A Memory of Light Speculation

[wcbrooks]

 

OOH! I like this... I would also like to see Moridin turned away from the shadow since he was shown to not really be "evil" in the traditional sense but he just joined the Shadow because he had given up hope

 

 

I thought we was really evil...he did not give up on hope...he betrayed other peoples hope...hence the name 'Betrayer of Hope'

He changed sides because he thought the Light was the losers side and the Dark One was true (or something like that)

[Naggash]

 

OOH! I like this... I would also like to see Moridin turned away from the shadow since he was shown to not really be "evil" in the traditional sense but he just joined the Shadow because he had given up hope

 

 

I thought we was really evil...he did not give up on hope...he betrayed other peoples hope...hence the name 'Betrayer of Hope'

He changed sides because he thought the Light was the losers side and the Dark One was true (or something like that)

 

Elan Morin Tedronai (if I remember it correctly) was the most prominent philosopher in the AoL. His line of thoughts is this: As the Wheel turns, Ages come and go in an eternal loop. There was room for small changes but overall each Age was "predefined". So when in aMoL they seal the DO, there will come another AoL and another Breaking, and so on.

BUT if the DO actually wins he will unravel the Pattern and "kill" the Great Serpent (end of Ouroboros, end of time). So in sheer logic, as long as the Light wins the DO will have another chance to rule, but when the DO wins it will be the ultimate win.

 

This is why Elan turned to the Shadow. So the person you're quoting is right, he just gave up hope because he didn't see any chance of the Light winning, he saw that in the end the DO will raise victorious.

 

EDIT: Forgot to include this: He is known as Betrayer of Hope because he betrayed the Light in a clue battel (or maybe chain of battles), and as LTT sais that they Hope seemed to die. He DID evil things for the Shadow, but HE isn't evil. In fact I find his desperation in tGS and ToM quit parallelistic to Rand himself in tGS. They're both resigned, thinking they do what must be done for there is no other way.

[wcbrooks]

 

OOH! I like this... I would also like to see Moridin turned away from the shadow since he was shown to not really be "evil" in the traditional sense but he just joined the Shadow because he had given up hope

 

 

I thought we was really evil...he did not give up on hope...he betrayed other peoples hope...hence the name 'Betrayer of Hope'

He changed sides because he thought the Light was the losers side and the Dark One was true (or something like that)

 

Elan Morin Tedronai (if I remember it correctly) was the most prominent philosopher in the AoL. His line of thoughts is this: As the Wheel turns, Ages come and go in an eternal loop. There was room for small changes but overall each Age was "predefined". So when in aMoL they seal the DO, there will come another AoL and another Breaking, and so on.

BUT if the DO actually wins he will unravel the Pattern and "kill" the Great Serpent (end of Ouroboros, end of time). So in sheer logic, as long as the Light wins the DO will have another chance to rule, but when the DO wins it will be the ultimate win.

 

This is why Elan turned to the Shadow. So the person you're quoting is right, he just gave up hope because he didn't see any chance of the Light winning, he saw that in the end the DO will raise victorious.

 

EDIT: Forgot to include this: He is known as Betrayer of Hope because he betrayed the Light in a clue battel (or maybe chain of battles), and as LTT sais that they Hope seemed to die. He DID evil things for the Shadow, but HE isn't evil. In fact I find his desperation in tGS and ToM quit parallelistic to Rand himself in tGS. They're both resigned, thinking they do what must be done for there is no other way.

 

so it was a logical choice he made not because of losing hope - to me they are different things

 

So Rand and Ishmael are "two sides of a coin" - thats pretty logical..but he DID evil things for the Shadow and he was not Evil - thats hard to believe if you did something that is evil that makes you evil....and in saying that then all the characters are not evil but just doing evil things...hahaha

[Kahsm]

 

OOH! I like this... I would also like to see Moridin turned away from the shadow since he was shown to not really be "evil" in the traditional sense but he just joined the Shadow because he had given up hope

 

 

I thought we was really evil...he did not give up on hope...he betrayed other peoples hope...hence the name 'Betrayer of Hope'

He changed sides because he thought the Light was the losers side and the Dark One was true (or something like that)

 

Elan Morin Tedronai (if I remember it correctly) was the most prominent philosopher in the AoL. His line of thoughts is this: As the Wheel turns, Ages come and go in an eternal loop. There was room for small changes but overall each Age was "predefined". So when in aMoL they seal the DO, there will come another AoL and another Breaking, and so on.

BUT if the DO actually wins he will unravel the Pattern and "kill" the Great Serpent (end of Ouroboros, end of time). So in sheer logic, as long as the Light wins the DO will have another chance to rule, but when the DO wins it will be the ultimate win.

 

This is why Elan turned to the Shadow. So the person you're quoting is right, he just gave up hope because he didn't see any chance of the Light winning, he saw that in the end the DO will raise victorious.

 

EDIT: Forgot to include this: He is known as Betrayer of Hope because he betrayed the Light in a clue battel (or maybe chain of battles), and as LTT sais that they Hope seemed to die. He DID evil things for the Shadow, but HE isn't evil. In fact I find his desperation in tGS and ToM quit parallelistic to Rand himself in tGS. They're both resigned, thinking they do what must be done for there is no other way.

 

so it was a logical choice he made not because of losing hope - to me they are different things

 

So Rand and Ishmael are "two sides of a coin" - thats pretty logical..but he DID evil things for the Shadow and he was not Evil - thats hard to believe if you did something that is evil that makes you evil....and in saying that then all the characters are not evil but just doing evil things...hahaha

 

But if you can logic into something, you can probably be logic-ed out of it. Which is different from just being greedy or something based on a blind faith.

 

Think of him like House (the former TV doctor). Evil/Good isn't relevant, it's just logical/illogical. So if he Rand could convince Moridin that he's wrong. He wouldn't feel any remorse for what he had done, he'd just accept a new version of truth and go from there.

[FarShainMael]

A thought occurred to me about the nature of Rand's access to the TP. Recall that he found it in his desperation to escape from the dom band before Semi forced him to kill Min. The question has been, was that by accident or design?

 

I think it was accidental, and here's why. On another thread, I explored what might happen if someone (eg Lanfear) succeeds in dragging Rand to SG and getting him Turned:

 

http://www.dragonmou...40#entry2290197

 

The thing is, the Turning will result in Rand becoming the willing minion of the DO.. so why bother with using Semi to try to tempt him with the TP before he gets to SG?

[Naggash]

IMO it's pretty much clear that Rand access TP through his link to Moridin. It was not an intended bait for tempting him. The fact that Semirhage sais 'why have you betrayed me Great Lord' only means that she thought this was the case, not that it was true. It's the same as with 'the fact that the voice is real doesn't make it better'. We know she didn't lie, she didn't have reason for it, but we also know she was wrong. She just believed it.

[TristanWebb]

Re Colinda, the channelling wise one..

http://encyclopaedia.../c/colinda.html

 

While reminding myself of some of Min's Viewings, I came across this, which took place just after Rand ( who is resting after struggling with LTT and saidar in LoC49) is thoroughly examined by the Wise Ones Sorilea, Amys, Bair, and Colinda:

 

Once Sorilea and the rest reluctantly concluded that all he needed was rest, and departed ordering him to see that he got it, Min made herself comfortable on his lap again. "They talk in dreams?" she said, shaking her head. "It doesn't seem possible, like something out of a story." A frown creased her forehead. "How old do you think Sorilea is? And that Colinda. I saw - No. No, it doesn't have anything to do with you. Maybe the heat is affecting me. When I know, I always know. It must be the heat."

 

Earlier we meet Colinda in the Royal Library, where she is in a group who are watchng for Nesune, who is interested in the seals (LoC25). Later on she is routing various AS to Verin for questioning. And that's about the last we see of her.

 

So I'm wondering what's going on with Min's Viewing of her. None of her Viewings are insignificant. What exactly did Min see? Was it that Colinda was unbelievably old? Something to do with Dreamwalking? And is the part about the seals in the Library significant?

I assumed it was something to do with getting it on with people. Something personal anyway, if it had to do with the seals then it would concern Rand.

[Naggash]

Re Colinda, the channelling wise one..

http://encyclopaedia.../c/colinda.html

 

While reminding myself of some of Min's Viewings, I came across this, which took place just after Rand ( who is resting after struggling with LTT and saidar in LoC49) is thoroughly examined by the Wise Ones Sorilea, Amys, Bair, and Colinda:

 

Once Sorilea and the rest reluctantly concluded that all he needed was rest, and departed ordering him to see that he got it, Min made herself comfortable on his lap again. "They talk in dreams?" she said, shaking her head. "It doesn't seem possible, like something out of a story." A frown creased her forehead. "How old do you think Sorilea is? And that Colinda. I saw - No. No, it doesn't have anything to do with you. Maybe the heat is affecting me. When I know, I always know. It must be the heat."

 

Earlier we meet Colinda in the Royal Library, where she is in a group who are watchng for Nesune, who is interested in the seals (LoC25). Later on she is routing various AS to Verin for questioning. And that's about the last we see of her.

 

So I'm wondering what's going on with Min's Viewing of her. None of her Viewings are insignificant. What exactly did Min see? Was it that Colinda was unbelievably old? Something to do with Dreamwalking? And is the part about the seals in the Library significant?

I assumed it was something to do with getting it on with people. Something personal anyway, if it had to do with the seals then it would concern Rand.

I assumed it was a viewing about Moraine. Maybe a friendship, maybe a 'she will be with Moraine doing somehting' or a 'she will help Moraine'. Something like that.

[FarShainMael]

IMO it's pretty much clear that Rand access TP through his link to Moridin. It was not an intended bait for tempting him. The fact that Semirhage sais 'why have you betrayed me Great Lord' only means that she thought this was the case, not that it was true. It's the same as with 'the fact that the voice is real doesn't make it better'. We know she didn't lie, she didn't have reason for it, but we also know she was wrong. She just believed it.

 

I'm with you on this one.

 

And of course, if it was accidental access via Moridin, and the DO doesn't know, there will be interesting implications.. and, indeed, It might not know. When Graendal uses the TP in ToM Prologue, she thinks to herself:

 

A gift to her from Moridin. No, from the Great Lord. Best not to begin associating those two in her mind. For now, Moridin was Nae'blis.

 

Evidently being Nae'blis hath its priveleges!

 

 

Re Colinda: whatever it is, it's in the context of dreamwalking.. the really off-the-wall thought occurred to me that she might be / be connected to Nakomi....

 

....Nah. Daft.

[GB]

@ anyone? is the new feeling Lan gets in the epilogue from the bond somehow has to do with Moiraine getting out of ToG?

[TristanWebb]

Isn't it the transfer from Myrele to Nyn?

[FarShainMael]

Don't think so, because he thinks to himself 'he could still feel Nynaeve'. I think he does feel the bond being passed earlier, but not sure where. Bit of a hurry now, will look later.

[TristanWebb]

The quote:

 

He had come to attack, to ride for Malkier. Andere rode up beside him on his left, young Kaisel of Kandor on his right. He could feel something, distant, that had given him strength recently. The bond had changed. The emotions had changed.

 

He could still feel Nynaeve, so wonderful, caring, and passionate in the back of his mind. He should have been pained to know that now she would suffer when he died, instead of another. However, that closeness to her—a final closeness—brought him strength.

 

The bond had changed to being Nyn IMO, but the prose isn't quite right, so I could be persuaded otherwise.

[FarShainMael]

Got it. It's in ToM42:

 

Lan could feel something, a distinct difference to the emotions in the back of his head... Lately, those emotions had changed. More and more, he was certain that Nyn had taken his bond. He could clearly identify her by the way she felt.

[TristanWebb]

Yeah, so he could feel the change to Nyn and it gave him strength recently. I think maybe that part might of been written by RJ and shoehorned in. If there had been no reference to the change in the bond it would make more sense.

 

Edit: in regards to the epilogue quote

[Finnssss22]

A little random but I've had the thought of the wolves coming to Lan's rescue rattling around in my head for a while now.

Not really because there has been any foreshadowing to it, more because it just seems like most have forgotten about the 1000's upon 1000's of wolves heading north.

 

Also along this front, we were told we are getting a PoV from an existing character we have never had before and I thought, what about an Elias PoV with the wolves as they arrive to help Lan.

 

Just random thoughts, now back to your regularly scheduled programs.

[GB]

it can happen though Re: the wolves going to rescue Lan.

 

soon enough perrin will know about lan's charge from rand or nynaeve

[Deadsy]

A little random but I've had the thought of the wolves coming to Lan's rescue rattling around in my head for a while now.

Not really because there has been any foreshadowing to it, more because it just seems like most have forgotten about the 1000's upon 1000's of wolves heading north.

it can happen though Re: the wolves going to rescue Lan.

 

soon enough perrin will know about lan's charge from rand or nynaeve

 

Perhaps that would somehow lead to Slayer and Lan having some sort of confrontation.

[Maleshub]

A little random but I've had the thought of the wolves coming to Lan's rescue rattling around in my head for a while now.

Not really because there has been any foreshadowing to it, more because it just seems like most have forgotten about the 1000's upon 1000's of wolves heading north.

it can happen though Re: the wolves going to rescue Lan.

 

soon enough perrin will know about lan's charge from rand or nynaeve

 

Perhaps that would somehow lead to Slayer and Lan having some sort of confrontation.

 

That would be an interesting development! At the end of the Merrilor Conference, Rand sends Perrin to Lan's aid and takes the Aiel and Borderlanders remaining with him to Shayol Ghul!

[Durinax]

A little random but I've had the thought of the wolves coming to Lan's rescue rattling around in my head for a while now.

Not really because there has been any foreshadowing to it, more because it just seems like most have forgotten about the 1000's upon 1000's of wolves heading north.

it can happen though Re: the wolves going to rescue Lan.

 

soon enough perrin will know about lan's charge from rand or nynaeve

 

Perhaps that would somehow lead to Slayer and Lan having some sort of confrontation.

 

That would be an interesting development! At the end of the Merrilor Conference, Rand sends Perrin to Lan's aid and takes the Aiel and Borderlanders remaining with him to Shayol Ghul!

I can't see that happening, the Aiel and Borderland mix will be distributed across the front in order to give a backbone for the entire army, in effect giving an iron core the rest can form around. As I see the Aiel and Borderlanders being the only ones who will not break against the onslaught of when the shadow hordes hit the lights lines

[Stubby]

• Naeff will be killed at the Black Tower impersoanting Rand. This will prompt the break out of the Aes Sedai and Asha'men. The Two Rivers men will use their longbows to take out the sentries.
  
• Logain will kill Taim.
  
• Sylvase will revealed as ShadowSpawn. This will prove that 13x13 means a Shadow Spawn (Fade?) takes over your body and mind. She will be revealed when she cannot see Elayne in the same room with her because Elayne will be wearing the special knife Avienda found amongst the Ebou Dar treasures.
  
• Alliandre will betray the light. She is very selfish. Her POVs make no sense otherwise. I mean why go the trouble is telling us about eavesdropping and taking the sash for herself instead of making bandages with it? Makes me suspect she is a DF. Her horror at taking on a Forsaken seemed...too much like how the BA feel about taking on Forsaken.
  
• Mat will take the Horn to Illian to save it from a massive Shadow Spawn attack. Not sure if the Seanchan will be there in control. Just makes sense that he saves his wife somehow using the Horn. Which means the Seanchan will attack Illian, I guess.
  
• Merrilor has a Portal Stone which Rand will use to transport some of the troops. How many depends on his new strength in the Power.
  
• The Band will rescue Caemlyn but the city will be almost destroyed. Will Mat be there to lead?
  
• Slayer will revealed as the Broken Wolf.
  
• Fortuona will channel to save Mat's life. Mat will become her Warder.
  

[Finnssss22]

A little random but I've had the thought of the wolves coming to Lan's rescue rattling around in my head for a while now.

Not really because there has been any foreshadowing to it, more because it just seems like most have forgotten about the 1000's upon 1000's of wolves heading north.

it can happen though Re: the wolves going to rescue Lan.

 

soon enough perrin will know about lan's charge from rand or nynaeve

 

Perhaps that would somehow lead to Slayer and Lan having some sort of confrontation.

 

That would be an interesting development! At the end of the Merrilor Conference, Rand sends Perrin to Lan's aid and takes the Aiel and Borderlanders remaining with him to Shayol Ghul!

I can't see that happening, the Aiel and Borderland mix will be distributed across the front in order to give a backbone for the entire army, in effect giving an iron core the rest can form around. As I see the Aiel and Borderlanders being the only ones who will not break against the onslaught of when the shadow hordes hit the lights lines

 

I definitely don't see Perrin's army, nor the Seanchan breaking.

And considering Ituralde's last whereabouts, I wouldn't find it at all surprising to see him given cammand of the Tairen forces. Don't see any army of his breaking either.

Same with Bryne and his armies.

[Durinax]

A little random but I've had the thought of the wolves coming to Lan's rescue rattling around in my head for a while now.

Not really because there has been any foreshadowing to it, more because it just seems like most have forgotten about the 1000's upon 1000's of wolves heading north.

it can happen though Re: the wolves going to rescue Lan.

 

soon enough perrin will know about lan's charge from rand or nynaeve

 

Perhaps that would somehow lead to Slayer and Lan having some sort of confrontation.

 

That would be an interesting development! At the end of the Merrilor Conference, Rand sends Perrin to Lan's aid and takes the Aiel and Borderlanders remaining with him to Shayol Ghul!

I can't see that happening, the Aiel and Borderland mix will be distributed across the front in order to give a backbone for the entire army, in effect giving an iron core the rest can form around. As I see the Aiel and Borderlanders being the only ones who will not break against the onslaught of when the shadow hordes hit the lights lines

 

I definitely don't see Perrin's army, nor the Seanchan breaking.

And considering Ituralde's last whereabouts, I wouldn't find it at all surprising to see him given cammand of the Tairen forces. Don't see any army of his breaking either.

Same with Bryne and his armies.

when has bryne had to command against trollocs? Perrins army also wasn't facing a charge of shadowspawn, had high ground, AS, WO, AM support not to mention taveren could have been twisting the odds.

 

as for the Seanchan it will be interesting to see a pov of them during the actual battles, because what I got from Tylees account was that they almost broke apart until the damane started really tearing into the shadowspawn

 

As for ituralde his men lost enough moral that some of his officers commanded a suicide charge, and once the line started to break someone blew the retreat without orders.

A Open Gate

A trumpet sounded retreat.

 

And for further support to my beliefs that the armies of the south are going to shatter against a trolloc horde look at what happened to the WC's if they could have fled they would have instead they had to fight because they where cornered

[Finnssss22]

A little random but I've had the thought of the wolves coming to Lan's rescue rattling around in my head for a while now.

Not really because there has been any foreshadowing to it, more because it just seems like most have forgotten about the 1000's upon 1000's of wolves heading north.

it can happen though Re: the wolves going to rescue Lan.

 

soon enough perrin will know about lan's charge from rand or nynaeve

 

Perhaps that would somehow lead to Slayer and Lan having some sort of confrontation.

 

That would be an interesting development! At the end of the Merrilor Conference, Rand sends Perrin to Lan's aid and takes the Aiel and Borderlanders remaining with him to Shayol Ghul!

I can't see that happening, the Aiel and Borderland mix will be distributed across the front in order to give a backbone for the entire army, in effect giving an iron core the rest can form around. As I see the Aiel and Borderlanders being the only ones who will not break against the onslaught of when the shadow hordes hit the lights lines

 

I definitely don't see Perrin's army, nor the Seanchan breaking.

And considering Ituralde's last whereabouts, I wouldn't find it at all surprising to see him given cammand of the Tairen forces. Don't see any army of his breaking either.

Same with Bryne and his armies.

when has bryne had to command against trollocs? Perrins army also wasn't facing a charge of shadowspawn, had high ground, AS, WO, AM support not to mention taveren could have been twisting the odds.

 

as for the Seanchan it will be interesting to see a pov of them during the actual battles, because what I got from Tylees account was that they almost broke apart until the damane started really tearing into the shadowspawn

 

As for ituralde his men lost enough moral that some of his officers commanded a suicide charge, and once the line started to break someone blew the retreat without orders.

A Open Gate

A trumpet sounded retreat.

 

And for further support to my beliefs that the armies of the south are going to shatter against a trolloc horde look at what happened to the WC's if they could have fled they would have instead they had to fight because they where cornered

 

You can take the early trumpet as a sign of panic if you want but I'm squarely of the opinion that is was a DF's doing.

As for Tylee's group, it was just them getting over the initial shock of what was attacking them. The Seanchan know that Trolloc's are real now and with Mat's imminent arrival with them, I have little doubt he will make sure they are well aware of what they will be facing.

With Perrin's army, I think you're forgetting that this wasn't the first time the main core of it has faced Shadowspawn. Some of them have faced them twice now and beaten them both times. Moral is not an issue, I assure you ;)

I think the fact that Perrin's entire army gave up the high ground and followed him in a headlong charge into the Shadowspawn should answer any questions you have on the subject.

 

Ituralde and his men had never faced Shadowspawn before either and I have no reason believe that Bryne and his men won't be able handle it as well. Especially considering Bryne has Uno and the other Shienarans bolstering his commander ranks, an advantage Ituralde didn't have. No doubt in my mind that they will be well prepared for Shadowspawn.

[Durinax]

oh right I did forget about the fight for the two rivers, but alas with his coalition forces his army did have a spine of hardened troops (being the Aiel, to some degree TR's)

 

I am still maintaining that the bulk of his army (the former refugees and such) are obviously the most brittle and likely to break, in his taveren presence I doubt they will though, I just read through his rescue of the WC's and if he could mount a charge from heights that where dangerous to move down in the dark without any casualties the moral of the men can be effected by the taveren nature too