Where did the Forsaken learn to speak English?

[Hadilmir]

But seriously, you accept the fact that so many in the books have the ability to move objects with their mind, create flames out of nothing, call down lightning, conjure up portholes in thin air to "travel" through, control minds with compulsion, and do all sorts of other things, all the while, from his state of semi-nonexistance in his prison, the Dark One is able to cause bubbles of evil to pop up causing mirror reflections to come alive and the charecters from playing cards to come alive, and both of these now living things to try and kill people, insectes burst out of peoples' skins, and buildings suddenly catch fire on nothing.... and despite all this, people are actualy requireing some sort of explaination as to how the forsaken know how to speak the common tongue?

 

Opinionated Wall of Text Warning!

 

Personally I can accept all those facts because I see the WoT Universe as a conscious-driven universe. Souls are the driving force, and directly connected to the spinning of the Wheel, which in truth is just a metaphor to explain how atoms resemble strings when you view them from outside of time. World events are decided by the collective conscious of all living souls, which is balanced by the fact that millions of opinions are shaping 'coincidence'. The vast majority of the world wants to continue to exist and so the Pattern, a.k.a. the collective conscious, is obligated to see it done. If the majority of the world sees the need for a hero, even subconsciously, a ta'veren is born. Of course if the majority wanted the hero, they probably wanted them alive, and so the Pattern is obligated to keep them alive and see them to the task required of them. Perrin breaking away from Rand was an exception, the world wanted him alive so he could protect the Dragon Reborn, but leaving Rand still didn't directly put him at risk of death. That allowed him to go against the will of the majority in staying near Rand, but still remain within the required bounds of ta'vereness as he was still able to fufill the collective conscious's later wishes.

 

If the universe is controlled by collective thought, which still allows for other civilizations in different galaxies because WoT humans don't think specifically enough on those things to greatly affect them, then 'magic' is legitimately possible through thought because there is no universal law outside of thought. The entire world knows gravity exists, so obviously one person can't will gravity to not affect them. However, the whole world believes in channeling, and though it was apparently discovered by one man (Which is still plausible in my line of thinking as it can be explained by the world needing something so much that an underlying force is allowed to be rediscovered even if no one believes in the force itself) it is a major focus of the world and due to the recycling of souls the entire world knows unconsciously how it works. That universal understanding defines the actual laws of the One Power because if you think the same way as I do, you see the One Power as drawing upon the will of souls not present in the wheel to direct change reality by adding their will to the channelers thoughts, overpowering the collective conscious through the sheer focus of drawing upon many souls to think about the same direct thing. I'd go into more detail, but I have to leave to go somewhere soon.

 

Now, because the world is so influenced by the thoughts of souls, the Unseen World, T'A'R, makes sense to be the same world outside the influence of time. There is no physical light there, and so distance and time don't matter even though it reflects the current times as it is also driven by souls' thoughts or perhaps collective memories. The conscious mind is stronger than the subconscious mind when it comes to direct events, so a person in T'A'R is able to warp reality because their thoughts are more direct than the subconscious thoughts of the waking world. Finally onto how this ties into the Dark One, look at him/her/it as the collective nihilistic thought/hatred/evil/fear of mankind. The 'prison' becomes humanities ability to go against their primal instincts and separate their actions from their emotions. That prison is weakening not by humanity's failing, but because they know it must be failing, the Pattern is being guided in this by their fear of non-existence and so the Dark One is able to weaken the Pattern as he is their fear overcoming rationality. To spread his power, since he is basically a sentient combination of the evil thoughts in every soul, he has the strength to go against the collective conscious as he is also represented by a majority of thought. So his reality can be superimposed over the real world, allowing 'evil magic' (In reality it is actually a questioning of reality) such as living nightmares to be found in the 'real world'.

 

 

Sorry if this seems very rushed, because it was.

[moratcorlm]

Is there one real world example of a society that this would even remotely apply to? It's just totally unrelated to and at odds with any form of linguistic development that's ever happened.

The printing press has not been in widespread use for a thousand years, so no. Ask five hundred years from now how much English has changed since Shakespeare's time.

 

Our linguistic development, with multiple ancient roots and thousands of extant languages, is something quite different to a world that had one language worldwide and then had its descendant imposed on much of the world through conquest, to a certain extent stabilized by the presence of literacy (would 19th-century Latin be incomprehensible to a Roman?)

[Kestrel]

Looking at what happened in the English language in barely 625 years, I have a bit of a hard time suspending disbelief on this language question and how it was still recognizable after 3,000 years.

 

The Canterbury Tales, from The Squire's Tale, The Sword, in English as spoken in AD1385 :

 

And oother folk han wondred on the swerd, That wolde percen thurgh out every thyng;

And fille in speche of Thelophus the kyng, And of Achilles with his queynte spere,

For he koude with it bothe heele and dere, Right in swich wise as men may with the swerd,

Of which right now ye han youreselven herd.

They speken of sondry hardyng of metal, And speke of medicynes therwithal,

And how and whanne it sholde yharded be, Which is unknowe, algates unto me.

 

In modern English:

 

And other folk did wonder on the sword that had the power to pierce through anything;

And so they spoke of Telephus the king, and of Achilles with his magic spear,

Wherewith he healed and hurt too, 'twould appear, Even as a man might do with this new sword

Of which, but now, I've told and you have heard.

They spoke of tempering metal sundry wise, and medicines therewith, which men devise,

And how and when such steel should hardened be; Which, nevertheless, is all unknown to me.

 

I have a better idea idea: The AoL Aes Sedai knew how to make "Universal Translator" ter'angreals. All of the Forsaken wear them.

[Agitel]

One can't exactly compare with real history, here, almost all of the population has been literate for 3000 years, something that can't ve said uin historical terms. Perhaps the language shouldn't be static (and I don't think it was, in the books) but literacy slows done the evolution of language by a large degree, and a common tongue shared by all would probably slow it further.t

[Luckers]

they have had relatively little intercourse with the rest of the world.

 

*giggles*

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Just idly during my reread through, I stumbled across Asmo staring at Mat when he broke into the old tounge. Then I realized, this guy, and all his buddies, have been asleep for 3000+ years. He's been awake, oh, a couple months. His two buddies popped right out in tEotW and knew the current language. How did they learn the current language?

 

Rosetta Stone

 

University of Phoenix

 

Universal translator

 

Vulcan mind meld

[konkoivu]

Looking at what happened in the English language in barely 625 years, I have a bit of a hard time suspending disbelief on this language question and how it was still recognizable after 3,000 years.

 

The Canterbury Tales, from The Squire's Tale, The Sword, in English as spoken in AD1385 :

 

And oother folk han wondred on the swerd, That wolde percen thurgh out every thyng;

And fille in speche of Thelophus the kyng, And of Achilles with his queynte spere,

For he koude with it bothe heele and dere, Right in swich wise as men may with the swerd,

Of which right now ye han youreselven herd.

They speken of sondry hardyng of metal, And speke of medicynes therwithal,

And how and whanne it sholde yharded be, Which is unknowe, algates unto me.

 

In modern English:

 

And other folk did wonder on the sword that had the power to pierce through anything;

And so they spoke of Telephus the king, and of Achilles with his magic spear,

Wherewith he healed and hurt too, 'twould appear, Even as a man might do with this new sword

Of which, but now, I've told and you have heard.

They spoke of tempering metal sundry wise, and medicines therewith, which men devise,

And how and when such steel should hardened be; Which, nevertheless, is all unknown to me.

 

I have a better idea idea: The AoL Aes Sedai knew how to make "Universal Translator" ter'angreals. All of the Forsaken wear them.

To a person like me the old english is still more understandable than english used in most forums. But i've learned english as a totally foreign language.

 

On topic i find common language unrealistic. I mean there isn't even a slang.One would think that borderlanders had figured out a word for "scythe like sword".

Or that tairens and illianers had a different word for silverpike. To me it seems easier to have different words for things than having the same language and speking it backwards. IRL swedish danish norwegian and islandic are almost the same language with some differense in spelling but hardly any in grammar.I think that outsider couldn't hear the difference between a swede and a norse in spoken language. The point of this rant is that should be more variety in language around the world.

[graendalzooescapee]

This is probably RJ's least convincing retcon. Knowing an ancient language is a small help in learning its modern descendants, but not nearly enough to reach fluency in a matter of months. The Forsaken may be geniuses, but that doesn't imply that they're linguistic geniuses, which is the only way this might work.

 

I know Latin. That doesn't mean I can speak Spanish, Italian and French, or understood them spoken. I can make out simple signs.

 

(I also slightly wonder how RJ could possibly think Latin is simpler than Italian. It's inflected, which none of its descendants are, and it has a small vocabulary leading to a lot of ambiguity, much like the OT.)

[Gathering Storman Norman]

This is probably RJ's least convincing retcon. Knowing an ancient language is a small help in learning its modern descendants, but not nearly enough to reach fluency in a matter of months. The Forsaken may be geniuses, but that durant imply that they're linguistic geniuses, which is the only way this might work.

 

I know Latin. That doesn't mean I can speak Spanish, Italian and French, or understood them spoken. I can make out simple signs.

 

(I also slightly wonder how RJ could possibly think Latin is simpler than Italian. It's inflected, which none of its descendants are, and it has a small vocabulary leading to a lot of ambiguity, much like the OT.)

 

I think RJ didn't put a lot of thought into it and figured no one would ever care how the Forsaken picked up the modern Randland language.

 

I'm not saying he pulled the answer out of his backside when asked but he certainly didn't think anyone would really care how they learned modern Randlandonese.

[francy]

El Oscuro, like an add-on for Forsaken? A software upgrade? I see them as terminator-like, now. Thx... :D

 

Exactly!

 

just kidding.

 

But seriously, you accept the fact that so many in the books have the ability to move objects with their mind, create flames out of nothing, call down lightning, conjure up portholes in thin air to "travel" through, control minds with compulsion, and do all sorts of other things, all the while, from his state of semi-nonexistance in his prison, the Dark One is able to cause bubbles of evil to pop up causing mirror reflections to come alive and the charecters from playing cards to come alive, and both of these now living things to try and kill people, insectes burst out of peoples' skins, and buildings suddenly catch fire on nothing.... and despite all this, people are actualy requireing some sort of explaination as to how the forsaken know how to speak the common tongue?

 

Yes! Because, people can accept and believe the impossible, but can't believe the 'improbable'.

 

:-)

[Luckers]

How did the Forsaken learn the modern language so easily? It's because all of them have degrees in linguistics.

 

At first this seems odd, until you consider the moral integrity of linguists, and then you understand. The Dark One does attract evil, after all.

[graendalzooescapee]

How did the Forsaken learn the modern language so easily? It's because all of them have degrees in linguistics.

 

At first this seems odd, until you consider the moral integrity of linguists, and then you understand. The Dark One does attract evil, after all.

 

LOL. But seriously, Balthamel is the only one whose job would have required extraordinary language ability. All the rest of them are talented, but not necessarily at learning languages.

[Luckers]

Ironically, Balthamel is the one that struggled the most with the new language--Halima's letters were rough and unformed, like a childs.

[Muad Cheade]

Semirhage as Anath was unable to develop more than a hint of the Seanchan accent.

[Hopefire]

Ironically, Balthamel is the one that struggled the most with the new language--Halima's letters were rough and unformed, like a childs.

There may have been other factors at work there. For example, the new body might have been left handed! Huge difference! And there's one very, very large difference as well between the old body and the new body...

[yoniy0]

And there's one very, very large difference as well between the old body and the new body...

Now how would you know that?

[Agitel]

I thought the Forsaken were free for two years before EotW? Hadn't Semirhage been Tuon's advisor for a couple of years?

 

They had more than a few months to learn.

[Luckers]

Semirhage became Tuon's Truthspeaker 'less than two years' before Tuon came onscreen in WH; 14, What a Veil Hides. That is on Saban 2 1000NE. The books begin on Aine 8 998NE. That's one year and eleven months. Hence Semirhage took on the role sometime during or just after EotW--my guess is just after. EotW took two months, and its about the same time the other Forsaken appear, following Balthemel and Aginor's release, and one year and nine months would be a good time frame for a 'less than two years' comment.

[Goramier]

But the Aiel? The Sharans? Whether they buy books from peddlers or not, they're the biggest bunch of xenophobic racists in the world, and they have had relatively little intercourse with the rest of the world in over two thousand years. They really should still be speaking the Old Tongue, or some bastardized version of it, with a little understanding of the common speech among traders.

 

I agree with you in regards to the Aiel. They really should not be speaking the common tongue of the rest. But Shara? How do we know they do not speak a different language over all? The only real contact with them is via the trade routes. So it's reasonable that the traders should have a command of the tongue of their victims.. I mean customers. Inside the place though who knows?

 

 

We actually meet a couple people from Shara during the story, RJ just didn't announce it. They are subtle, and easy to miss but there are several such interactions. I suspect that the explanation would be that those from Shara learned the language or at least held it as a second language for trading purposes. That, and RJ wasn't about to go into such detail on a small side note to the story so he simplified it by just making them at least be able to speak and understand the common tongue even if it isn't the one they actually speak when at their home lands.

 

As for links or proof, sorry, I am way to lazy to bother looking through thousands of pages to site a couple of sentences. I remember one specific time that a person from Shara was speaking though. I don't remember where but it was in one of the southern harbor cities like Tear or Illian. It was in a tavern and people were having a conversation and one person said that silk came from worms and the other patrons laughed in his face and thought it was such a stupid thing. RJ had said during the course of the story however, that silk had come from Shara and from worms and I think there was something called the silk-path or something like that, used from trade to/from Shara at one point...I think before the Aiel closed the waste to outsiders.

 

Anyways there were several such times RJ had used subtle little inclusions of people from Shara. I know I noticed at least 4 but the only one specificially was the dude laughed at about silk worms and he clearly spoke common tongue.

[Kestrel]

Maybe "Universal Translator" ter'angreals are just so common that everyone has several just laying around, and no one thinks they're worth mentioning. Kinda like pennies nowadays.

[Hopefire]

And there's one very, very large difference as well between the old body and the new body...

Now how would you know that?

Halima is a lively girl.

[Kidicaris]

This is a small pet peeve of mine too that I wondered about when we were first meeting the Forsaken.

 

Oh goodness, there sure is a lot of talk about the supposed intelligence and genius of the Forsaken. Yet, stupid is as stupid does and the Forsaken haven't been very bright in their actions in these books. Perhaps Raavin had a double major in language with a focus on love poems and pillow talk, but I highly doubt it.

Basically, I don't think the Forsaken were/are particularly bright, not as written by RJ, regardless of the buildup and hype and myth surrounded them. In the end it's just one of those parts of his world he didn't think about, and then tried to retcon a silly explanation when it was brought to his attention. Maybe Tolkien--a linguist, would have come up with something more probable.

 

The simplest solution would be to edit in small passages about "strange" accents, or odd word choices whenever a Forsaken is speaking, like RJ did with the Seanchan. The Forsaken might not be particularly bright, but they are all extremely arrogant, far more believable would be for them to speak ONLY their native Old Tongue (whatever it was called in the AoL, "The Language"?) and tow around a darkfriend translator whenever they deigned to communicate with one of the backward, uneducated, no running hot water, Randlanders.

 

Moghedien "Did you see that they actually drink that stuff?"

Semirhage "What stuff?"

Moghedien "MILK!"

Semirhage "What! But it is a secretion! Exactly what animal do they get it from? They don't get it from humans do they?!" Semirhage dry heaved a little and placed her cup back on the plate.

 

Dende der'dende ti'dende tovien sur'tovien al'tovien it all sounded the same to Mili. She had been bent over for what seemed like an hour, holding a plate up before her, high, lest the mistress be displeased.

[Soraz]

If you think of the Old Tounge as Latin, then the new common tounge may be English or French; something derived from latin. Someone who knew latin intimatly would probably pick up on these simpleton languages super-quick, although the other way around is more difficult.

 

It may even be, that the Old Toungue was spoken by high society, while common was spoken by everyone; even back then.

[Sharaman]

Perhaps the GLoD dumped knowledge of Common into His Chosen's heads and Compelled them to learn it? Except that we have an explanation from RJ - agreed, it's unlikely but it's all you have. accept in the spirit of fantasy or magic realism or whatever, I guess.

[Guest Erik the Green]

Well the wheel of time is a cycle, so in this age people may speak the common tongue and in the previous age and maybe in a future age the old tongue will be spoken again. Perhaps the DO can translate for the forsaken through the link, or open up memories to their past lives (the DO should have power at least equaling the snakes and foxes) or the common tongue could just be intuitive for them through their “new” blood (like some ta’veren we know).

I believe there is evidence of the forsaken needing to learn the new language before taking power again. Example in chapter 2 of TSR, Mat speaks in the old tongue while playing cards in the Stone, and after Estean translates the statement he replies, “My tutor would be proud. I ought to send him a gift. If I can find out where he went.”

Why go through the effort of mentioning the missing tutor of a minor character, unless there is a deeper meaning. My theory is: this is alluding to Be’lal, who may have left Estean’s service when he became the High Lord Samon. Teaching the old tongue to the High Lords of Tear, is the type of job that may have been offered to someone who shows up at the Stone speaking the old tongue. The teaching could have gone both ways, the lordling learns the old tongue and the tutor learns the common speech. It gives Be’lal an opportunity to learn more about this new world and be in a position to influence events.

I don’t know if I can explain away the Aiel not speaking the old tongue, but here is an attempt. Like many of the previous posts claimed the printing press is the best solution. Perhaps the Aiel’s Love for books, could have influenced their spoken language. The lack of wood and paper in the waste, make it unlikely that the Aiel can make their own books, so new books must come from outside the waste. To read the books they trade for, the Aiel would have to learn the new tongue. Then to teach their children to read they have to teach them the language too. Over the centuries, the new tongue words would have had plenty of time to gradually be incorporated into and eventually supplant the Aiel’s native language. This would allow the Aiel to keep a lot of old tongue words, while words not used very often could be dropped, explaining why they can’t translate some things like “fool box”.