Rand is incompetent idiot who has to be bullied and manipulated to do what they want. The only difference are their methods. Moraine was more manipulative, Cadsuane is a bully, Elaida uses brute force, Egwene likes to blackmail other people.

The result? Rand becomes rude and arrogant whenever they are around. Partly as an act because he wants to get rid of them, partly because they lost all the credit in his eyes ("If they don`t respect me, why should I respect them?").

It wouldn`t kill them to say "Look Rand, you are the Dragon Reborn. I trust you and respect you, but even you don`t know everything. Here is my advice."

 

That`s why I`ve always liked Elayne, Rand, Nynaeve, Aviendha. They always shows respect to other people when they deserve it and are the first to admit their mistakes.

 

As for the OP´s question. I don`t think that Cadsuane lied. She simply didn`t know it was called like that in AOl.

[Mr Ares]

Lord Algarin's brother, Emarin, survived ten years, and Algarin is thankful to Cadsuane for all she did for him.

Is this the Emarin who's now turned up at the BT? ('Working Leather'.) Logain brought him in. Evidently he's been Healed of his gentling.

And his untimely death, apparently. No, this Emarin would appear to be Algarin himself, going under a false name.

 

 

It wouldn`t kill them to say "Look Rand, you are the Dragon Reborn. I trust you and respect you, but even you don`t know everything. Here is my advice."

That's exactly what Caduane does. Rand becomes, over the course of the series, increasingly arrogant and unwilling to listen to people. In KoD he is faced with rebels against his rule agreeing to terms. The AS Rand sent to negotiate actually got better terms than Rand asked for. Rand was pissed off and threw a tantrum, because one of the terms was that those rebels would have their lands and titles restored to them. Caduane brought him up short. Caduane was one of the few people he was actually willing to listen to. Her attitude got through to him. Rand is rude and arrogant anyway, and Cadsuane is trying to adjust his behaviour there. And she does tend to treat people with the level of respect she thinks they deserve - if they act like children, they get treated like children. Cadsuane's treatment of Rand is specific to Rand - I can't recall anyone else she treats in the same way, in the normal course of things.

 

That`s why I`ve always liked Elayne, Rand, Nynaeve, Aviendha. They always shows respect to other people when they deserve it and are the first to admit their mistakes.

Elayne still doesn't accept that her actions in KoD, that got a lot of people killed, were a mistake, while many readers (and Birgitte) disagree. When Egwene catches Nynaeve lying to her in T'a'r in FoH, she inflicts the same punishment on her that Ny used to use on Egwene when she was lying, before Nynaeve grudgingly admits the truth (about being drugged). No, Nynaeve often needs things dragged out of her. I've already mentioned Rand's arrogance.

[FarShainMael]

Lord Algarin's brother, Emarin, survived ten years, and Algarin is thankful to Cadsuane for all she did for him.

Is this the Emarin who's now turned up at the BT? ('Working Leather'.) Logain brought him in. Evidently he's been Healed of his gentling.

And his untimely death, apparently. No, this Emarin would appear to be Algarin himself, going under a false name.

 

I didn't realise he'd died.. These timelines are REALLY confusing.

[Mulk]

I think he's mentioned in...is it Knife of Dreams? They are at Lord Algarin's manor and Rand brings Emarin up, which is how we find out what we know. From what I know of Cadsuane (specifically, that she'd been retired for some time before Logain popped up) I gather that was well into the past, so Emarin would have been Algarin's elder brother, or so I would think.

[Darth Krewl]

She is an old grand ma. She was stressed and acted accordingly. She is a good bully, like old women are sometimes hot tempered. As for her motivation, she does care about others, but gives the need of Rand higher priority. She failed sometimes and acknowledged it. But she did not care to share the responsibility of her failure or appologise. What do you expect from a grand ma! She does not think of Rand as a tool. In ToM she feels proud about him the way he humbly withstood the beating and humiliation from the Borderlander Monarchs (her POV). I would say she thinks about him as her grandson.

 

Yeah, I guess you could say that. An old "grandma" or an old, bitter and meddlesome, lonely aunt. One of the two.

 

But she is not Rand's grandmother; not even a distant relative of his. She has no rights over him, whatsoever. And most importantly, she doesn't know better than him; IMO, this has been made perfectly clear in the last 2 books.

[FarShainMael]

I think he's mentioned in...is it Knife of Dreams? They are at Lord Algarin's manor and Rand brings Emarin up, which is how we find out what we know. From what I know of Cadsuane (specifically, that she'd been retired for some time before Logain popped up) I gather that was well into the past, so Emarin would have been Algarin's elder brother, or so I would think.

 

All that EncWoT gives us is this:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/e/emarin.html

 

'When Emarin begins to channel, Cadsuane takes him to the White Tower to be gentled, then helps him to survive for ten more years. (CoT,Ch23) Lord Algarin remains grateful to Cadsuane for helping his brother to survive so long.'

 

It does say he's Algarin's younger brother.

 

This was indeed at Algarin's manor.

 

When did Cadsuane disappear off the radar? She was certainly around in NS.. I'd say that Emarin's death may be merely an assumption, it depends what Caddy was up to and when.

[capuga]

I think he's mentioned in...is it Knife of Dreams? They are at Lord Algarin's manor and Rand brings Emarin up, which is how we find out what we know. From what I know of Cadsuane (specifically, that she'd been retired for some time before Logain popped up) I gather that was well into the past, so Emarin would have been Algarin's elder brother, or so I would think.

 

All that EncWoT gives us is this:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/e/emarin.html

 

'When Emarin begins to channel, Cadsuane takes him to the White Tower to be gentled, then helps him to survive for ten more years. (CoT,Ch23) Lord Algarin remains grateful to Cadsuane for helping his brother to survive so long.'

 

It does say he's Algarin's younger brother.

 

This was indeed at Algarin's manor.

 

When did Cadsuane disappear off the radar? She was certainly around in NS.. I'd say that Emarin's death may be merely an assumption, it depends what Caddy was up to and when.

 

The wording of that quote makes it a safe assumption that Emarin is dead. Otherwise it would say he was greatful to Cads for "keeping him alive" or his "continued survival" instead of "survive so long". Also, we wouldn't have an end number (10 years) for how long he stays alive if he was still alive.

[Dream]

Furthermore, Algarin stated he wanted to be tested and in fact left for the Black Tower in KoD Ch. 18. Emerin in the Black Tower is indeed Lord Algarin.

 

It's small details like these that make RJ's books so fascinating and rich.

[FarShainMael]

OK, I'm (half) convinced. Only thing that puzzles me is, why did Algarin change his name, and why that name in particular? Was he sending some sort of message to Caddy, trying to get her attention?

[Lacanos]

OK, I'm (half) convinced. Only thing that puzzles me is, why did Algarin change his name, and why that name in particular? Was he sending some sort of message to Caddy, trying to get her attention?

Tribute to his brother maybe?

[FarShainMael]

I dunno. He seems remarkably close-mouthed about his past.

[Lacanos]

I dunno. He seems remarkably close-mouthed about his past.

Yet he said he met the Lord Dragon just before coming.

Last time we saw Algarin, he'd been talking to Rand about going to the Black Tower, which Rand told him to do.

It's logical deduction. Algarin says he's going, someone calling himself Emarin turns up there saying Rand advised him to go.

[FarShainMael]

Yep, as I say, I'm half convinced. Looking at that bit again, he is described as 'an older man'.

 

That aside, taking this man Emarin as Algarin: Androl considers him something of an enigma who had said nothing of his past. He does make his loyalty to Rand, and to Logain, clear. He arrived with Logain. Who's he hiding from, I wonder?

[Mr Ares]

I think the point that stuck in my mind when I think of her being a bully was the way that she treated a servant at the Far Madding palace. Wish I had the books with me so I could quote but I remember her being rude to this lowly servant for no reason. Made me think of a Sirius Black quote from Harry Potter - To get the true measure of a man, look at how he treats those under him, not how he treats his equals.

Going back to this, would the incident you're referring to be this one, from WH 24: This is the Hall of the Counsels, and -"

Tell First Counsel Barsalla that Cadsuane Melaidhrin is here to see her."

"Cadsuane Melaidhrin? I thought you were -!" He cut himself short at her suddenly hard stare.

...

"I'll allow you to run tell Aleis I'm here as fast as your legs can carry you, boy. Tell her I'll be in the dome and tell her I don't have all day. Well? Hop!"?

I would certainly be willing to call her rude, but hesistant to call her attitude here bullying. She breaks in on the man in mid sentence and tells him she wants to see the boss. Typical of her - brusque, no nonsense. She is no big fan of people continually telling her they thought she was dead (it does get tiresome), and things went downhill for the poor guy after that. He wanted to take Cadsuane to a room, then send word to Aleis. Cadsuane wasn't in the mood for needless delay, so snapped at the guy to get on with contacting Aleis. As I say, she isn't the nicest person in the world, and I can see why people take against her so often. But for all she is snappish, and doesn't suffer fools gladly, she doesn't generally bully people. She is often rude to them though.

 

 

Lord Algarin's brother, Emarin, survived ten years, and Algarin is thankful to Cadsuane for all she did for him.

Is this the Emarin who's now turned up at the BT? ('Working Leather'.) Logain brought him in. Evidently he's been Healed of his gentling.

And his untimely death, apparently. No, this Emarin would appear to be Algarin himself, going under a false name.

I didn't realise he'd died.. These timelines are REALLY confusing.

Well, like others have said, I'm not sure if it's actually confirmed that Emarin died, but it does seem to be implied.

[NetSlider]

What Arani said. Cadsuane didn't know what a paralis-net was.

 

In reguards to...

 

My question I guess is, does anyone know if Cadsuane has found a way around the three oaths? Had she made the three oaths at all?

 

Cadsuane has sworn the three oaths.

 

BHeins1 asks: According to several of AOL's members in our discussion forum, you stated at a Balticon conference that Verin Sedai had never held the Oath Rod, or had circumvented the Oaths. I was wondering if that was true, and if so, has Cadsuane also done so?

 

RJ: No, I did not say that Verin had never held the Oath Rod...Cadsuane has also held the Oath Rod.

 

Now there's an AS answer from RJ if I've ever seen one. Yes, she held the OR, but did she [i[swear[/i] on it..?

 

My thought exactly! Holding it, and even swearing it, does not mean she's still under the oath...shouldn't Cady be dead by now anyways - she's old. And we know that Kin are old too...see where I'm going with this.

[Dream]

My thought exactly! Holding it, and even swearing it, does not mean she's still under the oath...shouldn't Cady be dead by now anyways - she's old. And we know that Kin are old too...see where I'm going with this.

Cadsuane is < 300 and near death (according to her). Reanne Corly, eldest of the Kin, was 411 and still going strong when she was murdered. There's also the matter of her Aes Sedai face.

[NetSlider]

Wait, Rand said that he was over 400 when LTT killed himself and that it made him decades (not centuries) older than Cady. Also, the whole AS face is very simple to explain - she takes oaths, achieves agelessness, and than removes the oaths.

[Darth Krewl]

Wait, Rand said that he was over 400 when LTT killed himself and that it made him decades (not centuries) older than Cady. Also, the whole AS face is very simple to explain - she takes oaths, achieves agelessness, and than removes the oaths.

 

Cadsuane is around 300, not past that age because that's about the limit of an Aes Sedai's life. Rand is not over 400, that's the Dragon, the combination between Lews Therin and Rand al'Thor. This means the Dragon is, at least, 420 yrs. old. If we calculate Cadsuane's age at around 290 and the Dragon's age at around 420, that's a difference of 130 yrs; in other words, almost a century and a half. Not just decades older.

 

And, when we know that in real life, a few decades can make a huge difference between people's knowledge, expertise, wisdom, etc., then it's pretty clear why the Dragon is head and shoulders above Cadsuane. In addition, there is also all that vast knowledge, experience and wisdom acquired by the Dragon during a far, far more advanced age than what Cadsuane couldn't even dream of. He may not call her a "savage, primitive child playing at Aes Sedai" to her face, the way a Forsaken would, but his words to her clearly imply it, albeit in a much classier and decent fashion.

[Dream]

Rand took a guess at Cadsuane's age (I guess he didn't feel like being very polite). The EWoT says Cadsuane was born "about 705" while Reanne was born on 588.

 

I thought the ageless face gradually went away once the oaths were removed, but come to think of it, I'm not sure why I would think that. We know that the ageless face is reversible (by stilling/burnout) and the Oaths cause the agelessness. On the other hand, all the Aes Sedai have had their Oaths removed and still look the same. Maybe it's a slow healing process?

[moratcorlm]

I agree that Rand was just guessing; there's certainly no way he could have known. That's why he says "my junior by several decades at the least."

I thought the ageless face gradually went away once the oaths were removed, but come to think of it, I'm not sure why I would think that. We know that the ageless face is reversible (by stilling/burnout) and the Oaths cause the agelessness. On the other hand, all the Aes Sedai have had their Oaths removed and still look the same. Maybe it's a slow healing process?

Probably because Siuan said so:

But the agelessness that marked Aes Sedai seemed to have melted away; she [Min] would have had no hesitation at all in thinking these women were just six or seven years older than herself at most, and not Aes Sedai at all. [...] “From what I have read it is supposed to take longer to fade, but perhaps Elaida’s rough treatment had something to do with it.

We saw in TSR5 that Amico's Botox faded more slowly; Egwene and Elayne only saw the difference after Aviendha pointed it out. Perrin notices no difference in the three sisters Rand severed at Dumai's Wells early in ACOS, though perhaps he wouldn't know what to look for.

[Dream]

Probably because Siuan said so:

But the agelessness that marked Aes Sedai seemed to have melted away; she [Min] would have had no hesitation at all in thinking these women were just six or seven years older than herself at most, and not Aes Sedai at all. [...] “From what I have read it is supposed to take longer to fade, but perhaps Elaida’s rough treatment had something to do with it.

We saw in TSR5 that Amico's Botox faded more slowly; Egwene and Elayne only saw the difference after Aviendha pointed it out. Perrin notices no difference in the three sisters Rand severed at Dumai's Wells early in ACOS, though perhaps he wouldn't know what to look for.

Thank you. I don't remember any of that, but it's good to know my subconscious is hard at work ;).

 

It must be a royal pain to keep track of all the details of all the characters when every description or lack thereof is under constant scrutiny.

[Taura-Tierno]

I definitely don't think that Cadsuane is selfish - far from it. I haven't seen any indication that she does what she does to get glory, either. That she has has a lot of glory is easily answered; she was the strongest person to come to the Tower in a thousand years. When she was raised to Aes Sedai, she was probably already stronger than almost any other Aes Sedai, which would've put her at the very top of the hierarchy right away, so she'd be used to people obeying her.

 

I think she has showed considerable amounts of respect for other people, actually. It's mostly Rand and other Aes Sedai that she bullies. As already mentioned, there's her reasoning concerning Samitsu and how she works better when her Healing is praised. Also, which really makes me consider her both a very reasonable and somewhat compassionate woman, is the fact that she always treated Daigian with respect. I believe she thought at one point that she couldn't protect Daigian from the other Aes Sedai, since that would've made Daigian her "pet" in the other's eyes, which would have been even worse. But all other Aes Sedai seem to treat her like some kind of servant, simply because she's very weak in the One Power. Except Cadsuane. Cadsuane even gave her control of one of the circles during the Cleansing.

 

"A strange place to be riding," Beldeine said suspiciously. The pretty Green had not been pleased when Cadsuane put Daigian in charge, and she had taken every opportunity to state her opinion of Daigian's decisions.

 

I'd wager most Aes Sedai would've put another at the lead, since she's undoutebly stronger in the One Power. But Cadsuane put the meek Daigian at the lead, who probably haven't ever had an important task, since she's always treated like a servant. She obviously saw something in the woman that others didn't. That makes her a whole lot better than most Aes Sedai. If she had been too set in her Aes Sedai ways, she would never have put Daigian in charge of the Circle. She wouldn't necessarily have put Beldeine at the lead, since she's pretty young, but she could've mixed the circles in another way that put Daigian in a back seat instead.

 

She has also started experimenting with the One Power, something that, if she had been set in her ways, she'd have considered too dangerous. She mentioned it when she thought about the wards she set in her rooms in TGS. She also mentions in the same book that she tried the a'dam on herself, something that, I think, extremely few other Aes Sedai would've been willing to do. She's practical, not afraid of doing things differently.

 

She has shown many times that she has insight into her own actions, like figuring out how to break Semirhage by thinking of how to break herself, or simply by hoping that she didn't order Merise to attack her own allies at the cleansing, or regretting what she had to do to Aleis. If she is selfish, she's no more so than every single character in these books.

[babuada]

She has shown many times that she has insight into her own actions, like figuring out how to break Semirhage by thinking of how to break herself, or simply by hoping that she didn't order Merise to attack her own allies at the cleansing, or regretting what she had to do to Aleis. If she is selfish, she's no more so than every single character in these books.

She is not selfish at all. Her sin is pride. But good thing about her is she acknowledges that (when breaking Semirhage), that is what makes her better than others.

[Taura-Tierno]

Yeah, she definitely has some pride, and is a bit arrogant. But as you say, she is aware of it, and that makes her a whole lot better than most Aes Sedai, who are completely ignorant about anything besides their own awesomeness. There are a few exceptions, but most seem to act that way.