The Seals

[WhiskyJack]

My theory is that Rand's proclamation to the whole world that he is going to break the seals is a ruse just to get them to unite for something, even if it against him, for the moment.

 

'He will break what must be broken" refers to Callandor and not the seals. He will break them at the right time, but it is in the breaking of Callandor that the Dark One will be defeated, perhaps when he himself indwells the sword through the flaw inside of it.

 

My hunch is that Callandor has a much bigger role to play than just a suped up sa'angrael at the Last Battle. The Dark One will guess that that is what Rand will try and will make himself present in the flaw within the sword, waiting for Rand and two of the most powerful women to use the sword, and then either take them captive, turn them to the dark, or destroy them. Likely one of the second two options. However, when the Dark One tries this, Rand will break Callandor and temporarily cast the Dark One from the pattern. This will set the stage for the seed-singing closure of the bore.

Casting aside the Dark one from the pattern is just exactly what the DO Wan't no?

I mean that will free him entirely

 

DO is not part of pattern.

[Ashlyn]

Herid Fel's scrap of paper is often used as arguments for Rand's breaking the seals, but there's another bit of information on that piece of paper that gets left off a great deal. Here's the whole quote "Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build." Now clearing the rubble makes perfect sense but belief and order giving strength? It could be a metaphorical/philosophical type of thing, but Fel never struck me as that type of guy. However, it does sound an awful lot like the characteristics you need to win in T'A'R, which makes me think a large portion of the fight will be held there, or in a place similar--at least the most important parts of the fight.

 

Could this be something along the lines of Rand's fight in the sky at Falme? When the forces of the Light were advancing, so was Rand, and vice versa? I've always believed that the Last Battle will be an integrated sort of thing, where everything depends on everyone doing their part.

[Charles_Darwin]

Ok, here are the facts. (Correct me if i am wrong)

 

1. Taim (confirmed Darkfriend) gives a Seal to Rand

2. LTT inside Rand freaks out, wanting to destroy the Seal then and there.

3. Taim looks very afraid when Rand (LTT) is freaking out, wanting to destroy the Seal.

4. Note from Harid Fel and Min's observations both conclude Rand must destroy the Seal before he 'Can build'.

 

From point 3 one can conclude that the Shadow does NOT want the Seals Destroyed. (otherwise why would Taim be afraid?)

So there must have been a reason why the 'Bad guys' gave the Seal to Rand. My theory is that The Dark one has reversed the effect of the Seals: They used to be focus points for the patch; now they are focus points for the DO where he can influence the World. What better place than close to Rand, where he can 'Turn him to the Dark Side?' Which we all know almost succeeded at Dragonmount. (Reading that chapter -Veins of Gold- still gives me goosdebumps, positive & negative)

 

This theory explains why Rand must destroy then. How he is going to build afterwards, one can only speculate. Personally i will be very disappointed if he will apply another patch. I hope (and suspect a bit) that the Creator will take a hand. (Remember that CAPS RAFO from tEotW?)

Rand be the light's Avatar and Moridin the Shadow's Avatar and the outcome will decide the battle. (a little bit like Falme, as people before me suggested, all characters linked to each other - see Min's viewing in BAerlon about the lighs trying to fill the shadow)

 

Looking forward to AMOL, can't wait..

[Mats Spare Hat]

I always thought the seals, the disks, were physical indicators of prophetic events being fulfilled, instead of literally being the "actual" seals themselves.

 

No. They are the focus points for the patch LTT and Co. placed on the Bore. Yes, they're signs that figure in the prophecies, but that's because when one is broken, the patch actually and truly does get weaker. That is stated in the books.

 

See I'd be more convinced of the relevance of the disks themselves if there were a scene where nobody, anywhere, were close to or had just fulfilled an event causing a seal to be undone had NOT occurred, but the disk still broke completely - not just a flake from a knife. Kind of pig-headed, but unless in AMoL somebody actually picks up a disk and smashes it or snaps it in half, and that's what literally 'breaks the seal' without some kind of prophetic tie-in, like brawling with ishamael in the clouds, finding the eye of the world, gaining the crystal sword, you can't say the disks themselves are critically important.

 

I'm going with the patch on the bore actually and truly weaker, because the fulfilling of certain events causes the weakening and/or outright breaking of the seals - the books show that, too - and the disks flaking/breaking are the physical representation of what's going on in a broader sense. I'm trying to say that no matter what physically happens to a disk, condition wise, it won't be a direct result of what you're doing to it, the disk.

 

Moiraine flakes off a bit, but it's not because she's able to physically bust it, it's because somebody's walking down the road of destiny at that point causing the seal(not the disk), in the metaphysical spooky prophetic way, to break down, and the condition of the disk is what shows that...I mean even if you were Rand and you'd never heard, possessed, or even had a glimpse of a disk, the seals are still breaking and degrading because of what he's been up to.

 

Otherwise you gotta figure you'd get more of a sense of urgency from the other side saying screw messing with Rand & Co. all we need is those disks to set the DO free.

[Cut Strand]

I think when Rand pulls them out they will already be broken.

 

Also on a side note i dont think Rand will reseal the bore at all. i think he'll end up having to defeat the DO rather than reseal.

I think I posted this same sentiment.

 

Something about this turning of the Wheel is more important. So my meta-thinking is that this will be the end of the "Wheel." No more cyclic history.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Now that's ^^^ some talking through your hat.

 

A Labors of Hercules kinda thing with the seals keeping score. Complete a labor break a seal. I don't thing there's anything in the series that rules out it working that way.

 

I'd think that Perrin accepting his role and making the hammer might break a disk. Then Rand having his epiphany should have broken another. Perhaps Mat rescuing Moiraine might have broken a third.

 

I think that might be all of the unbroken ones that there were.

 

A very interesting theory.

[FarShainMael]

No mortal can or should be able to defeat the Dark One. The best they can hope for is a patching/sealing of the Bore. Defeating the Dark One would probably be as bad as letting him win, considering he is essential to everything, this being a world of opposites. Saidin/Saidar Man/woman creator/dark one etc.

 

The DO was defeated (not destroyed), in the previous turning, somehow, because Its prison was intact when Mierin and Beidomon bored in. It will have to be intact in the next Turning. According to Herid Fel, anyway.

 

Also: what's that network of light that Nynaeve detected in Rand's brain?

[nolirion]

My theory is that Rand's proclamation to the whole world that he is going to break the seals is a ruse just to get them to unite for something, even if it against him, for the moment.

 

'He will break what must be broken" refers to Callandor and not the seals. He will break them at the right time, but it is in the breaking of Callandor that the Dark One will be defeated, perhaps when he himself indwells the sword through the flaw inside of it.

 

My hunch is that Callandor has a much bigger role to play than just a suped up sa'angrael at the Last Battle. The Dark One will guess that that is what Rand will try and will make himself present in the flaw within the sword, waiting for Rand and two of the most powerful women to use the sword, and then either take them captive, turn them to the dark, or destroy them. Likely one of the second two options. However, when the Dark One tries this, Rand will break Callandor and temporarily cast the Dark One from the pattern. This will set the stage for the seed-singing closure of the bore.

Casting aside the Dark one from the pattern is just exactly what the DO Wan't no?

I mean that will free him entirely

 

DO is not part of pattern.

I have always felt the DO was imprisoned In the pattern by a thing ( the withe sphere)

[WhiskyJack]

I always thought the seals, the disks, were physical indicators of prophetic events being fulfilled, instead of literally being the "actual" seals themselves.

 

No. They are the focus points for the patch LTT and Co. placed on the Bore. Yes, they're signs that figure in the prophecies, but that's because when one is broken, the patch actually and truly does get weaker. That is stated in the books.

 

See I'd be more convinced of the relevance of the disks themselves if there were a scene where nobody, anywhere, were close to or had just fulfilled an event causing a seal to be undone had NOT occurred, but the disk still broke completely - not just a flake from a knife. Kind of pig-headed, but unless in AMoL somebody actually picks up a disk and smashes it or snaps it in half, and that's what literally 'breaks the seal' without some kind of prophetic tie-in, like brawling with ishamael in the clouds, finding the eye of the world, gaining the crystal sword, you can't say the disks themselves are critically important.

 

I'm going with the patch on the bore actually and truly weaker, because the fulfilling of certain events causes the weakening and/or outright breaking of the seals - the books show that, too - and the disks flaking/breaking are the physical representation of what's going on in a broader sense. I'm trying to say that no matter what physically happens to a disk, condition wise, it won't be a direct result of what you're doing to it, the disk.

 

 

Otherwise you gotta figure you'd get more of a sense of urgency from the other side saying screw messing with Rand & Co. all we need is those disks to set the DO free.

 

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But books says otherwise. Breaking the seal is exactly that. Nynaeve actually broke one seal by accident and Rand is actually going to break the disc objects or as you said, smash them. Strike on SG is a good read on seal.

 

Breaking the seals will NOT release DO. So it's not that easy.

[WhiskyJack]

No mortal can or should be able to defeat the Dark One. The best they can hope for is a patching/sealing of the Bore. Defeating the Dark One would probably be as bad as letting him win, considering he is essential to everything, this being a world of opposites. Saidin/Saidar Man/woman creator/dark one etc.

 

The DO was defeated (not destroyed), in the previous turning, somehow, because Its prison was intact when Mierin and Beidomon bored in. It will have to be intact in the next Turning. According to Herid Fel, anyway.

 

Also: what's that network of light that Nynaeve detected in Rand's brain?

 

 

Yeh yeh, LTT defeated DO too..we get it.

[WhiskyJack]

I think when Rand pulls them out they will already be broken.

 

Also on a side note i dont think Rand will reseal the bore at all. i think he'll end up having to defeat the DO rather than reseal.

 

 

Something about this turning of the Wheel is more important. So my meta-thinking is that this will be the end of the "Wheel." No more cyclic history.

 

 

Unfortunately wheel is also the "thing" that weaves the pattern so end of "Wheel" is end of universe itself. How is that for weird;)

[WhiskyJack]

Now that's ^^^ some talking through your hat.

 

A Labors of Hercules kinda thing with the seals keeping score. Complete a labor break a seal. I don't thing there's anything in the series that rules out it working that way.

 

I'd think that Perrin accepting his role and making the hammer might break a disk. Then Rand having his epiphany should have broken another. Perhaps Mat rescuing Moiraine might have broken a third.

 

I think that might be all of the unbroken ones that there were.

 

A very interesting theory.

 

 

Just one problem. Nynaeve actually broke one by mistake. What labor was that? And it is hard to imagine that 3 labors are waiting for someone in last book when in 13 books we had like 2 or 3 labors.

[Agitel]

Rand isn't going to reseal the bore. He's going to heal it. The Pattern needs to be fixed, not patched, before the Age of Legends comes again. Granted. that technically could happen over the next five Ages, but given the nature of this series I'm betting all the marbles that we'll see a total fix. Men and women need to work together to do it, though.

[didymos]

See I'd be more convinced of the relevance of the disks themselves if there were a scene where nobody, anywhere, were close to or had just fulfilled an event causing a seal to be undone had NOT occurred, but the disk still broke completely - not just a flake from a knife.

 

There is. The one Nynaeve and Elayne found in Tanchico was intact when they left, and at times during the trip to Salidar, they could feel evil emanating from it anytime they touched the purse it was in. The last time Nynaeve feels that sensation of evil, they're getting ready to leave Luca's show and board the rivership in Samara. They get to Salidar, and it's shattered, and there's no evil feeling anymore. Nothing in particular happened to any of the characters during that time. The closest big plot development was the Battle of Cairhien, and that happened before they left Luca's show. Unless you think the battle/riot in Samara was super-important for some reason, the only real explanation is that the thing just broke because it was so fragile.

 

 

Anyway: again, the books tell us flat-out that the discs are the focus points. They're not just some fancy AoL-concocted Defcon system or whatever. They're required for the patch to function.

[WhiskyJack]

Rand isn't going to reseal the bore. He's going to heal it. The Pattern needs to be fixed, not patched, before the Age of Legends comes again. Granted. that technically could happen over the next five Ages, but given the nature of this series I'm betting all the marbles that we'll see a total fix. Men and women need to work together to do it, though.

 

 

Heal how? How do you "fix" pattern?

[drabhiram]

Hi,

 

My simple thoughts.

 

1. "The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow."

2. "His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man’s salvation."

That is what The Karaethon Cycle, the Prophecies of the Dragon, says. Rand's unhealing wound will break open at Shayol Ghul, that was the very purpose of his wound.

Remember the sha'rah game played by Moridin. "The Fisher was always worked as a man, a bandage blinding his eyes and one hand pressed to his side, a few drops of blood dripping through his fingers." Also don't forget Mordeth, who will wait for him there.

Breaking the seals is easy, he will use the True Power.

[WhiskyJack]

Hi,

 

My simple thoughts.

 

1. "The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow."

2. "His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man’s salvation."

That is what The Karaethon Cycle, the Prophecies of the Dragon, says. Rand's unhealing wound will break open at Shayol Ghul, that was the very purpose of his wound.

Remember the sha'rah game played by Moridin. "The Fisher was always worked as a man, a bandage blinding his eyes and one hand pressed to his side, a few drops of blood dripping through his fingers." Also don't forget Mordeth, who will wait for him there.

Breaking the seals is easy, he will use the True Power.

 

 

True power to break the seals?

[Byzantine279]

Breaking the seals is very easy, he just needs to drop them.

 

I suspect Rand is wrong about his blood being spilled meaning he will die.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

What always puzzled me about the Seals is how the patch on the Bore continued to hold once the first Seal was broken. That suggests the Seals are holding the patch in place independently. I wonder if, once the first one was broken, the breaking of the rest of them became inevitable (even if it wouldn't be instantaneous), or if, had things turned out differently, the remaining Seals might have held indefinitely even if one or more of their number were broken. I wonder if they made seven in the first place just to be super-redundant, or if it took at least or exactly seven in order to apply the patch in the first place, even if, afterwards, any one of them could hold the patch by itself at least for a while.

 

And I wonder if the Seals always felt as though they were straining with evil, or if that is a sign of their weakening.

[Byzantine279]

As some seals where found without the strain present, such as the ones at Falme, it is a sign of the weakening.

 

I suspect that it took 7 seals to hold him back to a large degree, since the Forsaken broke out even before the first seal broke it is possible that any fewer seals and his escape becomes inevitable.

[Mats Spare Hat]

There is. The one Nynaeve and Elayne found in Tanchico was intact when they left, and at times during the trip to Salidar, they could feel evil emanating from it anytime they touched the purse it was in. The last time Nynaeve feels that sensation of evil, they're getting ready to leave Luca's show and board the rivership in Samara. They get to Salidar, and it's shattered, and there's no evil feeling anymore. Nothing in particular happened to any of the characters during that time. The closest big plot development was the Battle of Cairhien, and that happened before they left Luca's show. Unless you think the battle/riot in Samara was super-important for some reason, the only real explanation is that the thing just broke because it was so fragile.

 

 

Anyway: again, the books tell us flat-out that the discs are the focus points. They're not just some fancy AoL-concocted Defcon system or whatever. They're required for the patch to function.

 

 

You also know, as evidenced in TOM, that things can happen at the same time, in times chronologically different than chapter progression. Chapter x happens before chapter y doesn't mean everything in chapter x takes place before chapter y: Perrin in the wolfdream when Rand's on top of Dragonmount in TOM - you don't find it happened at the same time, until one book later, even though you read Rands perspective in TGS.

 

You bring up the closest development being the Battle of Cairhien in FoH. The Tanchico seal was found in TSR and isn't found to be broken until far into FoH after the ladies arrive in Salidar. In that timespan we also see Rand has broken the Aiel, and leads them across the dragonwall, and as you mentioned, the battle of cairhien.

 

"With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death." -Karaethon Prophesies

 

..That's prophesy being fulfilled, in a totally feasible time frame, corresponding with events in both Cairhien, and Salidar.

 

The disks are focal points. They may be required for the patch to function. It might be that they are indeed literally the seals in every conceptual sense, and the only way to break a seal is to fulfill a specific event/prophesy/what have you. In which case, Still: complete a task/fulfill a prophesy and it breaks a seal/breaks a disk. Having a disk in your possession on the other side of the world in an armor plated box full of goose feathers, isn't going to keep Rand from fulfilling prophesy, causing those seals, thereby the disks, to break as a result.

 

On Evil Feelings: They're feeling it, because the seal is getting weaker and it's connected to the DO. It's keeping him contained, and when that barrier's weakened they can feel that strain of his against that containment - except he can't break himself free, as seal breaking is dependent on the Dragon Reborn. They no longer feel those evil feelings, once the seal is broken, because it's now nothing more than a shattered piece of heartstone, without purpose or connection to the DO.

[smileyman]

 

 

There is. The one Nynaeve and Elayne found in Tanchico was intact when they left, and at times during the trip to Salidar, they could feel evil emanating from it anytime they touched the purse it was in. The last time Nynaeve feels that sensation of evil, they're getting ready to leave Luca's show and board the rivership in Samara. They get to Salidar, and it's shattered, and there's no evil feeling anymore. Nothing in particular happened to any of the characters during that time. The closest big plot development was the Battle of Cairhien, and that happened before they left Luca's show. Unless you think the battle/riot in Samara was super-important for some reason, the only real explanation is that the thing just broke because it was so fragile.

 

 

Nynaeve's and Elayne going to Salidar lead to Nynaeve healing stilling, which is a Pretty Big Deal. Long as they were kept away from Salidar, that part of Nynaeve's destiny wouldn't be fulfilled, but once they started on that path Nynaeve set out on the journey that would lead to the discovery of how to heal stilling, as well as how to heal the madness caused by the taint, both of which are major developments.

 

Not saying I agree with the theory, just pointing out that Nynaeve heading to Salidar is actually a rather important part of the story.

[Agitel]

Rand isn't going to reseal the bore. He's going to heal it. The Pattern needs to be fixed, not patched, before the Age of Legends comes again. Granted. that technically could happen over the next five Ages, but given the nature of this series I'm betting all the marbles that we'll see a total fix. Men and women need to work together to do it, though.

 

 

Heal how? How do you "fix" pattern?

 

That's the mystery, isn't it?

 

 

There wasn't a bore originally. It was created. My understanding of the Bore is that it's not a hole in the Pattern, but a loosening of the fabric, making the tapestry weaker and more likely to fall apart. Anyway, back to what I was saying, the Pattern was whole before the Bore, and it will have to be that way again by the time the AoL comes back. If he makes more seals it'll just be an imperfect fix.

[gumburcules]

I have two theories derived from lews therin statements ('something has to touch him' etc) with regard to how rand is going to seal the bore (not just patch it). It has to be the True Power that the DO grants moridin and thus is linked to rand (thus he cannot corrupt as it is himself)or the new pure light power thingy he has now that is typified in what Nyaneve sees in rands brain. He cannot use Callandor as that is linked to both saidin and saidar and thus can induce a 'backlash' like last time. The true source is the only option, so in essence the thing that seals the DO away is the DO....

[Omega]

I have two theories derived from lews therin statements ('something has to touch him' etc) with regard to how rand is going to seal the bore (not just patch it). It has to be the True Power that the DO grants moridin and thus is linked to rand (thus he cannot corrupt as it is himself)or the new pure light power thingy he has now that is typified in what Nyaneve sees in rands brain. He cannot use Callandor as that is linked to both saidin and saidar and thus can induce a 'backlash' like last time. The true source is the only option, so in essence the thing that seals the DO away is the DO....

 

I've been debating over that as well, but since the TP flows from the DO, can you really lock him away with it? It would be like the OP binding and sealing the Creator. It maybe possible, but it seems unlikely to me, especially with the DO. Now you might able to do something to him with it, but I don't think you can use the TP alone to seal him.

 

Not to mention the healing or patching of the bore itself. The TP is stated to destroy the pattern, and to rip holes in it. Seems like you'd just be making things worse that way.