A Memory of Light Speculation

[Jimvzyl]

The 'Darkness so beautiful' ties in really well with the "Twice dawns the day"

It sets up the theoretical death and resurrection of Rand. Lots of people reckon it will happen after 3 days, but because of these two lines, I feel Rand will die and be resurrected on the same day.

 

To answer you, "Rands blood on the rocks" will most likely coincide with his death. Then whether he is pulled out of T'AR or revived with the power by Nynaeve- I cant really answer. I dont see Rands blood spilling without his death and I dont see people of Rands blood dying in his place (Galad, Perval etc).

[herid]

The 'Darkness so beautiful' ties in really well with the "Twice dawns the day"

It sets up the theoretical death and resurrection of Rand. Lots of people reckon it will happen after 3 days, but because of these two lines, I feel Rand will die and be resurrected on the same day.

 

How do you get from those two quotes that it will happen on the same day? I don't understand the logic. "Twice dawns the day" pretty clearly says that Rand's blood will be spilled on two different days - the first time it will result in his death and "the darkness so beautiful" and the second in "freeing mankind from the Shadow".

[Sid]

I always thought 'twice dawns the day' meant there would be a solar eclipse that coincided with the timing of his death, or apparent death.

[White_star]

Rand brings Tuon before the hall of the White Tower. Tuon can barely keep her countenance in front of so many marath´damane. Egwene gives her a BIG piece of her mind. Tuon stays stubborn. Rand slaps an a´dam on her, giving the leash to Egwene. Tuon breaks down and swears to do everything, just to be free of the a´dam. Rand frees her, she swears fealty to him and agrees to hold the Dragon´s peace after Tarmon Gai´don. Tuon back to her palace, then off to Tarmon Gai´don with the whole Seanchan army.

 

 

Well there is the whole thing about kneeling before the crystal throne and all and that might have been accomplished but just having Mat marry Tuon as for his binding him. I honestly think that the crystal throne is some kind of binding chair and that Rand merely has to channel into it just to bind her to him but as Tuon is now the empress maybe Rand and Mat's children will marry or some such

Rand can't touch the thing safely. No male channeler can. (FoH chp.32)

[Hopefire]

The 'Darkness so beautiful' ties in really well with the "Twice dawns the day"

It sets up the theoretical death and resurrection of Rand. Lots of people reckon it will happen after 3 days, but because of these two lines, I feel Rand will die and be resurrected on the same day.

 

To answer you, "Rands blood on the rocks" will most likely coincide with his death. Then whether he is pulled out of T'AR or revived with the power by Nynaeve- I cant really answer. I dont see Rands blood spilling without his death and I dont see people of Rands blood dying in his place (Galad, Perval etc).

 

My thought is that Rand and co. will strike at Shayol Ghul at dawn; as the battle continues, the Dark One will be ripping free, and will plunge the world into night. When Rand's blood is shed, the Dark One will be resealed, and nature will take its proper course, resulting in a second apparent sunrise.

[Smiley73]

or maybe it will be from a snag in the pattern (like in Hinderstap), after the DO is resealed, sort of the pattern trying to return back to normality

[herid]

I always thought 'twice dawns the day' meant there would be a solar eclipse that coincided with the timing of his death, or apparent death.

 

 

 

My thought is that Rand and co. will strike at Shayol Ghul at dawn; as the battle continues, the Dark One will be ripping free, and will plunge the world into night. When Rand's blood is shed, the Dark One will be resealed, and nature will take its proper course, resulting in a second apparent sunrise.

 

I just can't see something like this fitting the prophecy satisfactorily. IMO, neither option would qualify as "twice dawns the day". Perhaps I'm being too literal but so far I can only think of two options that would really fit it:

1. a physically impossible event like the sun actually going back and then rising again (this can be quite safely discounted, I'm sure) or

2. the prophecy simply speaks of two different days on which Rand's blood will be shed.

[Jimvzyl]

Im sorry let me clarify.

 

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed"

- I see this as meaning - On the day that Rand's blood is shed, the day shall dawn twice"

 

"and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful"

 

Meaning that Rand will die and the DO, or Rands absence will plunge the land into Darkness. ("The Dragon is one with the land").

Natural Phenomenon occur throughout the series, I hardly think its any less possible than a neverending summer or the scene in Apples First.

 

And it sets up either a TAR pull resurrect or miraculous healing by Nynaeve or the body-swap or one of any number of "die yet live" theories - as upon his return he will be "one with the land" again and the darkness will recede- allowing the day to (visually) dawn twice.

 

 

Just a note Herid - I don't know if I could convince myself that "Twice dawns the day that his blood is shed" as meaning 2 different days. Its hardly a prophecy at all then . Just a natural occuring event that any day on which Rand bleeds, the day will have dawned. Or is this a mis-interpretation of the line again?

[Smiley73]

Can we take the dark prophecies to be true prophecies does anyone know of a number of dark prophecies that have come true? and my opinion on twice dawns the day is that on two separate days Rand's blood shall be shed. thought we can only speculate until Amol does come out

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

1. a physically impossible event like the sun actually going back and then rising again (this can be quite safely discounted, I'm sure) or

 

 

this would be possible with balefire. or, as mentioned, with an eclipse. or, on Sunday, or Thanksgiving, which are technically not days of the calendar, and sort of out of time. so if two days were marked out of time for some reason, Sunday or Thanksgiving could dawn twice.

 

the line always makes me think of the biblical thing where the sun and moon stand still (the sun in givon and the moon in the valley of ayalon, sorry, not sure how to spell those in english). not time going backwards, but time standing still. so i don't see it as that much of a stretch for the wheel wobble and roll back a bit. weirder things have happened.

 

 

 

edit - i just saw how long this thread is, and i realize someone has probably said all of this more than once. sorry, please ignore then.

[Sundance Kid]

Any thoughts on how Perrin will die as per the Dark Prophecy and the end of book 13?

 

He's got to get the Broken Crown of Saldaea first, as per Min's viewing in TEotW15.

 

I have no idea on how he would die but I think he will go to the wolf dream/TAR when he dies. I would not be surprised if an important part of the last battle takes place there, and that's where Perrin is really badass.

[Smiley73]

@Sundance Perrin is badass in T'A'R. Amen

 

The problem I have with T'A'R is that the Dark side is so untrained in it, literally only the forsaken have any proper knowledge about it. No smart dreadlord/leader would try and best the Light in T'A'R, I mean the dark side defeats in T'A'R include: Slayer, Moghedien, Rahvin, the Black Sisters who stole the ter'angreal, so I am doubtlful that there will actually be a clash there in the LB unless someone figures out how to transport men, on a massive scale, from the real world to T'A'R.

 

As for Rand being brought back "Birgitte style" from T'A'R, it depends on whether the dragon is a hero of the horn. who knows its obscure enough to be a means for this to happen and still be a surprise but it lacks the sort of amazement factor, if Rand comes back I want something stupendous.

[Finnssss22]

@Sundance Perrin is badass in T'A'R. Amen

 

The problem I have with T'A'R is that the Dark side is so untrained in it, literally only the forsaken have any proper knowledge about it. No smart dreadlord/leader would try and best the Light in T'A'R, I mean the dark side defeats in T'A'R include: Slayer, Moghedien, Rahvin, the Black Sisters who stole the ter'angreal, so I am doubtlful that there will actually be a clash there in the LB unless someone figures out how to transport men, on a massive scale, from the real world to T'A'R.

 

As for Rand being brought back "Birgitte style" from T'A'R, it depends on whether the dragon is a hero of the horn. who knows its obscure enough to be a means for this to happen and still be a surprise but it lacks the sort of amazement factor, if Rand comes back I want something stupendous.

 

 

I'd hardly say Slayer is untrained. Lets face facts here, he not only kicked Perrin's ass but killed most of the wolves helping him at the same time.

It was only luck/ta'vereness and Slayer's overconfidence that ultimately led to Perrin accomplishing his goal. Which I might add, once completed, he had to run away or be killed.

[Smiley73]

but Slayer still lost, he was probably the most adept dreamwalker that the darkside had (barring the forsaken), the darkside would be stupid to try and take on the Lights army of dreamwalkers (Perrin and his wolves, the Aiel Dreamwalkers, Egwene, Nyneave, possibly Elayne)

[herid]

Im sorry let me clarify.

 

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed"

- I see this as meaning - On the day that Rand's blood is shed, the day shall dawn twice"

 

"and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful"

 

Meaning that Rand will die and the DO, or Rands absence will plunge the land into Darkness. ("The Dragon is one with the land").

Natural Phenomenon occur throughout the series, I hardly think its any less possible than a neverending summer or the scene in Apples First.

 

And it sets up either a TAR pull resurrect or miraculous healing by Nynaeve or the body-swap or one of any number of "die yet live" theories - as upon his return he will be "one with the land" again and the darkness will recede- allowing the day to (visually) dawn twice.

 

 

Just a note Herid - I don't know if I could convince myself that "Twice dawns the day that his blood is shed" as meaning 2 different days. Its hardly a prophecy at all then . Just a natural occuring event that any day on which Rand bleeds, the day will have dawned. Or is this a mis-interpretation of the line again?

well, I see nothing wrong with that. It simply speaks of very important occasions for when Rand's blood is spilled. I consider this much more likely and reasonable than they other explanations I've seen which imply the very same day.

 

1. a physically impossible event like the sun actually going back and then rising again (this can be quite safely discounted, I'm sure) or

 

 

this would be possible with balefire.

balefire? how would that count for a day dawning twice? balefire is not a time machine. I don't see how that can possibly qualify.

or, as mentioned, with an eclipse.

as I said, I don't see that as fitting "twice dawns the day".

or, on Sunday, or Thanksgiving, which are technically not days of the calendar, and sort of out of time. so if two days were marked out of time for some reason, Sunday or Thanksgiving could dawn twice.

that doesn't work at all. the names given to days in calendar are meaningless for this prophecy. you can call every day of the year Thanksgiving and it won't mean that it's the same day tomorrow as it is today.

 

the line always makes me think of the biblical thing where the sun and moon stand still (the sun in givon and the moon in the valley of ayalon, sorry, not sure how to spell those in english). not time going backwards, but time standing still. so i don't see it as that much of a stretch for the wheel wobble and roll back a bit. weirder things have happened.

Hmm, I'm aware of biblical references but I haven't thought of it in terms of the whole Wheel wobbling. That would mean time itself stopping and turning back a bit. Possibly something like that might be in the works although it does sound pretty far fetched to me. When I mentioned a physically impossible event I meant something like the Earth reversing its rotation for a short time.

I'm sure RJ as a former physicist would never go for something like that.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

well, our brains are organized so differently as to make a mutual understanding very unlikely. so i'll skip most of it. just have to say that physics maven or no, RJ set up a magical universe in which the physically impossible happens all the time. he also used many biblical bits and pieces, and time standing still would have been a known concept to him.

 

i also presume he saw that superman movie. . .

 

i won't try to convince you of anything, though. we'll know soon enough.

[herid]

well, our brains are organized so differently as to make a mutual understanding very unlikely. so i'll skip most of it. just have to say that physics maven or no, RJ set up a magical universe in which the physically impossible happens all the time. he also used many biblical bits and pieces, and time standing still would have been a known concept to him.

 

i also presume he saw that superman movie. . .

 

i won't try to convince you of anything, though. we'll know soon enough.

why not? you actually did give one scenario which I did not consider and which I find at least somewhat plausible - that of the whole wheel wobbling on its axis because of something the DO does, perhaps. however unlikely I may think it, this would be something consistent with the rules of the universe as RJ set it up. and as it would not have a counterpart in real world, it would be hard to object to it on the grounds of it being physically impossible. But otherwise RJ set up a world which follows pretty strict rules and doesn't involve anything totally crazy from the real world physics point of view. as a scientist myself I've always liked that. But that is also why I find something like reversing Earth's rotation for a time so objectionable. In real world the energy involved would vaporize all the oceans and kill off all the life on Earth down to bacteria 100 times over and RJ would know it. So I'm hoping that this is not in the cards.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

the "why" is that arguing hurts my brain and my hands with all the typing, and it's pointless to me. i don't really have more to say about this one, and i don't want to just keep repeating the same thing with slightly different phrasing.

 

it's totally fine with me not to convince anyone of anything. anyway, "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still." so even if i could get someone to say he agreed with something that he really didn't agree with, because he was tired of the argument, or couldn't make a logical rebuttal, or whatever, it wouldn't matter. he'd still think what he thinks. that's fine. i just wanted to put my two cents in, and they're in, and i'm satisfied.

[Smiley73]

seems we've exhausted this topic...

so what about the Great Stump?

I think we are going to go back to that before TG starts and I'm really hoping that the Ogier stay to fight, not to mention those Ogier Gardeners the Seanchan have might get pretty pissed

[noynaert@gmail.com]

>>twice dawns the day

 

A very mundane explanation might be a battle that lasts two days, or at least extends through two dawns. Something is tickling at my memory about this actually happening during a battle in real life and people calling it the day with two dawns.

 

Another possibility would be seeing a sunrise and then traveling through a gateway to some point to the west or to a different elevation in a mountainous area and seeing a second sunrise. If the prophesy only applies to Rand, then the prophesy would be fulfilled if Rand saw the second sunrise. Presumably he would have someone with him to be a witness, sort of like what Perrin did on Dragonmount.

 

I am not saying that either of these will happen, but I think they are possible interpretations.

[Sharaman]

>>twice dawns the day

 

A very mundane explanation might be a battle that lasts two days, or at least extends through two dawns. Something is tickling at my memory about this actually happening during a battle in real life and people calling it the day with two dawns.

 

Another possibility would be seeing a sunrise and then traveling through a gateway to some point to the west or to a different elevation in a mountainous area and seeing a second sunrise. If the prophesy only applies to Rand, then the prophesy would be fulfilled if Rand saw the second sunrise. Presumably he would have someone with him to be a witness, sort of like what Perrin did on Dragonmount.

 

I am not saying that either of these will happen, but I think they are possible interpretations.

 

The Far Snows (tFoH) and the other mentions of jet-lag type situations (Graendal deep in the Blightand fooled by the red stone) are foreshadowings indeed, of a battle that might shift through time zones or, maybe in and out of TAR - sunlight -eternal twilight into sunlight/ back again/ etc.

Possible interpretations that could fly, along with the eclipse theories.

[SylviaDoreen]

There is no way of answering it, but would a 600 year long life really be better than 300 years ? After all there is no indication that time passes more slowly for AS than for anyone else. Especially when you see your friends and loved ones change, reach different stages of their lives, and yes, eventually happily pass on while you remain as you are, forever (agesslessly) 20isly years old. At first blush it may sound awesome, but is it really ? Can you imagine the loneliness ?

You reminded me of, and led me to quote Alphaville, Forever Young;

Forever young

I want to be forever young

Do you really want to live forever?

Forever young

 

Rereading some posts..to answer this one though?

Hell yah I'd love to be young forever. I've already lost quite a few love ones. I expect to lose more before I avoid kicking the bucker.

 

I say gimme it now! lol.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

your answer might change in a few more years. mine did. life is both very long and very short, in the strangest ways. i don't need to lose any more loved ones.

[Hopefire]

Random off-the-wall speculation:

 

-Birgitte and Rand will both die in the Last Battle. Birgitte will die with sword in hand, saving Elayne. She'll blame her death on the sword, as has been foreshadowed with her comments about her and swords.

 

-Finding Moridin's body, with Moridin's soul gone but the body still alive, Nynaeve will hatch upon an idea to bring Rand back. She sends Elayne, Min and Aviendha into TAR to collect Rand.

 

-They sail across a river to the place where the heroes of legend wait between incarnations.

 

-Birgitte has a good-bye scene with Elayne, and assures her that she'll still be spun out as she has been for countless turnings of the Wheel. She tells Elayne that she expects that she'll be reborn soon.

 

-Rand comes back with the girls, and takes up Moridin's body.

 

-Some time not so long afterwards, Chiad becomes pregnant, and not so long after that she gives birth to a beautiful golden haired baby...

[Guest Detn8eod]

Has anyone taken in consideration that the "death" of the Dragon may be something as simple as taking the story from Harry Potter. Lews Therrin and Rand are two beings sharing one body. At the last battle Lews Therrin sacrifieces his "life" to stop the Dark One, with the help of Alivia as it is said she will help him die. Then Tada!!!! Rand stands back up and says HOLY CRAP! I'm alive!