Discuss The Seanchan/Fortuona

[FarShainMael]

During the negotiations at the field, his head will snap towards the WT

Rand isn't a psychic, nor precognitive in any way that we know of.

 

But he might be ta'veren enough to sense such a massive disturbance in the Force Pattern..

[blazetheearth]

During the negotiations at the field, his head will snap towards the WT

Rand isn't a psychic, nor precognitive in any way that we know of.

dissention towards the end between the women and men (which I am convinced was the work of a Darkfriend

If a Darkfriend, a very unfortunate one, since Latra Posae pretty much saved humanity along with saidar.

 

No evidence to support her saving either one. We do not know that saidar would have been tainted had both powers been used in the Sealing, and therefore no evidence that humanity would have died.

 

Remember, the Hundred Companions could NOT link with out women so the imperfect seals that were created were done w/ a hundred single weaves as opposed to a single weave comprising the strength of 100 men/women. It could have been a DF that caused her to hold back and refuse to join LTT to make sure that the Sealing would be imperfect so that the DO could break out again. Granted we don't know that having both powers would have worked better, but we don't know that it would have been worse either. With the Facts that we do know, it could have just as easily been DF influence, as opposed to Latra's stubborn pride.

[moratcorlm]

Well, we know, though Rand et al. do not, because RJ said so.

 

My personal theory regarding the Fateful Concord is that it was Lews Therin's ta'veren effect giving him what he needed. The plan itself was flawed – likely the Age Lace for the Second Age required it to be flawed, so the Third Age of partial sealing could succeed it – but it would be disastrous if he got what he wanted. And as Mick Sedai says, you can't always get what you want.

 

I mean, total opposition? Every single woman, including apparently his own wife, of what were probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of Aes Sedai, stood united against him? It's some kind of ta'veren effect, and he's the strongest one around.

[Erunion]

the average Da'covale [...] see Suroth's POV

You think Suroth is typical? Or that her slaves are?

The Tairens, at least, could leave. They were treated poorly, but not horrifically so.

You don't think regular rape is horrific?

They have the power to "play their own version of Daes'dae mar

This is not uncommon even in truly brutal slave systems in our world.

they own property, they seem to live well and have money. This is far, far better than being Da'covale.

Karede, for one, owns property and has money. Obviously he is one of the most powerful slaves in the Empire, but we do not know what the living conditions are for slaves between his elevated station and the lowly slave of a Darkfriend.

They aren't taxed as badly as the Tairens were, and have more mobility, but they aren't allowed to look even minor nobility in the eyes, let alone speak to them! If they breach these conditions, which from the POV of the Seanchan we've seen, would be unthinkable, they would likely be beaten. For looking someone in the eyes.

I didn't say the Seanchan were perfect or even good. Societies have all sorts of weird practices for displaying subservience.

Your idea of secret police in every modern society is absolute hogwash.

What exactly do you think CSIS is? Do you think Canada is not party to things like UKUSA surveillance? "Secret police" is not limited to describing organizations like the Stasi any more than "slavery" is limited to describing practices like those in the United States.

The seekers are brutal, evil and unparalleled in Randland.

This simply is not true. The practice of "putting to the question" suspects is widespread, and indeed many Aes Sedai are practiced in torture, and nobody bats an eye at it.

Also, on your point about the Borderlanders putting up with tyrants, a tyrant would have to be very careful in the borderlands, where 90% of all civilians are skilled, armed militia!

I'd take Faile's word that it has happened over your supposition that it would be impossible and therefore cannot have happened. Her reasoning is that armed revolt or civil war are unthinkable because of the Trolloc threat, so people must submit.

For my references on Borderlanders, see "New Spring"

Also interesting, on a different note, in New Spring is Lan's belief that Edeyn was trying to have him assassinated. This is very telling about exactly how much Borderlander honor means, and one of the foundations to my belief that their society is little more egalitarian than that of the South.

 

To counter your points, yes, I do think that Suroth is typical, and that her slaves are. Why wouldn't they be? Certainly, Suroth is likely harsher than some, as that is her personality, but all seanchan slaves we have seen, save for the few exceptions in the Deathwatch Guard and the hereditary upper servants, are treated with absolute contempt and are totally subservient. I see no reason to suspect that they are not treated like Suroth's servants are.

 

Yes, regular rape is horrific. But in Tear, the families can hide or try to flee, or leave the country outright. (And now, with Rand's reforms, they can press charges against the nobility). In Seanchan, a man is considered a pervert if he sleeps with a Damane, but that is not because they are property, but because they are chained and can channel. And guess what? It still happens. Considering the robes and treatment of "cupbearers", I would think it likely that rape of property is normal. Frankly, this absolutely disgusts me, just as the treatment of the Tairens disgusts me. At least the Tairens were already forced to change! The Seanchan have yet to change.

 

We do not know exactly what living conditions for the average slave are, but we can guess based on the facts we know. The slaves in Tuon's ship (in WH) act exactly like the slaves in Suroth's company. This is expected, and from the punishments we've seen, both of Suroth's slaves and of the Damane, it is logical that extreme corporal punishment for minor infractions is the norm, rather than the exception, as it is all we have seen among the Seanchan.

 

Yes, societies have weird ways of showing subservience. The Seanchan methods are extreme, and brutal.

 

Secret police is limited to groups like the Stasi or the Gestapo. The word for CSIS and other organizations is Intelligence Agency. Secret Police are constantly looking among their own citizens for infractions against the state, and have the power and authority to make citizens disappear, and torture them. CSIS does not have that kind of authority or mandate. As far as I am aware, no modern democratic society has that kind of power and that mandate.

 

Yes, putting prisoners of war and sometimes darkfriends to the question does happen. Some societies, like pre-Rand Tear, may have put regular civilians to the question. The Seekers are a constant terror to every citizen of Seanchan. From the POV's that mention Seekers, and from what we know of them, they have absolute power save where the Empress is concerned. They can question anyone, and are only responsible for their actions if they are proven wrong. While isolated cases of torture in order to gain important tactical advantage do happen (the Aiel occasionally torture POW's in order to find out more about defenses, and this seems to be an acceptable action among most Randlander societies), the rampant questioning and terrorizing of civilians by an omnipresent secret police? That is unheard of. (The closest we get are the Questioners in Amadicia, and they don't appear to be nearly as pervasive or terrifying as the Seekers are shown to be).

 

What Faile says is that there have been Tyrants who rule in Borderland nations, as an armed revolt would expose the Borderlanders to invasion. But what is a Tyrant?

 

(tī'rənt) pronunciation

n.

 

1. An absolute ruler who governs without restrictions.

2. A ruler who exercises power in a harsh, cruel manner.

3. An oppressive, harsh, arbitrary person.

 

A Tyrant is a person who oppresses a nation, typically by self-serving political and economic decisions, by ruling without restrictions. The implication of Faile's statement is also that a Tyrant is a rarity rather than a norm. My point was that, while taxes may be high and the law relatively unjust during the rule of a tyrant, the constantly militarized Borderland populace would be very difficult to individually oppress. In Tear, only nobles were allowed to bear arms, and this lead to a society where the commoner had no powers of self-defense at all (much like Seanchan society, where if a commoner strikes one of the blood his or her life is forfeit, where no commoner is allowed to spill a drop of noble blood) and as such, was unable to prevent atrocities being committed to his or her family by the local nobility. In the borderlands, commoners have the means and training to defend themselves, so beatings, rape and other such atrocities would be very rarely committed by the nobility, as they would not be able to get away with it.

 

For your final point, no, the borderlands are not free of political maneuvering. However, as is reinforced time and again, the borderlands do not have the opportunity for more than a minimum of political maneuvering. As we have seen from Faile's and Lan's POV's, and from what we have heard from borderlanders, political maneuvering is the rarity rather than the norm. In the south, it is the norm. In Seanchan, where the royal family is expected to kill each other off until only the most skilled is left standing, it is the rule.

 

 

 

My point is not that Randlander societies are wonderful and amazing (they aren't, indeed, they are pretty messed up for the most part), but that they are superior to the Seanchan society, which is, by modern standards, a horrific society.

[Mulk]

Well, we know, though Rand et al. do not, because RJ said so.

 

My personal theory regarding the Fateful Concord is that it was Lews Therin's ta'veren effect giving him what he needed. The plan itself was flawed – likely the Age Lace for the Second Age required it to be flawed, so the Third Age of partial sealing could succeed it – but it would be disastrous if he got what he wanted. And as Mick Sedai says, you can't always get what you want.

 

I mean, total opposition? Every single woman, including apparently his own wife, of what were probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of Aes Sedai, stood united against him? It's some kind of ta'veren effect, and he's the strongest one around.

 

I like that.

 

I don't think you can say so simply that Latra saved humanity and saidar by what she did. In fact, you might say that she indirectly caused the Breaking by refusing to discuss any alteration to the plan. Humanity was doomed unless the Bore was closed soon, somehow. That humanity survived long enough for the Breaking to occur was LTT and the Hundred Companions' doing, along with the military that went with them.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think that the next Breaking analogous to what happened to end the Second Age will occur not at or after Tarmon Gaidon, but at the end of the Fifth or Sixth Age, and that would be the calamity by which they lose the ability or knowledge of the One Power. Maybe tech advances to the point that humans nuke themselves or something. If there is to have been enough time to pass for it to have all but passed out of knowledge, the Seventh Age is too recent, as is the First. Theoretically, Rand as LTT would have some faint knowledge of the history from the First Age, since there has been no warfare to destroy records in so long, and a thing like the Breaking won't pass from memory in the life of one age - WoT is proof of that, since the Breaking happened an Age ago and EVERYONE knows about that.

 

Just rambling. I'll end my sidebar here and redirect back to the Seanchan. :)

 

I get the weird feeling that the Seanchan will attack and find the WT almost completely deserted. Either that or they will send an envoy with demands that will come across the meeting, somehow. I can't see there being another running fight in the WT, with one each in the last two books, though if it does, it might possible destroy the WT as a place, which could indirectly lead to the AS reunifying (male and female) to rebuild. I can't foresee any circumstance by which Rand will gain what he needs from the Seanchan and leave channelers free of the leash or death by bowing to them, though. He will need to have the upper hand somehow.

[DemandredFO]

If Setalle were made truthspeaker, I'm sure she'd get her head chopped off in short order. I know truthspeakers are supposed to be safe but as Rhuarc said about the peace of Rhuidean, accidents have been known to happen.

Whatever happens at the tower the AS can't win, Egwene already has way to many things fall into her lap. The fact alone that she didn't end up like Nicola when she was in TAR when the WO said no is enough to show she's been way to lucky.

Even though Aviendha's Rhuidean vision says the Aiel weren't included in the Dragon's Peace, I can see AS going against Rand before the Aiel.

[Ltsegarra]

Another sign that gives me great hope for the Seanchan is in Perrin's own dealing with them. Unlike the Whitecloaks at the Battle at Two Rivers, the Seanvhan enters into an agreement with Perrin to share battle with him. Perrin is even able to wrestle an oath from the Seanchan general whatever her name was. For all intents and purpose, Jordan shows that unlike many of the higher ups in Seanchan society, the "grunts" or regular folk tends to deal with others even those not of the nation honestly and straightforward.

I tend to think this is the primary reason that Jordan has included characters like Perrin and Mat. It's because of their personal abilities to related on a more personal level with their perspective "armies" unlike the Dragon Reborn. While Mat is being groomed as a tactician, Perrin's own armies incorporates wide ranging talents and alliances, even some with the enemies.

[Agelmar]

If Setalle were made truthspeaker, I'm sure she'd get her head chopped off in short order. I know truthspeakers are supposed to be safe but as Rhuarc said about the peace of Rhuidean, accidents have been known to happen.

Whatever happens at the tower the AS can't win, Egwene already has way to many things fall into her lap. The fact alone that she didn't end up like Nicola when she was in TAR when the WO said no is enough to show she's been way to lucky.

Even though Aviendha's Rhuidean vision says the Aiel weren't included in the Dragon's Peace, I can see AS going against Rand before the Aiel.

 

That seems like the key problem with his plan. The Aes Sedai and the societies that integrate their channelers (the Aiel and Sea Folk) are never going to find permanent peace with the Seanchan while they keep damane. Perhaps Aviendha decides the best way to prevent the dystopian future she saw is by helping Mat and Tuon dismantle that system? (That's hardly a given. Tuon as marath'damane has every incentive to suppress knowledge of the nature of sul'dam and the acceptance of assassination as a method of succession gives the High Blood just below her strong incentive to disrupt any attempt she or any other Emperor to undermine a pretty foundational part of Seanchan society.)

[moratcorlm]

To counter your points, yes, I do think that Suroth is typical, and that her slaves are.

We do not know exactly what living conditions for the average slave are, but we can guess based on the facts we know.

But these are not arguments based on fact, but suppositions based largely on our own prejudices. I don't really have a great interest in discussing that sort of thing.

But in Tear, the families can hide or try to flee, or leave the country outright.

Um, well, the kind of rape shown to be practiced by Mat's friends in Tear, or Lord Nasin in Andor, or whatever lords in Randland you choose, is not political. It's not a punishment for anything, and it's not directed at any families in particular. It's just how lords find sex partners.

And guess what? It still happens. Considering the robes and treatment of "cupbearers", I would think it likely that rape of property is normal.

Again, if you say so. The one data point we have for people wearing those robes, Thera, does not ever claim to have been raped.

Secret police is limited to groups like the Stasi or the Gestapo. The word for CSIS and other organizations is Intelligence Agency. [...] modern democratic society

Well, that's an admirably patriotic distinction to make. As I said, an odd one, given how you're downplaying distinctions elsewhere, and one I suspect most political scientists would not agree with you about, but one you of course are free to make. Also, as a minor point, I merely said 'modern', not 'modern democratic'; there are plenty of modern forms of government that are not democratic, and in fact postdate by a considerable amount of time democratic republicanism, much less your own constitutional monarchy.

Some societies, like pre-Rand Tear, may have put regular civilians to the question.

Andor is the only country shown to have any restrictions placed on the arbitrary use of torture... and while people may have been offended by its use during Gaebril's ascendancy, there is no sign it was considered wrong. The Aes Sedai are just about the only other outpost of any kind of liberalism in Randland, and they have no qualms about its use. People from plenty of countries are shown practicing torture. But if this is to become just another argument about what we "expect" and "guess"...

The Seekers are a constant terror to every citizen of Seanchan.

Nonsense. The Seekers concern themselves with enemies of the state, and lacking the kind of total surveillance any modern government (democratic or otherwise) can bring into play, they would practically concern themselves only with the plots of those with the means to plot. That is not everyone in Seanchan. That is a tiny, tiny minority.

A Tyrant is a person who oppresses a nation [...] the constantly militarized Borderland populace would be very difficult to individually oppress.

So you admit the nation is oppressed, but not the individuals? You think she's just speaking about high taxes here?

In the borderlands, commoners have the means and training to defend themselves, so beatings, rape and other such atrocities would be very rarely committed by the nobility, as they would not be able to get away with it.

Well, again, if you say so. Lacking any textual evidence at all, I don't really want to debate fanfic.

from what we have heard from borderlanders, political maneuvering is the rarity rather than the norm. In the south, it is the norm.

Well, the "Game of Houses" is absent, supposedly, but that hardly encompasses all political maneuvering... and in fact does not seem too closely fitted to what we have seen of Seanchan politicking, between Suroth and Galgan, and Galgan and Tuon, for that matter. I specifically mentioned Lan's total lack of surprise when considering that Edeyn would assassinate him as telling of how political maneuvering seems to be played in the Borderlands.

 

My point is not that Seanchan is wonderful and amazing (it isn't, indeed, it's pretty messed up for the most part), but that it is superior to Randland society, which is, by modern standards, pretty horrible. In any case, this tête-à-tête is getting rather repetitive, so lacking any new textual evidence to argue over I think I'm done here.

[Agelmar]

The Seekers are a constant terror to every citizen of Seanchan.

Nonsense. The Seekers concern themselves with enemies of the state, and lacking the kind of total surveillance any modern government (democratic or otherwise) can bring into play, they would practically concern themselves only with the plots of those with the means to plot. That is not everyone in Seanchan. That is a tiny, tiny minority.

 

You missed the key distinction. American (and as I understand it, Canadian) intelligence is bifurcated between foreign intelligence and domestic so that we can protect our own citizens from them. And of course the 4th Amendment, et al. are for much the same purpose. That is why your supposed "enemy of the state" distinction is a bit silly. It is made clear that "enemy of the state" is defined at the Seeker of the Truth's discretion. One need only re-read Egeanin's POVs from her encounter with the Seeker to feel the raw terror they produce. They are free to spread that anywhere they choose with no restraints. And as we saw from the Seeker who visited Egeanin, they are not immune to wild conspiracy theories. You seems to have a strange reliance on the benevolence of the Seanchan--you operate under the assumption that they will use their power for good. This flies in the face of A) human history and B) the actual actions of the Seanchan in the books. I'm unsurprised that B doesn't move you, because you've demonstrated a complete inability to remember much at all about the Seanchan. Given that your amnesia extends beyond every bad behavior ever demonstrated by the Seanchan to any number of facts about the Randland societies (while retaining a mysterious retention of bad behavior), I suspect it is less due to lack of familiarity with the books and more due to design. I frankly don't have time to play your game and dig through 12 books to provide citations to the behavior you claim not to remember. Between your selective memory and refusal to admit to a characterization of any society to a realworld equivalent, it's no wonder you find attempts to refute your positions inadequate.

[Zentari]

My point is not that Seanchan is wonderful and amazing (it isn't, indeed, it's pretty messed up for the most part), but that it is superior to Randland society, which is, by modern standards, pretty horrible. In any case, this tête-à-tête is getting rather repetitive, so lacking any new textual evidence to argue over I think I'm done here.

Seanchan practice by FAR the most horrid type of slavery , that of the a'dam.You can prance around the issue if you want but there is a single fact that makes counter arguments moot : After they are reduced to pets , someone STILL get's to wield the power that they are supposedly collared for.

Inhuman, ruthless and ineffectual too.

 

Rape is not mentioned, that is true but ask yourself this: can someone rape an object ?

 

Any society which crashes the individual is not a good one.Oh , it can be a VERY effective one but never a good one.Out of all the cultures we are introduced to, no one even comes close to what the Seanchan do when it comes down to suppression.

[Erunion]

Thank you Agelmar and Zentari.

 

Moratcorlm, I admire the Seanchan's bureaucratic efficiency and their excellent, merit-based military but their society is not better than the societies that exist in Randland.

 

However, I agree with you on this, this discussion is not being terribly fruitful.

[moratcorlm]

You missed the key distinction. American (and as I understand it, Canadian) intelligence is bifurcated between foreign intelligence and domestic so that we can protect our own citizens from them.

If you rewrite that as "theoretically bifurcated in some ways" that would be more accurate. And with multilateral intelligence-sharing operations even much of that distinction is lost.

Egeanin's POVs from her encounter with the Seeker to feel the raw terror they produce.

Egeanin is of the aristocracy and a naval Captain; she is herself of that tiny minority. And it's hardly a surprise that Egeanin the traitor should feel terror! Lady Morsa would have made a better example for you.

it's no wonder you find attempts to refute your positions inadequate.

Thanks for the justification, bucko.

Seanchan practice by FAR the most horrid type of slavery , that of the a'dam.You can prance around the issue if you want but there is a single fact that makes counter arguments moot

I haven't "pranced around" damane, nor defended their keeping, as most of my posts have been in comparing how people live under the various governments and this is an obvious difference in terms of facts; all that can be done is moralize arbitrarily. If you find the keeping of damane "horrid", good for you.

[Erunion]

Really, the distinction is this - We assume the worst in regards to Da'covale where facts aren't explicitly given (we consider the Da'covale to be treated only marginally better than the Damane), while you assume the best about Da'covale (you consider them to be a late Ottoman style slavery, as opposed to a more brutal form) while assuming the worst about Randlander societies that we haven't been explicitly told about (where we assume the best, or at least better).

Both sides of this argument have compiled a great deal of evidence supporting their opinions, but in the end, these are opinions. You will not change mine (as I am right, obviously ) while you will not change yours (because you are right, also obviously ). This is the classic tragedy of online debates!

 

Frankly, is there any point in continuing?

[Exy]

I know I'm replying to a zombie thread, but I'm near the end of rereading The Great Hunt and I had forgotten how brutal the Seanchan were on Toman Head. (This can't be blamed on Suroth, either, since it was before Rand killed Turak.)

 

The Seanchan allowed the people a relatively high degree of freedom after they conquered -- but only once they completely destroyed the local governments of every village. There's one village that Rand's crew passes through on their way to Falme where the entire village council was murdered by the Seanchan along with their families, including children. I guess maybe the mayor didn't bend knee fast enough and so the Seanchan decided to show everybody what was up.

 

It was sort of sad for the residents of Toman Head, really. On one hand, the Seanchan are murdering people freely and frequently. And from the other direction come Whitecloaks doing the same thing.

[Moments]

I have a feeling that however Sanderson sums up the Seanchan's stance on collaring women, it'll be anti-climactic to say the least. Tuon showed no interest in abandoning the practice even over the course of two books (CoT, KoD), so I can't see her giving over gradually during the events of one book. She's going to capture the White Tower and somehow, Egwene will use her fabled unbreakable spirit to show Tuon that channelers aren't animals.

[Kestrel]

I have a feeling that however Sanderson sums up the Seanchan's stance on collaring women, it'll be anti-climactic to say the least. Tuon showed no interest in abandoning the practice even over the course of two books (CoT, KoD), so I can't see her giving over gradually during the events of one book. She's going to capture the White Tower and somehow, Egwene will use her fabled unbreakable spirit to show Tuon that channelers aren't animals.

Of course we all seem to believe that Fortuona is cooking up anti-White Tower battle plans based on her own biases and prophesies.

 

But if you're reading carefully, you'll see a clue that maybe Fortuona's true perspective is not quite so rigid and bloodthirsty as it appears:

 

Page 829: "[Graendal] was in her elegant manor house a few leagues from Ebou Dar. Now that Semirhage was gone, Graendal had begun placing some strings around their new, childlike Empress. She'd have to abandon those schemes now."

 

What this means: We can anticipate Fortuona will have a sudden awakening moment followed by "What the h-ll was I thinking?"

[moratcorlm]

I've been hoping that that's the explanation for the weird turn her characterization took under Sanderson and in particular in TOM, and that line does give some credence to the Compelled-Tuon argument, but I'm not holding my breath to be proven right.

[Moments]

I have a feeling that however Sanderson sums up the Seanchan's stance on collaring women, it'll be anti-climactic to say the least. Tuon showed no interest in abandoning the practice even over the course of two books (CoT, KoD), so I can't see her giving over gradually during the events of one book. She's going to capture the White Tower and somehow, Egwene will use her fabled unbreakable spirit to show Tuon that channelers aren't animals.

Of course we all seem to believe that Fortuona is cooking up anti-White Tower battle plans based on her own biases and prophesies.

 

But if you're reading carefully, you'll see a clue that maybe Fortuona's true perspective is not quite so rigid and bloodthirsty as it appears:

 

Page 829: "[Graendal] was in her elegant manor house a few leagues from Ebou Dar. Now that Semirhage was gone, Graendal had begun placing some strings around their new, childlike Empress. She'd have to abandon those schemes now."

 

What this means: We can anticipate Fortuona will have a sudden awakening moment followed by "What the h-ll was I thinking?"

 

Hmm. Are you proposing that Tuon might come to her senses and abolish the practice entirely? If so, I'm not certain that I agree. It's a custom that's existed for millenia in the Seanchan culture. The absence of Graendal's 'strings' might make her more pliable in terms of actually cooperating with other monarchs for the Last Battle, but I doubt it has anything to do with her continued vehemence regarding the collaring of women. As far as we know, Graendal had no contact with Tuon during her time spent with Mat, and yet Tuon doesn't budge an inch about the issue, even in face of learning she has the ability to learn to channel. Assuming Semirhage had those same 'strings' attached to her makes sense, but in truth she's no more rigid or bloodthirsty about the whole deal than any other Seanchan Blood or commoner. Heck, she's less insistent about the practice than half the damane.

 

I've been hoping that that's the explanation for the weird turn her characterization took under Sanderson and in particular in TOM' date=' and that line does give some credence to the Compelled-Tuon argument, but I'm not holding my breath to be proven right.[/quote']

 

That would suck for Mat, assuming we've been dealing with a Compelled Tuon under Jordan this whole time. He fell in love with a girl whose personality is based around Compulsion. This is, of course, assuming that her frigid attitude is a result of the weave, which I highly doubt it is. Compulsion hasn't been documented in any of the books to change personality aside from erasing it entirely, has it?

 

Either way, it wouldn't make sense for Tuon's personality to be subject to the Compulsion when she can still be kind and warm toward others (Noal, regarding his lost wife, Karede regarding his lost family). I think the change in character is just Sanderson's interpretation of her. It's tough to emulate a character that isn't yours perfectly, but I think Sanderson could have done just a little better job on a couple of them. Ah, well.

[moratcorlm]

That would suck for Mat, assuming we've been dealing with a Compelled Tuon under Jordan this whole time. He fell in love with a girl whose personality is based around Compulsion. This is, of course, assuming that her frigid attitude is a result of the weave, which I highly doubt it is.

"Frigid"? Tuon was not "frigid" in WH, COT, or KOD; while she affected sternness, and was certainly in truth highly devoted to duty, her personality was playful and competitive. The self-absorption and simple vanity which she displays in TOM47 is nowhere in evidence in either her or Mat's POVs earlier. I do not believe she was under Compulsion at this time; she has the strength of will to resist it, and Semirhage calls her "willful and obdurate"... though that is somewhat equivocal. It's true that Graendal is better at the weave than Semirhage, but if she could resist Rand I suspect she could resist Graendal's "strings".

Compulsion hasn't been documented in any of the books to change personality aside from erasing it entirely, has it?

I suppose that depends on how you define personality, and for that matter change. Is Sashalle Anderley's personality changed now that she's "preaching the Dragon Reborn like a street-corner demagogue"? What about Morgase's when Rahvin made her submissive and kittenish? The High Lady Alteima, under Graendal?

You are joyful at seeing me, ecstatic. All you want is to please me and answer my questions truthfully.” Nynaeve nodded vigorously, smiling even more rapturously than before. Elayne realized that she was, too. She was sure she could answer the questions first. Anything to please this woman.

Though, Compulsion can be rejected, and it can be argued that this is just an overlay on the true personality.

I think the change in character is just Sanderson's interpretation of her.

Yes, I think this is most likely.

[Moments]

"Frigid"? Tuon was not "frigid" in WH, COT, or KOD; while she affected sternness, and was certainly in truth highly devoted to duty, her personality was playful and competitive.

 

Eh, you're right. I suppose 'frigid' was a poor adjective to describe her behavior. You could say that she simply was more... something around Mat. A term escapes me. Probably due to the hour. She gives commiseration to others, yet never offers Mat any. I'm not entirely sure if I can remember any instance of outright kindness showed by her to him. After Mat has Renna killed, Tuon just tells him it had to be done, and after he almost dies to the random Darkfriend girl in the alley, she just looks at him and nods. A bit different than patting Noal on the shoulder about his wife and giving Karede comforting words/praise about his family's death/honor.

[Erunion]

"Frigid"? Tuon was not "frigid" in WH, COT, or KOD; while she affected sternness, and was certainly in truth highly devoted to duty, her personality was playful and competitive.

 

Eh, you're right. I suppose 'frigid' was a poor adjective to describe her behavior. You could say that she simply was more... something around Mat. A term escapes me. Probably due to the hour. She gives commiseration to others, yet never offers Mat any. I'm not entirely sure if I can remember any instance of outright kindness showed by her to him. After Mat has Renna killed, Tuon just tells him it had to be done, and after he almost dies to the random Darkfriend girl in the alley, she just looks at him and nods. A bit different than patting Noal on the shoulder about his wife and giving Karede comforting words/praise about his family's death/honor.

 

I would say that is simply Tuon's ability to read people. Mat has the personality where commiseration in those circumstances would be at best, counterproductive.

I hope to see more of Tuon, and find out what's going on there. I've always thought highly of her as a character (she is just and fair, always striving to be the best she can be for her people, her main fault is her difficulty in understanding other cultures and points of view, which can be overcome), and sincerely hope that there is a good reason for any of the negative changes in her character we've seen in the last two books (and if they are real, that they don't last).

[Lambada]

First post in a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.

 

I can see two possibilities for how this will turn out.

 

Dream Spikes can stop gateways forming. Depending on the time-lines (of which I am highly uncertain), the Black Tower 'rent in blood and fire' could be resolved, and the Dreamspike there taken to the White Tower for examination (something Egwene will undoubtably order if she hears of this ter'angreal) - she already knows that something affected T'a'R in her battle with Messaana. Thus forcing the Seanchan to appear outside Tar Valon, certainly outside the Tower. Commence the standard attack and the Tower under Egwene winning fairly easily.

 

Or

 

They Gateway to the Tower, but Egwene has taken all the Aes Sedai to the Fields of Merrilor. The Seanchan hold the Tower and its sa'angreal (assuming Egwene hasn't armed her Aes Sedai for this confrontation with Rand). How it gets resolved after that is anyones guess - perhaps the Aes Sedai sense all the gateways and return complete with everyone there...

 

Again, that depends on the Timeline. If only Coopers Timeline had been updated for ToM.

 

 

As you can tell, I don't think that the Seanchan will 'win' this attack (as determined by number of Aes Sedai leashed), although I concede that they may take the Tower. Why? Simply put, time. There is not enough time left for Fortuona to win this attack, receive the ego boost that brings, and then humble herself before being bound to Rand. Nor is there enough time for Rand, Egwene et al to launch a revenge attack on the Seanchan to force Fortuona to be bound to him. However, if she looses this attack, then that could be humbling itself to make her consider trying to forge an alliance with him once again.

[wvlr2]

I would say that is simply Tuon's ability to read people. Mat has the personality where commiseration in those circumstances would be at best, counterproductive.

I hope to see more of Tuon, and find out what's going on there. I've always thought highly of her as a character (she is just and fair, always striving to be the best she can be for her people, her main fault is her difficulty in understanding other cultures and points of view, which can be overcome), and sincerely hope that there is a good reason for any of the negative changes in her character we've seen in the last two books (and if they are real, that they don't last).

I absolutely do not understand this view of Tuon. This is a woman who in just her first few POVs not only forced a woman (that Tuon was party to painfully enslaving on an A'dam) to tell her fortune, then had the woman beaten because she did not like what she heard.

 

She took pride in "breaking" an AS to the A'dam.

 

I do not see that she has changed significantly - except to become more hypocritical than most of her citizens and gain more power - neither of which is a good thing.

[Erunion]

Just as a preface, I think that the keeping and treatment of both Damane and Da'covale is horrible. I've argued against it, and I believe that the Seanchan must change.

However, this is not a problem with Tuon personally, this is a cultural problem. Tuon's actions and beliefs are merely a symptom of this cultural problem, and if the cultural problem is fixed, so too will the symptoms thereof.

 

Your statement is a little bit inaccurate - Tuon's Damane loved her (as is witnessed when she disappears and all of her Damane are desperate to get her back). She had one of her Damane tell her fortune, than out of shock and anger had her beaten. She then realized what she did was wrong, ensured that the Damane received favourable treatment and considered herself shamed by her ill-behavior (hence the veil). While Tuon thoroughly believed in her culture's practices (which most here consider abominable) that is because she has grown up in a land where they are acceptable and right. While still within the framework of her flawed culture, she seems to be far kinder to her Damane than most (evidenced by a) their love for her, and b) her actually trying to make amends for the beating she delivered in ill-temper, something that I doubt many other Seanchan would even have considered).

 

Yes, she enjoys breaking Marath'Damane to the A'dam, but that is because she doesn't consider them to be truly human. Many people take great pleasure from training a dog or a horse, but that does not make them evil.

 

Yes, Tuon's (/Fortuona's) actions are wrong, but that is not because she is an evil person by nature, rather she has been raised to rule a society where things we consider atrocities are considered both right and just.

Tuon is a good person, she just has wrong beliefs.